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The Obama Doctrine: A Recipe for Failure Overseas (1 Viewer)

Chadstroma

Footballguy
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2015/05/21/the_obama_doctrine_a_recipe_for_failure_overseas.html?google_editors_picks=true

The Obama Doctrine: A Recipe for Failure Overseas By Peter Berkowitz - May 21, 2015


Saudi King Salman's decision to skip President Obama’s Camp David summit last week with leaders of the six Arab states that compose the Gulf Cooperation Council delivered a diplomatic rebuke. It broadcast skepticism on the part of Saudi Arabia—by far the largest and most powerful member of the GCC—of Obama’s assurances that U.S.-led negotiations won’t pave the way for their archenemy, the Islamic Republic of Iran, to complete its decades-long quest to acquire nuclear weapons.

By declining Obama’s invitation just two days before the May 13 White House meeting—in favor of a horse show outside London—Bahrain King Hamad bin Isa al Khalifa underscored that the Saudis are not alone among their Gulf Arab brethren in believing that the Obama administration is determined to empower America's Shia and Persian adversary Iran at the expense of America's Sunni and Arab GCC friends. In the end, only two heads of state—from Kuwait and Qatar—along with lesser officials representing the other four GCC members attended the meeting, which concluded with presidential promises that America would assist the Gulf States in meeting their security needs.


Nothing emerged from Camp David, however, likely to alter the calculations of the Saudis, who have increasingly indicated that if the United States signs what they judge a bad deal with Iran, the kingdom will buy or build their own nuclear arms. Should the Saudis take that fateful step, chances are that two other Middle East powers—Egypt and Turkey—will attempt to follow suit. That would turn the world’s most unstable and volatile region into a poly-nuclear powder keg.
Why has Barack Obama, who has long proclaimed a desire to reduce nuclear proliferation, aggressively pursued a rapprochement with a resolute American adversary that is provoking several longtime U.S. allies to go nuclear?

It’s tempting, although not reassuring, to surmise that the problem is that the president lacks a plan. The temptation is intensified when one considers America’s halting and equivocal response to the wars that have swept the Arab world since the winter of 2011, to increased Russian adventurism in the Ukraine, and to Chinese muscle flexing in the East and South China seas.

It would be a mistake, however, to conclude that the president’s foreign policy has proven ineffective for want of an overarching conception of America’s role in the world, according to author Colin Dueck. In “The Obama Doctrine: American Grand Strategy Today,” Dueck argues that Obama does “have a kind of implicit grand strategy.” It consists of “overarching American retrenchment and accommodation internationally, in large part to allow the president to focus on securing liberal policy legacies at home.” In Dueck’s view, America’s position abroad has deteriorated because of Obama’s grand strategy.

An associate professor of government at George Mason University's School of Policy, Government, and International Affairs, Dueck draws on the president’s speeches and writings to distill his understanding of the benefits of retrenchment—cutting costs and scaling back America’s overseas presence—and of accommodation, which in the president’s hands means showing respect for adversaries’ interests and ambitions by offering unilateral concessions in the hopes of reducing their enmity. Dueck examines the Obama Doctrine’s shortcomings as a strategic outlook and Obama’s mistakes in implementing it, the domestic politics of foreign affairs, and several conservative alternatives. Finally, he defends what he calls “conservative American realism.” With this multifaceted book, he takes his place among our premier scholars of foreign affairs.

Insofar as Obama’s grand strategy aims “to secure progressive policy legacies, win domestic political victories, and preserve the strength of his center-left coalition,” Dueck observes, “then it must be conceded that—during his first term, at least—the strategy worked fairly well.” At least in the short term, Obama prevented world affairs from interfering with his ambitious progressive reform agenda: expanding the government’s role in health care and financial regulation, easing barriers to immigration and naturalization, legitimizing same-sex marriage, and pushing liberal solutions in an array of fields ranging from higher education to the environment. And he won re-election.

But Obama’s strategy of foreign policy avoidance, Dueck shows, has cost the United States. Retrenchment and accommodation have produced no detectable gain in international cooperation, even as the president’s coddling of adversaries and neglect of friends has eroded the world order that is indispensable to America’s long-term interests.

Consider the mismatch between Obama’s rhetoric and, in the seventh year of his presidency, international realities.

Early on, he announced that he would take concrete steps to eliminate nuclear weapons around the world. In the middle of his second term, he is farther from that goal than when he took office, and not only because his pending deal with Iran legitimizes the world’s leading state sponsor of terror as a threshold nuclear power and is likely to spark a nuclear arms race in the Middle East. Rogue state North Korea has defiantly tested its nuclear weapons and long-range missiles. Meanwhile, nuclear powers Russia, the United Kingdom, France, China, India, and Pakistan have shown no inclination to abandon nuclear arms. Israel continues to decline to confirm or deny possession of nuclear weapons.

Despite this administration’s engagement with Iran, reset with Russia, and pivot to Asia, leaders in Tehran, Moscow, and Beijing continue to view America as an impediment to their regional ambitions. All three nations have grown more assertive during Obama’s tenure. This failed accommodation of rivals—combined with an energetic retrenchment that is substantially reducing the size of the U.S. military—has, Dueck maintains, “unnerved American allies in Central and Eastern Europe, East Asia, and the Middle East.”

Obama has also exaggerated his successes in combatting transnational terrorism. The detention facility at Guantanamo Bay is still open. Al-Qaeda has become a growth enterprise; affiliates have spread throughout the Middle East. Unwilling to call Islamic terrorism by its name, the president has resorted to the euphemism of “countering violent extremism.” At the same time, and much more aggressively than the Bush administration, the president has employed drone strikes to kill jihadists. While a vital component of the struggle against the Islamists, this practice—which involves considerable risk of harm to noncombatants—raises difficult questions of tactics, law, and morality of the very kind that Sen. Obama had insisted depended on a false dichotomy between our security and our respect for rights.

Obama displayed high hopes of winning over adherents of Islam. In his June 2009 Cairo speech, he reached out to the world’s approximately 1.6 billion Muslims as a single people. Yet in most Muslim countries today, the United States is no more popular under Obama than under Bush, and in some it is decidedly less so.

Six years after the Cairo speech, all sides in Egypt—the secular liberals, the Muslim Brotherhood, and the military, represented by democratically elected President Abdel Fattah el-Sisi—scorn Obama. In Libya, the United States began by “leading from behind” in a 2011 multinational operation intended to oust Moammar Gadhafi.

Soon after the dictator was dragged through the streets and killed by an angry mob, America abandoned any pretense of leading; the intervention left in its wake a failed state that serves as a “safe haven for Islamist terrorists, warlords, and organized crime.” In Syria, Obama has vacillated, moving from support for President Bashar al-Assad to calls for his removal to acquiescence in his reign to lukewarm support for the rebels. Having inherited a relatively stable Iraq, Obama precipitously withdrew all American troops in 2011 to honor a reckless campaign pledge, thereby opening the door to radical Islamists who now control much of the northwestern region of the country, including the just-captured city of Ramadi, 70 miles from Baghdad.

One constant in this disarray is the president’s decision-making process. In the mainstream press his approach is frequently characterized as calm and careful; in Professor Dueck’s telling, it often amounts in practice to dithering and timidity. Another cause of American setbacks is that Obama and several members of his inner circle are better versed in and more focused on the impact of foreign policy on the president’s domestic popularity than on its consequences for vital American interests abroad. But, according to Dueck, “The essential problem with the Obama Doctrine is that it is based upon a sincere but fundamentally mistaken and unrealistic theory of international relations.”

Obama seems to believe that international conflict primarily arises from misunderstanding, and that therefore greater conciliatoriness by the United States will yield dramatic improvements in international cooperation. In the real world, however, where all-too-many international conflicts spring from adversaries who understand all too well each other’s irreconcilable ambitions, retrenchment and accommodation by the world’s sole superpower signal weakness and generate disorder.

Dueck presents his alternative “conservative American realism,” in opposition to both the Obama Doctrine and the rise of Republican anti-interventionists led by Sen. Rand Paul. This alternative, Dueck argues, possesses a strategic coherence that will advance America’s vital security interests, and a popular appeal that can unite much of the GOP and win majority support within the country.

Conservative American realism, he writes, stands for “bedrock support for American allies overseas, firm deterrence of U.S. adversaries, assertive counterterrorism, reinforced national defenses, and an overarching mentality of peace through strength.”

Out of a prudent concern for liberty and limited government at home, conservative realism seeks to preserve America's preeminence in the international order. Skeptical of international institutions—beginning with the United Nations, which is often hijacked by authoritarian states—and firmly opposed to subordinating American sovereignty to them, it would instead advance human rights through cooperation with fellow democracies. It would de-emphasize nation building while subjecting foreign economic aid and humanitarian intervention to stricter cost-benefit analysis.

What a conservative realism would certainly not do is, under the guise of preventing nuclear proliferation, accelerate the acquisition of nuclear weapons in the Middle East, a region vital to the international economic order and therefore essential to American security and prosperity.

Peter Berkowitz is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution, Stanford University. His writings are posted at www.PeterBerkowitz.com and he can be followed on Twitter @BerkowitzPeter.
 
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If a poster can even be bothered to format the OP correctly, hard to give the post your attention. Especially when it's obviously a political hit piece from RCP.

 
It's constantly stunning to me that whenever a foreign power rebukes Obama in some way, that power gets praised by American conservatives, no matter who it is. Putin received all kinds of implicit compliments last year. The Imam of Iran, Khameini, long one of America's greatest villains, has received admiration in conservative circles for supposedly repudiating Obama's Iran negotiations. And now Saudi Arabia. Such is the hatred for Barack Obama that if Josef Stalin were alive and calling him out, conservatives would find a way to praise Uncle Joe.

Saudi Arabia's concern over our negotiations with Iran has very little to do with nuclear weapons. It has to do with the fact that any rapprochement with Iran by the United States represents to a threat to the Saudis as the preeminent power among Middle Eastern states, which they have held for the last 40 years or so. That's what they're concerned about.

I don't know who this professor is, but anyone who speculates that Obama's policies abroad are designed to weaken American involvement so as to pursue liberal policies as home- well, that person is a hack. I don't really need to read any more. Barack Obama is trying to make a deal with Iran because he thinks that it will help bring peace and better relations with that country. I agree with him.

 
If a poster can even be bothered to format the OP correctly, hard to give the post your attention. Especially when it's obviously a political hit piece from RCP.
I was at work. I will clean it up for you now if that will bring a smile to your pretty face.

It's constantly stunning to me that whenever a foreign power rebukes Obama in some way, that power gets praised by American conservatives, no matter who it is. Putin received all kinds of implicit compliments last year. The Imam of Iran, Khameini, long one of America's greatest villains, has received admiration in conservative circles for supposedly repudiating Obama's Iran negotiations. And now Saudi Arabia. Such is the hatred for Barack Obama that if Josef Stalin were alive and calling him out, conservatives would find a way to praise Uncle Joe.

Saudi Arabia's concern over our negotiations with Iran has very little to do with nuclear weapons. It has to do with the fact that any rapprochement with Iran by the United States represents to a threat to the Saudis as the preeminent power among Middle Eastern states, which they have held for the last 40 years or so. That's what they're concerned about.

I don't know who this professor is, but anyone who speculates that Obama's policies abroad are designed to weaken American involvement so as to pursue liberal policies as home- well, that person is a hack. I don't really need to read any more. Barack Obama is trying to make a deal with Iran because he thinks that it will help bring peace and better relations with that country. I agree with him.
I have not seen anyone praise these foreign powers. Can you provide evidence?

What I have seen is lamenting over how Obama has empowered these foreign powers through his impotence and ineptitude. +

Your view of the Saudi view of Iran is horribly simplistic and void of an actual understanding of the politics region and how religion and race play roles as well. It is not just the Saudi's who view Iran as their primary threat but the entirety of the Sunni Arab oil states- it is just that the Saudi's are the most prominent. There is no concern that the US will adopt Iran as their new best buddy in the region but that there is real concern and fear of a Shiite Persian nation that has tons of potential to be the dominant regional power and how their interests are in opposition to the interests of hte Sunni Arab states.

You also seem to miss the point of what Berkowitz was saying. He is actually giving the administration the benefit of the doubt here. It is not that the foreign policy is designed to be weak but that the attention has been focused on domestic initiatives at the expense of foriegn policy.

 
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It's constantly stunning to me that whenever a foreign power rebukes Obama in some way, that power gets praised by American conservatives, no matter who it is. Putin received all kinds of implicit compliments last year. The Imam of Iran, Khameini, long one of America's greatest villains, has received admiration in conservative circles for supposedly repudiating Obama's Iran negotiations. And now Saudi Arabia. Such is the hatred for Barack Obama that if Josef Stalin were alive and calling him out, conservatives would find a way to praise Uncle Joe.

Saudi Arabia's concern over our negotiations with Iran has very little to do with nuclear weapons. It has to do with the fact that any rapprochement with Iran by the United States represents to a threat to the Saudis as the preeminent power among Middle Eastern states, which they have held for the last 40 years or so. That's what they're concerned about.

I don't know who this professor is, but anyone who speculates that Obama's policies abroad are designed to weaken American involvement so as to pursue liberal policies as home- well, that person is a hack. I don't really need to read any more. Barack Obama is trying to make a deal with Iran because he thinks that it will help bring peace and better relations with that country. I agree with him.
Yep.

And it's amazing to me who the people on the right will get in bed with because of their irrational hatred of Obama.

 
It's constantly stunning to me that whenever a foreign power rebukes Obama in some way, that power gets praised by American conservatives, no matter who it is. Putin received all kinds of implicit compliments last year. The Imam of Iran, Khameini, long one of America's greatest villains, has received admiration in conservative circles for supposedly repudiating Obama's Iran negotiations. And now Saudi Arabia. Such is the hatred for Barack Obama that if Josef Stalin were alive and calling him out, conservatives would find a way to praise Uncle Joe.

Saudi Arabia's concern over our negotiations with Iran has very little to do with nuclear weapons. It has to do with the fact that any rapprochement with Iran by the United States represents to a threat to the Saudis as the preeminent power among Middle Eastern states, which they have held for the last 40 years or so. That's what they're concerned about.

I don't know who this professor is, but anyone who speculates that Obama's policies abroad are designed to weaken American involvement so as to pursue liberal policies as home- well, that person is a hack. I don't really need to read any more. Barack Obama is trying to make a deal with Iran because he thinks that it will help bring peace and better relations with that country. I agree with him.
Yep.

And it's amazing to me who the people on the right will get in bed with because of their irrational hatred of Obama.
I have no irrational hatred of President Obama. I actually graded his foreign policy out to about a B grade (I am sure I could dig up some posts saying as much about 3 or 4 years ago) for the first term but the second term his weaknesses and inaction has had the wheels fallen off. I agree largely with this article.

The Iran deal to me smells of desperation to get a win. It is a horrible deal that destablizes the region greatly and provides at best a short delay in Iran acquiring nuclear weapons.

 
It's constantly stunning to me that whenever a foreign power rebukes Obama in some way, that power gets praised by American conservatives, no matter who it is. Putin received all kinds of implicit compliments last year. The Imam of Iran, Khameini, long one of America's greatest villains, has received admiration in conservative circles for supposedly repudiating Obama's Iran negotiations. And now Saudi Arabia. Such is the hatred for Barack Obama that if Josef Stalin were alive and calling him out, conservatives would find a way to praise Uncle Joe.

Saudi Arabia's concern over our negotiations with Iran has very little to do with nuclear weapons. It has to do with the fact that any rapprochement with Iran by the United States represents to a threat to the Saudis as the preeminent power among Middle Eastern states, which they have held for the last 40 years or so. That's what they're concerned about.

I don't know who this professor is, but anyone who speculates that Obama's policies abroad are designed to weaken American involvement so as to pursue liberal policies as home- well, that person is a hack. I don't really need to read any more. Barack Obama is trying to make a deal with Iran because he thinks that it will help bring peace and better relations with that country. I agree with him.
Damn this was some of my best writing. I'm pretty proud of this.

 
It's constantly stunning to me that whenever a foreign power rebukes Obama in some way, that power gets praised by American conservatives, no matter who it is. Putin received all kinds of implicit compliments last year. The Imam of Iran, Khameini, long one of America's greatest villains, has received admiration in conservative circles for supposedly repudiating Obama's Iran negotiations. And now Saudi Arabia. Such is the hatred for Barack Obama that if Josef Stalin were alive and calling him out, conservatives would find a way to praise Uncle Joe.

Saudi Arabia's concern over our negotiations with Iran has very little to do with nuclear weapons. It has to do with the fact that any rapprochement with Iran by the United States represents to a threat to the Saudis as the preeminent power among Middle Eastern states, which they have held for the last 40 years or so. That's what they're concerned about.

I don't know who this professor is, but anyone who speculates that Obama's policies abroad are designed to weaken American involvement so as to pursue liberal policies as home- well, that person is a hack. I don't really need to read any more. Barack Obama is trying to make a deal with Iran because he thinks that it will help bring peace and better relations with that country. I agree with him.
Yep.

And it's amazing to me who the people on the right will get in bed with because of their irrational hatred of Obama.
:bs:

 
I see another massive issue in administration policy in regards to Daesh/Syria.

Recently Turkey has stepped up to the plate- launching air raids, detaining individuals in Turkey and even some ground offensives. A big win was allowing US warplanes access to some bases. Which all sounds great and all until you really look into it.

It appears that most of this is directed at the Kurds than it is Daesh. The vast majority of the air raids and detainings are Kurds and not Daesh related. Turkey has it's own problems/fears/conflict with the Kurds and it appears that they are using this as an excuse to go after them. The US seems uninterested in speaking up about this because of the access to the bases which make our somewhat ineffective air campaign slightly more effective.

It appears that one of the most effective anti-Daesh forces is in the cross hairs of Turkey and maybe they might take on some Daesh too if they get the chance.

A continued mess.

 
Obama may very well be our greatest foreign policy President since Nixon. That's high praise I know, but not undeserved. He's been remarkably good.

 
Obama may very well be our greatest foreign policy President since Nixon. That's high praise I know, but not undeserved. He's been remarkably good.
Only if you exclude Reagan, HW, and Clinton.
No I've considered them at length.
So Obama kicking the can down the road on virtually every foreign policy issue trumps bringing down the USSR?
I wasn't comparing him to Truman. The others you mentioned did little to bring down the USSR. Certainly Reagan had almost nothing to do with it.
 
Obama may very well be our greatest foreign policy President since Nixon. That's high praise I know, but not undeserved. He's been remarkably good.
Only if you exclude Reagan, HW, and Clinton.
No I've considered them at length.
So Obama kicking the can down the road on virtually every foreign policy issue trumps bringing down the USSR?
I wasn't comparing him to Truman. The others you mentioned did little to bring down the USSR. Certainly Reagan had almost nothing to do with it.
This certainty is wildly misplaced.

 
I see another massive issue in administration policy in regards to Daesh/Syria.

Recently Turkey has stepped up to the plate- launching air raids, detaining individuals in Turkey and even some ground offensives. A big win was allowing US warplanes access to some bases. Which all sounds great and all until you really look into it.

It appears that most of this is directed at the Kurds than it is Daesh. The vast majority of the air raids and detainings are Kurds and not Daesh related. Turkey has it's own problems/fears/conflict with the Kurds and it appears that they are using this as an excuse to go after them. The US seems uninterested in speaking up about this because of the access to the bases which make our somewhat ineffective air campaign slightly more effective.

It appears that one of the most effective anti-Daesh forces is in the cross hairs of Turkey and maybe they might take on some Daesh too if they get the chance.

A continued mess.
He obviously greatly underestimated ISIS, "the JV squad". Fleeing from Iraq, coupled with a slow reaction in Syria left a big power vacuum that they were able to fill.

 
Obama may very well be our greatest foreign policy President since Nixon. That's high praise I know, but not undeserved. He's been remarkably good.
Only if you exclude Reagan, HW, and Clinton.
No I've considered them at length.
So Obama kicking the can down the road on virtually every foreign policy issue trumps bringing down the USSR?
I wasn't comparing him to Truman. The others you mentioned did little to bring down the USSR. Certainly Reagan had almost nothing to do with it.
Are you kidding? Reagan is like the Babe Ruth of foreign policy. He called his shot and delivered something no other foreign policy expert of the time believed was possible.

 
Obama may very well be our greatest foreign policy President since Nixon. That's high praise I know, but not undeserved. He's been remarkably good.
Only if you exclude Reagan, HW, and Clinton.
No I've considered them at length.
So Obama kicking the can down the road on virtually every foreign policy issue trumps bringing down the USSR?
I wasn't comparing him to Truman. The others you mentioned did little to bring down the USSR. Certainly Reagan had almost nothing to do with it.
Are you kidding? Reagan is like the Babe Ruth of foreign policy. He called his shot and delivered something no other foreign policy expert of the time believed was possible.
I simply cannot believe Tim thinks Reagan had nothing to do with that. He has to be trolling.

 
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It's constantly stunning to me that whenever a foreign power rebukes Obama in some way, that power gets praised by American conservatives, no matter who it is. Putin received all kinds of implicit compliments last year. The Imam of Iran, Khameini, long one of America's greatest villains, has received admiration in conservative circles for supposedly repudiating Obama's Iran negotiations. And now Saudi Arabia. Such is the hatred for Barack Obama that if Josef Stalin were alive and calling him out, conservatives would find a way to praise Uncle Joe.

Saudi Arabia's concern over our negotiations with Iran has very little to do with nuclear weapons. It has to do with the fact that any rapprochement with Iran by the United States represents to a threat to the Saudis as the preeminent power among Middle Eastern states, which they have held for the last 40 years or so. That's what they're concerned about.

I don't know who this professor is, but anyone who speculates that Obama's policies abroad are designed to weaken American involvement so as to pursue liberal policies as home- well, that person is a hack. I don't really need to read any more. Barack Obama is trying to make a deal with Iran because he thinks that it will help bring peace and better relations with that country. I agree with him.
Damn this was some of my best writing. I'm pretty proud of this.
Except it is full of your ridiculous over generalizations that plague so many of your posts. Have you ever thought of using the word 'some' or 'radical' in front of conservatives instead of nothing as to imply all conservatives do this? TIA.

 
History will rate Reagan's nuclear reduction deal with the Societs as far more substaintial than anything Obama has done. Tim still somehow thinks Obama deal with Climate deal with China was great which allows China a baseline to produce more CO2 than the rest of the world combined. Obama deal with China sets the bar so low as to make any meaningful future deal with China impossible. Tim grades Obama's foreign policy is extremely naive as to what is in the agreements and before they produce any positive results. I really don't get how anyone can judge this Iran deal yet. It has the possibility to be disastrous or great. But the Climate deal is easy to judge. It was just friggin ignorant iff you really buy into the global warming predictions.

 
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History will rate Reagan's nuclear reduction deal with the Societs as far more substaintial than anything Obama has done. Tim still somehow thinks Obama deal with Climate deal with China was great which allows China a baseline to produce more CO2 than the rest of the world combined. Obama deal with China sets the bar so low as to make any meaningful future deal with China impossible. Tim grades Obama's foreign policy is extremely naive as to what is in the agreements and before they produce any positive results. I really don't get how anyone can judge this Iran deal yet. It has the possibility to be disastrous or great. But the Climate deal is easy to judge. It was just friggin ignorant iff you really buy into the global warming predictions.
Under Reagan’s watch, spending on nuclear weapons research, development, testing, and production totaled $39.5 billion (in constant 1996 dollars), a 39 percent increase over the previous eight-year period.[1] The cost of environmental remediation at these sites now exceeds $6 billion annually.
Real impressive.

 
Turkey finally agreed to intervene and what do they do? Attack Kurds, our allies, in Turkey. Thanks guys but I'm guessing we acquiesced to this in return for base access. Seriously as we appear to be out we should just let Turkey unleash hell and take over the Levante themselves and support them. Back to the Ottomans and naturally this will put them face to face with the Persians, just like old times. Let's go.

 
History will rate Reagan's nuclear reduction deal with the Societs as far more substaintial than anything Obama has done. Tim still somehow thinks Obama deal with Climate deal with China was great which allows China a baseline to produce more CO2 than the rest of the world combined. Obama deal with China sets the bar so low as to make any meaningful future deal with China impossible. Tim grades Obama's foreign policy is extremely naive as to what is in the agreements and before they produce any positive results. I really don't get how anyone can judge this Iran deal yet. It has the possibility to be disastrous or great. But the Climate deal is easy to judge. It was just friggin ignorant iff you really buy into the global warming predictions.
Under Reagan’s watch, spending on nuclear weapons research, development, testing, and production totaled $39.5 billion (in constant 1996 dollars), a 39 percent increase over the previous eight-year period.[1] The cost of environmental remediation at these sites now exceeds $6 billion annually.
Real impressive.
Yes it is very impressive for the benefit realized by the world. Not to mention it was paid for by the Reagan-generated peace dividend.

 
History will rate Reagan's nuclear reduction deal with the Societs as far more substaintial than anything Obama has done. Tim still somehow thinks Obama deal with Climate deal with China was great which allows China a baseline to produce more CO2 than the rest of the world combined. Obama deal with China sets the bar so low as to make any meaningful future deal with China impossible. Tim grades Obama's foreign policy is extremely naive as to what is in the agreements and before they produce any positive results. I really don't get how anyone can judge this Iran deal yet. It has the possibility to be disastrous or great. But the Climate deal is easy to judge. It was just friggin ignorant iff you really buy into the global warming predictions.
Under Reagan’s watch, spending on nuclear weapons research, development, testing, and production totaled $39.5 billion (in constant 1996 dollars), a 39 percent increase over the previous eight-year period.[1] The cost of environmental remediation at these sites now exceeds $6 billion annually.
Real impressive.
Yes it is very impressive for the benefit realized by the world. Not to mention it was paid for by the Reagan-generated peace dividend.
:lmao:

 
It is absolutely bizzare how foreign policy is judged by many. Policies which produced horrie results are praises while policies which produced spectacular success are dismissed.

Reagan predicted the collaspe of the Soviet Union and did many things to push it over. His policies and vision were universely ridiculed by the left. After everything happened exactly like Reagan said, the left act like they knew it was inevitable all the time and all the policies and diplomacy done by Reagan are completely dismissed by many of the same people who ridiculed them.

Nixon is viewed a great success for things like opening up China and getting us out of Vietnam. In hindsight we had the Vietnam war won and the communist side was near collaspe. The people of Vietnam and neighboring countries suffered widespread murder and oppression for many decades as a result of is pulling out. Maybe it was the right thing politically, but the overall non-American body count was probably a lot worse,

Obama's Iran policy could produce a result of Iran becoming both an economic and military superpower in the region and could result in crazy Islamic radicals getting the bomb. Potentially millions and millions of people could die. Or it could bring prosperity and peace to the region. Most likely the policy will not change much because the region is a cesspool of radical extremism and it is nearly certain to blow up at some point. I seriously doubt anything positive will come out of what Obama did here, but this is also considered great.

It just seems really bizzare how policy seems to be judged solely on feelings and not on actual results.

 
It is absolutely bizzare how foreign policy is judged by many. Policies which produced horrie results are praises while policies which produced spectacular success are dismissed.

Reagan predicted the collaspe of the Soviet Union and did many things to push it over. His policies and vision were universely ridiculed by the left. After everything happened exactly like Reagan said, the left act like they knew it was inevitable all the time and all the policies and diplomacy done by Reagan are completely dismissed by many of the same people who ridiculed them.

Nixon is viewed a great success for things like opening up China and getting us out of Vietnam. In hindsight we had the Vietnam war won and the communist side was near collaspe. The people of Vietnam and neighboring countries suffered widespread murder and oppression for many decades as a result of is pulling out. Maybe it was the right thing politically, but the overall non-American body count was probably a lot worse,

Obama's Iran policy could produce a result of Iran becoming both an economic and military superpower in the region and could result in crazy Islamic radicals getting the bomb. Potentially millions and millions of people could die. Or it could bring prosperity and peace to the region. Most likely the policy will not change much because the region is a cesspool of radical extremism and it is nearly certain to blow up at some point. I seriously doubt anything positive will come out of what Obama did here, but this is also considered great.

It just seems really bizzare how policy seems to be judged solely on feelings and not on actual results.
Sounds like politics in general. Everything is the other side's fault and the other side does nothing right. It's really pathetic to see each side's use of the reasoning you stated. I haven't been in many of the political threads on here over the years and now I see why. It's people arguing in circles with no real results to back up what they're saying.That and people insulting each other.

 
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Why does pursuit of nuclear power generation automatically equate to nuclear arms? I support the idea of limiting/preventing nuclear arsenals, but not the idea of stopping/preventing nuclear power. It's complicated and it's tricky, but it's also wrong to tell a sovereign nation they can't generate electricity.

 
People caring about what Saudi Arabia thinks is like people caring about what the Kardashians think.

Both are dangerous in their own unique way. HTH.

 
It is absolutely bizzare how foreign policy is judged by many. Policies which produced horrie results are praises while policies which produced spectacular success are dismissed.

Reagan predicted the collaspe of the Soviet Union and did many things to push it over. His policies and vision were universely ridiculed by the left. After everything happened exactly like Reagan said, the left act like they knew it was inevitable all the time and all the policies and diplomacy done by Reagan are completely dismissed by many of the same people who ridiculed them.

Nixon is viewed a great success for things like opening up China and getting us out of Vietnam. In hindsight we had the Vietnam war won and the communist side was near collaspe. The people of Vietnam and neighboring countries suffered widespread murder and oppression for many decades as a result of is pulling out. Maybe it was the right thing politically, but the overall non-American body count was probably a lot worse,

Obama's Iran policy could produce a result of Iran becoming both an economic and military superpower in the region and could result in crazy Islamic radicals getting the bomb. Potentially millions and millions of people could die. Or it could bring prosperity and peace to the region. Most likely the policy will not change much because the region is a cesspool of radical extremism and it is nearly certain to blow up at some point. I seriously doubt anything positive will come out of what Obama did here, but this is also considered great.

It just seems really bizzare how policy seems to be judged solely on feelings and not on actual results.
At the risk of, according to Walking Boot, spreading North Korean propaganda, let me try and address this in some detail:

1. Reagan only predicted the collapse of the Soviet Union in the same manner as every other President since Truman. As far as it's imminent collapse, Reagan expressed the exact opposite: during all 4 of his campaigns for President, including the 2 he won, Reagan argued that in fact the Soviet Union was more powerful and more of a threat than ever. Your statement that "everything happened the way Reagan said" is also about 180 degrees removed from the truth: what Reagan said is that the USSR would continue to take over Communist regimes in Latin America and Africa (to Reagan, all Communism was monolithic and controlled by the Russians.) Reagan was vehemently opposed to all nuclear limitation treaties up to and including the first 5 years of his Presidency. Only then, after Glasnost, (which, according to all accounts, he was completely stunned by) did he agree to meet with Gorbachev in Iceland. Nonetheless he deserves credit for that meeting, and the agreement that came with it. But that agreement did not help to bring down the Soviet Union. In fact, some historians believe that Reagan's acquiescence to Glasnost actually may have delayed the collapse of the Soviet economy by a couple of years. That collapse was inevitable; after the Afghanistan invasion, Russia could no longer afford to govern over eastern Europe. No matter who had been President of the United States during the 1980s, the Soviet Union would still have collapsed. This is the simple truth, and its the reason why no non-partisan historian credits Reagan for having anything important to do with that collapse. (Though he was one of our greatest Presidents nonetheless.)

2. We did not have the Vietnam War won. Not sure where your "hindsight" comes from. We could not ever win the Vietnam War because had we invaded North Vietnam, the Chinese would have intervened, just as they did in Korea. We knew and accepted that from the beginning. The best we could have hoped for was a status quo as in Korea, but that proved to be impossible because, unlike South Korea, South Vietnam was an unstable regime, unpopular with it's citizenry. Therefore, all of our military victories in the Vietnam War were fruitless. To his credit, Nixon eventually realized this and ended the war.

Now, it is true that when we left Indochina all sorts of horrors ensued. The ones in Cambodia, in particular, might be laid at Nixon's feet, since he expanded the Vietnam War into Cambodia in order to pressure the North Vietnamese to the bargaining table (which, given the surrender of South Vietnam, turned out to be a useless gender.) However, unlike Sam Waterston screaming at his TV set in The Killing Fields, I tend to look upon this as unforeseen consequences. I've never seen a good argument for either blaming or crediting someone for actions that he was not aware of causing. People on all sides of the political spectrum like to do this all the time, but I'll abstain.

You gloss over Nixon's visit to China in a single sentence. As I explained in my rankings, it was an extraordinary, revolutionary act. No action by any President since rivals it.

3. The fallacy in your Iran argument is this: if Iran is to become an economic and military superpower (which is IMO, at best an overstatement) then the prevention of our agreement would not have stopped it. Every argument I have heard or read against the Iran deal boils down to the idea that we could have continued the status quo of economic sanctions. That idea is false, because China, Russia, and several other nations would not have continued those sanctions if no deal had been struck, and American sanctions alone were not powerful enough to cause heartache to Iran. Your statement that the "region is a cesspool of extremism" is also simplistic and does nothing to help us understand what to do there.

It's really unfortunate that so many conservatives seem to think about these issues the way that you do. Progressives have their own ideas, of course, which can be just as simplistic and dangerous IMO. And often these days the two sides are similar in expressing an growing expression of isolationism which will only make our problems worse.

 
Tim, your history is nuts. Yes, Reagan was not a big fan of the previous weapons treaties, but ither than that you were wrong. Reagan was the only person speaking of the collaspe of the Soviet Union and was viciously mocked for doing so. .

 
Tim, your history is nuts. Yes, Reagan was not a big fan of the previous weapons treaties, but ither than that you were wrong. Reagan was the only person speaking of the collaspe of the Soviet Union and was viciously mocked for doing so. .
:bs:

 
Tim, your history is nuts. Yes, Reagan was not a big fan of the previous weapons treaties, but ither than that you were wrong. Reagan was the only person speaking of the collaspe of the Soviet Union and was viciously mocked for doing so. .
:bs:
What are you about 6? Anyone alive during that time knows how it was.
I don't know why it always has to be this ridiculous. Reagan was definitely Churchillian in his attitude, his policies and his speeches. He was a voice in the wilderness, and then people gradually saw what he said had been right. Opposing arguments at the time, some dominating, were for nuclear freeze (a movement which included one Barack Obama), unilateral disarmament, and detente. They were all wrong, Reagan was right.

 
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It is absolutely bizzare how foreign policy is judged by many. Policies which produced horrie results are praises while policies which produced spectacular success are dismissed.

Reagan predicted the collaspe of the Soviet Union and did many things to push it over. His policies and vision were universely ridiculed by the left. After everything happened exactly like Reagan said, the left act like they knew it was inevitable all the time and all the policies and diplomacy done by Reagan are completely dismissed by many of the same people who ridiculed them.

Nixon is viewed a great success for things like opening up China and getting us out of Vietnam. In hindsight we had the Vietnam war won and the communist side was near collaspe. The people of Vietnam and neighboring countries suffered widespread murder and oppression for many decades as a result of is pulling out. Maybe it was the right thing politically, but the overall non-American body count was probably a lot worse,

Obama's Iran policy could produce a result of Iran becoming both an economic and military superpower in the region and could result in crazy Islamic radicals getting the bomb. Potentially millions and millions of people could die. Or it could bring prosperity and peace to the region. Most likely the policy will not change much because the region is a cesspool of radical extremism and it is nearly certain to blow up at some point. I seriously doubt anything positive will come out of what Obama did here, but this is also considered great.

It just seems really bizzare how policy seems to be judged solely on feelings and not on actual results.
At the risk of, according to Walking Boot, spreading North Korean propaganda, let me try and address this in some detail:

1. Reagan only predicted the collapse of the Soviet Union in the same manner as every other President since Truman. As far as it's imminent collapse, Reagan expressed the exact opposite: during all 4 of his campaigns for President, including the 2 he won, Reagan argued that in fact the Soviet Union was more powerful and more of a threat than ever. Your statement that "everything happened the way Reagan said" is also about 180 degrees removed from the truth: what Reagan said is that the USSR would continue to take over Communist regimes in Latin America and Africa (to Reagan, all Communism was monolithic and controlled by the Russians.) Reagan was vehemently opposed to all nuclear limitation treaties up to and including the first 5 years of his Presidency. Only then, after Glasnost, (which, according to all accounts, he was completely stunned by) did he agree to meet with Gorbachev in Iceland. Nonetheless he deserves credit for that meeting, and the agreement that came with it. But that agreement did not help to bring down the Soviet Union. In fact, some historians believe that Reagan's acquiescence to Glasnost actually may have delayed the collapse of the Soviet economy by a couple of years. That collapse was inevitable; after the Afghanistan invasion, Russia could no longer afford to govern over eastern Europe. No matter who had been President of the United States during the 1980s, the Soviet Union would still have collapsed. This is the simple truth, and its the reason why no non-partisan historian credits Reagan for having anything important to do with that collapse. (Though he was one of our greatest Presidents nonetheless.)

2. We did not have the Vietnam War won. Not sure where your "hindsight" comes from. We could not ever win the Vietnam War because had we invaded North Vietnam, the Chinese would have intervened, just as they did in Korea. We knew and accepted that from the beginning. The best we could have hoped for was a status quo as in Korea, but that proved to be impossible because, unlike South Korea, South Vietnam was an unstable regime, unpopular with it's citizenry. Therefore, all of our military victories in the Vietnam War were fruitless. To his credit, Nixon eventually realized this and ended the war.

Now, it is true that when we left Indochina all sorts of horrors ensued. The ones in Cambodia, in particular, might be laid at Nixon's feet, since he expanded the Vietnam War into Cambodia in order to pressure the North Vietnamese to the bargaining table (which, given the surrender of South Vietnam, turned out to be a useless gender.) However, unlike Sam Waterston screaming at his TV set in The Killing Fields, I tend to look upon this as unforeseen consequences. I've never seen a good argument for either blaming or crediting someone for actions that he was not aware of causing. People on all sides of the political spectrum like to do this all the time, but I'll abstain.

You gloss over Nixon's visit to China in a single sentence. As I explained in my rankings, it was an extraordinary, revolutionary act. No action by any President since rivals it.

3. The fallacy in your Iran argument is this: if Iran is to become an economic and military superpower (which is IMO, at best an overstatement) then the prevention of our agreement would not have stopped it. Every argument I have heard or read against the Iran deal boils down to the idea that we could have continued the status quo of economic sanctions. That idea is false, because China, Russia, and several other nations would not have continued those sanctions if no deal had been struck, and American sanctions alone were not powerful enough to cause heartache to Iran. Your statement that the "region is a cesspool of extremism" is also simplistic and does nothing to help us understand what to do there.

It's really unfortunate that so many conservatives seem to think about these issues the way that you do. Progressives have their own ideas, of course, which can be just as simplistic and dangerous IMO. And often these days the two sides are similar in expressing an growing expression of isolationism which will only make our problems worse.
Show me the quotes.

 
Tim, your history is nuts. Yes, Reagan was not a big fan of the previous weapons treaties, but ither than that you were wrong. Reagan was the only person speaking of the collaspe of the Soviet Union and was viciously mocked for doing so. .
:bs:
What are you about 6? Anyone alive during that time knows how it was.
I don't know why it always has to be this ridiculous. Reagan was definitely Churchillian in his attitude, his policies and his speeches. He was a voice in the wilderness, and then people gradually saw what he said had been right. Opposing arguments at the time, some dominating, were for nuclear freeze (a movement which included one Barack Obama), unilateral disarmament, and detente. They were all wrong, Reagan was right.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predictions_of_the_dissolution_of_the_Soviet_Union

U.S. Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan in a series of articles and interviews from 1975 onward discussed the possibility, indeed likelihood, of the breakup of the Soviet Empire. But Moynihan also expressed the view that liberal democracy, too, faced an uncertain future.%5B3%5D He argued in January 1975 that the Soviet Union was so weak economically, and so divided ethnically, that it could not long survive. However he said it "might have considerable time left before ethnicity breaks it up." By 1984 he argued "the Soviet idea is spent. History is moving away from it at astounding speed."%5B39%5D Some of his essays were published as Secrecy: The American Experience in 1999.
The Soviet Union would have failed with or without Reagan.

 
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The difference between Moynihan and Reagan was twofold. 1. For Reagan it was, to reference Rodney Dangerfield, "Now, while we're young!" Moynihan like a lot of people never believed the USSR would fall in his lifetime. 2.. Reagan believed that the US was specialy, the ultimate victor and destined for success, while Moynihan felt the US was also rotting from the inside. They also differed on the importance if the US pushing the Soviets over the edge. If you want a counter example, look at the sick man of Europe which was also decrepit for many of the same reasons, the Ottoman Empire, which hung on maybe an extra hundred years past their time and probably could still be around today if WW1 had not happened.

 
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And you also don't have to stop at Moynihan, there was Scoop Jackson, LBJ, JFK, Truman, that whole branch of the Democratic Party that is almost entirely gone now and which the neocons look to for influence and guidance. Of course what worked in one ideological war isn't necessary applicable in another later one but obviously that whole philosophy is no longer acceptable in Democratic circles these days.

 
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Predicting-soviet-collapse

PAUL KENGOR July 14, 2011 4:00 AM

Herb Meyer deduced from solid research what Ronald Reagan had deduced by intuition. It was 20 years ago this summer that the final disintegration of the Soviet Union rapidly unfolded. In June 1991, Boris Yeltsin was freely elected president of the Russian Republic, with Mikhail Gorbachev clinging to power atop the precarious USSR. In August,

Communist hardliners attempted a dramatic coup against Gorbachev, prompting a stunning succession of declarations of independence by Soviet republics, with seven of them breaking away in August alone, and four more following through mid-December. The writing was on the wall not the Berlin Wall, which had collapsed two years earlier, but the graveyard of history, which would soon register the USSR as deceased.

It was December 25, 1991, the day the West celebrates Christmas a celebration the Communists had tried to ban that Gorbachev announced his resignation, turning out the lights on an Evil Empire that had produced countless tens of millions of corpses. Historians debate the credit that goes to various players for that collapse, from Gorbachev to Ronald Reagan, Pope John Paul II, Margaret Thatcher, Lech Walesa, and Vaclav Havel, to name a few. These are the people who get books written about them. But there were many behind-the-scenes players who performed critical roles that have never seen the light of a historians word processor.

Here Id like to note one such player: Herb Meyer. Specifically, Id like to highlight a fascinating memo Meyer wrote eight years before the Soviet collapse. From 1981 to 1985, Meyer was special assistant to the director of central intelligence, Bill Casey, and vice chairman of the CIAs National Intelligence Council. In the fall of 1983, he crafted a classified memo titled, Why Is the World So Dangerous? Addressed to Casey and the deputy director, John McMahon, it had a larger (though limited) audience within the intelligence community and the Reagan administration, including President Reagan himself.

Later, it would earn Meyer the prestigious National Intelligence Distinguished Service Medal. Even so, the memo has eluded historians, which is a shame. It ought to rank among the most remarkable documents of the Cold War. Meyer began his eight-page memo of November 30, 1983, by describing a new stage that had opened in the struggle between the free world and the Soviet Union.

It was a direction favorable to the United States. He listed positive changes in America that suddenly had the USSR downbeat. Not only was the U.S. economy recovering, but Meyer foresaw a boom ahead, with the only argument having to do with its breadth and duration. Meyer listed seven signs of Americas surge before providing even more symptoms of Soviet decline a decline that was unrecognized by most pundits and academic Sovietologists.

His insights into what he saw as an imminent Soviet collapse were prescient. After 66 years of Communist rule, the USSR had failed utterly to become a country, with not one major nationality group that is content with the present, Russian-controlled arrangement. It was hard to imagine how the worlds last empire can survive into the twenty-first century except under highly favorable conditions of economics and demographics conditions that do not, and will not, exist. The Soviet economy, Meyer insisted, is heading toward calamity.

Meyer nailed not only the Soviet Unions economy but also its demographic nightmare. Here, he was way ahead of the curve, reporting compelling information on Russian birthrates, which were in free-fall. He recorded an astounding figure: Russian women, according to recent, highly credible research, average six abortions. As for the Soviet Bloc, Meyer didnt miss that either. The East European satellites are becoming more and more difficult to control, he wrote, emphasizing that it wasnt merely Poland that was in revolt.

[O]ther satellites may be closer to their own political boiling points than we realize. In sum, concluded Meyer, time is not on the Soviet Unions side. He summed up with two predictions, nearly identically worded, as if to let the reader know he knew the magnitude of what he was saying: (1) if present trends continue, were going to win the Cold War; and (2) if present trends continue we will win. He quoted President Reagans May 1981 Notre Dame speech, where Reagan proclaimed that history would dismiss Soviet Communism as some bizarre chapter in human history whose last pages are even now being written.

Meyer felt that Reagan was absolutely correct, adding that the USSR was entering its final pages. His memo projected a window no longer than 20 years. Herb Meyer was dead on. I know of no other Cold War document as accurate as this one. I recently talked to Meyer about his memo. He had no idea it had been declassified until someone sent it to him last month. I was astonished, Meyer wrote me in an e-mail, and its a weird feeling to read something youd written decades ago and hadnt seen since.

Meyer remembered well certain elements of the memo, particularly the Cold War predictions. He also had not forgotten the memos reception. Within the intelligence community, there was a general feeling that Meyer had lost his mind. That was just the start of the backlash. The memo was leaked to syndicated columnists Evans & Novak, who devoted a column to it. There was subsequent uproar throughout Washington, which made Meyer very nervous. He was summoned to his bosss office. Herb, right now youve got the smallest fan club in Washington,

Bill Casey told him grimly. As Meyer turned pale, Casey laughed: Relax. Its me and the president. Today, Meyer says with a chuckle: If youre going to have a small fan club thats it. CIA director Casey, like President Reagan, was committed to placing a dagger in the chest of Soviet Communism. He was pleased, and he encouraged Meyer. Meyer recalls: My orders were, in effect, to keep going.

Meyer particularly remembers Reagans being shaken by the statement about Russian women averaging six abortions. To Meyers knowledge, Reagan never went public with that astounding statistic. . . . Come to think of it, no one except some Russians ever talked about it. Of all the items in the memo, that one remains the most far-reaching. Demographers today foresee Russia plummeting in population from 150 million to possibly 100 million by 2050.

Meyers memo is a prophetic warning that isnt finished. For Russians, the internal implosion isnt over. When we look back at the Cold War, we remember big names and big statements and documents.

Theres nary a college course on the Cold War that excludes George Kennans seminal Long Telegram, sent from the U.S. embassy in Moscow in February 1946. Kennans memo prophetically captured what the free world faced from the USSR at the start of the Cold War, forecasting a long struggle ahead.

Herb Meyers November 1983 memo likewise prophetically captured what the free world faced from the USSR, but this time nearing the end of the Cold War, uniquely forecasting a long struggle about to close with victory. George Kennans memo is remembered in our textbooks and our college lectures. Herb Meyers memo merits similar treatment.

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/271828/predicting-soviet-collapse-paul-kengor

 
tim has a lot of opinions, almost all intellectually respectable and reasonably well-thought out, if in the midst of a dialectic process that pejoratively might be known as "waffling."

This bit about Reagan and the Cold War is leftist tripe; however, and any certainty he has about Reagan and his non-role in the Cold War is certainly anti-consensus, if I may understate a bit. Nothing less than a leftist/contrarian hijack of history backs this up.

 
Rockaction, I have tried to ignore propaganda from both sides and come up with my own conclusions. Granted that's not always easy. In the case of Reagan, we're talking about a guy I happen to have a very high opinion of. I'm not some leftist looking to bring him down. I would love to give him credit for ending the Cold War. The problem is I don't know what he did.

There are some people out there like Lech Walesa, Pope John Paul II, and George Soros; I can tell you exactly what they did and hoe it helped to bring down the Iron Curtain. But with Reagan there's no direct consequence. So far as I can tell, he was just lucky enough to be President when the whole thing started to collapse. If you have a specific argument to contradict this Id love to hear it.

 
Rockaction, I have tried to ignore propaganda from both sides and come up with my own conclusions. Granted that's not always easy. In the case of Reagan, we're talking about a guy I happen to have a very high opinion of. I'm not some leftist looking to bring him down. I would love to give him credit for ending the Cold War. The problem is I don't know what he did.

There are some people out there like Lech Walesa, Pope John Paul II, and George Soros; I can tell you exactly what they did and hoe it helped to bring down the Iron Curtain. But with Reagan there's no direct consequence. So far as I can tell, he was just lucky enough to be President when the whole thing started to collapse. If you have a specific argument to contradict this Id love to hear it.
Tim, over the years there has been many threads and posts about Reagan's role in this. You choose to ignore them like you do with other topics.

 
Rockaction, I have tried to ignore propaganda from both sides and come up with my own conclusions. Granted that's not always easy. In the case of Reagan, we're talking about a guy I happen to have a very high opinion of. I'm not some leftist looking to bring him down. I would love to give him credit for ending the Cold War. The problem is I don't know what he did.

There are some people out there like Lech Walesa, Pope John Paul II, and George Soros; I can tell you exactly what they did and hoe it helped to bring down the Iron Curtain. But with Reagan there's no direct consequence. So far as I can tell, he was just lucky enough to be President when the whole thing started to collapse. If you have a specific argument to contradict this Id love to hear it.
Tim, over the years there has been many threads and posts about Reagan's role in this. You choose to ignore them like you do with other topics.
Can YOU be more specific about Reagan's role?
 
Rockaction, I have tried to ignore propaganda from both sides and come up with my own conclusions. Granted that's not always easy. In the case of Reagan, we're talking about a guy I happen to have a very high opinion of. I'm not some leftist looking to bring him down. I would love to give him credit for ending the Cold War. The problem is I don't know what he did.

There are some people out there like Lech Walesa, Pope John Paul II, and George Soros; I can tell you exactly what they did and hoe it helped to bring down the Iron Curtain. But with Reagan there's no direct consequence. So far as I can tell, he was just lucky enough to be President when the whole thing started to collapse. If you have a specific argument to contradict this Id love to hear it.
Tim, over the years there has been many threads and posts about Reagan's role in this. You choose to ignore them like you do with other topics.
Can YOU be more specific about Reagan's role?
Can YOU comprehend any of the posts over the years on this topic which you have participated in?

 
I can be more specific about Reagan's role, and this is off the top of my head:

SDI

Increased military spending

Grenada and the end of detente and the notion of containment

Speech to dissidents at Berlin Wall

The unbridled hubris of declaring that communism would inherently fail, a postulation much derided by critics at the time

Other than Walsea and Gorbachev, what other statesman could have possibly influenced world events as much as Reagan, given as much criticism as Reagan got in the West?

And can YOU give consensus about politically elected leaders who determined the outcome of the Cold War among leaders not within the Bloc?

 

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