US Healthcare Business Stinks Thread II (1 Viewer)

[matttyl]

There are no easy answers when it comes to LTC coverage or options. The baby boomer generation will roughly double the LTC demand side over the next ~10-20 years, and they had fewer children than their parents did, meaning fewer potential informal caregivers (and what gen Xer or millennial wants or can afford to take on that responsibility/burden?).

The LTC insurance landscape has changed drastically over the past 10-15 years with many large carriers simply leaving the market completely.

Thanks @matttyl - Sorry I'm late to the game on this. I'm a little gunshy of posting in another medical thread.

I'm assuming you're in this area of insurance with Long Term Care? Thanks for sharing your expertise.

I don't doubt there aren't easy answers. But what advice would you give to a friend in their 60's on what to do?

Yes, I’m a life and health insurance agent. Have been for 20+ years now. When I first got into the industry, right out of school in fact, LTCi was the hottest thing and I sold quite a bit of it. Back then they were “stand alone” plans - means all they did was provide LTC in the future if you needed it. They didn’t build any “value”, so if you never needed LTC (or as is often the case you didn’t need it for longer than the policy’s waiting period), it didn’t provide any benefit other than peace of mind.

Fast forward 10-15 years when those insurance pools starting making claims, and those claims were not only far more frequent than insurance companies had predicted, but also larger on average and the carriers were paying more money out in claims than they were taking in from premiums. In fact, I’ve seen stats showing that carriers had a loss ratio of over 150% on average - meaning for every dollar they took in from premiums, they were paying out $1.50 in claims. It doesn’t take a math whiz to know that wasn’t sustainable, so carriers did the only things they could. Raise rates. Drastically so. This created a “death spiral” for some insurance pools where those healthy, and perhaps young enough, to find alternate coverage with another carrier did so, leaving the remaining pool on average older and sicker. Many carriers stopped selling those policies completely, including the ones I sold most often.

Anyway, the market has changed, and the LTC policies I sell now are very different - mostly built off either a life insurance or even annuity chassis - I described one above but can get into more detail if you like. Those are very interesting, and have the advantage of not having to worry about an increasing premium down the road.

I recently saw an annuity product out there where you put $X into it as a one time premium, it grows at a pretty low interest rate, like 2% - but if you ever need LTC it could provide up to 4X back to you for it. So $100k in could provide up to $400k out - and if you never needed LTC you or your heirs get the $100k (plus 2% compounding interest) back, tax advantaged.

Anyway, I’m rambling now. My advice would be to have a plan, and share that plan. It’s no different than retirement planning, or estate planning. In fact, it’s a part of retirement/estate planning in my eyes as it’s the largest threat to that retirement/estate. Once you have that plan - either via some insurance product, self pay, or for many Medicaid, share that plan with family. Make sure they know your thoughts and wishes, and if you’re lucky, obtain their blessing. You don’t want to go into it with the thought of - if it ever comes to that, “I’ll just go outside and sit on a stump until my time comes” as one prospect of mine said years ago in front of his wife, to her utter disbelief.

If folks (55+ with assets to protect and a family they’d like to pass some legacy onto) are looking specifically into obtaining a LTCi product - in today’s market I’d have them look at a life policy with LTC rider. Either they’ll die in the future without having needed LTC, and the life policy pays a death benefit to heirs - or they’ll need LTC in which case the policies death benefit would pay for it (and lower that death benefit dollar for dollar).

As one last bit of a sales pitch, but very informative to those in their 60s - here’s a stat that’s a few years old, but still pretty accurate. An American turning 65 today has a 50/50 shot of ever needing LTC in their remaining lifetime. Of those that do need it, half need it less than 90 days and half need it for longer than that. So you have a 25% shot of needing LTC for longer than 3 months. Of those that do - half need it for 2+ years. So 12.5%, roughly. Would 2+ years at $300-500 per day for that care ruin your retirement/estate plan?

Good post. I was just reading about the Centene stock decline due to the company pulling its yearly guidance.

The company cited a significantly higher morbidity rate than projected. Not good for the state of Healthcare or this style of insurance provider going forward.

Sounds like the only option left is to raise rates.

Unfortunately that last sentence is true. For the carriers it’s either that or go under completely, which obviously is the last resort.

Really dumb insurance question. If an insurance company does go under, are you just out of luck after paying in all the premiums?

I assume so, but never had really heard much on it.

No, you’re not out of luck at all. You have protection. Much like FDIC for your bank deposits, and SIPC for investments (which are federal level protections), insurance products have protections, only they are at the state level (here in Virginia it’s the BOI, or bureau of insurance).

Keep in mind that it’s extremely rare, not sure a single decent size carrier (if any carrier) has gone under since 2008. If it did, the state would come in and work out what’s best for the consumer - be it a takeover by another carrier, or as a last resort, step in themselves to take over the policies.

 

[Joe Bryant]

There are no easy answers when it comes to LTC coverage or options. The baby boomer generation will roughly double the LTC demand side over the next ~10-20 years, and they had fewer children than their parents did, meaning fewer potential informal caregivers (and what gen Xer or millennial wants or can afford to take on that responsibility/burden?).

The LTC insurance landscape has changed drastically over the past 10-15 years with many large carriers simply leaving the market completely.

Thanks @matttyl - Sorry I'm late to the game on this. I'm a little gunshy of posting in another medical thread.

I'm assuming you're in this area of insurance with Long Term Care? Thanks for sharing your expertise.

I don't doubt there aren't easy answers. But what advice would you give to a friend in their 60's on what to do?

Yes, I’m a life and health insurance agent. Have been for 20+ years now. When I first got into the industry, right out of school in fact, LTCi was the hottest thing and I sold quite a bit of it. Back then they were “stand alone” plans - means all they did was provide LTC in the future if you needed it. They didn’t build any “value”, so if you never needed LTC (or as is often the case you didn’t need it for longer than the policy’s waiting period), it didn’t provide any benefit other than peace of mind.

Fast forward 10-15 years when those insurance pools starting making claims, and those claims were not only far more frequent than insurance companies had predicted, but also larger on average and the carriers were paying more money out in claims than they were taking in from premiums. In fact, I’ve seen stats showing that carriers had a loss ratio of over 150% on average - meaning for every dollar they took in from premiums, they were paying out $1.50 in claims. It doesn’t take a math whiz to know that wasn’t sustainable, so carriers did the only things they could. Raise rates. Drastically so. This created a “death spiral” for some insurance pools where those healthy, and perhaps young enough, to find alternate coverage with another carrier did so, leaving the remaining pool on average older and sicker. Many carriers stopped selling those policies completely, including the ones I sold most often.

Anyway, the market has changed, and the LTC policies I sell now are very different - mostly built off either a life insurance or even annuity chassis - I described one above but can get into more detail if you like. Those are very interesting, and have the advantage of not having to worry about an increasing premium down the road.

I recently saw an annuity product out there where you put $X into it as a one time premium, it grows at a pretty low interest rate, like 2% - but if you ever need LTC it could provide up to 4X back to you for it. So $100k in could provide up to $400k out - and if you never needed LTC you or your heirs get the $100k (plus 2% compounding interest) back, tax advantaged.

Anyway, I’m rambling now. My advice would be to have a plan, and share that plan. It’s no different than retirement planning, or estate planning. In fact, it’s a part of retirement/estate planning in my eyes as it’s the largest threat to that retirement/estate. Once you have that plan - either via some insurance product, self pay, or for many Medicaid, share that plan with family. Make sure they know your thoughts and wishes, and if you’re lucky, obtain their blessing. You don’t want to go into it with the thought of - if it ever comes to that, “I’ll just go outside and sit on a stump until my time comes” as one prospect of mine said years ago in front of his wife, to her utter disbelief.

If folks (55+ with assets to protect and a family they’d like to pass some legacy onto) are looking specifically into obtaining a LTCi product - in today’s market I’d have them look at a life policy with LTC rider. Either they’ll die in the future without having needed LTC, and the life policy pays a death benefit to heirs - or they’ll need LTC in which case the policies death benefit would pay for it (and lower that death benefit dollar for dollar).

As one last bit of a sales pitch, but very informative to those in their 60s - here’s a stat that’s a few years old, but still pretty accurate. An American turning 65 today has a 50/50 shot of ever needing LTC in their remaining lifetime. Of those that do need it, half need it less than 90 days and half need it for longer than that. So you have a 25% shot of needing LTC for longer than 3 months. Of those that do - half need it for 2+ years. So 12.5%, roughly. Would 2+ years at $300-500 per day for that care ruin your retirement/estate plan?

Good post. I was just reading about the Centene stock decline due to the company pulling its yearly guidance.

The company cited a significantly higher morbidity rate than projected. Not good for the state of Healthcare or this style of insurance provider going forward.

Sounds like the only option left is to raise rates.

Unfortunately that last sentence is true. For the carriers it’s either that or go under completely, which obviously is the last resort.

Really dumb insurance question. If an insurance company does go under, are you just out of luck after paying in all the premiums?

I assume so, but never had really heard much on it.

No, you’re not out of luck at all. You have protection. Much like FDIC for your bank deposits, and SIPC for investments (which are federal level protections), insurance products have protections, only they are at the state level (here in Virginia it’s the BOI, or bureau of insurance).

Keep in mind that it’s extremely rare, not sure a single decent size carrier (if any carrier) has gone under since 2008. If it did, the state would come in and work out what’s best for the consumer - be it a takeover by another carrier, or as a last resort, step in themselves to take over the policies.

Great. Thanks. Was wondering if there was an FDIC like component.

So would you say even with the worrisome condition with carriers getting out of the LTC business, you still feel it's relatively safe to buy this type of insurance?

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

The Senate version of President _____ massive tax and immigration spending plan would wipe out many of the strides made by the Affordable Care Act in reducing the number of uninsured Americans, resulting in at least 17 million Americans losing their health coverage, according to nonpartisan estimates and experts.
The bill, which narrowly passed the Senate on Tuesday and now heads back to the House, would effectively accomplish what Republicans have long failed to do: unwind many of the key components of the ACA, President _____________ signature domestic achievement, which dramatically increased the number of Americans with access to health insurance.
To start, the Congressional Budget Office estimated that the Senate version of the bill would result in 11.8 million more uninsured in 2034, mostly because of Medicaid cuts, compared with 10.9 million if the House version became law.
In addition, both versions of the bill would allow pandemic-era enhanced subsidies for health insurance through ACA marketplaces to expire at the end of the year, sharply raising out-of-pocket costs for millions of Americans. The CBO estimates that 4.2 million people would lose insurance as a result. An additional 1 million are likely to become uninsured because of a combination of other ______ administration cuts and the ___________ legislation, according to the CBO.
The bill also includes other, less-noticed changes that over several years would make it harder for states to maintain the ACA’s Medicaid expansion at existing levels, which currently cover some 20 million Americans, according to KFF, a health policy research organization.



WAPO

 

[Joe Bryant]

Please keep the political zingers out of this thread. It may be impossible to discuss the topic without it but let's try.

 

[Nugget]

I hit my out of pocket max for the year of $7k last week. I'm going to start looking to proactively consume as much health care as possible for the next 6 months.

 

[matttyl]

There are no easy answers when it comes to LTC coverage or options. The baby boomer generation will roughly double the LTC demand side over the next ~10-20 years, and they had fewer children than their parents did, meaning fewer potential informal caregivers (and what gen Xer or millennial wants or can afford to take on that responsibility/burden?).

The LTC insurance landscape has changed drastically over the past 10-15 years with many large carriers simply leaving the market completely.

Thanks @matttyl - Sorry I'm late to the game on this. I'm a little gunshy of posting in another medical thread.

I'm assuming you're in this area of insurance with Long Term Care? Thanks for sharing your expertise.

I don't doubt there aren't easy answers. But what advice would you give to a friend in their 60's on what to do?

Yes, I’m a life and health insurance agent. Have been for 20+ years now. When I first got into the industry, right out of school in fact, LTCi was the hottest thing and I sold quite a bit of it. Back then they were “stand alone” plans - means all they did was provide LTC in the future if you needed it. They didn’t build any “value”, so if you never needed LTC (or as is often the case you didn’t need it for longer than the policy’s waiting period), it didn’t provide any benefit other than peace of mind.

Fast forward 10-15 years when those insurance pools starting making claims, and those claims were not only far more frequent than insurance companies had predicted, but also larger on average and the carriers were paying more money out in claims than they were taking in from premiums. In fact, I’ve seen stats showing that carriers had a loss ratio of over 150% on average - meaning for every dollar they took in from premiums, they were paying out $1.50 in claims. It doesn’t take a math whiz to know that wasn’t sustainable, so carriers did the only things they could. Raise rates. Drastically so. This created a “death spiral” for some insurance pools where those healthy, and perhaps young enough, to find alternate coverage with another carrier did so, leaving the remaining pool on average older and sicker. Many carriers stopped selling those policies completely, including the ones I sold most often.

Anyway, the market has changed, and the LTC policies I sell now are very different - mostly built off either a life insurance or even annuity chassis - I described one above but can get into more detail if you like. Those are very interesting, and have the advantage of not having to worry about an increasing premium down the road.

I recently saw an annuity product out there where you put $X into it as a one time premium, it grows at a pretty low interest rate, like 2% - but if you ever need LTC it could provide up to 4X back to you for it. So $100k in could provide up to $400k out - and if you never needed LTC you or your heirs get the $100k (plus 2% compounding interest) back, tax advantaged.

Anyway, I’m rambling now. My advice would be to have a plan, and share that plan. It’s no different than retirement planning, or estate planning. In fact, it’s a part of retirement/estate planning in my eyes as it’s the largest threat to that retirement/estate. Once you have that plan - either via some insurance product, self pay, or for many Medicaid, share that plan with family. Make sure they know your thoughts and wishes, and if you’re lucky, obtain their blessing. You don’t want to go into it with the thought of - if it ever comes to that, “I’ll just go outside and sit on a stump until my time comes” as one prospect of mine said years ago in front of his wife, to her utter disbelief.

If folks (55+ with assets to protect and a family they’d like to pass some legacy onto) are looking specifically into obtaining a LTCi product - in today’s market I’d have them look at a life policy with LTC rider. Either they’ll die in the future without having needed LTC, and the life policy pays a death benefit to heirs - or they’ll need LTC in which case the policies death benefit would pay for it (and lower that death benefit dollar for dollar).

As one last bit of a sales pitch, but very informative to those in their 60s - here’s a stat that’s a few years old, but still pretty accurate. An American turning 65 today has a 50/50 shot of ever needing LTC in their remaining lifetime. Of those that do need it, half need it less than 90 days and half need it for longer than that. So you have a 25% shot of needing LTC for longer than 3 months. Of those that do - half need it for 2+ years. So 12.5%, roughly. Would 2+ years at $300-500 per day for that care ruin your retirement/estate plan?

Good post. I was just reading about the Centene stock decline due to the company pulling its yearly guidance.

The company cited a significantly higher morbidity rate than projected. Not good for the state of Healthcare or this style of insurance provider going forward.

Sounds like the only option left is to raise rates.

Unfortunately that last sentence is true. For the carriers it’s either that or go under completely, which obviously is the last resort.

Really dumb insurance question. If an insurance company does go under, are you just out of luck after paying in all the premiums?

I assume so, but never had really heard much on it.

No, you’re not out of luck at all. You have protection. Much like FDIC for your bank deposits, and SIPC for investments (which are federal level protections), insurance products have protections, only they are at the state level (here in Virginia it’s the BOI, or bureau of insurance).

Keep in mind that it’s extremely rare, not sure a single decent size carrier (if any carrier) has gone under since 2008. If it did, the state would come in and work out what’s best for the consumer - be it a takeover by another carrier, or as a last resort, step in themselves to take over the policies.

Great. Thanks. Was wondering if there was an FDIC like component.

So would you say even with the worrisome condition with carriers getting out of the LTC business, you still feel it's relatively safe to buy this type of insurance?

To clarify, when I said carriers were getting out of the business - what I mean is that they aren’t selling new policies. They are still contractually obligated on the existing ones. So yes, I’d say people are safe to still buy them from remaking carriers now, just from a well known and highly rated one.

 

[DA RAIDERS]

prepare for life after medicaid

Woof. That is gonna be real terrible for a lot of folks. Boomers are gonna run down their assets, transferring none to their kids, while impoverishing their kids to pay for their care. Not to mention the detrimental impact on the boomer's grandkids, who should be seeing the benefits of wealth transfer but instead will just inherit a planet with rising sea levels, AI taking jobs, and no personal privacy.

So they should buy a LTC policy to transfer that risk. I’m not saying it’s easy (or cheap), but neither is the alternative you describe.

LTC is pretty simple in concept, it’s just insurance like any other. If you own a house (even without a mortgage), you have insurance on it, or should. The ACA, even with its faults, mandated Americans have something we all should have had anyway (health insurance). Most states now mandate if you operate a vehicle you have insurance on it to mitigate that risk.

I would imagine that LTC insurance is prohibitively expensive for those in their 60s and 70s. What are the prices / coverage we're talking about?

Huge range in what we’re talking about here. Back in the day I could sell a “stand alone” LTC policy to a fairly healthy couple in that age range for $4-9k a year which would cover $150-200 per day, and that 150-200 would grow each year (compounded or simple inflation) of 3 or 5%.

Today the big thing in LTCi is via a life policy. You buy a $500k whole life policy with an LTC rider - if you never need LTC your beneficiary gets the $500k. If you do need it, it’s paid for out of the future death bed it, reducing it dollar for dollar. So you’ll get your money back one way or another, or your heirs will. But then folks will say that permanent life insurance is a rip off and we’re back to square one.

What if they’re in their 80s?

 

[Joe Bryant]

There are no easy answers when it comes to LTC coverage or options. The baby boomer generation will roughly double the LTC demand side over the next ~10-20 years, and they had fewer children than their parents did, meaning fewer potential informal caregivers (and what gen Xer or millennial wants or can afford to take on that responsibility/burden?).

The LTC insurance landscape has changed drastically over the past 10-15 years with many large carriers simply leaving the market completely.

Thanks @matttyl - Sorry I'm late to the game on this. I'm a little gunshy of posting in another medical thread.

I'm assuming you're in this area of insurance with Long Term Care? Thanks for sharing your expertise.

I don't doubt there aren't easy answers. But what advice would you give to a friend in their 60's on what to do?

Yes, I’m a life and health insurance agent. Have been for 20+ years now. When I first got into the industry, right out of school in fact, LTCi was the hottest thing and I sold quite a bit of it. Back then they were “stand alone” plans - means all they did was provide LTC in the future if you needed it. They didn’t build any “value”, so if you never needed LTC (or as is often the case you didn’t need it for longer than the policy’s waiting period), it didn’t provide any benefit other than peace of mind.

Fast forward 10-15 years when those insurance pools starting making claims, and those claims were not only far more frequent than insurance companies had predicted, but also larger on average and the carriers were paying more money out in claims than they were taking in from premiums. In fact, I’ve seen stats showing that carriers had a loss ratio of over 150% on average - meaning for every dollar they took in from premiums, they were paying out $1.50 in claims. It doesn’t take a math whiz to know that wasn’t sustainable, so carriers did the only things they could. Raise rates. Drastically so. This created a “death spiral” for some insurance pools where those healthy, and perhaps young enough, to find alternate coverage with another carrier did so, leaving the remaining pool on average older and sicker. Many carriers stopped selling those policies completely, including the ones I sold most often.

Anyway, the market has changed, and the LTC policies I sell now are very different - mostly built off either a life insurance or even annuity chassis - I described one above but can get into more detail if you like. Those are very interesting, and have the advantage of not having to worry about an increasing premium down the road.

I recently saw an annuity product out there where you put $X into it as a one time premium, it grows at a pretty low interest rate, like 2% - but if you ever need LTC it could provide up to 4X back to you for it. So $100k in could provide up to $400k out - and if you never needed LTC you or your heirs get the $100k (plus 2% compounding interest) back, tax advantaged.

Anyway, I’m rambling now. My advice would be to have a plan, and share that plan. It’s no different than retirement planning, or estate planning. In fact, it’s a part of retirement/estate planning in my eyes as it’s the largest threat to that retirement/estate. Once you have that plan - either via some insurance product, self pay, or for many Medicaid, share that plan with family. Make sure they know your thoughts and wishes, and if you’re lucky, obtain their blessing. You don’t want to go into it with the thought of - if it ever comes to that, “I’ll just go outside and sit on a stump until my time comes” as one prospect of mine said years ago in front of his wife, to her utter disbelief.

If folks (55+ with assets to protect and a family they’d like to pass some legacy onto) are looking specifically into obtaining a LTCi product - in today’s market I’d have them look at a life policy with LTC rider. Either they’ll die in the future without having needed LTC, and the life policy pays a death benefit to heirs - or they’ll need LTC in which case the policies death benefit would pay for it (and lower that death benefit dollar for dollar).

As one last bit of a sales pitch, but very informative to those in their 60s - here’s a stat that’s a few years old, but still pretty accurate. An American turning 65 today has a 50/50 shot of ever needing LTC in their remaining lifetime. Of those that do need it, half need it less than 90 days and half need it for longer than that. So you have a 25% shot of needing LTC for longer than 3 months. Of those that do - half need it for 2+ years. So 12.5%, roughly. Would 2+ years at $300-500 per day for that care ruin your retirement/estate plan?

Good post. I was just reading about the Centene stock decline due to the company pulling its yearly guidance.

The company cited a significantly higher morbidity rate than projected. Not good for the state of Healthcare or this style of insurance provider going forward.

Sounds like the only option left is to raise rates.

Unfortunately that last sentence is true. For the carriers it’s either that or go under completely, which obviously is the last resort.

Really dumb insurance question. If an insurance company does go under, are you just out of luck after paying in all the premiums?

I assume so, but never had really heard much on it.

No, you’re not out of luck at all. You have protection. Much like FDIC for your bank deposits, and SIPC for investments (which are federal level protections), insurance products have protections, only they are at the state level (here in Virginia it’s the BOI, or bureau of insurance).

Keep in mind that it’s extremely rare, not sure a single decent size carrier (if any carrier) has gone under since 2008. If it did, the state would come in and work out what’s best for the consumer - be it a takeover by another carrier, or as a last resort, step in themselves to take over the policies.

Great. Thanks. Was wondering if there was an FDIC like component.

So would you say even with the worrisome condition with carriers getting out of the LTC business, you still feel it's relatively safe to buy this type of insurance?

To clarify, when I said carriers were getting out of the business - what I mean is that they aren’t selling new policies. They are still contractually obligated on the existing ones. So yes, I’d say people are safe to still buy them from remaking carriers now, just from a well known and highly rated one.

Thanks. Anytime I hear someone talk about an insurance company "going under" even as a last resort, that gets my attention.

Also, what's a remaking carrier?

 

[matttyl]

There are no easy answers when it comes to LTC coverage or options. The baby boomer generation will roughly double the LTC demand side over the next ~10-20 years, and they had fewer children than their parents did, meaning fewer potential informal caregivers (and what gen Xer or millennial wants or can afford to take on that responsibility/burden?).

The LTC insurance landscape has changed drastically over the past 10-15 years with many large carriers simply leaving the market completely.

Thanks @matttyl - Sorry I'm late to the game on this. I'm a little gunshy of posting in another medical thread.

I'm assuming you're in this area of insurance with Long Term Care? Thanks for sharing your expertise.

I don't doubt there aren't easy answers. But what advice would you give to a friend in their 60's on what to do?

Yes, I’m a life and health insurance agent. Have been for 20+ years now. When I first got into the industry, right out of school in fact, LTCi was the hottest thing and I sold quite a bit of it. Back then they were “stand alone” plans - means all they did was provide LTC in the future if you needed it. They didn’t build any “value”, so if you never needed LTC (or as is often the case you didn’t need it for longer than the policy’s waiting period), it didn’t provide any benefit other than peace of mind.

Fast forward 10-15 years when those insurance pools starting making claims, and those claims were not only far more frequent than insurance companies had predicted, but also larger on average and the carriers were paying more money out in claims than they were taking in from premiums. In fact, I’ve seen stats showing that carriers had a loss ratio of over 150% on average - meaning for every dollar they took in from premiums, they were paying out $1.50 in claims. It doesn’t take a math whiz to know that wasn’t sustainable, so carriers did the only things they could. Raise rates. Drastically so. This created a “death spiral” for some insurance pools where those healthy, and perhaps young enough, to find alternate coverage with another carrier did so, leaving the remaining pool on average older and sicker. Many carriers stopped selling those policies completely, including the ones I sold most often.

Anyway, the market has changed, and the LTC policies I sell now are very different - mostly built off either a life insurance or even annuity chassis - I described one above but can get into more detail if you like. Those are very interesting, and have the advantage of not having to worry about an increasing premium down the road.

I recently saw an annuity product out there where you put $X into it as a one time premium, it grows at a pretty low interest rate, like 2% - but if you ever need LTC it could provide up to 4X back to you for it. So $100k in could provide up to $400k out - and if you never needed LTC you or your heirs get the $100k (plus 2% compounding interest) back, tax advantaged.

Anyway, I’m rambling now. My advice would be to have a plan, and share that plan. It’s no different than retirement planning, or estate planning. In fact, it’s a part of retirement/estate planning in my eyes as it’s the largest threat to that retirement/estate. Once you have that plan - either via some insurance product, self pay, or for many Medicaid, share that plan with family. Make sure they know your thoughts and wishes, and if you’re lucky, obtain their blessing. You don’t want to go into it with the thought of - if it ever comes to that, “I’ll just go outside and sit on a stump until my time comes” as one prospect of mine said years ago in front of his wife, to her utter disbelief.

If folks (55+ with assets to protect and a family they’d like to pass some legacy onto) are looking specifically into obtaining a LTCi product - in today’s market I’d have them look at a life policy with LTC rider. Either they’ll die in the future without having needed LTC, and the life policy pays a death benefit to heirs - or they’ll need LTC in which case the policies death benefit would pay for it (and lower that death benefit dollar for dollar).

As one last bit of a sales pitch, but very informative to those in their 60s - here’s a stat that’s a few years old, but still pretty accurate. An American turning 65 today has a 50/50 shot of ever needing LTC in their remaining lifetime. Of those that do need it, half need it less than 90 days and half need it for longer than that. So you have a 25% shot of needing LTC for longer than 3 months. Of those that do - half need it for 2+ years. So 12.5%, roughly. Would 2+ years at $300-500 per day for that care ruin your retirement/estate plan?

Good post. I was just reading about the Centene stock decline due to the company pulling its yearly guidance.

The company cited a significantly higher morbidity rate than projected. Not good for the state of Healthcare or this style of insurance provider going forward.

Sounds like the only option left is to raise rates.

Unfortunately that last sentence is true. For the carriers it’s either that or go under completely, which obviously is the last resort.

Really dumb insurance question. If an insurance company does go under, are you just out of luck after paying in all the premiums?

I assume so, but never had really heard much on it.

No, you’re not out of luck at all. You have protection. Much like FDIC for your bank deposits, and SIPC for investments (which are federal level protections), insurance products have protections, only they are at the state level (here in Virginia it’s the BOI, or bureau of insurance).

Keep in mind that it’s extremely rare, not sure a single decent size carrier (if any carrier) has gone under since 2008. If it did, the state would come in and work out what’s best for the consumer - be it a takeover by another carrier, or as a last resort, step in themselves to take over the policies.

Great. Thanks. Was wondering if there was an FDIC like component.

So would you say even with the worrisome condition with carriers getting out of the LTC business, you still feel it's relatively safe to buy this type of insurance?

To clarify, when I said carriers were getting out of the business - what I mean is that they aren’t selling new policies. They are still contractually obligated on the existing ones. So yes, I’d say people are safe to still buy them from remaking carriers now, just from a well known and highly rated one.

Thanks. Anytime I hear someone talk about an insurance company "going under" even as a last resort, that gets my attention.

Also, what's a remaking carrier?

Typo of *remaining

Was texting while biking. Very dangerous.

 

[matttyl]

prepare for life after medicaid

Woof. That is gonna be real terrible for a lot of folks. Boomers are gonna run down their assets, transferring none to their kids, while impoverishing their kids to pay for their care. Not to mention the detrimental impact on the boomer's grandkids, who should be seeing the benefits of wealth transfer but instead will just inherit a planet with rising sea levels, AI taking jobs, and no personal privacy.

So they should buy a LTC policy to transfer that risk. I’m not saying it’s easy (or cheap), but neither is the alternative you describe.

LTC is pretty simple in concept, it’s just insurance like any other. If you own a house (even without a mortgage), you have insurance on it, or should. The ACA, even with its faults, mandated Americans have something we all should have had anyway (health insurance). Most states now mandate if you operate a vehicle you have insurance on it to mitigate that risk.

I would imagine that LTC insurance is prohibitively expensive for those in their 60s and 70s. What are the prices / coverage we're talking about?

Huge range in what we’re talking about here. Back in the day I could sell a “stand alone” LTC policy to a fairly healthy couple in that age range for $4-9k a year which would cover $150-200 per day, and that 150-200 would grow each year (compounded or simple inflation) of 3 or 5%.

Today the big thing in LTCi is via a life policy. You buy a $500k whole life policy with an LTC rider - if you never need LTC your beneficiary gets the $500k. If you do need it, it’s paid for out of the future death bed it, reducing it dollar for dollar. So you’ll get your money back one way or another, or your heirs will. But then folks will say that permanent life insurance is a rip off and we’re back to square one.

What if they’re in their 80s?

Likely too late. Carriers stop selling these to individuals in their mid to late 70s. Perhaps an annuity carrier will still do one of those, but I don’t know of any off hand. Much like retirement planning, it needs to be done decades before it’s likely needed. The prime spot is 55-65.

 

[Terminalxylem]

I hit my out of pocket max for the year of $7k last week. I'm going to start looking to proactively consume as much health care as possible for the next 6 months.

What does this mean, practically?

I know people defer some healthcare, but what specifically are you planning to do in the next 6 months?

 

[Terminalxylem]

Typo of *remaining

Was texting while biking. Very dangerous.

Good thing you’re insured.

Seriously though, realllly bad idea.

 

[matttyl]

Typo of *remaining

Was texting while biking. Very dangerous.

Good thing you’re insured.

Seriously though, realllly bad idea.

Who said I’m insured?
Just sweaty hands, it was around 90 and humid.

 

[Terminalxylem]

Typo of *remaining

Was texting while biking. Very dangerous.

Good thing you’re insured.

Seriously though, realllly bad idea.

Who said I’m insured?
Just sweaty hands, it was around 90 and humid.

Oh, biking and texting with sweaty hands?

And I get dinged on life insurance for rock climbing

 

[matttyl]

Typo of *remaining

Was texting while biking. Very dangerous.

Good thing you’re insured.

Seriously though, realllly bad idea.

Who said I’m insured?
Just sweaty hands, it was around 90 and humid.

Oh, biking and texting with sweaty hands?

And I get dinged on life insurance for rock climbing

Honest question - with what carrier, and indoor our outdoor? Feel free to message me directly.

 

[Terminalxylem]

Typo of *remaining

Was texting while biking. Very dangerous.

Good thing you’re insured.

Seriously though, realllly bad idea.

Who said I’m insured?
Just sweaty hands, it was around 90 and humid.

Oh, biking and texting with sweaty hands?

And I get dinged on life insurance for rock climbing

Honest question - with what carrier, and indoor our outdoor? Feel free to message me directly.

I’m kidding, I have no need for life insurance - no dependents, no debt, wife earns more than me. But I know some insurers ask about it, presumably because it is assumed to be a “high risk” activity.

The thing is, that idea unfairly lumps all climbing together.

At the extreme, free soloing (without ropes) and high altitude mountaineering are objectively dangerous. Probably ice climbing as well, though possibly not. On the other hand, sport climbing (on bolted routes/anchors, using rope), whether indoor or outdoors, is not. I’ve seen data which suggests pick-up basketball is more dangerous, for example.

But the actuaries don’t understand the sport to that level of granularity. Very few sport climbers free solo, or participate in alpinism, yet they’re all lumped together as “dangerous” outdoor activities.

What is your understanding of how climbing impacts insurance eligibility/rates?

ETA Road cycling is higher risk than sport climbing as well, IIRC.

 

[pollardsvision]

Definitely not planning on LTC insurance. Decades of way more old people than there are young people to take care of them. It's simple math. Either you need to be incredibly wealthy or have a lot of good kids. LTC has to be incredibly expensive or it doesn't make sense for them to do it.

I do alright and have an insane savings rate for what we make, but it's me and my brain-injured wife. No kids. Although some fantastic nieces.

If I stay moderately healthy and I think I can build about 1.5M for her. Which won't be enough, but it's all I can do.
We work 50 years in hopes that we can pay somebody to watch us for the last 2. And that math is going to keep getting worse.

I won't say what's going to happen if I'm lucky enough to mentally see my decline coming while I'm physically able to deal with it.
Although, I heard a few generations before me say the same "send me out into the woods" stuff and nobody ever did it.

Anyway, Happy 4th fellas!

 

[Nugget]

I hit my out of pocket max for the year of $7k last week. I'm going to start looking to proactively consume as much health care as possible for the next 6 months.

What does this mean, practically?

I know people defer some healthcare, but what specifically are you planning to do in the next 6 months?

Restart physical therapy on my Achilles, start using a chiropractor, and possibly get a therapist. Depending on the progress with the Achilles, I may consider surgery.

 

[bcat01]

I hit my out of pocket max for the year of $7k last week. I'm going to start looking to proactively consume as much health care as possible for the next 6 months.

What does this mean, practically?

I know people defer some healthcare, but what specifically are you planning to do in the next 6 months?

Restart physical therapy on my Achilles, start using a chiropractor, and possibly get a therapist. Depending on the progress with the Achilles, I may consider surgery.

Dermatologist for a checkup.

 

[Uruk-Hai]

I won't say what's going to happen if I'm lucky enough to mentally see my decline coming while I'm physically able to deal with it.
Although, I heard a few generations before me say the same "send me out into the woods" stuff and nobody ever did it.

My father said it..... I don't even know how many times. He was the most hard-headed, determined person I've ever known. That disease is horribly sneaky, though. Before the "I'll take a long walk in the woods" thoughts can kick in for real, they're already gone.

 

[tommyGunZ]

Definitely not planning on LTC insurance. Decades of way more old people than there are young people to take care of them. It's simple math. Either you need to be incredibly wealthy or have a lot of good kids. LTC has to be incredibly expensive or it doesn't make sense for them to do it.

I do alright and have an insane savings rate for what we make, but it's me and my brain-injured wife. No kids. Although some fantastic nieces.

If I stay moderately healthy and I think I can build about 1.5M for her. Which won't be enough, but it's all I can do.
We work 50 years in hopes that we can pay somebody to watch us for the last 2. And that math is going to keep getting worse.

I won't say what's going to happen if I'm lucky enough to mentally see my decline coming while I'm physically able to deal with it.
Although, I heard a few generations before me say the same "send me out into the woods" stuff and nobody ever did it.

Anyway, Happy 4th fellas!

Good family friends of mine near you (Axton, VA) actually did it. Wife in her 80s with Altizers, husband in his late 80s ready to go and could deal with living without her. Took her for a walk around their farm, neither returned.

 

[Terminalxylem]

I won't say what's going to happen if I'm lucky enough to mentally see my decline coming while I'm physically able to deal with it.
Although, I heard a few generations before me say the same "send me out into the woods" stuff and nobody ever did it.

Anyway, Happy 4th fellas!

Many, many people are eager to trade their future health, in exchange for bad habits now. It’s easy to do, when the consequences are decades away.

And the “disappear in the woods” sentiment is common, too.

Yet when the debility sets in, and death is near, most want to fight for every last minute. That, or their family guilts them into enduring prolonged end-of-life care.

 

[fatness]

And the “disappear in the woods” sentiment is common, too.

Yet when the debility sets in, and death is near, most want to fight for every last minute. That, or their family guilts them into enduring prolonged end-of-life care.

I'm going to take issue with this, based on personal experience with 8 older family members (of 2 families, mine and my wife's). All wanted to "go when it's my time" and there were no family pushes for them to do otherwise.

I know you see a lot of patients in this situation and I'm convinced what you've describe happens. But there are countless people you don't see who've chosen to die at home, or who have chosen to die without heroic measures in hospitals and hospices. They just don't jump out as memories as much as some who have money-grubbing or grief-stricken relatives trying to ease their own pain.

 

[Terminalxylem]

And the “disappear in the woods” sentiment is common, too.

Yet when the debility sets in, and death is near, most want to fight for every last minute. That, or their family guilts them into enduring prolonged end-of-life care.

I'm going to take issue with this, based on personal experience with 8 older family members (of 2 families, mine and my wife's). All wanted to "go when it's my time" and there were no family pushes for them to do otherwise.

I know you see a lot of patients in this situation and I'm convinced what you've describe happens. But there are countless people you don't see who've chosen to die at home, or who have chosen to die without heroic measures in hospitals and hospices. They just don't jump out as memories as much as some who have money-grubbing or grief-stricken relatives trying to ease their own pain.

Yeah, I'll never see those patients. But I still believe human nature leans towards prolonging life, despite suffering, and futility of care. It's variable in different cultures though.

And to be clear, I don't think most families are money-grubbing, or grief-stricken. I think they're scared, with unrealistic expectations when the end draws near. And many clinicians avoid the topic, because talking about death is difficult.

 

[The Z Machine]

I’ll just go outside and sit on a stump until my time comes” as one prospect of mine said years ago in front of his wife, to her utter disbelief.

Hoenstly, I don't see the issues with this. I think I'd rather go out saying goodbye to those I love rather than bleeding the estate for continuing reduced quality of life until I keel over.

 

[The Z Machine]

The challenge is do you have the foresight, means, and fortitude to follow through. I do wish there was a way to write end of life requests for certain situations. Alzheimers, dementia, physical infirmity, etc.

 

[matttyl]

I’ll just go outside and sit on a stump until my time comes” as one prospect of mine said years ago in front of his wife, to her utter disbelief.

Hoenstly, I don't see the issues with this. I think I'd rather go out saying goodbye to those I love rather than bleeding the estate for continuing reduced quality of life until I keel over.

You touched on it in your next post - however, it’s fine for this to be your hope/desire, but I’m not sure it’s wise for this to be your plan. Of course none of us want to be a drain on an estate that we’d like to pass on, we’d love to live to 100 and then “gracefully expire,” but life has other ideas. Alzheimer’s, dementia, or simply just decreased mobility, who knows - your family isn’t just going to let you rot.

My great grandmother was physically very health, but mentally gone for the last nearly decade of her life. She simply couldn’t be by herself. I have a few folks on LTC claims right now who are mentally fine, but physically need assistance with their “activities of daily living” (what often triggers a LTC policy). Sure this wasn’t their plan, but they dont wanna check out just yet.

 

[Terminalxylem]

The challenge is do you have the foresight, means, and fortitude to follow through. I do wish there was a way to write end of life requests for certain situations. Alzheimers, dementia, physical infirmity, etc.

Most advanced care directives have language along the lines of “if I have a terminal condition, or am in a vegetative state, do not prolong my life by artificial means”.

Nearly everyone agrees with that sentiment. The problem is, it’s fairly meaningless without defining the terms. Technically, life is terminal, and nearly every aspect of Western medicine is artificial, for example. And the layman’s idea of a vegetative state may not match the medical definition.

Some try to get more granular, with stipulations about mechanical ventilation, forced feeding, and duration of “life support”. Unfortunately, it’s not uncommon that stuff is overlooked, or overridden by surrogate decision makers, in times of crisis.

The most important decision to make is what to do in the event of a cardiopulmonary arrest. If your heart stops and you aren’t breathing, do you want to be resuscitated? Do you want cardiopulmonary resuscitation, including all the machines and tubes that may go with it?

This assumes nothing about the outcome, ranging from full functionality to persistent vegetative state, which is impossible to predict. It’s a yes/no decision, and an incredibly difficult one. But it’s far and away the most important information to include in an advance directive.

A much better approach is addressed by programs like POLST. You can read the wiki-link, but it basically distills the salient information to a single page. It doesn’t encompass all end-of-life planning, but provides a much more clinically relevant document than typical advance care directives.

You also should familiarize yourself with local Death with Dignity laws. Though infrequently utilized, they provide a path to minimize suffering.

 

[The Z Machine]

I’ll just go outside and sit on a stump until my time comes” as one prospect of mine said years ago in front of his wife, to her utter disbelief.

Hoenstly, I don't see the issues with this. I think I'd rather go out saying goodbye to those I love rather than bleeding the estate for continuing reduced quality of life until I keel over.

You touched on it in your next post - however, it’s fine for this to be your hope/desire, but I’m not sure it’s wise for this to be your plan. Of course none of us want to be a drain on an estate that we’d like to pass on, we’d love to live to 100 and then “gracefully expire,” but life has other ideas. Alzheimer’s, dementia, or simply just decreased mobility, who knows - your family isn’t just going to let you rot.

My great grandmother was physically very health, but mentally gone for the last nearly decade of her life. She simply couldn’t be by herself. I have a few folks on LTC claims right now who are mentally fine, but physically need assistance with their “activities of daily living” (what often triggers a LTC policy). Sure this wasn’t their plan, but they dont wanna check out just yet.

I saw 2 grandparents live to 99 and 101 with good QoL until about 95 or so. The last 5 years were tough to watch though. My gf got his wish and went feet first out of his house at 99. He said he didn't want to see 100.

I'm with him. I don't want to see 95+. I probably don't even want to see 90+. When QoL goes like not recognizing my family, not being to care for or feed myself? What's the point of living?

 

[The Z Machine]

Another data point. My MIL, whomlives with us and is 81 years old. Her QoL is decreasing. She uses a rollator outside the house, walker inside. She has incontinence issues and she has trouble staying awake most days. She doesnt cook much anymore but can still wssh dishes (slowly). Her mind is not as sharp as it was and her hearing and eyesight have degraded. She can still watch TV, read books, and go for a walk outside by herself. Her life is still obviously +EV. If she was confined to her bed, couldn't hear or see, or hold a conversation? That's a different story. I'm not even talking about mechanical ventilation, I'm talking about what makes a life worth living.

 

[matttyl]

I’ll just go outside and sit on a stump until my time comes” as one prospect of mine said years ago in front of his wife, to her utter disbelief.

Hoenstly, I don't see the issues with this. I think I'd rather go out saying goodbye to those I love rather than bleeding the estate for continuing reduced quality of life until I keel over.

You touched on it in your next post - however, it’s fine for this to be your hope/desire, but I’m not sure it’s wise for this to be your plan. Of course none of us want to be a drain on an estate that we’d like to pass on, we’d love to live to 100 and then “gracefully expire,” but life has other ideas. Alzheimer’s, dementia, or simply just decreased mobility, who knows - your family isn’t just going to let you rot.

My great grandmother was physically very health, but mentally gone for the last nearly decade of her life. She simply couldn’t be by herself. I have a few folks on LTC claims right now who are mentally fine, but physically need assistance with their “activities of daily living” (what often triggers a LTC policy). Sure this wasn’t their plan, but they dont wanna check out just yet.

I saw 2 grandparents live to 99 and 101 with good QoL until about 95 or so. The last 5 years were tough to watch though. My gf got his wish and went feet first out of his house at 99. He said he didn't want to see 100.

I'm with him. I don't want to see 95+. I probably don't even want to see 90+. When QoL goes like not recognizing my family, not being to care for or feed myself? What's the point of living?

I understand your feeling, but are you suggesting assisted suicide?

 

[The Z Machine]

I’ll just go outside and sit on a stump until my time comes” as one prospect of mine said years ago in front of his wife, to her utter disbelief.

Hoenstly, I don't see the issues with this. I think I'd rather go out saying goodbye to those I love rather than bleeding the estate for continuing reduced quality of life until I keel over.

You touched on it in your next post - however, it’s fine for this to be your hope/desire, but I’m not sure it’s wise for this to be your plan. Of course none of us want to be a drain on an estate that we’d like to pass on, we’d love to live to 100 and then “gracefully expire,” but life has other ideas. Alzheimer’s, dementia, or simply just decreased mobility, who knows - your family isn’t just going to let you rot.

My great grandmother was physically very health, but mentally gone for the last nearly decade of her life. She simply couldn’t be by herself. I have a few folks on LTC claims right now who are mentally fine, but physically need assistance with their “activities of daily living” (what often triggers a LTC policy). Sure this wasn’t their plan, but they dont wanna check out just yet.

I saw 2 grandparents live to 99 and 101 with good QoL until about 95 or so. The last 5 years were tough to watch though. My gf got his wish and went feet first out of his house at 99. He said he didn't want to see 100.

I'm with him. I don't want to see 95+. I probably don't even want to see 90+. When QoL goes like not recognizing my family, not being to care for or feed myself? What's the point of living?

I understand your feeling, but are you suggesting assisted suicide?

Sure. Or regular unassisted.

 

[The Longtime Lurker]

End of life tourism is a thing. I had an acquaintance (more like a friend of a friend) opt for this in Switzerland for a chronic illness. Very sad and also very understandable when pain and suffering is your default setting. In a future where only people of means can afford elder care i wonder if this type of thing doesn't become more common.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/08/23/health/assisted-death-medical-tourism-kff-health-news

 

[Terminalxylem]

I’ll just go outside and sit on a stump until my time comes” as one prospect of mine said years ago in front of his wife, to her utter disbelief.

Hoenstly, I don't see the issues with this. I think I'd rather go out saying goodbye to those I love rather than bleeding the estate for continuing reduced quality of life until I keel over.

You touched on it in your next post - however, it’s fine for this to be your hope/desire, but I’m not sure it’s wise for this to be your plan. Of course none of us want to be a drain on an estate that we’d like to pass on, we’d love to live to 100 and then “gracefully expire,” but life has other ideas. Alzheimer’s, dementia, or simply just decreased mobility, who knows - your family isn’t just going to let you rot.

My great grandmother was physically very health, but mentally gone for the last nearly decade of her life. She simply couldn’t be by herself. I have a few folks on LTC claims right now who are mentally fine, but physically need assistance with their “activities of daily living” (what often triggers a LTC policy). Sure this wasn’t their plan, but they dont wanna check out just yet.

I saw 2 grandparents live to 99 and 101 with good QoL until about 95 or so. The last 5 years were tough to watch though. My gf got his wish and went feet first out of his house at 99. He said he didn't want to see 100.

I'm with him. I don't want to see 95+. I probably don't even want to see 90+. When QoL goes like not recognizing my family, not being to care for or feed myself? What's the point of living?

So, even if you’re functional/QoL is good, 95 is your limit? How can you be sure medical advances in the next ~40 years won’t allow that possibility?

FTR, both my grandmothers died over age 95, at 98 and 99. Though cognitively intact, neither was happy the last few years of life.

That said, I’m still doing everything in my power to live as long as possible. I see no reason not to, as studies have shown those with healthy habits have both longer lifespan and healthspan.

Those same studies reveal we’re all likely to suffer in the end, but that period is reduced if you exercise regularly, eat a healthy diet, don’t smoke or drink excessively, and have adequate social support.

 

[matttyl]

I’ll just go outside and sit on a stump until my time comes” as one prospect of mine said years ago in front of his wife, to her utter disbelief.

Hoenstly, I don't see the issues with this. I think I'd rather go out saying goodbye to those I love rather than bleeding the estate for continuing reduced quality of life until I keel over.

You touched on it in your next post - however, it’s fine for this to be your hope/desire, but I’m not sure it’s wise for this to be your plan. Of course none of us want to be a drain on an estate that we’d like to pass on, we’d love to live to 100 and then “gracefully expire,” but life has other ideas. Alzheimer’s, dementia, or simply just decreased mobility, who knows - your family isn’t just going to let you rot.

My great grandmother was physically very health, but mentally gone for the last nearly decade of her life. She simply couldn’t be by herself. I have a few folks on LTC claims right now who are mentally fine, but physically need assistance with their “activities of daily living” (what often triggers a LTC policy). Sure this wasn’t their plan, but they dont wanna check out just yet.

I saw 2 grandparents live to 99 and 101 with good QoL until about 95 or so. The last 5 years were tough to watch though. My gf got his wish and went feet first out of his house at 99. He said he didn't want to see 100.

I'm with him. I don't want to see 95+. I probably don't even want to see 90+. When QoL goes like not recognizing my family, not being to care for or feed myself? What's the point of living?

I understand your feeling, but are you suggesting assisted suicide?

Sure. Or regular unassisted.

Well that’s a whole different topic worthy of its own thread.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I’ll just go outside and sit on a stump until my time comes” as one prospect of mine said years ago in front of his wife, to her utter disbelief.

Hoenstly, I don't see the issues with this. I think I'd rather go out saying goodbye to those I love rather than bleeding the estate for continuing reduced quality of life until I keel over.

You touched on it in your next post - however, it’s fine for this to be your hope/desire, but I’m not sure it’s wise for this to be your plan. Of course none of us want to be a drain on an estate that we’d like to pass on, we’d love to live to 100 and then “gracefully expire,” but life has other ideas. Alzheimer’s, dementia, or simply just decreased mobility, who knows - your family isn’t just going to let you rot.

My great grandmother was physically very health, but mentally gone for the last nearly decade of her life. She simply couldn’t be by herself. I have a few folks on LTC claims right now who are mentally fine, but physically need assistance with their “activities of daily living” (what often triggers a LTC policy). Sure this wasn’t their plan, but they dont wanna check out just yet.

I saw 2 grandparents live to 99 and 101 with good QoL until about 95 or so. The last 5 years were tough to watch though. My gf got his wish and went feet first out of his house at 99. He said he didn't want to see 100.

I'm with him. I don't want to see 95+. I probably don't even want to see 90+. When QoL goes like not recognizing my family, not being to care for or feed myself? What's the point of living?

I understand your feeling, but are you suggesting assisted suicide?

Sure. Or regular unassisted.

Well that’s a whole different topic worthy of its own thread.

Agreed.

I miss my mom and dad terribly but I feel "fortunate" in that both of them passed pretty quickly after getting sick. Neither had a long and drawn out painful ending to their lives.

My father in law is currently undergoing a very different sitaution as his health has been deteriorating markedly but relatively slowly for the last several years. It's tough to see.

 

[Joe Schmo]

My paternal grandmother suffered a bunch physically during her last four years to the point that even though mentally sound she finally gave up and told my dad she was going dnr during her last stop in the care facility. She'd been in and out of the facility for a while and she just couldn't take it anymore. Took her a day or so but she passed in her sleep. It was basically suicide by a different name but we were relieved for her.

Miss you Nanna.