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Who is the #19 best basketball player of all-time? (1 Viewer)

Who is #19?

  • Charles Barkley

    Votes: 24 41.4%
  • Kevin Garnett

    Votes: 10 17.2%
  • Nikola Jokic

    Votes: 6 10.3%
  • Elgin Baylor

    Votes: 4 6.9%
  • Giannis Antetokounmpo

    Votes: 5 8.6%
  • Dirk Nowitzki

    Votes: 4 6.9%
  • Karl Malone

    Votes: 2 3.4%
  • John Stockton

    Votes: 3 5.2%
  • John Havlicek

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other (please list)

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    58

Frostillicus

Bad Manager
1. Michael Jordan (71%)
2. Lebron james (85%).
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (34%).
4. Wilt Chamberlain (31%).
5. Magic Johnson (33%).
6. Larry Bird (44%).
7. Bill Russell (67%).
8. Shaquille O'Neal (31%)
9. Tim Duncan (53%).
10. Hakeem Olajuwon (36%).
11. Kobe Bryant (37%).
12. Oscar Robertson (49%).
13. Stephen Curry (74%).
14. Julius Erving (37%).
15. Moses Malone (38%).
16. Kevin Durant (38%).
17. David Robinson (41%).
18. Jerry West (37%)
19. ????????????
 
Okay, thinking it's about time to nominate KG and so I'll tell my personal story about him that cemented him as my favorite basketball player forever.

I attended a small liberal arts college in MN in the first half of the 2000s. During that time, the Timberwolves did their preseason camp there and timed it for what I assume was our fall break (because the campus was basically empty except for student athletes and those of us from out of state who didn't go home). While I wasn't on the basketball team, my roommate was and I was good friends with a lot of the guys from pick up or whatever. The college team effectively worked as security for the closed practices and the school's gym windows were generally blocked from public view. This is important to note because it meant that the practices were effectively closed to the outside world but for the Timberwolves employees and a few of us associated with the college basketball team that got to sit in and watch (provided we didn't interrupt anything).

Now, again, these were closed practices and the camp before the actual preseason or whatever even started - so no fans, media, etc. So, a lot of the regular players (Sprewell, Terrell Brandon, Cassell, Joe Smith, Wally, etc.) who didn't have to really make the team utilized the practices to rehab their bodies or work on particular skills or whatever. To be clear, the players weren't screwing around and put in their respective work, but it was pretty clear that most of the guys approached the camp as a necessary evil and did their work and counted their days until they could go back down to the cities and their homes. Put it this way, Iverson would have not tried very hard.

But KG? In this preseason camp, with nobody looking, his spot obviously secure, and really nobody at all to impress, KG still took on each moment like it was game 7 of the NBA finals. With Flip Saunders usually off working individually with some guys or milling around with coaches, KG ran the practices himself with sheer intensity. Particularly, he tried his best with Ndudi Ibi (who just wasn't ready to be there, frankly, and was terrible - I even watched him air ball a layup to KG's utter dismay) and spent much of the time working with him. There was obviously mutual respect with him and guys like Cassell (who, bizarrely practiced in sweatpants), Sprewell (fun dude), Mark Madsen (dude had a serious energy level) and Wally (aloof but **** he could shoot) but it was abundantly clear who ran this team and it wasn't Flip or McHale. After practice the players would use our weight room (which was still open to us students) so I timed it each time to lift at the same times and KG was just as intense in the weight room with nobody watching (though I distinctly recall his dumbell curl form being terrible). And, thereafter, when most of the other players would throw on hoodies and get out of there as quickly as they could to the team vans, KG would go outside and, even though he totally didn't have to, sign some autographs for the locals who knew of the practices and give up 15 minutes of his day to do so when he didn't have to at all.

I have had the opportunity to encounter a good number of other professional athletes - whether in their sport or on the golf course - and never met any one who sniffed at KG's drive, intensity, and sheer love for what he was doing. Still impresses the hell out of me to this day because, after all, we be talking about just a [closed] practice. And, for that reason, he gets my biased nod for being a top 20 guy of all-time and not even @SWC can hold me back on this one.
 
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Answered where it was asked in the #18 thread, but putting it here too so hopefully we have more arguments:

People have Stockton ahead of Nash because.........
Probably because Stockton is the all-time leader in assists (Nash is #5), the all-time leader in assist pct (Nash is #7), the all-time leader in steals (Nash is #235 - tied with Robert Covington), and #2 in assists per game (Nash is #9), and #5 in steals per game. He also is a 10x All-Star (Nash 8 times) and was All-Nba 11 times (Nash 7x) and All-Defense 5x to zero. Stockton led the league in assists 9 times to 5 for Nash and also won 2 steals titles.

Nash does have the two MVPs but Stockton's Offensive Rating in his best year was better than either of Nash's MVP years and Stockton played defense.

So that's probably why.
 
Answered where it was asked in the #18 thread, but putting it here too so hopefully we have more arguments:

People have Stockton ahead of Nash because.........
Probably because Stockton is the all-time leader in assists (Nash is #5), the all-time leader in assist pct (Nash is #7), the all-time leader in steals (Nash is #235 - tied with Robert Covington), and #2 in assists per game (Nash is #9), and #5 in steals per game. He also is a 10x All-Star (Nash 8 times) and was All-Nba 11 times (Nash 7x) and All-Defense 5x to zero. Stockton led the league in assists 9 times to 5 for Nash and also won 2 steals titles.

Nash does have the two MVPs but Stockton's Offensive Rating in his best year was better than either of Nash's MVP years and Stockton played defense.

So that's probably why.
i liked them both whatyagonnado take that to the bank brohans
 
Okay, thinking it's about time to nominate KG and so I'll tell my personal story about him that cemented him as my favorite basketball player forever.

I attended a small liberal arts college in MN in the early 2000s. During that time, the Timberwolves did their preseason camp there and timed it for what I assume was our fall break (because the campus was basically empty except for student athletes and those of us from out of state who didn't go home). While I wasn't on the basketball team, my roommate was and I was good friends with a lot of the guys from pick up or whatever. The college team effectively worked as security for the closed practices and the school's gym windows were generally blocked from public view. This is important to note because it meant that the practices were effectively closed to the outside world but for the Timberwolves employees and a few of us associated with the college basketball team that got to sit in and watch (provided we didn't interrupt anything).

Now, again, these were closed practices and the camp before the actual preseason or whatever even started - so no fans, media, etc. So, a lot of the regular players (Sprewell, Terrell Brandon, Cassell, Joe Smith, Wally, etc.) who didn't have to really make the team utilized the practices to rehab their bodies or work on particular skills or whatever. To be clear, the players weren't screwing around and put in their respective work, but it was pretty clear that most of the guys approached the camp as a necessary evil and did their work and counted their days until they could go back down to the cities and their homes. Put it this way, Iverson would have not tried very hard.

But KG? In this preseason camp, with nobody looking, his spot obviously secure, and really nobody at all to impress, KG still took on each moment like it was game 7 of the NBA finals. With Flip Saunders usually off working individually with some guys or milling around with coaches, KG ran the practices himself with sheer intensity. Particularly, he tried his best with Ndudi Ibi (who just wasn't ready to be there, frankly, and was terrible - I even watched him air ball a layup to KG's utter dismay) and spent much of the time working with him. There was obviously mutual respect with him and guys like Cassell (who, bizarrely practiced in sweatpants), Sprewell (fun dude), Mark Madsen (dude had a serious energy level) and Wally (aloof but **** he could shoot) but it was abundantly clear who ran this team and it wasn't Flip or McHale. After practice the players would use our weight room (which was still open to us students) so I timed it each time to lift at the same times and KG was just as intense in the weight room with nobody watching (though I distinctly recall his dumbell curl form being terrible). And, thereafter, when most of the other players would throw on hoodies and get out of there as quickly as they could to the team vans, KG would go outside and, even though he totally didn't have to, sign some autographs for the locals who knew of the practices and give up 15 minutes of his day to do so when he didn't have to at all.

I have had the opportunity to encounter a good number of other professional athletes - whether in their sport or on the golf course - and never met any one who sniffed at KG's drive, intensity, and sheer love for what he was doing. Still impresses the hell out of me to this day because, after all, we be talking about just a [closed] practice. And, for that reason, he gets my biased nod for being a top 20 guy of all-time and not even @SWC can hold me back on this one.
thanks for posting and great story but he was still a hold me back bro and it is even more disappointing in his case because he didnt need to resort to that type of crap to be great but he still did it take that to the bank brohan
 
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Nash is so overrated IMO. I would have to really look at it, but I doubt he would crack my top 75 all time and he isn't a top 10 point guard of all time. I would take Jason Kidd over Nash.
 
Answered where it was asked in the #18 thread, but putting it here too so hopefully we have more arguments:

People have Stockton ahead of Nash because.........
Probably because Stockton is the all-time leader in assists (Nash is #5), the all-time leader in assist pct (Nash is #7), the all-time leader in steals (Nash is #235 - tied with Robert Covington), and #2 in assists per game (Nash is #9), and #5 in steals per game. He also is a 10x All-Star (Nash 8 times) and was All-Nba 11 times (Nash 7x) and All-Defense 5x to zero. Stockton led the league in assists 9 times to 5 for Nash and also won 2 steals titles.

Nash does have the two MVPs but Stockton's Offensive Rating in his best year was better than either of Nash's MVP years and Stockton played defense.

So that's probably why.

I feel like Nash's first MVP was a split vote without a true dominant player that year. Then the next year Nash had a dominant year and had to be MVP. He then ended up with back to back MVPs.

MVPs seem tricky with the voter fatigue. Giannis could only win 2 in a row, Jordan and LeBron could only win so many in a row.
 
I feel like Karl Malone is getting held back because he's a pedophile and a bad person. When he and Barkley were both playing there wasn't a person on the planet who thought Barkley was a better player.

That being said KG is the guy because he has an argument over Malone and wasn't a pedophile.
 
I feel like Karl Malone is getting held back because he's a pedophile and a bad person. When he and Barkley were both playing there wasn't a person on the planet who thought Barkley was a better player.

That being said KG is the guy because he has an argument over Malone and wasn't a pedophile.
A pedophile AND rapist.
 
I feel like Karl Malone is getting held back because he's a pedophile and a bad person. When he and Barkley were both playing there wasn't a person on the planet who thought Barkley was a better player.

That being said KG is the guy because he has an argument over Malone and wasn't a pedophile.
A pedophile AND rapist.
He’s not by definition a pedophile. He’d be a hebephile.
 
I feel like Karl Malone is getting held back because he's a pedophile and a bad person. When he and Barkley were both playing there wasn't a person on the planet who thought Barkley was a better player.

That being said KG is the guy because he has an argument over Malone and wasn't a pedophile.
You’re right Malone is getting held back here for off court reasons but you’re wrong about no one thinking Sir Charles was better.
 
Nash is so overrated IMO. I would have to really look at it, but I doubt he would crack my top 75 all time and he isn't a top 10 point guard of all time. I would take Jason Kidd over Nash.
This might be going too far, but I tend to agree with the sentiment. Nash had an amazing couple of offensive years (and even that statement undersells them) but he was a truly horrific defensive player most of his career.
 
I feel like Karl Malone is getting held back because he's a pedophile and a bad person. When he and Barkley were both playing there wasn't a person on the planet who thought Barkley was a better player.
Up through 1993, Barkley was the superior player and it wasn't really close.

In 92-93, he was named MVP after being the 2nd best player on the Dream Team and led the Suns to the Finals. He and Malone had been the 1st team All-NBA forwards for 3 seasons, but Charles had outperformed Malone to that point in their careers. They are only a few months apart in age, but Charles was drafted a year earlier than Malone.

Also, Barkley didn't play his entire career getting passes from Stockton.
 
I know Steve Nash sucks defensively and never made it to an NBA Finals and those two things are related. But it's hard to overstate how good he was on offense statistically.

In 05-06 and 06-07, Nash led the NBA in TS% and assists. That's an insane combo. He shot a lot, was near the bottom of the league in percentage of field goals assisted, and was still the most efficient scorer.
 
It seems we may be in the PF debate.
Is it nuts to think Dirk might've been better than Barkley, Malone, and Garnett?

In the 90's, Dallas as an absolute dumpster fire. Then they drafted Dirk. He ripped off 11-straight 50 win seasons in the West in the prime of Duncan and Kobe.

He was gonna be one of the ones where we had place him amongst the great PF's that never won a title.
But then he beat the Miami dream team with Jason Terry as his 2nd best player.
 
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im really grappling with where anteaternintendo fits into this or if it is too early to start arguing about him versus kg for instance take that to the bank brohans
 
I feel like Karl Malone is getting held back because he's a pedophile and a bad person. When he and Barkley were both playing there wasn't a person on the planet who thought Barkley was a better player.
Up through 1993, Barkley was the superior player and it wasn't really close.

In 92-93, he was named MVP after being the 2nd best player on the Dream Team and led the Suns to the Finals. He and Malone had been the 1st team All-NBA forwards for 3 seasons, but Charles had outperformed Malone to that point in their careers. They are only a few months apart in age, but Charles was drafted a year earlier than Malone.

Also, Barkley didn't play his entire career getting passes from Stockton.
Malone made Stockton, not the other way around. And so many of those assists were home cooking.
 
I voted Giannis here in anticipation he has several more years of elite production. Wouldn't fault anybody for voting Baylor or Garnett.

Chuck was great for his era, but I would argue less effective in today's game. In no universe is Chuck ahead of Baylor.
 
I voted Giannis here in anticipation he has several more years of elite production. Wouldn't fault anybody for voting Baylor or Garnett.

Chuck was great for his era, but I would argue less effective in today's game. In no universe is Chuck ahead of Baylor.
You think the late 80's through 90's was a less competitive era than the 1960's?

Barkley played against 10 of the guys already on this list and won an MVP. Baylor played against 4 of them and earned zero MVP's.
 
I feel like Karl Malone is getting held back because he's a pedophile and a bad person. When he and Barkley were both playing there wasn't a person on the planet who thought Barkley was a better player.

That being said KG is the guy because he has an argument over Malone and wasn't a pedophile.

I can't separate the person from the player. I am a huge Piston fan and Isaiah Thomas is our best player ever and he should be knocked down a few pegs because of the things that happened when he ran the Knicks.

Personally I would never knock a player that liked to party it up, sleep around, and things like that, but when you get into things that a person should be in prison for or ruining other people's livelihood to cover things up then it crosses my imaginary line.
 
I feel like Karl Malone is getting held back because he's a pedophile and a bad person. When he and Barkley were both playing there wasn't a person on the planet who thought Barkley was a better player.

That being said KG is the guy because he has an argument over Malone and wasn't a pedophile.

I can't separate the person from the player. I am a huge Piston fan and Isaiah Thomas is our best player ever and he should be knocked down a few pegs because of the things that happened when he ran the Knicks.

Personally I would never knock a player that liked to party it up, sleep around, and things like that, but when you get into things that a person should be in prison for or ruining other people's livelihood to cover things up then it crosses my imaginary line.
yeah and he didnt shake the bulls hand either take that to the bank bromigo
 
I voted Giannis here in anticipation he has several more years of elite production. Wouldn't fault anybody for voting Baylor or Garnett.

Chuck was great for his era, but I would argue less effective in today's game. In no universe is Chuck ahead of Baylor.
You think the late 80's through 90's was a less competitive era than the 1960's?

Barkley played against 10 of the guys already on this list and won an MVP. Baylor played against 4 of them and earned zero MVP's.

And Steve Nash never played defense against quite a few of them, but here we are.
 
for me if the number one guy on the list mike doesnt want you on his team then you dont get on the team and that is the team of the top 5000 players in nba history you just have to be all creepy and disgruntled on the nba channel forever take that the bank brohans
 
I feel like Karl Malone is getting held back because he's a pedophile and a bad person. When he and Barkley were both playing there wasn't a person on the planet who thought Barkley was a better player.

That being said KG is the guy because he has an argument over Malone and wasn't a pedophile.

I can't separate the person from the player. I am a huge Piston fan and Isaiah Thomas is our best player ever and he should be knocked down a few pegs because of the things that happened when he ran the Knicks.

Personally I would never knock a player that liked to party it up, sleep around, and things like that, but when you get into things that a person should be in prison for or ruining other people's livelihood to cover things up then it crosses my imaginary line.
yeah and he didnt shake the bulls hand either take that to the bank bromigo

While true, I don't think it is a big deal. It happened before the bad boy Pistons and after. Jordan made it a big deal because that is who he is.
 
You think the late 80's through 90's was a less competitive era than the 1960's?

I think Elgin could have played in any era.

Barkley much less effective in today's game.
Zion is way effective in today's game. Barkley was the original, and healthy Zion

That is why I hate these lists. People act like these all time greats wouldn't adapt to the era they were playing in. I guarantee Barkley, Jordan etc would have been better 3 point shooter if they played today and guys like Curry, Durant, LeBron etc would have been fine in the 80's with hand checking and all the other crap.
 
I feel like Karl Malone is getting held back because he's a pedophile and a bad person. When he and Barkley were both playing there wasn't a person on the planet who thought Barkley was a better player.
Up through 1993, Barkley was the superior player and it wasn't really close.

In 92-93, he was named MVP after being the 2nd best player on the Dream Team and led the Suns to the Finals. He and Malone had been the 1st team All-NBA forwards for 3 seasons, but Charles had outperformed Malone to that point in their careers. They are only a few months apart in age, but Charles was drafted a year earlier than Malone.

Also, Barkley didn't play his entire career getting passes from Stockton.
I mean Malone was all NBA first team 11 times to 5 for Barkley. At the time he was considered better by those awards. When they both retired Malone was pretty much the #1 all time PF on every list until Duncan. At the time Barkley was rated the worst defender in the league on a few of those player votes. Malone never was.

I'm cool with it because Malone is a bad person. But he has always been a better career player than Barkley.
 

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