Who is the #16 best basketball player of all-time? (1 Viewer)

[Frostillicus]

1. Michael Jordan (71%)
2. Lebron james (85%).
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (34%).
4. Wilt Chamberlain (31%).
5. Magic Johnson (33%).
6. Larry Bird (44%).
7. Bill Russell (67%).
8. Shaquille O'Neal (31%)
9. Tim Duncan (53%).
10. Hakeem Olajuwon (36%).
11. Kobe Bryant (37%).
12. Oscar Robertson (49%).
13. Stephen Curry (74%).
14. Julius Erving (37%).
15. Moses Malone (38%).
16. ???????????? (first to 25 votes wins)

 

[nirad3]

Torn between Sir Charles, The Admiral and KD. Since I voted for him last round I'll stick with Chuck until he gets his spot.

 

[HellToupee]

I’ve come around on Sir Charles over Durant

 

[Kev4029]

@Frostillicus How dare you put Giannis in front of Joker.

I think it's a close group between Durant, Barkley, West, Robinson, and Malone. Beyond that, Jokic, Giannis, Baylor, Garnett, and Dirk are all in a little semi-tier before the next group of the Stockton, Nash, Pippen types.

I'm going Jerry West - he was a modern day combo guard that could do it all - he was a great shooter, had great handles, was a great passer, was probably the best defensive guard of his day that also impacted the game offensively. In these all-time great conversations, he gets knocked for his lack of titles (1) and MVPs (0) but he made the finals 9 times and finished second in MVP voting 4 times (and also has the most MVP award shares of any non-winner). The only players EVER with more First Team All-NBA teams (10) are Karl Malone, Kobe Bryant, and Lebron James - he was a type of player (athletic, great shooting & scoring ability, defensive prowess) that has hardly existed in the history of the NBA and his combination of skills can only be exceeded by Jordan and Kobe.

 

[Kev4029]

Also, for whatever it is worth, Bill Simmons has him #12 in his 16 player pantheon. The other 15 players in his pantheon are the 15 we have selected ahead of West so far.

 

[Jayrod]

Things are pretty tight in this tier.

I like Robinson's resume best. I'm a big advanced stats guy and he jumps off the page there, plus has nearly all of the accolades. Only thing he is really missing is a Finals MVP.

Can't blame anyone for going Barkley, West or KD here. I think the others guys have weaker arguments over any of those four.

 

[Frostillicus]

@Frostillicus How dare you put Giannis in front of Joker.

I think it's a close group between Durant, Barkley, West, Robinson, and Malone. Beyond that, Jokic, Giannis, Baylor, Garnett, and Dirk are all in a little semi-tier before the next group of the Stockton, Nash, Pippen types.

I'm going Jerry West - he was a modern day combo guard that could do it all - he was a great shooter, had great handles, was a great passer, was probably the best defensive guard of his day that also impacted the game offensively. In these all-time great conversations, he gets knocked for his lack of titles (1) and MVPs (0) but he made the finals 9 times and finished second in MVP voting 4 times (and also has the most MVP award shares of any non-winner). The only players EVER with more First Team All-NBA teams (10) are Karl Malone, Kobe Bryant, and Lebron James - he was a type of player (athletic, great shooting & scoring ability, defensive prowess) that has hardly existed in the history of the NBA and his combination of skills can only be exceeded by Jordan and Kobe.

Longevity and defense. I have no idea where to put Jokic.

 

[Yo Mama]

Voting for Baylor. Played the game in a way that hadn’t been done yet. 10x all-nba, 11xall-star. In his 4 year peak from 59-63, he averaged 34/17/5, for his career he averaged 27/14/4.

Chick Hearn (who saw a lot of the all-time greats) called him the best player he ever saw.

 

[the moops]

Jokic better be on this next one

 

[AAABatteries]

I'll reiterate that Robinson is #2 all-time (behind Jordan) on WS/48 - not the be all, end all but he has the other stats and championships to go with it. Imagine if he didn't start his NBA career at 24. Add 2-4 more quality years to his numbers and he looks even better.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

It makes me nauseous that Karl Malone is even on the list of choices at this point.

 

[Zow]

It makes me nauseous that Karl Malone is even on the list of choices at this point.

His stats clearly put him in the conversation.

 

[Zow]

Also, for whatever it is worth, Bill Simmons has him #12 in his 16 player pantheon. The other 15 players in his pantheon are the 15 we have selected ahead of West so far.

Careful, I got attacked pretty had for making a similar argument for Kobe.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

It makes me nauseous that Karl Malone is even on the list of choices at this point.

His stats clearly put him in the conversation.

Great example of why stats aren’t everything.

 

[TripItUp]

Durant please, sigh

(this list owes several players an apology)

 

[TripItUp]

The best argument for Malone is all of his hardware.

That being said, Durant is signficantly better IMHO.

 

[Zow]

It makes me nauseous that Karl Malone is even on the list of choices at this point.

His stats clearly put him in the conversation.

Great example of why stats aren’t everything.

Right. I didn't say he should win (I voted Durant and can see arguments for West and Robinson). But, given his stats, his inclusion into the conversation shouldn't make you nauseous.

 

[Kev4029]

Also, for whatever it is worth, Bill Simmons has him #12 in his 16 player pantheon. The other 15 players in his pantheon are the 15 we have selected ahead of West so far.

Careful, I got attacked pretty had for making a similar argument for Kobe.

I dont put a huge amount of stock in Bill Simmons' opinions generally, but I think he did as much research, talking with the experts, and thinking about this exact topic than probably anybody else ever. So I don't take his opinion as gospel, or anywhere near it, but I do think he is a legitimate expert on the topic and his opinion does matter to me. His book of basketball is one of the most fun non-fiction reads I've ever had.

 

[Kev4029]

It makes me nauseous that Karl Malone is even on the list of choices at this point.

His stats clearly put him in the conversation.

Great example of why stats aren’t everything.

Right. I didn't say he should win (I voted Durant and can see arguments for West and Robinson). But, given his stats, his inclusion into the conversation shouldn't make you nauseous.

Yeah, but the rape kinda does make him an icky guy to vote for.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

It makes me nauseous that Karl Malone is even on the list of choices at this point.

His stats clearly put him in the conversation.

Great example of why stats aren’t everything.

Right. I didn't say he should win (I voted Durant and can see arguments for West and Robinson). But, given his stats, his inclusion into the conversation shouldn't make you nauseous.

Yeah, but the rape kinda does make him an icky guy to vote for.

People still voted for Kobe

 

[TripItUp]

Yeah, but the rape kinda does make him an icky guy to vote for.

I don't understand taking the off the court stuff into account here, but to each his own.

 

[Kev4029]

@Frostillicus How dare you put Giannis in front of Joker.

I think it's a close group between Durant, Barkley, West, Robinson, and Malone. Beyond that, Jokic, Giannis, Baylor, Garnett, and Dirk are all in a little semi-tier before the next group of the Stockton, Nash, Pippen types.

I'm going Jerry West - he was a modern day combo guard that could do it all - he was a great shooter, had great handles, was a great passer, was probably the best defensive guard of his day that also impacted the game offensively. In these all-time great conversations, he gets knocked for his lack of titles (1) and MVPs (0) but he made the finals 9 times and finished second in MVP voting 4 times (and also has the most MVP award shares of any non-winner). The only players EVER with more First Team All-NBA teams (10) are Karl Malone, Kobe Bryant, and Lebron James - he was a type of player (athletic, great shooting & scoring ability, defensive prowess) that has hardly existed in the history of the NBA and his combination of skills can only be exceeded by Jordan and Kobe.

Longevity and defense. I have no idea where to put Jokic.

There has been a little bit of recency bias with him I think. I would say the media is putting him in the very high teens to mid 20s on all time lists - which depending on where he lands in that rang is somewhere from overly optimistic to roughly correct. I think he should be in the low 20s, personally, as I kind of alluded to above. I have him above Giannis, but I think it's close enough right now that I couldn't argue, although I think Jokic's long term ceiling is much higher.

 

[Jayrod]

I mentioned it one of our earlier threads, but Jokic had an all-time great 3 year run here. 2 MVPs, champ, Finals MVP and led the league in nearly every advanced state plus was about 9 assists short of averaging a triple-double this year.

I think he is in the #20ish range right now.

 

[msudaisy26]

Nice to see Dirk getting a little love. I don't think he should be the pick here, but in the next 5 to 8 picks he should be off the board.

 

[Manster]

I went KG because of his defense. Dude is severely underrated, imo. Maybe the best defensive power forward ever?

 

[Da Guru]

I went with Robinson over Durant for one reason. Both are stars for sure.

But Robinson would be a part of many different types of winning teams and do whatever is needed, and never be a distraction to the team. And he was efficient with a career FG % of 53%.

 

[Zow]

I went KG because of his defense. Dude is severely underrated, imo. Maybe the best defensive power forward ever?

I have a personal story about KG and his defense and drive when it comes time for me to vote for him (next couple of slots or so).

 

[Jayrod]

I went KG because of his defense. Dude is severely underrated, imo. Maybe the best defensive power forward ever?

Just did some comparing between Garnett, Rodman, Giannis & Draymond a the only 4 guys who primarily played PF to win DPOY award.

Rodman is the only one with 2 awards, but he doesn't have the longevity of excellent defense and his advanced stats aren't as good as Garnett. Draymond wasn't great for a very long time (4-5 years? Seems already past his prime) and Giannis is shifting to more of an offensive player (didn't even make an all-defensive team this year).

Long story short, I think you are right. He is the greatest defensive PF ever.

 

[Frostillicus]

Bumpity bump.

If this drops of page 1 again without anyone getting to 25 I'll just call it for whomever is winning.

 

[Jayrod]

I'd say you can call it.

It is highly probable that KD gets 2 more votes before anyone else can get 12 or more.

 

[Yo Mama]

I might stuff the ballot box at the last minute for Elgin like I did for Kobe.

 

[Yo Mama]

@yo mama1
@yo mama2
@yo mama3
@yo mama4

Please log in and do your thing.

 

[msudaisy26]

I went with Robinson over Durant for one reason. Both are stars for sure.

But Robinson would be a part of many different types of winning teams and do whatever is needed, and never be a distraction to the team. And he was efficient with a career FG % of 53%.

Looking at fg percentage as a tie breaker is a bad stat to look at. Robinson was a post player in a different era. Durant is more of a perimeter player. If Robinson's fg percentage wasn't higher he wouldn't even be in the discussion.

 

[Da Guru]

I went with Robinson over Durant for one reason. Both are stars for sure.

But Robinson would be a part of many different types of winning teams and do whatever is needed, and never be a distraction to the team. And he was efficient with a career FG % of 53%.

Looking at fg percentage as a tie breaker is a bad stat to look at. Robinson was a post player in a different era. Durant is more of a perimeter player. If Robinson's fg percentage wasn't higher he wouldn't even be in the discussion.

I looked up NBAs top 100 and the had Robinson at 13.

1. David Robinson's advanced metrics are absolutely ridiculous.
   Not only does he have a career PER of 26.2 (the No. 4 mark of any player featured in the top 100), but he earned 0.25 win shares per 48 minutes, which remains the second-best rate of all time, narrowly losing out to Michael Jordan's rate.
   On top of that, his career offensive rating is 20 points higher than his defensive rating, he contributed in every way imaginable, and his 3.123 MVP Shares leave him at No. 12 throughout NBA history, five rungs above Hakeem Olajuwon.

 

[the moops]

I went with Robinson over Durant for one reason. Both are stars for sure.

But Robinson would be a part of many different types of winning teams and do whatever is needed, and never be a distraction to the team. And he was efficient with a career FG % of 53%.

Looking at fg percentage as a tie breaker is a bad stat to look at. Robinson was a post player in a different era. Durant is more of a perimeter player. If Robinson's fg percentage wasn't higher he wouldn't even be in the discussion.

It’s a terrible stat. Durant is a far more efficient scorer.
.583 TS% for Robinson
.619TS% for Durant

 

[AAABatteries]

I went with Robinson over Durant for one reason. Both are stars for sure.

But Robinson would be a part of many different types of winning teams and do whatever is needed, and never be a distraction to the team. And he was efficient with a career FG % of 53%.

Looking at fg percentage as a tie breaker is a bad stat to look at. Robinson was a post player in a different era. Durant is more of a perimeter player. If Robinson's fg percentage wasn't higher he wouldn't even be in the discussion.

It’s a terrible stat. Durant is a far more efficient scorer.
.583 TS% for Robinson
.619TS% for Durant

And Robinson’s WS/48 is better than Durant’s with essentially the same number of games played.

 

[msudaisy26]

I went with Robinson over Durant for one reason. Both are stars for sure.

But Robinson would be a part of many different types of winning teams and do whatever is needed, and never be a distraction to the team. And he was efficient with a career FG % of 53%.

Looking at fg percentage as a tie breaker is a bad stat to look at. Robinson was a post player in a different era. Durant is more of a perimeter player. If Robinson's fg percentage wasn't higher he wouldn't even be in the discussion.

I looked up NBAs top 100 and the had Robinson at 13.

1. David Robinson's advanced metrics are absolutely ridiculous.
   Not only does he have a career PER of 26.2 (the No. 4 mark of any player featured in the top 100), but he earned 0.25 win shares per 48 minutes, which remains the second-best rate of all time, narrowly losing out to Michael Jordan's rate.
   On top of that, his career offensive rating is 20 points higher than his defensive rating, he contributed in every way imaginable, and his 3.123 MVP Shares leave him at No. 12 throughout NBA history, five rungs above Hakeem Olajuwon.

I agree Robinson is a helluva player all time, but why not lead with this instead of field goal percentage, which is a terrible stat.

 

[AAABatteries]

I went with Robinson over Durant for one reason. Both are stars for sure.

But Robinson would be a part of many different types of winning teams and do whatever is needed, and never be a distraction to the team. And he was efficient with a career FG % of 53%.

Looking at fg percentage as a tie breaker is a bad stat to look at. Robinson was a post player in a different era. Durant is more of a perimeter player. If Robinson's fg percentage wasn't higher he wouldn't even be in the discussion.

I looked up NBAs top 100 and the had Robinson at 13.

1. David Robinson's advanced metrics are absolutely ridiculous.
   Not only does he have a career PER of 26.2 (the No. 4 mark of any player featured in the top 100), but he earned 0.25 win shares per 48 minutes, which remains the second-best rate of all time, narrowly losing out to Michael Jordan's rate.
   On top of that, his career offensive rating is 20 points higher than his defensive rating, he contributed in every way imaginable, and his 3.123 MVP Shares leave him at No. 12 throughout NBA history, five rungs above Hakeem Olajuwon.

I agree Robinson is a helluva player all time, but why not lead with this instead of field goal percentage, which is a terrible stat.

I think Guru's point was more around not seeing Durant as a team player - not sure why he threw in the efficiency. I think these two are very close - it probably doesn't make sense but I'm willing to give Robinson a bump due to starting his career at 24. He was finished at the end and Durant is still going strong. I could see me flipping the two of them in 1-2 more years.

 

[Da Guru]

I went with Robinson over Durant for one reason. Both are stars for sure.

But Robinson would be a part of many different types of winning teams and do whatever is needed, and never be a distraction to the team. And he was efficient with a career FG % of 53%.

Looking at fg percentage as a tie breaker is a bad stat to look at. Robinson was a post player in a different era. Durant is more of a perimeter player. If Robinson's fg percentage wasn't higher he wouldn't even be in the discussion.

I looked up NBAs top 100 and the had Robinson at 13.

1. David Robinson's advanced metrics are absolutely ridiculous.
   Not only does he have a career PER of 26.2 (the No. 4 mark of any player featured in the top 100), but he earned 0.25 win shares per 48 minutes, which remains the second-best rate of all time, narrowly losing out to Michael Jordan's rate.
   On top of that, his career offensive rating is 20 points higher than his defensive rating, he contributed in every way imaginable, and his 3.123 MVP Shares leave him at No. 12 throughout NBA history, five rungs above Hakeem Olajuwon.

I agree Robinson is a helluva player all time, but why not lead with this instead of field goal percentage, which is a terrible stat.

I think Guru's point was more around not seeing Durant as a team player - not sure why he threw in the efficiency. I think these two are very close - it probably doesn't make sense but I'm willing to give Robinson a bump due to starting his career at 24. He was finished at the end and Durant is still going strong. I could see me flipping the two of them in 1-2 more years.

You are correct, and I did not even look at Durant's efficiency. Durant stated his career at 19, Robinson 24 after his Navy stint. So he missed a good 3 years of his output. Not saying Durant is not a great player at all.