The Old Final Standing Tiebreaker Question! (1 Viewer)

[spOOfy]

Rules, as written:

The following tiebreakers are applied in the following order until there is no more tie. Note that in the event of more than two teams being tied, whenever a team is dropped by a tie-breaker rule, the remaining tied teams go back to the beginning of the tie-breaker rules to determine the proper standing order. For example, three teams are tied for second place and their head-to-head records were all 2-2. If one of the three teams has 4 divisional wins and the other 2 teams have 3 wins, team with 4 divisional wins gets 2nd place and the remaining two teams go back to the beginning of the tie-breaker rules to see who wins 3rd and 4th place. In the same example, if two teams had 4 divisional wins and the third only had 3, the team with 3 divisional wins would secure 4th place, the two remaining teams would go back to the beginning of the tie-breaker rules to determine who wins 2nd and 3rd place. Team with the most number of wins Team with the least number of losses Head to Head record between the tied teams Team with the most 'in Conference' wins Team with the least 'in Conference' losses Team with the most Total Regular Season Points Scored Team with the most points scored in the combined games played Head to Head between the tied teams If a two-way tie, use a Coin Flip, otherwise pull from hat.

SCENARIOCCR/Diggers/Bullies all at 7-6 and tied for 2nd place. All 3 of them have 4-4 divisional records. CCR 1800 points / Bullies 1750 / Diggers 1700CCR/Diggers - Diggers sweepCCR/Bullies - Split 1-1Bullies/Diggers - Split 1-1RULING 1:CCR gets eliminated from this round of tiebreaking because of the Diggers sweep. In that case, we go back to beginning tiebreakers between Diggers/Bullies. That would be division, which they both have 4-4. In that case, we go to points. Bullies gets the edge here by 50 points and gets 2nd place.We then return to CCR/Diggers and start over on tiebreaks. Diggers swept CCR so Diggers gets 3rd.RULING 2:In 4 H2H matches against the tied opponentsiggers 3-1 Bullies 2-2CCR 1-3Diggers get 2nd place because he has the most head-to-head wins. We then return to a CCR/Bullies tiebreak. Because they split and division record is same, it would come down to points. CCR has 50 points on Bullies. CCR gets 3rd place.RULING 3:In 4 H2H matches against the tied opponentsiggers 3-1 Bullies 2-2CCR 1-3Diggers has most H2H wins so he gets 2nd. Bullies is next in line, so he gets 3rd. CCR had least wins and gets 4th.

 

[spOOfy]

If this should be Assistant Coach Forum, let me know. But it seemed to fit more into the rules/commish type question.

By the way, I am not any of the teams involved. I'm just an innocent bystander who has trouble figuring out these rules. In addition, I am a very vocal about switching to total points as the 1st tiebreaker. I find it much easier to break ties in multiple teams and I feel it gives the better team the nod in ties.

Anyway, I look forward to any thoughts on this. If nothing else, we can clean up our rules.

(edit because I can't use the short name for ###'t Coach)

 

[spOOfy]

For voters, if you wouldn't mind sharing your rationale, I'd appreciate it. Thanks for the votes so far.

 

[Keepers]

Seems pretty straight forward to me ... Diggers get in on H2H record amongst the 3 teams. Then look at CRC and Bullies straight up, everything is even until points scored where CRC wins out.

 

[bryhamm]

Other.

It really depends on your phrase "Head to Head record between the tied teams". No one team can be excluded based on the H2H line, which is what we do in our league (and I believe what the NFL does). If one of the teams had been swept by the other teams, then that one gets eliminated. You can't do that.

You could interpret it to say winning %, which is what it looks like you are trying to do. I would skip over H2H and end up deciding it based on "Team with the most Total Regular Season Points Scored " ... which would give CCR the spot.

 

[Sarnoff]

Other.

It really depends on your phrase "Head to Head record between the tied teams". No one team can be excluded based on the H2H line, which is what we do in our league (and I believe what the NFL does). If one of the teams had been swept by the other teams, then that one gets eliminated. You can't do that.

You could interpret it to say winning %, which is what it looks like you are trying to do. I would skip over H2H and end up deciding it based on "Team with the most Total Regular Season Points Scored " ... which would give CCR the spot.

H2H in a 3-way tie in the NFL is only used if one team has swept each of the others its tied with.

 

[spOOfy]

Other.It really depends on your phrase "Head to Head record between the tied teams". No one team can be excluded based on the H2H line, which is what we do in our league (and I believe what the NFL does). If one of the teams had been swept by the other teams, then that one gets eliminated. You can't do that.You could interpret it to say winning %, which is what it looks like you are trying to do. I would skip over H2H and end up deciding it based on "Team with the most Total Regular Season Points Scored " ... which would give CCR the spot.

Okay, so what you're saying is that it should go directly to points as all 3 teams make it there. In that case, CCR gets 2nd. Then we return to beginning for Diggers & Bullies. As it turns out, they split and continue down line again to points. In that case, Bullies get in over Diggers.So CCR 2nd, Bullies 3rd, Diggers 4th.I can see that too.This just got a whole lots more interestingerererer.

 

[bryhamm]

Other.It really depends on your phrase "Head to Head record between the tied teams". No one team can be excluded based on the H2H line, which is what we do in our league (and I believe what the NFL does). If one of the teams had been swept by the other teams, then that one gets eliminated. You can't do that.You could interpret it to say winning %, which is what it looks like you are trying to do. I would skip over H2H and end up deciding it based on "Team with the most Total Regular Season Points Scored " ... which would give CCR the spot.

Okay, so what you're saying is that it should go directly to points as all 3 teams make it there. In that case, CCR gets 2nd. Then we return to beginning for Diggers & Bullies. As it turns out, they split and continue down line again to points. In that case, Bullies get in over Diggers.So CCR 2nd, Bullies 3rd, Diggers 4th.I can see that too.This just got a whole lots more interestingerererer.

Yes, that is how we handle it in our league and how the NFL handles it as well.

 

[rick6668]

Rules, as written:

The following tiebreakers are applied in the following order until there is no more tie. Note that in the event of more than two teams being tied, whenever a team is dropped by a tie-breaker rule, the remaining tied teams go back to the beginning of the tie-breaker rules to determine the proper standing order. For example, three teams are tied for second place and their head-to-head records were all 2-2. If one of the three teams has 4 divisional wins and the other 2 teams have 3 wins, team with 4 divisional wins gets 2nd place and the remaining two teams go back to the beginning of the tie-breaker rules to see who wins 3rd and 4th place. In the same example, if two teams had 4 divisional wins and the third only had 3, the team with 3 divisional wins would secure 4th place, the two remaining teams would go back to the beginning of the tie-breaker rules to determine who wins 2nd and 3rd place.

Team with the most number of wins

Team with the least number of losses

Head to Head record between the tied teams

Team with the most 'in Conference' wins

Team with the least 'in Conference' losses

Team with the most Total Regular Season Points Scored

Team with the most points scored in the combined games played Head to Head between the tied teams

If a two-way tie, use a Coin Flip, otherwise pull from hat.

The bolded above tells me that when you say "Head to Head record between the tied teams", you mean combined HTH.Does one team really play another 4 times to get a 2-2 HTH record? I assume when you specified 2-2 HTH, you mean combined HTH records. If you don't play other treams 4 times in the season, the 2-2 HTH would absolutely make no sense.

In that case Diggers 3-1, Bullies 2-2, CCR 1-3. Diggers gets a spot and you re-rank the other 2 and it goes to points where CCR gets the next spot and Bullies is out.

I know this is not the way the NFL does it, but unless you play your opponents 4 times in the year, this is the only way to make sense of the 2-2 HTH.

 

[TWP]

Rules, as written:

The following tiebreakers are applied in the following order until there is no more tie. Note that in the event of more than two teams being tied, whenever a team is dropped by a tie-breaker rule, the remaining tied teams go back to the beginning of the tie-breaker rules to determine the proper standing order. For example, three teams are tied for second place and their head-to-head records were all 2-2. If one of the three teams has 4 divisional wins and the other 2 teams have 3 wins, team with 4 divisional wins gets 2nd place and the remaining two teams go back to the beginning of the tie-breaker rules to see who wins 3rd and 4th place. In the same example, if two teams had 4 divisional wins and the third only had 3, the team with 3 divisional wins would secure 4th place, the two remaining teams would go back to the beginning of the tie-breaker rules to determine who wins 2nd and 3rd place.

Team with the most number of wins

Team with the least number of losses

Head to Head record between the tied teams

Team with the most 'in Conference' wins

Team with the least 'in Conference' losses

Team with the most Total Regular Season Points Scored

Team with the most points scored in the combined games played Head to Head between the tied teams

If a two-way tie, use a Coin Flip, otherwise pull from hat.

The bolded above tells me that when you say "Head to Head record between the tied teams", you mean combined HTH.Does one team really play another 4 times to get a 2-2 HTH record? I assume when you specified 2-2 HTH, you mean combined HTH records. If you don't play other treams 4 times in the season, the 2-2 HTH would absolutely make no sense.

In that case Diggers 3-1, Bullies 2-2, CCR 1-3. Diggers gets a spot and you re-rank the other 2 and it goes to points where CCR gets the next spot and Bullies is out.

I know this is not the way the NFL does it, but unless you play your opponents 4 times in the year, this is the only way to make sense of the 2-2 HTH.

Agreed. It seems pretty clear from the example (even ignoring the 2-2 numbers, but just the fact that they listed one record for the team instead of two records) that it's talking about winning percentage amongst the three teams. So the top team gets 2nd place and then you go back to the tie-breakers for the other 2.

 

[daveR]

I voted "other" because the situation is unclear. Strictly as written, the team with the 3-1 h2h should be second and the next place should go to the team with the higher total points -- that's what it says. However, to make the h2h work for a 3way, the "eliminate one & go back to the top" would have to be superceeded.

My best interpretation of the intent is that "head to head" is the next highest ranking criterium and should used to rank all three teams, 3-1, 2-2, 1-3.

 

[spOOfy]

I voted "other" because the situation is unclear. Strictly as written, the team with the 3-1 h2h should be second and the next place should go to the team with the higher total points -- that's what it says. However, to make the h2h work for a 3way, the "eliminate one & go back to the top" would have to be superceeded.

My best interpretation of the intent is that "head to head" is the next highest ranking criterium and should used to rank all three teams, 3-1, 2-2, 1-3.

Reading this, it seems you are saying RULING 3 since you are not applying a "return to start". You are saying that the H2H record breaks up all 3 in one shot.

 

[TWP]

I voted "other" because the situation is unclear. Strictly as written, the team with the 3-1 h2h should be second and the next place should go to the team with the higher total points -- that's what it says. However, to make the h2h work for a 3way, the "eliminate one & go back to the top" would have to be superceeded.

My best interpretation of the intent is that "head to head" is the next highest ranking criterium and should used to rank all three teams, 3-1, 2-2, 1-3.

Reading this, it seems you are saying RULING 3 since you are not applying a "return to start". You are saying that the H2H record breaks up all 3 in one shot.

Isn't the rule very explicit about removing the winner of the tie-breaker and then rerunning the tie-breaker progression? Why would you think you could define all three in one shot? That doesn't seem to be what he's saying...

 

[daveR]

I voted "other" because the situation is unclear. Strictly as written, the team with the 3-1 h2h should be second and the next place should go to the team with the higher total points -- that's what it says. However, to make the h2h work for a 3way, the "eliminate one & go back to the top" would have to be superceeded.

My best interpretation of the intent is that "head to head" is the next highest ranking criterium and should used to rank all three teams, 3-1, 2-2, 1-3.

Reading this, it seems you are saying RULING 3 since you are not applying a "return to start". You are saying that the H2H record breaks up all 3 in one shot.

Isn't the rule very explicit about removing the winner of the tie-breaker and then rerunning the tie-breaker progression? Why would you think you could define all three in one shot? That doesn't seem to be what he's saying...

Yeah. That's what I'm saying. Applying head-to-head must either be head-to-head-to-head, or not. All or nothing, I think. Inasmuch as it looks to be an important tiebreaker, I'd apply it.

 

[Sam Quentin]

In the future, H2H should be removed as a tiebreaker.

Go for points. For all of the reasons that make h2h more fun a weekly basis, total points is more fun as a tiebreaker. It's easier to understand, and you know what you're rooting for

 

[spOOfy]

I voted "other" because the situation is unclear. Strictly as written, the team with the 3-1 h2h should be second and the next place should go to the team with the higher total points -- that's what it says. However, to make the h2h work for a 3way, the "eliminate one & go back to the top" would have to be superceeded.

My best interpretation of the intent is that "head to head" is the next highest ranking criterium and should used to rank all three teams, 3-1, 2-2, 1-3.

Reading this, it seems you are saying RULING 3 since you are not applying a "return to start". You are saying that the H2H record breaks up all 3 in one shot.

Isn't the rule very explicit about removing the winner of the tie-breaker and then rerunning the tie-breaker progression? Why would you think you could define all three in one shot? That doesn't seem to be what he's saying...

Turns out, that is what he's saying. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing as I'm trying to keep my opinion out of here as long as possible. I will say that 1 scenario is how I thought the rule was going to be applied, another scenario is how I think it should be applied, and the other one is how is actually is being applied. The 4th scenario brought up also has merit, I just didn't think of it.By the way, according to how I now read the rules, the 2 example contradict each other. In the 1st example, you are using tiebreakers to find top seed and return to start for the next seed. In the other example, you are using tiebreakers to eliminate bottom seed, and the return to start to figure out the other seeds.

 

[spOOfy]

In the future, H2H should be removed as a tiebreaker.Go for points. For all of the reasons that make h2h more fun a weekly basis, total points is more fun as a tiebreaker. It's easier to understand, and you know what you're rooting for

I agree with you whole-heartedly. I am the loudest voice pushing for total points as 1st tiebreaker every season. It's simple and effective, and IMO gives the better tied team the nod. The league I Commish uses total points. I'm not Commish in this one and the majority voted for H2H tiebreakers. So while I agree with you, it does not help my current confusion.

 

[TWP]

I dont think they contradict each other. They are saying "If you can use a tie-breaker to remove one team from the tie, then you do that and then re-run tie-breakers with the other two team". Both examples operate that way. Now you can ask which team should be removed, the top team or the bottom team, in the case where you could do either. But since they are all tied for 2nd, if you can have one team clearly be 2nd by tie-breakers, then I think that's the team that you remove as 2nd place and then you re-run tie-breakers. I can see the argument on this basis for 'removing' both the top and bottom team, though...

Agree that points is better than this rule. Also agree that this rule is written poorly in the three-team scenario.

 

[GloryDaze]

Surprised I'm the only option 3 vote. After the H2H breakup there are no tied teams to reset and go again from the top.

 

[daveR]

CRITERION (sheesh!)

 

[Longhorn daddy]

This dude warned you months ago.

This guy was right.

 

[belljr]

lol - I just honda this but with generic teams and posted the NFL rules since I do the same thing for my league and wanted to see which way the NFL actually does it

 

[belljr]

Other.

It really depends on your phrase "Head to Head record between the tied teams". No one team can be excluded based on the H2H line, which is what we do in our league (and I believe what the NFL does). If one of the teams had been swept by the other teams, then that one gets eliminated. You can't do that.

You could interpret it to say winning %, which is what it looks like you are trying to do. I would skip over H2H and end up deciding it based on "Team with the most Total Regular Season Points Scored " ... which would give CCR the spot.

H2H in a 3-way tie in the NFL is only used if one team has swept each of the others its tied with.

Not in Division only in WCDivison is best H2h % among games played between all the teams.

WC is H2h sweep

 

[spOOfy]

I think it should be ruling 2 as well. You should be in if this happened. Too bad for you Rodgers scored, but at least we have a season to figure this out now.

 

[renesauz]

Rules are clear....ruling two is correct.

 

[belljr]

1995 -

http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/1995_N...ings/id/4745015

# Seattle finished ahead of Denver and Oakland in the AFC West based on best head-to-head record (3-1 to Broncos' 2-2 and Raiders' 1-3).

# Denver finished ahead of Oakland in the AFC West based on head-to-head sweep (2-0).

# St. Louis finished ahead of Carolina and New Orleans in the NFC West

based on best head-to-head record (3-1 to Panthers' 1-3 and Saints' 2-2).

# Carolina finished ahead of New Orleans in the NFC West based on better conference record (4-8 to 3-9).

Carolina and Nor split in the regular season

 

[Mr. Retukes]

If one of the three teams has 4 divisional wins and the other 2 teams have 3 wins, team with 4 divisional wins gets 2nd place

Based on this verbiage, it seems clear that your intent is to "pick the top team" (rather than "eliminate the bottom team") when breaking a 3-way tie. Therefore, when breaking the head-to-head tie between your 3 teams.......Diggers 3-1 H2H2H

Bullies 2-2 H2H2H

CCR 1-3 H2H2H

.......you must pick Diggers. Then you go back and break the 2-way tie between Bullies and CCR (and CCR wins based on most points).

 

[Billy Bats]

Rules, as written:

The following tiebreakers are applied in the following order until there is no more tie. Note that in the event of more than two teams being tied, whenever a team is dropped by a tie-breaker rule, the remaining tied teams go back to the beginning of the tie-breaker rules to determine the proper standing order. For example, three teams are tied for second place and their head-to-head records were all 2-2. If one of the three teams has 4 divisional wins and the other 2 teams have 3 wins, team with 4 divisional wins gets 2nd place and the remaining two teams go back to the beginning of the tie-breaker rules to see who wins 3rd and 4th place.In the same example, if two teams had 4 divisional wins and the third only had 3, the team with 3 divisional wins would secure 4th place, the two remaining teams would go back to the beginning of the tie-breaker rules to determine who wins 2nd and 3rd place.

Team with the most number of wins

Team with the least number of losses

Head to Head record between the tied teams

Team with the most 'in Conference' wins

Team with the least 'in Conference' losses

Team with the most Total Regular Season Points Scored

Team with the most points scored in the combined games played Head to Head between the tied teams

If a two-way tie, use a Coin Flip, otherwise pull from hat.

SCENARIOCCR/Diggers/Bullies all at 7-6 and tied for 2nd place. All 3 of them have 4-4 divisional records. CCR 1800 points / Bullies 1750 / Diggers 1700

CCR/Diggers - Diggers sweep

CCR/Bullies - Split 1-1

Bullies/Diggers - Split 1-1

RULING 1:

CCR gets eliminated from this round of tiebreaking because of the Diggers sweep. In that case, we go back to beginning tiebreakers between Diggers/Bullies. That would be division, which they both have 4-4. In that case, we go to points. Bullies gets the edge here by 50 points and gets 2nd place.

We then return to CCR/Diggers and start over on tiebreaks. Diggers swept CCR so Diggers gets 3rd.

RULING 2:

In 4 H2H matches against the tied opponents:

Diggers 3-1

Bullies 2-2

CCR 1-3

Diggers get 2nd place because he has the most head-to-head wins. We then return to a CCR/Bullies tiebreak. Because they split and division record is same, it would come down to points. CCR has 50 points on Bullies. CCR gets 3rd place.

RULING 3:

In 4 H2H matches against the tied opponents:

Diggers 3-1

Bullies 2-2

CCR 1-3

Diggers has most H2H wins so he gets 2nd. Bullies is next in line, so he gets 3rd. CCR had least wins and gets 4th.

IMO, the bolded part in your rules is incorrect. You should always break a tie for a team to advance, not automatically place a team with a worse record first. The tie in the bolded scenario should be broken between the 2 teams with the same amount of div wins first, then reapply tiebreaker rules with the 3 dicision win team, he may actually have a better h2h record with who is left and get a better seed.Anyway, in your scenario in question, ruling 2 is the correct outcome.