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The Official "Horrible Coaching" thread...lots to discuss (1 Viewer)

Ministry of Pain

Ministry of Pain

Footballguy
Long overdue and something we should discuss weekly in here because it has such an impact on the players. I'm gonna start with with Marvin Lewis and a decision that I think cost him the game.

Cinci is down 23-10 and they come roaring back and make the score 23-20. They hold Cleveland, get the ball back, and are now driving. They had already picked up 12 yards on a Cedric Benson run because the Browns don't know what to do at this point. Terrell Owens is slicing thru their secondary as he did all day like a hot knife thru melted butter but I said out loud where I was, you could suddenly feel it happening...Marvin Lewis was going to get away from what was working.

1st down at the Cleveland 38 and Benson had just ripped off 10 yards on the ground on 1st and 10, again the Browns have no idea what to do and they decide to throw the ball deep for Andre Caldwell...WHAT? You have so many weapons and that's the play? 2nd down adn they dial his number up again, he gets 7 yds and we get to 3rd down and 3 from the Cleveland 31 with about 5:00 left in the game and it's 4 down territory and Marvin Lewis decides to line up in the shotgun when he could have picked up 3 yds on 2 plays on the ground. Celveland suddenly looked pretty giving on the ground and you should be able to pick up 3 yds rushing on 2 downs when you play the Browns. Instead Cinci gets sacked, about the worst thing that could happen and they have to punt from the Cleveland 41 down 3 points with under 4:30 minutes to play, absolutely disgraceful.

That loss will come back and haunt them but Marvin Lewis is one of the 1st nominees. I'm sure there are many other blunders today. Please chime in and try not to make it player specific...like your guy didn't catch any balls today. I'm looking for specific strategy where the coaching really comes into question. You can blame OCs as well as head coaches.

 
How about the Colts calling timeout on the Jags last drive, which allowed them to have time to get in FG range for the winning score? Awful.

 
PizzaDeliveryGuy said:
Ministry of Pain said:
PizzaDeliveryGuy said:
No credit at all to the Browns?
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Cinci had them on the ropes and they line up shotgun as they get inside the Cleveland 35, after being down 23-10, close it to 23-20...Benson was 2/24 on the drive...I line up and run right at them on 3rd down. Worst case scenario I am in FG range.
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So no, then?
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I give credit to the Browns for showing up, yes. But if Cinci wants to compete with Balt/Pitt in their division they gotta beat the Browns who have NO QBs, NO WRs, nothing really on offense other than that Alstott lookalike, let's get real here. And it's not about Cleveland, fire up a hail to Cleveland thread because they won a game, I'll give you props. This is about poor coaching and Lewis displayed this as he has in the past, again today towards the end of the game. These guys seriously need a game mgr because they absolutely stink at knowing where they are at in the football game. Sorry PDG, hat's off to the Browns for winning the game, but Lewis choked as a coach too IMO.
 
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Andy Reid, for calling a timeout (30 seconds) on a short 4th-and-goal and then not getting his QB back on the field in time to run the next play before the play clock ran out. They settled for a FG when they likely would have had a TD.

 
fatness said:
Andy Reid, for calling a timeout (30 seconds) on a short 4th-and-goal and then not getting his QB back on the field in time to run the next play before the play clock ran out. They settled for a FG when they likely would have had a TD.
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From what I saw, that one was on the refs. Reid called a timeout at the same time that the booth called for a review, and the refs had the timeout run concurrently to the review, which means that when they came back from the review the Eagles thought their timeout was just starting when in reality it was already long over. I was watching the game and nobody on either team or in the booth had any idea what was going on.
 
We can pin that Bengals loss on Marvin and we should as he is the CEO on the field, but he needs to blast Bratkowski for some disastrous calls there. What a joke.

As for the Colts, I just don't know why they called that timeout. I'll be interested to hear Caldwell's explanation on Sirius this week. Not real good.

Chuck Cecil also needs to be mentioned. While his one finger salute to the refs was amusing, it was unnecessary, and I am pretty profane, FYI. It was just dumb and showed a complete lack of composure. When you're a field boss of any level, you can't act like that.

 
here is something I can get on board with McDaniels. He does a pretty good job of game management and has huge stones. See multiple going for it on 4th downs.

 
Man In The Box said:
Ghost Rider said:
How about the Colts calling timeout on the Jags last drive, which allowed them to have time to get in FG range for the winning score? Awful.
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:goodposting: Couldn't believe my ears when I heard the announcer say that it was Indy who called timeout. I thought he misspoke.
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:goodposting:Just mind-boggling. Caldwell stated that he'd do it exactly the same if he had another chance, too. Didn't want the Jags to "run out the clock on them".
 
fatness said:
Andy Reid, for calling a timeout (30 seconds) on a short 4th-and-goal and then not getting his QB back on the field in time to run the next play before the play clock ran out. They settled for a FG when they likely would have had a TD.
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Saved me from typing that ;) Horrible...
 
SSOG said:
fatness said:
Andy Reid, for calling a timeout (30 seconds) on a short 4th-and-goal and then not getting his QB back on the field in time to run the next play before the play clock ran out. They settled for a FG when they likely would have had a TD.
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From what I saw, that one was on the refs. Reid called a timeout at the same time that the booth called for a review, and the refs had the timeout run concurrently to the review, which means that when they came back from the review the Eagles thought their timeout was just starting when in reality it was already long over. I was watching the game and nobody on either team or in the booth had any idea what was going on.
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Agree.I don't remember which game (CHI/GB maybe), but I saw a similar thing happen last week. Officials huddled after the play to determine catch/no catch or something, and apparently let the play clock run the whole time. They finally make their decision and the play clock was already down under 10 seconds.
 
SSOG said:
fatness said:
Andy Reid, for calling a timeout (30 seconds) on a short 4th-and-goal and then not getting his QB back on the field in time to run the next play before the play clock ran out. They settled for a FG when they likely would have had a TD.
Click to expand...
From what I saw, that one was on the refs. Reid called a timeout at the same time that the booth called for a review, and the refs had the timeout run concurrently to the review, which means that when they came back from the review the Eagles thought their timeout was just starting when in reality it was already long over. I was watching the game and nobody on either team or in the booth had any idea what was going on.
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The Redskins were aware the play clock was running down. There was a shot of McNabb and other Skins on the sideline watching it and signaling to throw the flag for delay of game. If Redskin players were aware of it, Reid certainly should have been aware of it.
 
Bruce Arians, the Steelers offensive coordinator was brutal in yesterday's loss to the Ravens. Dude was having Batch chucking low percentage deep balls all day. Ward usually has monster games against Baltimore but he was in the witness protection program yesterday. Also someone needs to tell Arians that the screen pass is still allowable in the NFL.

 
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Man In The Box said:
Ghost Rider said:
How about the Colts calling timeout on the Jags last drive, which allowed them to have time to get in FG range for the winning score? Awful.
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:popcorn: Couldn't believe my ears when I heard the announcer say that it was Indy who called timeout. I thought he misspoke.
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:mellow: Caldwell blew the game calling TO with 36 seconds left. Had Caldwell not called that TO the Jags would have probably let the clock run out and let it go to OT.
 
singletary, for just being singletary. his whole toughguy thing is backfiring on him and he looks like he'll stroke out if they go 0-5

 
Da Guru said:
Man In The Box said:
Ghost Rider said:
How about the Colts calling timeout on the Jags last drive, which allowed them to have time to get in FG range for the winning score? Awful.
Click to expand...
:goodposting: Couldn't believe my ears when I heard the announcer say that it was Indy who called timeout. I thought he misspoke.
Click to expand...
:goodposting: Caldwell blew the game calling TO with 36 seconds left. Had Caldwell not called that TO the Jags would have probably let the clock run out and let it go to OT.
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Jags were going to OT, they were not calling a timeout. I couldn't believe the Colts stopped the clock, especially after Drew ripped off a seven yard run on them on first down, it was almost like the were behind and were trying to win in regulation. Why not go to OT, there would've been plenty of chances to win the game there.
 
RichRod throwing a bomb from his own 30 after Michigan grabbed momentum from Sparty down 14 with 14 minutes left. What an idiot.

 
Max Power said:
Rex Ryan thorwing the ball on second down with 2:09 left while trying to run the clock down. WTH?
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Add to that: running a "quick" play on 1st down that failed to get the clock under 2:40. If he would have just run off a FEW MORE SECONDS on 1st down, then the 2nd down play wouldn't have mattered.
 
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Joe Summer said:
Max Power said:
Rex Ryan thorwing the ball on second down with 2:09 left while trying to run the clock down. WTH?
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Add to that: running a "quick" play on 1st down that failed to get the clock under 2:40. If he would have just run off a FEW MORE SECONDS on 1st down, then the 2nd down play wouldn't have mattered.
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I sort of agree, but that wasn't easy. The clock was stopped at 2:47; not many running plays take 7 seconds. I can see the argument for like a double reverse, but obviously not the safest of plays in pouring rain. Not many things you can do to run 7 seconds off the clock there without taking a big loss in yards or a big risk in the play call.
 
Max Power said:
Rex Ryan thorwing the ball on second down with 2:09 left while trying to run the clock down. WTH?
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Rex Ryan wasn't the one throwing the ball.The pass call was absolutely the right call there; Sanchez was a huge goat snapping with 2:09 to go. Inexcusable, but that one is squarely on the player. There were only two seconds between the play clock and the 2:00 warning, and snapping with 2:03 to go there was something a 5th grader could have told you. (And you pass in that situation, since an incomplete pass will always take at least 3 seconds.)
 
Childress screwed that up there, too. The play for the first down ended at 2:51, at which point Minnesota let four seconds tick off the clock before calling timeout, which could have been disastrous had the Jets actually waited till 2:03 or so to run the 2nd down play.

Neither blunded ended up really mattering, as the Sanchez bailed Childress out by running the play too quickly, and then the Jets defense bailed Sanchez out by picking Favre off the secure the game, but it was horrible game management by both teams.

And even if Sanchez is the one running the play, he should have been coached good enough to where he should have known to do that, so Ryan doesn't get a pass for that.

 
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I'm going to steal from Bill Simmons here and seriously suggest/ponder why teams don't spend a few dozen k and hire some statstical geek (aka Madden guru) for making general game decisions - specifically 2-minute clock management, when to punt, when to go for 2, etc. It seems so odd that in the NFL there are some really good coaches who just seemed to be strapped by basic statistical analysis and continue to make -EV decisions. For example, look at tonight's game - featured two coaches who are great with personnel, dealing with the media, and putting together decent gameplans. Yet Chilly's 2-point decision with that much time on the clock compounded by having to call a timeout (something any decent Madden player would NEVER do) changed the entire complexion of that game. NY's clock management at the end, too, was bad (while I agree with the playcalls themselves, how do you not really to your players when to call hike).

Other guys who also come to meet this description are Andy Reid, Norv Turner, Wade Phillips, etc. All overall good coaches yet I'd be willing to bet a statistical analysis of their game decisions have hurt their respective teams in the aggregate - mind-boggling when you think about it compared to other sports. IMO it seems this ineptness is only present in football - and I'm not sure why. Baseball, hockey and basketball coaches seem to have a very strong general grasp on the statistical implications of their coaching decisions i.e. looking at past lefty-righty matchups, inserting particular shooters/defenders in certain situations, using timeouts, etc. For a recent example look at the now late great Bobby Cox's pinch-hitter maneuvering in game 3 to get Hinkse in the game with the pitching matchup he wanted. Simple yet seemingly so far beyond the apparent scope of the football coach's mind.

I've heard arguments refuting this critique of coaches in the past (particularly when that statistician's analysis came out with the conclusion that coaches need to go for it more on 4th) stating that often times the eb and flow of the game dictate a "feel" type decision and the speed of the game and variety of things going on make it difficult. To the former, that sounds to me like the losing poker player's defense of his -EV decision saying he had a "read" or a "feel" where in the long-run it is still the wrong decision regardless of its individual outcome. To the latter, I'm not buying it. There are multiple coaches doing multiple things. You also have 40 seconds in between plays and three timeouts - likely the most time in between action in any of the major sports. Yeah there is pressure and yes the decisions are tough and can be "close-calls," but it's no excuse for consistent irrational decisions.

When I first read Simmons' suggestion I laughed because I found it to be hyperbole with a minor point. Now I think it is dead on something teams should do. After all, look at the success of GM's in the other sports (particularly Oakland Athletics and Houston Rockets) when they put some cash and time towards permitting extended statistical analysis to influence their game decisions.

 
Zow said:
Yet Chilly's 2-point decision with that much time on the clock compounded by having to call a timeout (something any decent Madden player would NEVER do) changed the entire complexion of that game.
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Speaking of which......I would almost argue that it's better to go for 2 from the 7 yard line than to take the timeout. The timeout is worth more than 1 point.
 
Zow said:
Yet Chilly's 2-point decision with that much time on the clock compounded by having to call a timeout (something any decent Madden player would NEVER do) changed the entire complexion of that game.
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The 2-point decision was the correct one. Here are the scenarios with the score 15-13 (plus 0, 1 or 2 points):1) NYJ doesn't score again. Either you've tied it with the 2-point conversion, or any score wins it for you.

2) NYJ scores a FG. Either you're down by 3 with the 2-point conversion, or any TD wins it for you.

Now the scenario which actually occurred, which the announcer got wrong:

3) NYJ scores a TD (which occurred). Either you're down by 7 with the 2-point conversion, or you're down by 9 because you missed it. You could have been down by 8 with the XP, which may look like a one-score game, but it still requires a two-point conversion. The scenario is exactly the same whether you go for two when you have 13 points or 20 points; you need a TD, an XP, and a 2-point conversion to tie.

So in the first two scenarios, it's clearly better to have tried for two, and in the third, you're in the same situation either way.

But the timeout was inexcusable.

 
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Having a 10 point lead most of the game, his RBs finally putting up a decent day, Mike McCarthy decides to give Jackson and Kuhn all of 13 carries.

Even taking out the 71 yard run (I know, I know) Jackson was running for about 4 per carry. How do you not have 25 carries between the two on a day like that?

 
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CalBear said:
Zow said:
Yet Chilly's 2-point decision with that much time on the clock compounded by having to call a timeout (something any decent Madden player would NEVER do) changed the entire complexion of that game.
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The 2-point decision was the correct one. Here are the scenarios with the score 15-13 (plus 0, 1 or 2 points):1) NYJ doesn't score again. Either you've tied it with the 2-point conversion, or any score wins it for you.

2) NYJ scores a FG. Either you're down by 3 with the 2-point conversion, or any TD wins it for you.

Now the scenario which actually occurred, which the announcer got wrong:

3) NYJ scores a TD (which occurred). Either you're down by 7 with the 2-point conversion, or you're down by 9 because you missed it. You could have been down by 8 with the XP, which may look like a one-score game, but it still requires a two-point conversion. The scenario is exactly the same whether you go for two when you have 13 points or 20 points; you need a TD, an XP, and a 2-point conversion to tie.

So in the first two scenarios, it's clearly better to have tried for two, and in the third, you're in the same situation either way.

But the timeout was inexcusable.
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:confused:
 
fatness said:
SSOG said:
fatness said:
Andy Reid, for calling a timeout (30 seconds) on a short 4th-and-goal and then not getting his QB back on the field in time to run the next play before the play clock ran out. They settled for a FG when they likely would have had a TD.
Click to expand...
From what I saw, that one was on the refs. Reid called a timeout at the same time that the booth called for a review, and the refs had the timeout run concurrently to the review, which means that when they came back from the review the Eagles thought their timeout was just starting when in reality it was already long over. I was watching the game and nobody on either team or in the booth had any idea what was going on.
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The Redskins were aware the play clock was running down. There was a shot of McNabb and other Skins on the sideline watching it and signaling to throw the flag for delay of game. If Redskin players were aware of it, Reid certainly should have been aware of it.
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Reid was still talking to the officials on the sideline with 10 seconds left on that play clock. The officials MOVED THE BALL BACK a full yard...that deserved an explanation. While the refs are under no obligation to reset the play clock, they normally do so when they spend time like that explaining a change like that.Reid screws up plenty...he'll appear n this thread for a real gaffe...this just isn't one of them.
 
CalBear said:
Zow said:
Yet Chilly's 2-point decision with that much time on the clock compounded by having to call a timeout (something any decent Madden player would NEVER do) changed the entire complexion of that game.
Click to expand...
The 2-point decision was the correct one. Here are the scenarios with the score 15-13 (plus 0, 1 or 2 points):1) NYJ doesn't score again. Either you've tied it with the 2-point conversion, or any score wins it for you.

2) NYJ scores a FG. Either you're down by 3 with the 2-point conversion, or any TD wins it for you.

Now the scenario which actually occurred, which the announcer got wrong:

3) NYJ scores a TD (which occurred). Either you're down by 7 with the 2-point conversion, or you're down by 9 because you missed it. You could have been down by 8 with the XP, which may look like a one-score game, but it still requires a two-point conversion. The scenario is exactly the same whether you go for two when you have 13 points or 20 points; you need a TD, an XP, and a 2-point conversion to tie.

So in the first two scenarios, it's clearly better to have tried for two, and in the third, you're in the same situation either way.

But the timeout was inexcusable.
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You make some very good points, but what you're missing is the implied changes of going for one and how if scenario 3 occurs it still keeps it a one-score game and the ways that changes each teams' approach. Also, with that much time left you need to consider what happens if either team score multiple times.
 
Cam Cameron's play call on 4th down last Sunday vs Denver. First drive. Ravens had gotten to the GL & Denver made a great stand bringing up 4th & goal from the 1. I don't have a problem going for it there. If you don't make it, Denver's got to go 99 yards to score a TD or 60+ to even kick a FG. Running McLean & McGahee into the line didn't do much (though, curiously, both Flacco & Rice had no problems scoring from there later on). So Cam calls a pass play - to Haloti Ngata. Ngata falls down on his pattern (he was covered anyway) & Flacco gets sacked back near the 15. Besides giving Denver breathing room, Ngata was shaken up on the play. If he had gotten seriously hurt, it would've been a disaster of a decision.

I love Cam - he's by far the best play caller the Ravens have ever had. I hope his 1-15 season in Miami keeps anyone else from hiring him away. But sometimes he gets a little too cute in his Mad Scientist sort of way.

 
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