The next "civil war" - A Liberal backlash against the conservative backlash? (1 Viewer)

[Koya]

Your scenario is kind of falling apart.  If they are such a small minority how did they get so much power?

Trump is proving that the checks and balances are stil functioning.  If the majority get pissed off enough they can flip Congress in less than two years.

Im confused... and it's a scenario of postulation, I'm not putting forth some set in stone set of expectations. 

My contention is checks and balances may still work, today.  But let's say there's three more very Conservative and Party-Beholden justices with state and federal level efforts to double down on jerrymandering and denial of voting rights to those who tend to vote dem, resulting in an ultra conservative government across all three branches, intractably so (ala the intractable nature of a 50-50 state like NC being an 85-15 split in the legislature)...

In THAT scenario, could you not see a huge divide between the ideology of those in power and a majority of the nation (and super majority within blue states) to the point that the Red Fed tramples on the Blue States to such a degree that they simply say enough is enough... no more money to the Feds. 

 

[Henry Ford]

The former.  The Preppers have been preparing way too long.

No way.  They're toast.

 

[Higgs]

No way.  They're toast.

I'd be concerned about conditioning.  But I like the idea of having crazy ####ers on my team.

 

[Koya]

Maybe we need to look at this another way, ala the Simpsons...

The Simpons showed us what happens when the Liberal Elites take power. All so smart ... like SMRT I am so smart, smart... and yet when they got power it was a disaster.  That leads to situations where idiots like Trump get elected.

Well, what can we learn from the war episode where Bart and Lisa took on the Bully? So, the nerds failed at governance, the bullies took control... and now civil war.   I think we just need the right type of water balloon and freedom for all, will be restored. 

 

[Henry Ford]

Maybe we need to look at this another way, ala the Simpsons...

The Simpons showed us what happens when the Liberal Elites take power. All so smart ... like SMRT I am so smart, smart... and yet when they got power it was a disaster.  That leads to situations where idiots like Trump get elected.

Well, what can we learn from the war episode where Bart and Lisa took on the Bully? So, the nerds failed at governance, the bullies took control... and now civil war.   I think we just need the right type of water balloon and freedom for all, will be restored. 

The key to Springfield has always been Elm Street.  The Greeks knew it.  The Carthaginians knew it.  Now you know it.

 

[jonessed]

That's the other thing.  Conservatives leading a resistance in blue states vs. liberals running intelligence operations in red states - who do you think is more likely to pull those off?  I could probably be Governor of Louisiana before anyone realized I wasn't on their side.

I'm picturing a swarm of MAGA hat wearing valley farmers in militarized monster trucks rolling through the streets of San Francisco as hipsters throw iPhones at them.

Thats the real consequence of gentrification.

 

[Thunderlips]

How is leadership MORE Conservative and minority rights infringed on more than say, 50 years ago?

And while I admire your pluck in formatting the seeds for a resistance....this #### happened YEARS ago...only it was Conservativism getting ####ed in the ### while Liberalism ran naked and free.  The New Deal was the foundation for YEARS of Liberal rule. Conservatives survived.  Liberals will too under the Trump Regime. 

 

[Henry Ford]

I'm picturing a swarm of MAGA hat wearing valley farmers in militarized monster trucks rolling through the streets of San Francisco as hipsters throw iPhones at them.

Thats the real consequence of gentrification.

Sure, but watch what happens when the Bezos Drone Army (brought to you by Amazon™) is fully armed and operational.

 

[Koya]

How is leadership MORE Conservative and minority rights infringed on more than say, 50 years ago?

And while I admire your pluck in formatting the seeds for a resistance....this #### happened YEARS ago...only it was Conservativism getting ####ed in the ### while Liberalism ran naked and free.  The New Deal was the foundation for YEARS of Liberal rule. Conservatives survived.  Liberals will too under the Trump Regime. 

I'm not comparing this to 50 years ago.  Back then, we were far more behind than we are today, but making progress.  

Now, what happens when progress is erased and potentially moved backward? What happens when people who fought for the right to vote are continually denied the right to do so, for no more than partisan reasons? What happens if members of the LGBTQ community suddenly see their rights recede? It's a lot different when rights are taken away.

Finally, I am talking about two major pressure points: (1) the potential walking back of hard earned rights and civil liberties, rights that are not waiting to be given, but existing and taken away and (2) under that purview, more dollars flowing from the states who have their citizens denied more rights flowing to the fed gov't and into red states when there already is a huge imbalance there, today.   So, maybe NY says the Feds don't care if poor people have no healthcare and die, but we do... but we cant fund the Feds who then subsidize red states and large corporations AND fund state medical assistance, so screw you feds, we gonna help our own.

FINALLY, with the Liberal rule of the New Deal (not sure you've noticed, but we've already had a conservative court for decades now), just what RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS were taken from conservatives? Were they told they can't marry someone they love? Told they can't worship their faith in their own private lives or at their church? Were they told to give their money to subsidize other states who wish to take away their freedoms as such? Were they told that the gov't would do everything possible to not let them vote anymore?

Really, I'd like an answer to that. Because while the new deal and that level of progressivism is far left of me, I don't see how it directly infringed or took away clear freedoms whereas it appears many Conservatives wish to do just that in forcing others to live how "they" feel is proper. 

 

[Koya]

I'm picturing a swarm of MAGA hat wearing valley farmers in militarized monster trucks rolling through the streets of San Francisco as hipsters throw iPhones at them.

Thats the real consequence of gentrification.

Yeah, but I'll take some of those nappy haired female hippies over some overweight yahoo's in a street fight any day. Those #####es will #### you up five times til Sunday, and TWICE on "your" sabbath. 

 

[jonessed]

Sure, but watch what happens when the Bezos Drone Army (brought to you by Amazon™) is fully armed and operational.

He's going to have to team up with Oakland to load them with some actual weaponry.  I don't think they could take a monster truck armada armed with copper mugs and beard trimmers.

 

[The Duff Man]

How is the withholding of funds going to happen?  

Who is going to make the call?  One guy? The Feds would grab him. Next guy up turns over the funds or he is nabbed next. 

Do they plan on barricading themselves in state offices?

You wouldn't have the whole state in concensus. Some person is just going to decide this and do it. A decent portion of their own state would rise against them. 

Have someone run on the platform that they WILL do this and put it to vote? No way that person wins, might not make it alive to election night. 

 

[Henry Ford]

He's going to have to team up with Oakland to load them with some actual weaponry.  I don't think they could take a monster truck armada armed with copper mugs and beard trimmers.

Dude, it's Amazon.  You think they don't have a holding tank filled with sharks that have lasers coming out of their eyes? 

 

[Henry Ford]

Yeah, but I'll take some of those nappy haired female hippies over some overweight yahoo's in a street fight any day. Those #####es will #### you up five times til Sunday, and TWICE on "your" sabbath. 

Plus, chlamydia. 

 

[Boston]

That's the other thing.  Conservatives leading a resistance in blue states vs. liberals running intelligence operations in red states - who do you think is more likely to pull those off?  I could probably be Governor of Louisiana before anyone realized I wasn't on their side.

Unfortunately due to their commitment to diversity and the affirmative action policies of the blue state army your application to be Governor of Louisiana has been denied...RuPaul has been named acting Governor... 

 

[Thunderlips]

I'm not comparing this to 50 years ago.  Back then, we were far more behind than we are today, but making progress.  

Now, what happens when progress is erased and potentially moved backward? What happens when people who fought for the right to vote are continually denied the right to do so, for no more than partisan reasons? What happens if members of the LGBTQ community suddenly see their rights recede? It's a lot different when rights are taken away.

Finally, I am talking about two major pressure points: (1) the potential walking back of hard earned rights and civil liberties, rights that are not waiting to be given, but existing and taken away and (2) under that purview, more dollars flowing from the states who have their citizens denied more rights flowing to the fed gov't and into red states when there already is a huge imbalance there, today.   So, maybe NY says the Feds don't care if poor people have no healthcare and die, but we do... but we cant fund the Feds who then subsidize red states and large corporations AND fund state medical assistance, so screw you feds, we gonna help our own.

FINALLY, with the Liberal rule of the New Deal (not sure you've noticed, but we've already had a conservative court for decades now), just what RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS were taken from conservatives? Were they told they can't marry someone they love? Told they can't worship their faith in their own private lives or at their church? Were they told to give their money to subsidize other states who wish to take away their freedoms as such? Were they told that the gov't would do everything possible to not let them vote anymore?

Really, I'd like an answer to that. Because while the new deal and that level of progressivism is far left of me, I don't see how it directly infringed or took away clear freedoms whereas it appears many Conservatives wish to do just that in forcing others to live how "they" feel is proper. 

I don't think states will revolt or secede over a denial/rollback of rights to minorites.  I think, if Federal legislation is brought up to rollback rights, the voting public will make their disdain known and those rights will be protected. If a worse case scenario happens and the voting public votes for Ralph Nader, Jill Stein, Harambe, Kang, Kodos or some other jabroni instead of being pragmatic and voting for the lesser of two evils......I think you'll start to see states attempting to carve out whatever the conscience of the voting public in that states feels right. In a manner of sense, implementing the Conservative idea of what Roe V. Wade should be (the states should decide). * 

I guess, if a state wishes to keep more money "in-state", they could in theory attempt to pass legislation to keep their money....although "giver/taker" state status isn't just based on funds going to the Federal Government.....Federal jobs per state and revenue from Federal funding contribute to that.  Any attempt to subjugate the actual fundage going to the Federal Government would probably be met with a threat of witholding jobs or budget funding (didn't this happen in LA....LA refused to raise the drinking age to 21 and lost money because of it?).  Ironically...I'd imagine that a state "reaping what is sows" over giving it up to the Federal Government is something that Conservatives could get behind. *

Finally, just to play Devils Advocate....i'd imagine that the high taxation of The New Deal, along with the Federal Government attempting to circumvent State Government along a number of different agendas (Civil Rights/Department of Education standards...I'm sure there's plenty more) is more than enough to claim an infringement on the Rights of the voters in a particular state. 

*All of this would be moot if you think that Conservativism is dead in the Republican Party and has instead be replaced by entities (Trump?/Evangelicals?/ White people who hate PC Thugdom and long for the day when they wouldn't be viewed negatively for calling a black person a **) who have no problem embracing aspects of Dictatorship.

** At the end of the day, the more I read comments sections online about various articles....this is what I'm convinced has the White Man dander so up in arms.  Maybe that's a bit unfair....but anecdotally, I do notice a helluva lot of white folks who lament the idea that Obama gave black people something to be happy about.

 

[Koya]

I don't think states will revolt or secede over a denial/rollback of rights to minorites.  I think, if Federal legislation is brought up to rollback rights, the voting public will make their disdain known and those rights will be protected. If a worse case scenario happens and the voting public votes for Ralph Nader, Jill Stein, Harambe, Kang, Kodos or some other jabroni instead of being pragmatic and voting for the lesser of two evils......I think you'll start to see states attempting to carve out whatever the conscience of the voting public in that states feels right. In a manner of sense, implementing the Conservative idea of what Roe V. Wade should be (the states should decide). * 

I guess, if a state wishes to keep more money "in-state", they could in theory attempt to pass legislation to keep their money....although "giver/taker" state status isn't just based on funds going to the Federal Government.....Federal jobs per state and revenue from Federal funding contribute to that.  Any attempt to subjugate the actual fundage going to the Federal Government would probably be met with a threat of witholding jobs or budget funding (didn't this happen in LA....LA refused to raise the drinking age to 21 and lost money because of it?).  Ironically...I'd imagine that a state "reaping what is sows" over giving it up to the Federal Government is something that Conservatives could get behind. *

Finally, just to play Devils Advocate....i'd imagine that the high taxation of The New Deal, along with the Federal Government attempting to circumvent State Government along a number of different agendas (Civil Rights/Department of Education standards...I'm sure there's plenty more) is more than enough to claim an infringement on the Rights of the voters in a particular state. 

*All of this would be moot if you think that Conservativism is dead in the Republican Party and has instead be replaced by entities (Trump?/Evangelicals?/ White people who hate PC Thugdom and long for the day when they wouldn't be viewed negatively for calling a black person a **) who have no problem embracing aspects of Dictatorship.

** At the end of the day, the more I read comments sections online about various articles....this is what I'm convinced has the White Man dander so up in arms.  Maybe that's a bit unfair....but anecdotally, I do notice a helluva lot of white folks who lament the idea that Obama gave black people something to be happy about.

Appreciate the well thought out response. 

FWIW, for anything close to this extreme scenario to occur it would require FAR more backward movement than any one or two issues listed above. That's why I tried to posit this as a perfect storm of the super Conservative ideologues just got total hold of the apparatus even as public sentiment moved away from that on a macro level. 

We'd have gotten to a point well PAST repeal of Roe v Wade, abortion outlawed across the land, US Gov threatens to withhold all funds to states that allow it... BOOM!

Or to put it another way, imagine the implementation of the full Republican platform. Or Mike Pence's policy handbook.

 

[Grace Under Pressure]

Hillary shat the bed that the DNC made. Poor personal connectivity between the candidate and the Obama coalition, and she couldn't bring women to the polls in massive repudiation of a blatant misogynist. That's the dynamic.

In other words, let's get a better candidate, a better message, and a better turnout next time. That should be the backlash. I see it more as a backlash against ignorance than against conservatism. Overcoming vast swaths of the country that consist of an undereducated homogenous majority is the challenge, especially during times where demonizing those dissimilar to us has become alarmingly en vogue.

 

[MaxThreshold]

Hey @Koya: Remember yesterday when I said you were doing good the last week not giving into the hysteria?  Yeah, I was wrong.

You guys keep insisting you're not hysterical and then threads and posts like this pop up.

 

[Koya]

Hey @Koya: Remember yesterday when I said you were doing good the last week not giving into the hysteria?  Yeah, I was wrong.

You guys keep insisting you're not hysterical and then threads and posts like this pop up.

This thread is pretty much on par with the epistemological discussions of sopsism. It's postulation based upon the most extreme feasible trajectory of humanity.

And if you think crazy ####ed up .05% things don't happen at the highest levels of societal structure, I contend Trump. 

 

[Koya]

PS @MaxThreshold

you did say LAST week.

 

[Jayded]

I think the backlash will work both ways to some degree. I agree the country as a whole is moving socially liberal and that'll be the big backlash against conservatives if they don't adjust pronto.

Most are ok with the current taxes, but with both sides spending money as they are with no plan, the bubble will eventually burst and healthcare might be the thing to do it. Right or wrong, Dems are seen by most as responsible for that though recent conservatives, especially, have been equal if not worse and deserve blame too. 

 

[Rich Conway]

Who is risking utter anarchy.. a state withholding payments to the feds because they are getting screwed out of both their fair share and being imposed upon by the greedy feds taking that unfair share, or... well... again, my question is what happens to call that "bluff" or action if undertaken. 

I assume if individuals decided to stop paying taxes, the IRS would simply garnish their wages and/or throw them in jail.  You know, kind of like what happens now.

 

[Koya]

I assume if individuals decided to stop paying taxes, the IRS would simply garnish their wages and/or throw them in jail.  You know, kind of like what happens now.

Good point - except what about the state withholds the payments?

 

[Rich Conway]

I assume if individuals decided to stop paying taxes, the IRS would simply garnish their wages and/or throw them in jail.  You know, kind of like what happens now.

Good point - except what about the state withholds the payments?

Since when do states pay the federal government?  Do you think that New York will somehow convince ADP, Paychex, and other payroll companies to stop sending withholdings to the Feds?  The Feds would sue ADP out of existence.  Never happen.

 

[Rich Conway]

They would protect their homes and neighborhoods against the invaders. 

The liberal states only need to hold off invaders. Conservatives would need to take and hold territory. And we don't live in an era where Sherman can burn his way through Georgia anymore. 

Why would the conservatives want to take and hold Compton?  I thought the point was to force the wealthy liberals to pay their taxes?  That means Hollywood and Silicon Valley, not Compton.

 

[Henry Ford]

Why would the conservatives want to take and hold Compton?  I thought the point was to force the wealthy liberals to pay their taxes?  That means Hollywood and Silicon Valley, not Compton.

Gotta take the whole state.

 

[dickey moe]

That is part of the problem. We seem to now be beholden to a strongly partisan very ideological sect of what had been a much more broad conservative movement.  Hell, I just repeated to my parents two nights ago how I should have been voting mostly republican for the last 10-12 years, but the party has just run away from me on so many fronts.

And the Democratic Party is the lesser of two evils for you?

 

[MaxThreshold]

Gotta take the whole state.

Pretty sure we could - And I bet there are plenty of CA residents tired of living in that liberal cesspool who would gladly help.

 

[Henry Ford]

Pretty sure we could - And I bet there are plenty of CA residents tired of living in that liberal cesspool who would gladly help.

Looks like it's moot for the moment.  We'll be busy in Syria

 

[Koya]

And the Democratic Party is the lesser of two evils for you?

Sadly yes. And it's not particularly close.

That said I vote third party / Libertarian when it makes sense... like the last two Presidential elections for example.

 

[Riversco]

If liberals showed up to vote the way that conservatives do they'd win every national election, hands down, period.

No they wouldn't.  The republicans could just shift left on education and say government funded education is a good thing because its a national security issue and embrace a massive education budget.  That one move alone would obtain a huge number of voters because the education vote currently is almost 100% democrat.  If educators believed republicans weren't always threatening to cut education you can bet a lot of them would switch to the elephant.

 

[Man of Constant Sorrow]

This thread is pretty much on par with the epistemological discussions of sopsism. It's postulation based upon the most extreme feasible trajectory of humanity.

I'm guessing you mean, "the discussions of epistemological solipsism"?

But, to the point of the thread, don't be diss'in us Kentucky boys, for we still hold the gold; well, at least the majority of it...unless you are into conspiracy theory stuff.

Plus, if we can ever get around to legalizing MJ here, you may be missin' out on some of the best smoke the market has to offer.

Furthermore, if you like true quality bourbon...well...good luck with that too.

Damn, from that perspective, no wonder we're so damn unproductive; we hold most the gold, have awesome weed and the best bourbon the world has to offer...what more is needed?

And, finally, as a life-long Louisvillian, I need to warn ya; it ain't as easy to secede from Kentucky as you may think...

...believe me...

...we've been trying for decades. :(

 

[Man of Constant Sorrow]

b) young black men in inner cities all over America ain't fighting on Mitch McConnell's side on this one.  You give me 100-150 committed Bloods or 18th Streeters, I'll take them in a street war over 100-150 doomsday preppers from Kentucky any day of the week.

wat? 

Henry, Henry, Henry! 

We Kentucky boys would never form a company comprised of solely preppers! 

We have our own inner city troops as well; I spent 20 years workin in their turf. 

We're bump'kin-bright enough to form a mixed unit company. 

Plus, we have perhaps the world's top urban warfare training center to boot! 

Heh...just imagine a mixed horde...a tumblin' toothless biker vanguard; followed by a fully gang-initiated infantry; backed by prepper snipers...all trained by Zussman in urban warfare. :mindblown:

All those coastal crusaders (DAMN REB's to boot!) would be gobsmacked in their own urine!!!!!

BRING IT ON I SAY!!!!! 

HEH...great thread Koya!

 

[Koya]

I'm guessing you mean, "the discussions of epistemological solipsism"?

Nope, I meant what I wrote and wrote what I meant.

But good points on the weed and bourbon

 

[Man of Constant Sorrow]

But good points on the weed and bourbon

So...the gold has no play in this game?

 

[Man in the yellow hat]

Honestly, the responses here only make my concerns that much more, well, concerning. 

My point is we have an ever more ingrained power structure to serve a Conservative agenda that is at odds with both social and economic well being of blue states.  If we move more blue as a nation, but the laws get more red, especially as/when it hits the economics, why not have NY or Cali just stop sending payments to the feds?

That's not armed conflict, either. Would only escalate to that if the Feds sent in troops to "get" the money (however the #### that might happen).

And ludicrous as this sounds, have nation's not turned away from their populations before, resulting in uprisings at the best, and all out war at the worst? I tend to think it would be more the former, and then economic retribution, but from there I really don't know how it plays out. 

For one thing, isn't the banking center of this nation residing in New York? You can have a liberal leaning base in that state, but at the end of the day, do you think the financial center of U.S. is going to allow the state to turn their back on the Federal government? I don't see it, especially considering that banking and the right go hand in hand.

Secondly, I have to believe that the government already works pretty darn hand in hand with companies like Google and Facebook. I'm guessing way more than we already know. You're being tracked, and not just by those companies, but the government through those platforms. I don't know. Would these types of companies allow places like California to turn their back on the government they are working closely with? Too much conspiracy theory in my thoughts here?

Honestly, I'm open to counter arguments. I admit, I haven't spent a great deal of time thinking about this.

 

[James Daulton]

As the country gets more and more educated and the boomers die off this won't be an issue any more.

Conservatism will have to pivot left.

And I don't mean you @Henry Ford, you're one cool Mississippian liberal-leaning boomer.

 

[Koya]

For one thing, isn't the banking center of this nation residing in New York? You can have a liberal leaning base in that state, but at the end of the day, do you think the financial center of U.S. is going to allow the state to turn their back on the Federal government? I don't see it, especially considering that banking and the right go hand in hand.

Secondly, I have to believe that the government already works pretty darn hand in hand with companies like Google and Facebook. I'm guessing way more than we already know. You're being tracked, and not just by those companies, but the government through those platforms. I don't know. Would these types of companies allow places like California to turn their back on the government they are working closely with? Too much conspiracy theory in my thoughts here?

Honestly, I'm open to counter arguments. I admit, I haven't spent a great deal of time thinking about this.

All valid points ... biggest issue you bring up is federally controlled IT and financial infrastructure. 

Maybe we need Mr. Robot to cause a little world wide havoc and get off away from the global banking teet and then BOOM!

 

[Koya]

So...the gold has no play in this game?

Gold is good if you can use it to buy weed and bourbon. 

 

[Henry Ford]

As the country gets more and more educated and the boomers die off this won't be an issue any more.

Conservatism will have to pivot left.

And I don't mean you @Henry Ford, you're one cool Mississippian liberal-leaning boomer.

I am, by the skin of my teeth, not a boomer. 

 

[Man of Constant Sorrow]

Gold is good if you can use it to buy weed and bourbon. 

Very true!

This is not my area, but I still believe that losing well over 50% of the federal gold reserve probably would have an impact on the Coastal Confederacy. 

Also, what about currency in the New Nation? Will the dollar remain? What will back it?

 

[Man of Constant Sorrow]

I am, by the skin of my teeth, not a boomer. 

Heh...teeth...lucky you. 

Don't mean ya need to brag 'bout it tho.

 

[James Daulton]

I am, by the skin of my teeth, not a boomer. 

Ha, my bad.  The last thing I want to do is misrepresent facts about you my friend.

 

[Koya]

Very true!

This is not my area, but I still believe that losing well over 50% of the federal gold reserve probably would have an impact on the Coastal Confederacy. 

Also, what about currency in the New Nation? Will the dollar remain? What will back it?

Pizza and Pastrami?

 

[Man of Constant Sorrow]

Pizza and Pastrami?

Kosher?

 

[Koya]

Kosher?

Of course ... we can then get Kushner to  back channel our own detente with our new Russian overlords. 

 

[Man of Constant Sorrow]

I am, by the skin of my teeth, not a boomer. 

Ha, my bad.  The last thing I want to do is misrepresent facts about you my friend.

If you really want a good one on O'Henry, James...

...while we already know that Mr. Ford sports ink, most don't know that it was a combined homage to his hero's Roger Stone and Leslie West.

Henry Ford, Mississippi Queen

 

[Man of Constant Sorrow]

Kosher?

Of course ... we can then get Kushner to  back channel our own detente with our new Russian overlords. 

Ok, ok...no-kosher was no-deal for me; thus, I'm buy'in so far.

Next then would be, where would you secure the goods?

I'd hate to have some Pastramifinger nuke your vault, as the coasts just aren't as secure as the fly-over.

 

[knowledge dropper]

So young people get older and vote R?

Yes.  Just let them get some coin in their pockets.  They miraculously see the light.