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The ***OFFICIAL*** 2018 Pittsburgh Steelers Thread (1 Viewer)

Id say the biggest diff from Rudolph to Landry, was the depth of passes at college.

Both played plenty of spread offenses that made for some easy collegiate looks and reads.  But Landy was a 7ypa player every year.  While Mason was a phenomenal 10.0+ ypa last year and 9+ the year before. Im hoping we have some coaching to help him get dialed in, like I would hope with any QB taken after rounds 1 or 2.

 
Bracie Smathers said:
You hate Landry Jones?

You know you just took his doppelganger in Mason Rudolph. 
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Smathers, while it may be true, you're a propagandist and hater -- so your posts have no value regardless of what is or what isnt. 

* And I am absolutely fine with the risk.  Landry. Dobbs. Take a shot on Mason.

 
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What’s this ####### hang up on Reid? You see any other team begging to get him right now? How do you not trust this FO with that decision at this point? They’ve had very few busts and the ones that have, have at least served as a role player during their rookie contract. 

 
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Bojang0301 said:
What’s this ####### hang up on Reid? You see any other team begging to get him right now? How do you not trust this FO with that decision at this point? They’ve had very few busts and the ones that have, have at least served as a role player during their rookie contract. 
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:tebow:

 
I hated the Laundry Jones and Dobbs picks when they happened. The Mason pick confirms I was right.  The jury is out on Mason but either Dobbs or Jones are done in Pittsburgh

 
It’s hard to draft a success at QB. I don’t fault them for giving Rudolph a shot. Being the 3rd that’s practically free for a QB some were thinking may go in the first. I’m not a fan though. He seemed to lock on WR’s when I watched him. Would be nice to get an athletic ILB added and Jefferson was hanging out there.

 
Bojang0301 said:
It’s hard to draft a success at QB. I don’t fault them for giving Rudolph a shot. Being the 3rd that’s practically free for a QB some were thinking may go in the first. I’m not a fan though. He seemed to lock on WR’s when I watched him. Would be nice to get an athletic ILB added and Jefferson was hanging out there.
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I am pretty underwhelmed with this draft and it is unlikely that anyone they take tomorrow will be of much help this season.  

 
Godsbrother said:
I am pretty underwhelmed with this draft and it is unlikely that anyone they take tomorrow will be of much help this season.  
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Washington is going to be good. Couldn’t have asked for a better fit at WR. Guy is a technician and a deep threat. He could be Deandre Hopkins lite

 
BigSteelThrill said:
Trying to find a serviceable Hubbard replacement for 4 years. Okorafor makes sense. We always seem to miss games at either OT spot.  :yawn:
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His chance of making the 53 man roster is slim.   His best bet is ending up on the practice squad.  it's waste of a third round pick.

 
moondog said:
His chance of making the 53 man roster is slim.   His best bet is ending up on the practice squad.  it's waste of a third round pick.
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We literally have 0 back up Guards on our roster.

Our only back Center is on his last year of a contract.

That leaves Hawkins as our sole OT back up.

We needed OL depth now and for the future.

Very well could be a waste.  But he has a huge shot at making the roster as it now stands. We may even add a couple more "wasted" rookie linemen.

 
Godsbrother said:
I hated the Laundry Jones and Dobbs picks when they happened.
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I wasnt "pro" either of these. But I was very good with the shot at Landry when they took him.

And even as awful as Landry has proven to be, I was not happy with Dobbs selection. He seemed far removed from being an actual QB and I desperately wanted TE George Kittle at that pick. I coveted one of the many TEs from last years stellar group. Though I hoped he would kick Landry to the curb. Blargh!

 
Couple of defensive players of note with high SPARQ still on board (I have not been tracking CB’s):

Matthew Thomas, Genard Avery, Leon Jacobs, Zaire Franklin, Shaquem Griffin, Godwin Igwebuike, Troy Apke, Josh Sweat, Kylie Fitts, Ogbannia Okoronkwo, Ade Aruna, Maurice Hurst (unsure about SPARQ but athletic 3 tech)

Couple of players worth a what the hell: Josey Jewel, Micah Kiser, Skai Moore, Joe Ostman, James Looney, Duke Ejiofor

 
Bojang0301 said:
Couple of defensive players of note with high SPARQ still on board (I have not been tracking CB’s):

Matthew Thomas, Genard Avery, Leon Jacobs, Zaire Franklin, Shaquem Griffin, Godwin Igwebuike, Troy Apke, Josh Sweat, Kylie Fitts, Ogbannia Okoronkwo, Ade Aruna, Maurice Hurst (unsure about SPARQ but athletic 3 tech)

Couple of players worth a what the hell: Josey Jewel, Micah Kiser, Skai Moore, Joe Ostman, James Looney, Duke Ejiofor
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True but 47 picks will be taken before Pittsburgh first pick in the fifth round.  

 
BigSteelThrill said:
We literally have 0 back up Guards on our roster.

Our only back Center is on his last year of a contract.

That leaves Hawkins as our sole OT back up.

We needed OL depth now and for the future.

Very well could be a waste.  But he has a huge shot at making the roster as it now stands. We may even add a couple more "wasted" rookie linemen.
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The Steelers already had 11 OL on the roster and may add one as a UDFA.   

Jerald Hawkins is Hubbard replacement as the swing tackle.  B. J. Finney is  the first backup at guard and center.  Matt Feiler backups both positions.

Okorafor is an OT - he will have to beat out Hawkins or Matt Feiler to make the roster.  He just started playing football in high school when he moved here from Nigeria.   He may have been drafted to play OG but he still faces long odds.

Could he develop into good player - sure he can with Munchak coaching him but that is two or three years down the road.

 
Bracie Smathers said:
You hate Landry Jones?

You know you just took his doppelganger in Mason Rudolph. 
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I wouldnt say that. There are similarities in that both guys were accurate in a spread offense against suspect Big 12 defenses and we don't yet know how his skills will translate to the NFL. But those are the kinds of guys you can draft in the mid rounds and see what pans out. Or, you know, at #1 overall. 

 
Copying this over from the 2017 thread.. 

I don't want Baker Mayfield or Lamar Jackson.  Either of them could be a Pro Bowler or could be out of the league in 2 years.  They just don't have the prototype characteristics of an NFL QB.  Sure, Mayfield could become Russell Wilson and Jackson could become Randall Cunningham, but I think there's a better chance that they become Johnny Manziel and RG3.  Josh Allen, Sam Darnold, and Josh Rosen will all be gone long before 28.  That leaves only one possibility that I find intriguing.

Mason Rudolph, Oklahoma State.  There are those that believe he will be the most reliable starting QB in this draft.  Others dislike him.  However, most of the knocks I've seen on him revolve around the fact that he plays in a spread offense.  That's problematic because we have very little to go by when trying to project him to a pro-style offense.  However, there are clear-cut positives working for him.  1 - He has a big arm.  Not Josh Allen big, but he has enough arm strength to make every throw in the NFL, including the 9 route. 2 - He's accurate.  Yes, the spread gives him a lot of open receivers to throw to, but I've also seen him throw receivers open against tight coverage on occasion.  The tool is there.  3 - He doesn't turn the ball over a lot.  He seems to go through his reads well and doesn't force things. 4 - He has above-average feet.  No one is going to mistake him for Michael Vick, and Jackson is going to get all the hubbub over the 40 time he will (likely) run, but Rudolph has above average athleticism and can make a play with his feet when needed, a la Bortles. 5 - He's poised in the pocket.  When pressure comes, he steps up rather than bailing out and sprinting left or right.

Bottom line, as with almost any rookie QB, there's bust risk there.  However, I don't see any red flags on tape that would scream "flop" at me.  In fact, I see a lot of tools that could translate to the pro level.  The combine may flesh some things out, but he looks every bit of 6' 5" and about 225 to me, so unless he has Trump hands, position drills and taking snaps from under center are going to be the big things NFL teams want to see.  My concern is he'll do better than expected in this arena and launch himself into early-mid 1st round discussion.  We'll see.  The good news (for us picking #28, if they decide to draft a QB) is that he likely will need a year or two to get acclimated to an NFL offensive scheme and get a lot of reps under center before teams are willing to throw him out there.  Unlike most teams looking for a QB in the first, we have that time to wait on him if they think he's a potential franchise QB going forward.  Those are hard to get after the first 10-12 picks, it's an Easter egg hunt if you're hoping to find a Brady in the late rounds.

 
Much of what I said there months ago still applies. There's a chance that Rudolph never turns out to be anything more than Landry or Dobbs, but there's also a chance that he becomes a solid NFL starter. I'm fine with spending a third round pick on him, better than fine actually. They HAVE to have a succession plan in place for whenever Ben gets hurt/retires or we're going to be living in the post-Bradshaw years again. Throw as many darts as you need to at that board. 

 
A fifth round LB isnt going to help this year. 

Ben’s window is almost closed and I just feel like with the trade and picks, that we may be wasting a season. 

 
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Some commentary on Mason Rudolph, mechanically.  A few YT vids, for reference.

Here's Luck, throwing downfield.

Here's a Josh Allen highlight reel.  Go to 1:06 to see a good, clean pocket laser.

Here's an entire Steeler-sponsored Mason Rudolph highlight reel.

For those unaware, when you view a Youtube vid, you can pause it and then move frame by frame using the < and > keys.  It's useful for watching mechanics.

I've taught throwing mechanics for 20 years.  My background is in baseball, but I've worked with QB's, tennis players, and badminton players as well, since overarm throwing basics translate, sport to sport.  I harp on this stuff when scouting QB's, but 

Luck is an absolute mechanical monster.  Textbook.  With his size, and his lever length, great mechanics mean that he is able to throw with tightness and velocity such that even defenders with 4.3 NFL athleticism simply won't be able to react in time to stop plays developing downfield.  He does this by, in order:

  • Driving his hips square to the target. (In a typical pocket setting, this will begin with a solid plant, then a weight transfer.  Technique differs on the move, but don't worry about that right now.)  The hips must come square to the velocity vector BEFORE the shoulders.  This creates tension all through the core, which will unwind and power the throw.
  • Then allowing the shoulder girdle to catch up and square to the target AFTER the hips, but BEFORE the arm begins to unwind.  The velocity with which this torsion happens forces the arm to rotate externally from the shoulder, laying back, cocking like a catapult.  This hip/shoulder separation and passive arm combo is utterly essential to making powerful throws downfield against high level coverage athletes.
  • And only then, allowing a loose slingshot of an arm to release toward the target, firing the ball, with the arm whipping across and through it toward the target.
This fully-integrated body, and passive (but violent) arm action is literally the ONLY way to create a powerful ball downfield.

It is also, unfortunately, not the way most people throw.  Including most successful college-level QB's.  It's why top-shelf throwers are such a commodity, and why so many successful college QB simply aren't regarded as legit pro prospects.

If you watch Josh Allen, you see the same things.  That's why he reads off the charts in terms of ball velocity, and why when he throws 60 yard bombs, they track like lasers.  Allen has issues to overcome, but they're about scaling down those world class mechanics to more usable, abbreviated versions on shorter fields, and for short touch throws.  Very coachable stuff.

Now watch the entire Rudolph tape, and really, any entire Rudolph tape you can find.

He uses scaled down mechanics on 100% of throws.  When forced to throw 50 yards downfield, he doesn't showcase that segmented hip-drive, hip-shoulder separation, shoulder-girdle catchup, passive-arm kinetic chain.  He simply doesn't possess those mechanics.  He squares all the way up first, and then powers the ball from his shoulder.  We call it "arming the ball."  It's ENTIRELY possible for a big man with long levers to throw 50 yards plus in this way, and Rudolph can.  It's entirely possible to be incredibly successful this way when scheme and talent gaps allow you huge windows to throw into, or grant you huge mismatches in coverage.

But it comes at a price.  He hangs the ball.  When he has success downfield, he's having it because James Washington (or whoever -- congrats on getting a great WR there, BTW) is running free or making a great catch against an overwhelmed Big 12 DB.  He's scheme and talent dependent to create those opportunities downfield.

If you don't know exactly what to look for in the way he segments (or fails to connect) his mechanics, the throwing styles look nearly identical.  But people still see that the ball "hangs" a little more than a Luck/Allen type deep throw.  It doesn't get there quite as fast, or on quite as aggressive a trajectory.  And the difference is that in the pros, defensive schemes and defensive players are all excellent.  The windows that allow you to feather a ball deep in college demand you rocket it into a rapidly closing window as a pro.  And when you "arm" every type of throw, you will never, ever have windows to create as a pro QB.  It becomes virtually impossible for you to have success beyond dink & dunk, and if you get thrown into a situation where you have to run an O that relies on creating downfield, you'll struggle to keep your TD/INT over 1/1.

The biggest problem is that full-body, integrated kinetic chain mechanics are practically impossible to learn as an adult.  Triple especially when they have to be learned at the highest possible level of athleticism against people getting paid millions to exploit your every flaw.

This stuff, I'm afraid, is going to severely limit Rudolph's potential as an NFL QB.  (Incidentally, if you're looking for a QB prospect still on the board who does have the mechanical potential to develop into a legit NFL level starting QB in a pro style offense, check out the mechanics on Kyle Lauletta.  Nails.)

There's more, of course, to creating a pro QB than just mechanics.  Size, mental makeup, athleticism, etc.  But mechanical deficiencies are one of the things that set a ceiling, and these sorts of flaws set it fairly low, I fear.

 
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Wow. I don't know where you came from, and I hated reading much of your post - haha - but I hope you post here more. This is fascinating stuff. 

 
Interesting choice in music for that Rudolph highlight video. :lmao:

One thing I do notice as a plus in this video is that he does seem to possess solid accuracy. He seems to, at his best, throw receivers open, which is I talent I like. He seems to regularly put the ball where it needs to be, though I agree 100% that his deep balls tend to hang up. 

Out of curiosity, what's your take on the mechanics of the other 1st round QBs in this draft, as well as the top NFL guys like Brees, Brady, Eli, Ben, Rivers, etc? Any standouts, a la Luck or guys that have overcome questionable mechanics to have success despite delivery flaws? 

P. S. I love Allen too. A lot has been made of his inaccuracy but I think he has a ton going for him and has the most potential of anyone in this class. 

 
Evilgrin 72 said:
I wouldnt say that. There are similarities in that both guys were accurate in a spread offense against suspect Big 12 defenses and we don't yet know how his skills will translate to the NFL. But those are the kinds of guys you can draft in the mid rounds and see what pans out. Or, you know, at #1 overall. 
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:lmao:

Shots fired

 
I think we may have been better served to get a LB here. To me, Allen is a similar player to Edmunds, this makes me think he's either a backup/special teams guy or they plan to try to develop Edmunds as a FS, which isn't really his game. Either that, or perhaps this indicates a further shift from the base 3-4 to more nickel/dime sub packages where guys like Allen and Edmunds are downhill box safety/hybrid ILBs. 

 
Burnett, Davis, Berhe, Wilcox, Edmunds, Allen, M. Golden, Dangerfield. That's a lot of safeties, and that's not even considering that there was talk of converting Brian Allen to S (I'm now guessing that won't happen.) 

 
Evilgrin 72 said:
I think we may have been better served to get a LB here. To me, Allen is a similar player to Edmunds, this makes me think he's either a backup/special teams guy or they plan to try to develop Edmunds as a FS, which isn't really his game. Either that, or perhaps this indicates a further shift from the base 3-4 to more nickel/dime sub packages where guys like Allen and Edmunds are downhill box safety/hybrid ILBs. 
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I was hoping for Avery at 148. He went to the Browns at 150

 
I'd love to see Okoronkwo at 165 if he's still there. Not sure why he hasn't been picked yet, but he could potentially be an inside/outside guy. If they truly covet position flexibility and athleticism, there's your guy. 

 
Evilgrin 72 said:
I think we may have been better served to get a LB here. To me, Allen is a similar player to Edmunds, this makes me think he's either a backup/special teams guy or they plan to try to develop Edmunds as a FS, which isn't really his game. Either that, or perhaps this indicates a further shift from the base 3-4 to more nickel/dime sub packages where guys like Allen and Edmunds are downhill box safety/hybrid ILBs. 
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I think Edmunds might be a LB eventually. I think they use him as a rookie in sub packages at LB for sure.

 
He is only about 10 pounds lighter than Shazier. He looks like he has the frame to play 10-15 pounds heavier without losing much speed.

 
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