Justice Democrats (1 Viewer)

[NCCommish]

two-to-four year public service option followed by future tax exemption (actually, a strong, punitive tax penalty for opting out) and free bachelor's education has always been one of my favorite public proposals.

I think a lot of people would find such a framework agreeable.

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

Is this where we go for the free stuff?

Not sure but I was told there would be pie and punch

 

[Gr00vus]

Still don't like the idea of free college education. It's not fair, imo, to those paid for it already and I think it lowers the value of all degrees because degrees would now be easier to obtain. There would be a lot of things to be considered to make it okay in my eyes.

This has already happened. The kicker is that it comes with debilitating debt as currently constituted. That needs to change, one way or another. I think the idea of the general applicability and desirableness of a liberal arts education needs to be brought into question. I think there should be free vocational type education as well - plumbers, electricians, etc. - that includes some, but not all liberal arts topics too. We need to expand and improve the critical thinking ability of U.S. citizens, provide them with basic skills useful in their everyday lives, and give them training towards the jobs they are most likely to pursue once out of college. This same approach for all people in regards to education is at the root of a lot of our problems.

 

[NCCommish]

You are really underselling the degree to which average Americans benefit from trade w/China. Have a smart phone? Guess why we can pretty much all afford them? Big screen TV? Same. Families that have multiple kids they need to buy clothes for? Think they want to pay 50-100% more for everything they buy? It's also not just a handful of people who have jobs or have become extraordinarily rich through trade. 

I'm obviously not going to broadly defend Chinese labor policy but standards of living have gone up significantly in China and absolute poverty has fallen precipitously.  This is largely a direct result of globalism and is true of most developing economies in the world. 

So to take Apple as an example. Currently Apple charges you about 3 times what is costs to make an Iphone. The total cost with labor is around 224. I see the Apple 7 running around 650. If they made it in the US and we took the absolute worst case cost scenario including making everything here and doing all assembly here their price to manufacture goes up to around 334. They could still charge what they do and make twice what is costs to manufacture. Now with automation we all know these would be less jobs than it was ten years ago and will be less ten years from now. But these are still better jobs, however many there are, than the Mcjobs this economy has largely been producing. And the money paid to labor could be going to a major consumer group for your product.

 

[NCCommish]

This has already happened. The kicker is that it comes with debilitating debt as currently constituted. That needs to change, one way or another. I think the idea of the general applicability and desirableness of a liberal arts education needs to be brought into question. I think there should be free vocational type education as well - plumbers, electricians, etc. - that includes some, but not all liberal arts topics too. We need to expand and improve the critical thinking ability of U.S. citizens, provide them with basic skills useful in their everyday lives, and give them training towards the jobs they are most likely to pursue once out of college. This same approach for all people in regards to education is at the root of a lot of our problems.

Absolutely. And we need to stop acting like those are bad jobs or that you didn't succeed if you're a plumber or A/C repair person or electrician or whatever. Those folks make great money. The jobs can be physically demanding but that doesn't make them bad jobs.

 

[tommyGunZ]

We should stop mocking ALL jobs NCC.  Even McJobs. 

 

[Gr00vus]

Absolutely. And we need to stop acting like those are bad jobs or that you didn't succeed if you're a plumber or A/C repair person or electrician or whatever. Those folks make great money. The jobs can be physically demanding but that doesn't make them bad jobs.

Beyond that, until we have standardized layouts for buildings (which probably won't happen for centuries, if ever) those are going to be jobs that will be tough to automate completely.

 

[The Commish]

I don't recall mocking you, but I did disagree with you on this. I was wrong. I also saw this division coming, but not for many years down the road.

You are a Hillary supporter, not an establishment democrat.....though I am sure you could get there if you tried.  

 

[eoMMan]

This has already happened. The kicker is that it comes with debilitating debt as currently constituted. That needs to change, one way or another. I think the idea of the general applicability and desirableness of a liberal arts education needs to be brought into question. I think there should be free vocational type education as well - plumbers, electricians, etc. - that includes some, but not all liberal arts topics too. We need to expand and improve the critical thinking ability of U.S. citizens, provide them with basic skills useful in their everyday lives, and give them training towards the jobs they are most likely to pursue once out of college. This same approach for all people in regards to education is at the root of a lot of our problems.

Well, if it comes with a ton of debt, then I wouldn't necessarily say it's "easy to obtain". 

I do agree that the cost of college is ridiculous but to be honest, until people wake up and stop paying $200k for an art/communications/sociology/etc degree, I don't know how much can be done. These people deserve, imo, to have crippling debt they brought on themselves if they don't have sort of plan on how the degree leads to employment.

 

[Gr00vus]

We should stop mocking ALL jobs NCC.  Even McJobs. 

I don't think he's mocking the employee, he's mocking the compensation. Even so, if you're attempting to move towards more advanced states of societal and economic development, those jobs really should be automated out of existence. That's not where you'd want people spending their lives, ideally.

 

[Trey]

Ideological purity scares the hell out of me.

The Ds losses have been enormous on local, state, and national scale in the last decade. You really think Blue Dogs are to blame? Not so sure I agree. 

Especially when the demographics of the left flank simply don't show up in non-presidential/non-hope and change years. That's probably the biggest reason this will fail where the Tea Party succeeded. Tea Party revved up a lot of older white folks who were sick of overreach and spending. Those same people already were voting in primaries and off year elections, now they were bundled together in one bloc. I don't see that happening on the D side outside of some insane Trump policies that fire everyone up and drive enormous opposition in the next 2 years.

It's going to be a long 4 years unless people from center to far left all stay politically engaged during locals and midterms. 

 

[NCCommish]

We should stop mocking ALL jobs NCC.  Even McJobs. 

i'm not mocking them. I am saying that our reliance on them to support a healthy economy for the majority of this country is a bad idea. I'm saying that many Americans are working their ### off at them and getting nothing but a poverty wage that can't get them a room in a by the week hotel much less pay rent on an apartment. That's why we fight for a higher minimum wage. To make it the living wage it was envisioned to be when it was started under FDR. And really if we got everything we asked for in that first post even those jobs would be better and more suitable to the richest nation on earth.

 

[Gr00vus]

Well, if it comes with a ton of debt, then I wouldn't necessarily say it's "easy to obtain". 

I do agree that the cost of college is ridiculous but to be honest, until people wake up and stop paying $200k for an art/communications/sociology/etc degree, I don't know how much can be done. These people deserve, imo, to have crippling debt they brought on themselves if they don't have sort of plan on how the degree leads to employment.

Obtaining and repaying are different things. Given the pervasive narrative that you can't get a good job without a college degree, that is their plan. Ubiquitous government loans make it seem easy to obtain. It's not until you've gotten the education that you realize what it's going to cost you long term.

 

[tommyGunZ]

Incremental change is the ultimate statement of privilege. As far as purity goes it's simple. Do you vote for your donors or for main street? That's pretty close to it for.politicians. For journalists it's are you truthful or a mouthpiece? I have no patience for parrots.

Disagree. The perfect is the evil of the good. Equating those who agree with you in principle but not in process with Republicans is a poor strategy in my opinion.  

The world is not as black or white as you make it out to be.  Everything doesn't fit into a "donors" or "main street" box.  

 

[NCCommish]

Ideological purity scares the hell out of me.

The Ds losses have been enormous on local, state, and national scale in the last decade. You really think Blue Dogs are to blame? Not so sure I agree. 

Especially when the demographics of the left flank simply don't show up in non-presidential/non-hope and change years. That's probably the biggest reason this will fail where the Tea Party succeeded. Tea Party revved up a lot of older white folks who were sick of overreach and spending. Those same people already were voting in primaries and off year elections, now they were bundled together in one bloc. I don't see that happening on the D side outside of some insane Trump policies that fire everyone up and drive enormous opposition in the next 2 years.

It's going to be a long 4 years unless people from center to far left all stay politically engaged during locals and midterms. 

So I guess you were really worried when the Republicans purged the moderates from the party? Or when the Democrats purged the liberals? This isn't about ideologically purity.  If you are voting against my interest I have no intention of voting for you. If that's scary i don't know what to tell you. I call it being an informed consumer. My vote is for people who are going to help people like me. Not people who are going to vote to only help the guy who wrote the big check.

 

[tommyGunZ]

Ideological purity scares the hell out of me.

The Ds losses have been enormous on local, state, and national scale in the last decade. You really think Blue Dogs are to blame? Not so sure I agree. 

Especially when the demographics of the left flank simply don't show up in non-presidential/non-hope and change years. That's probably the biggest reason this will fail where the Tea Party succeeded. Tea Party revved up a lot of older white folks who were sick of overreach and spending. Those same people already were voting in primaries and off year elections, now they were bundled together in one bloc. I don't see that happening on the D side outside of some insane Trump policies that fire everyone up and drive enormous opposition in the next 2 years.

It's going to be a long 4 years unless people from center to far left all stay politically engaged during locals and midterms. 

Gerrymandering sounds like a whiny excuse, but I think it's far more relevant to D losses on state and local level than Blue Dogs.  

 

[tommyGunZ]

i'm not mocking them. I am saying that our reliance on them to support a healthy economy for the majority of this country is a bad idea. I'm saying that many Americans are working their ### off at them and getting nothing but a poverty wage that can't get them a room in a by the week hotel much less pay rent on an apartment. That's why we fight for a higher minimum wage. To make it the living wage it was envisioned to be when it was started under FDR. And really if we got everything we asked for in that first post even those jobs would be better and more suitable to the richest nation on earth.

100% on board for minimum wage hikes.  

 

[NCCommish]

Disagree. The perfect is the evil of the good. Equating those who agree with you in principle but not in process with Republicans is a poor strategy in my opinion.  

The world is not as black or white as you make it out to be.  Everything doesn't fit into a "donors" or "main street" box.  

And yet -
 

After examining differences in public opinion across income groups on a wide variety of issues, the political scientists Martin Gilens, of Princeton, and Benjamin Page, of Northwestern, found that the preferences of rich people had a much bigger impact on subsequent policy decisions than the views of middle-income and poor Americans. Indeed, the opinions of lower-income groups, and the interest groups that represent them, appear to have little or no independent impact on policy.

“Our analyses suggest that majorities of the American public actually have little influence over the policies our government adopts,” Gilens and Page write:

Americans do enjoy many features central to democratic governance, such as regular elections, freedom of speech and association, and a widespread (if still contested) franchise. But we believe that if policymaking is dominated by powerful business organizations and a small number of affluent Americans, then America’s claims to being a democratic society are seriously threatened.

That’s a big claim. In their conclusion, Gilens and Page go even further, asserting that “In the United States, our findings indicate, the majority does not rule—at least not in the causal sense of actually determining policy outcomes. When a majority of citizens disagrees with economic elites and/or with organized interests, they generally lose. Moreover … even when fairly large majorities of Americans favor policy change, they generally do not get it.”

This is easily proven by looking at the political disconnect on universal background checks on guns. Something like 90% of Americans want this. Still. Not 90% of liberals. Not 90% of Democrats. 90% of Americans. Heck 72% of NRA members. And yet not a damn thing.

So yeah actually some things are pretty black and white. We legalized bribery and both parties started cashing the checks. To our detriment.

 

[wikkidpissah]

the beauty of free college education is that, just as single-payer health is impossible without govt negotiating price and eliminating insurance/lobby infrastructure, free ed can't be done without streamlining college learning in the extreme. The ol college tie/home team/frat pledge/alumni social construct which enables high-cost, high-bias, low-yield matricuation to continue unmolested would need to be torn down to its pc-plus-lab equivalent to be nationally affordable and kill two birds w one stone. big boid-killahs, we crows,

 

[NCCommish]

Gerrymandering sounds like a whiny excuse, but I think it's far more relevant to D losses on state and local level than Blue Dogs.  

We gerrymander ourselves to a degree as well. I love the country personally and have often lived in rural areas. But most of the people on the left are pretty solidly ensconced in urban areas. That is why the Democratic party much reach out to those independents, many of whom are not conservative, in those rural areas and give them a good honest reason to vote for them.

By the way not against third parties i just don't find them viable in our current system. I would like to see that changed but for now reality dictates this. So we take back the Democratic party and go all FDR.

 

[NCCommish]

the beauty of free college education is that, just as single-payer health is impossible without govt negotiating price and eliminating insurance/lobby infrastructure, free ed can't be done without streamlining college learning in the extreme. The ol college tie/home team/frat pledge/alumni social construct which enables high-cost, high-bias, low-yield matricuation to continue unmolested would need to be torn down to its pc-plus-lab equivalent to be nationally affordable and kill two birds w one stone. big boid-killahs, we crows,

True and something rarely brought up.

 

[hagmania]

In.

 

[NCCommish]

And what the Blue Dog Clintons did was sell out their base. Which was white working class and lower class voters. They sold out to big money interests and screwed the people. I have outlined the policies that implemented the screwing many times so I won't rehash. But their base has now had enough. They have been mocked. They have been told moderate republican votes were going to replace them so who cares? That's super liberal Chuck Schumer by the way. So they said screw you. And they have been saying it for a while. That's why the GOP holds 70% of state houses. The Congress. The Senate. And finally the White House again. Not Comey. Not Russia. Not Bernie. But decades of policies that sold out the people they needed to win.

 

[NCCommish]

Beyond that, until we have standardized layouts for buildings (which probably won't happen for centuries, if ever) those are going to be jobs that will be tough to automate completely.

Very true

 

[bagger]

Still don't like the idea of free college education. It's not fair, imo, to those paid for it already and I think it lowers the value of all degrees because degrees would now be easier to obtain. There would be a lot of things to be considered to make it okay in my eyes.

That's making the poor assumption that all college degrees are a commodity, which they are not. Ivy League degrees will not be devalued as they still would be dIfficult to get into. The crappy no name state schools which everyone can get into now would likely see the largest influx but that degree did not have any extra value regardless so having more is irrelevant.

I would argue a better use would be to push more kids into vocational schools but also having a free option for those who wanted it. Another benefit would be it would also reduce costs for private schools as they would be competing against cheaper options so overall student debt load would be reduced which is a good thing long term for the economy.

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

So to take Apple as an example. Currently Apple charges you about 3 times what is costs to make an Iphone. The total cost with labor is around 224. I see the Apple 7 running around 650. If they made it in the US and we took the absolute worst case cost scenario including making everything here and doing all assembly here their price to manufacture goes up to around 334. They could still charge what they do and make twice what is costs to manufacture. Now with automation we all know these would be less jobs than it was ten years ago and will be less ten years from now. But these are still better jobs, however many there are, than the Mcjobs this economy has largely been producing. And the money paid to labor could be going to a major consumer group for your product.

Let's think about that difference in manufacturing costs as a tax. We can use your number and say it's a net $100 difference to manufacture the iPhone here vs. in China including controlling for differences in shipping, supply chains, etc. So that $100 is going to be split up between Apple and consumers based on elasticity of demand and the demand curve. Assuming all other manufacturers have to abide by the same rules the elasticity probably doesn't change much so the amount of of that cost passed onto consumers is really just about at what price they can continue to sell and maintain a similar margin. Again to keep things simple let's assume a 50/50 split, probably generous on the Apple side but it leaves us essentially a $50 completely regressive tax on every iPhone in order to sustain some unknown number of manufacturing jobs, which as you note are a good bet to be automated in the next decade or so anyway. 

What I would prefer is an actual progressive tax on the income and returns gained through the transactions, which can then be pushed out to provide a much stronger safety net and create demand for goods and services that are better oriented around local/regional production/service. 

I think we agree that it's critical to address the areas that have been marginalized by the global economy.

 

[Reg Lllama of Brixton]

"Justice Democrats" sounds like a bunch of liberals wearing capes and fighting crime together.

 

[eoMMan]

That's making the poor assumption that all college degrees are a commodity, which they are not. Ivy League degrees will not be devalued as they still would be dIfficult to get into. The crappy no name state schools which everyone can get into now would likely see the largest influx but that degree did not have any extra value regardless so having more is irrelevant.

I would argue a better use would be to push more kids into vocational schools but also having a free option for those who wanted it. Another benefit would be it would also reduce costs for private schools as they would be competing against cheaper options so overall student debt load would be reduced which is a good thing long term for the economy.

Well, a ####ty college degree is still better than no college degree.....even if it's in a horrible major. To say all college degrees aren't commodities is wrong....some are definitely worth more than others but all are worth something. 

I agree regarding trade/votec/etc. More people should be looking at these for careers. 

 

[timschochet]

This isn't about ideologically purity. If you are voting against my interest I have no intention of voting for you.

Given that we vote for representatives and not for issues, these two statements are incompatible.

 

[NCCommish]

Let's think about that difference in manufacturing costs as a tax. We can use your number and say it's a net $100 difference to manufacture the iPhone here vs. in China including controlling for differences in shipping, supply chains, etc. So that $100 is going to be split up between Apple and consumers based on elasticity of demand and the demand curve. Assuming all other manufacturers have to abide by the same rules the elasticity probably doesn't change much so the amount of of that cost passed onto consumers is really just about at what price they can continue to sell and maintain a similar margin. Again to keep things simple let's assume a 50/50 split, probably generous on the Apple side but it leaves us essentially a $50 completely regressive tax on every iPhone in order to sustain some unknown number of manufacturing jobs, which as you note are a good bet to be automated in the next decade or so anyway. 

What I would prefer is an actual progressive tax on the income and returns gained through the transactions, which can then be pushed out to provide a much stronger safety net and create demand for goods and services that are better oriented around local/regional production/service. 

I think we agree that it's critical to address the areas that have been marginalized by the global economy.

You know if we wind up in the same place I'm not dead set on a certain path. But I do think the idea that making double what it costs to manufacture is still not enough seems kind of silly. That seems like it is driven by pie in the sky demands from Wall Street for a continued escalation of profitability year over year regardless or you are a failure and your price tanks. Not enough just to be profitable, It speaks to an unending and unsustainable greed.

 

[Reg Lllama of Brixton]

"Justice Democrats" sounds like a bunch of liberals wearing capes and fighting crime together.

Bleeding-Heartman: Quick, Equalityboy...to the Social Justicemobile!"  (both jump into a Subaru)

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

"Justice Democrats" sounds like a bunch of liberals wearing capes and fighting crime together.

"Form of ... a monkey that went to med school! Form of ... a vacuum made of ice to suck embryos from the womb! Wonder Twin powers, activate!  Let's go abort some fetuses!"

 

[Reg Lllama of Brixton]

Hairyleg Girl:  Something is showing up on the Radical Radar

Mr. Kumbaya:  What is it?

Hairyleg Girl:  It's...it looks like...Oh, no!  Dr. Capitalist and his goons are heading towards Planned Parenthood!

 

[Captain Quinoa]

This has already happened. The kicker is that it comes with debilitating debt as currently constituted. That needs to change, one way or another. I think the idea of the general applicability and desirableness of a liberal arts education needs to be brought into question. I think there should be free vocational type education as well - plumbers, electricians, etc. - that includes some, but not all liberal arts topics too. We need to expand and improve the critical thinking ability of U.S. citizens, provide them with basic skills useful in their everyday lives, and give them training towards the jobs they are most likely to pursue once out of college. This same approach for all people in regards to education is at the root of a lot of our problems.

Most of this could/should happen in high school, not college. 

 

[NCCommish]

Given that we vote for representatives and not for issues, these two statements are incompatible.

I vote on policy tim. You are either promulgating policy that helps the people or you aren't. If it doesn't you get to go find a new job as we will vote you out until we get someone who votes for policies which we are in favor of. I know you are not comfortable with the people actually having power. But we are trying to get it back. And if we do it will benefit you and yours as much as it does me and mine.

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

"Global warming?  No problem for Mr. Cool and his sidekick Lil' Icee!" 

JUSTICE DEMOCRATS

"Feel free to use whichever bathroom you choose, Captain Transformer"

 

[NCCommish]

Yep - no difference between Repubs and Dems.  

Gee I seem to remember that both these projects were going forward under a Democratic president until the public got pissed off. I seem to remember some of you pushing a Democratic candidate for president who had stumped for fracking all over the world. I seem to recall her "environmental" advisor was a huge fracking cheerleader as well. So yeah not really much difference. Just the pretty face has been ripped off neo-liberalism and now you don't like it so much. Same as the drone program. OMG Bush is using drones it's an international travesty. Obama expends the program and kills thousands of civilians with it and crickets from the majority of the left.

 

[Gr00vus]

Most of this could/should happen in high school, not college. 

Probably. Not sure about the critical thinking skills part, I think that takes somewhat longer/more maturity. Our high school programs really need to be revamped to offer more specialized education for people on different life paths. I know most of us don't know our long term job in high school, but we could do better to give more applicable education to people who at least have some notion that they want to be an auto mechanic and maybe open up their own garage someday instead of assuming everyone's going to liberal arts college and of course we'll all be CEOs or district attorneys someday.

 

[NCCommish]

"Global warming?  No problem for Mr. Cool and his sidekick Lil' Icee!" 

JUSTICE DEMOCRATS

"Feel free to use whichever bathroom you choose, Captain Transformer"

Kind of incoherent. A little early for drunk posting.

You know I didn't see anything in the platform that talked about bathrooms.

But I did find this about global warming:

Create the renewable energy revolution. Scientists are sounding the alarm on climate change. In order to avoid the worst case scenario and a dystopian future we need a massive green revolution. It’s time to drastically and immediately move away from fossil fuels and develop the technologies of the future. This will be a giant boon to both the private and public sector, as well as a necessary response to a global crisis. We can and we must be #1 in sustainable energy production in the world.

 

[timschochet]

Hairyleg Girl:  Something is showing up on the Radical Radar

Mr. Kumbaya:  What is it?

Hairyleg Girl:  It's...it looks like...Oh, no!  Dr. Capitalist and his goons are heading towards Planned Parenthood!

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

Kind of incoherent. A little early for drunk posting.

"Income inequality is no match for the Redistributor."

 

[NCCommish]

Yeah the 2.5 million men and women that rely on Planned Parenthood are probably laughing their asses off.

 

[NCCommish]

"Income inequality is no match for the Redistributor."

So we aren't going for substantive but for the lolz. Cool enjoy yourself. Hopefully you'll get to the funny part soon.

 

[NCCommish]

So you guys enjoy the comedy stylings I have to take off for a bit.

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

So we aren't going for substantive but for the lolz. Cool enjoy yourself. Hopefully you'll get to the funny part soon.

I'd be doing better if I knew anything about comic books. 

 

[timschochet]

Yeah the 2.5 million men and women that rely on Planned Parenthood are probably laughing their asses off.

Cmon now. I give money to Planned Parenthood. 

But Hairyleg Girl? Mr. Kumbaya? That's funny! You need to have more of a sense of humor. 

 

[NCCommish]

I'd be doing better if I knew anything about comic books. 

Yeah you got a nice start but you aren't really hitting the notes. Marvel has an online app. But stick with the golden age stuff.

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

So you guys enjoy the comedy stylings I have to take off for a bit.

:ducksintophonebooth:

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

Yeah you got a nice start but you aren't really hitting the notes. Marvel has an online app. But stick with the golden age stuff.

Tough but fair,

 

[NCCommish]

Cmon now. I give money to Planned Parenthood. 

But Hairyleg Girl? Mr. Kumbaya? That's funny! You need to have more of a sense of humor. 

I don't know tim. It just didn't work for me. I guess it's because I have actually had several conversations recently with people who are truly worried about what will happen to them so currently I got no chuckles to give on the subject.