The Tea Party is back in business! (2 Viewers)

[tommyGunZ]

Are the 'centrist' R and D groups closer to each other than they are to their respective far left/right counterparts?

I would say yes.

I would say yes also.

If this is true, can't we just combine the centrists and let the far side types have little fringe groups. The Tea Party, the crazy religious fundies, the Sierra Club enviros and the full-blown socialists could all just go pound sand.

nolabels.org

Be careful wiht the nolabels stuff - there are a few wackos on that list as well.

 

[Slapdash]

So the first point is cut taxes and the second point is to get rid of the debt?

 

[17seconds]

http://isthegovernmentopen.com/

update...

http://isthegovernmentopen.com/

 

[NREC34]

They're doing an awesome job on #9

 

[TPW]

"The base stayed home" is one of the biggest lies that conservatives tell themselves in order to justify the results of the last two national elections. It's true that in red states like Louisiana and Idaho, many in the base stayed home- why shouldn't they? The result was assured. But in the key battleground states like Florida and Ohio, the Republican/conservative base was extremely energized, and they did NOT stay home. But they lost anyhow.

Conservatives need to face reality: they lost not because of the candidate, or because of trickery, or because the public didn't understand the message of conservatism: they lost because the American public understood their message and rejected it. And they're going to continue to lose national elections until that message is modified. If conservatives continue in their attempt to kick out all centrists in the Republican party, or if they bolt to form their own party based on Tea Party principles, the results will be even worse.

I never said that I thought those elections would have turned out any differently than they did. I'm quite aware that the majority of the American populace has rejected Constitutional republicanism (little 'r') in favor of an ever expanding, centralized, European-style welfare state.

That doesn't mean I and those like me are ever going to reject our values in favor of what we consider a vastly inferior system and fundamentally flawed word view. History will record who is right.

No they have not. The majority of Americans still want much more individual freedoms than the European type state will ever allow.

But what they also don't want are extreme solutions, like shutting down the government, or not raising the debt ceiling. They don't want extremists telling women that when they're raped they can't have an abortion. They don't want extremist ANYTHING.

Moderate Republicans are fighting the good fight to keep government limited, to promote free trade, to fight against excessive regulations and taxation when it becomes too high. These are all struggles that can be won in the long run, but you're not helping us. By behaving like a martyr (which you're not) you're only helping the other side.

You keep right on telling yourself that while continuing to sell the children of this nation into debt slavery and while turning a blind eye to the increasingly invasive activities of the Internal Revenue Service, the National Security Agency, and Department of Health and Human Services which now has the power to fine or imprison Americans if they refuse to engage in a private insurance transaction. Freedom my ###.

 

[timschochet]

"The base stayed home" is one of the biggest lies that conservatives tell themselves in order to justify the results of the last two national elections. It's true that in red states like Louisiana and Idaho, many in the base stayed home- why shouldn't they? The result was assured. But in the key battleground states like Florida and Ohio, the Republican/conservative base was extremely energized, and they did NOT stay home. But they lost anyhow.

Conservatives need to face reality: they lost not because of the candidate, or because of trickery, or because the public didn't understand the message of conservatism: they lost because the American public understood their message and rejected it. And they're going to continue to lose national elections until that message is modified. If conservatives continue in their attempt to kick out all centrists in the Republican party, or if they bolt to form their own party based on Tea Party principles, the results will be even worse.

I never said that I thought those elections would have turned out any differently than they did. I'm quite aware that the majority of the American populace has rejected Constitutional republicanism (little 'r') in favor of an ever expanding, centralized, European-style welfare state.

That doesn't mean I and those like me are ever going to reject our values in favor of what we consider a vastly inferior system and fundamentally flawed word view. History will record who is right.

No they have not. The majority of Americans still want much more individual freedoms than the European type state will ever allow.

But what they also don't want are extreme solutions, like shutting down the government, or not raising the debt ceiling. They don't want extremists telling women that when they're raped they can't have an abortion. They don't want extremist ANYTHING.

Moderate Republicans are fighting the good fight to keep government limited, to promote free trade, to fight against excessive regulations and taxation when it becomes too high. These are all struggles that can be won in the long run, but you're not helping us. By behaving like a martyr (which you're not) you're only helping the other side.

You keep right on telling yourself that while continuing to sell the children of this nation into debt slavery and while turning a blind eye to the increasingly invasive activities of the Internal Revenue Service, the National Security Agency, and Department of Health and Human Services which now has the power to fine or imprison Americans if they refuse to engage in a private insurance transaction. Freedom my ###.

Are you actually suggesting that somebody will be imprisoned for not purchasing Obamacare?

 

[badmojo1006]

"The base stayed home" is one of the biggest lies that conservatives tell themselves in order to justify the results of the last two national elections. It's true that in red states like Louisiana and Idaho, many in the base stayed home- why shouldn't they? The result was assured. But in the key battleground states like Florida and Ohio, the Republican/conservative base was extremely energized, and they did NOT stay home. But they lost anyhow.

Conservatives need to face reality: they lost not because of the candidate, or because of trickery, or because the public didn't understand the message of conservatism: they lost because the American public understood their message and rejected it. And they're going to continue to lose national elections until that message is modified. If conservatives continue in their attempt to kick out all centrists in the Republican party, or if they bolt to form their own party based on Tea Party principles, the results will be even worse.

I never said that I thought those elections would have turned out any differently than they did. I'm quite aware that the majority of the American populace has rejected Constitutional republicanism (little 'r') in favor of an ever expanding, centralized, European-style welfare state.

That doesn't mean I and those like me are ever going to reject our values in favor of what we consider a vastly inferior system and fundamentally flawed word view. History will record who is right.

No they have not. The majority of Americans still want much more individual freedoms than the European type state will ever allow.

But what they also don't want are extreme solutions, like shutting down the government, or not raising the debt ceiling. They don't want extremists telling women that when they're raped they can't have an abortion. They don't want extremist ANYTHING.

Moderate Republicans are fighting the good fight to keep government limited, to promote free trade, to fight against excessive regulations and taxation when it becomes too high. These are all struggles that can be won in the long run, but you're not helping us. By behaving like a martyr (which you're not) you're only helping the other side.

You keep right on telling yourself that while continuing to sell the children of this nation into debt slavery and while turning a blind eye to the increasingly invasive activities of the Internal Revenue Service, the National Security Agency, and Department of Health and Human Services which now has the power to fine or imprison Americans if they refuse to engage in a private insurance transaction. Freedom my ###.

Are you actually suggesting that somebody will be imprisoned for not purchasing Obamacare?

I can't decide if his rant is Bluto from Animal House or Howard Beale from Network

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

Tim, I'm pretty sure the Tea Party would be on-board with significant reductions to SS and medicare.

Really? I've never heard one. Can you produce a prominent member of the Tea Party who has called for this? If you do, I will change my mind about that aspect.

Michele Bachmann count? http://www.ontheissues.org/2012/Michele_Bachmann_Social_Security.htm

First link when you google Michele Bachmann and social security. I'm not sure why you wouldn't think that extreme righties like the Tea Partiers wouldn't want to gut Social Security and Medicare. They've hated the safety net from the day it was introduced.

She wants to replace Social Security with a "retirement account".That's not exactly the same thing. But fair enough, let me revise my statement:

1. The belief that President Obama is illegitimate: either born in Kenya, or a Muslim, or a Communist, or a terrorist sympathizer, or the antiChrist: whatever the particulars, the common thread here is that he is evil and trying to destroy America (whereas a non-Tea Party Republican would simply consider Obama to be a Democratic politician whom they disagree with on most issues.)

2. The belief that the budget must be balanced without new taxation, and immediately- not in increments over time, but right now. (Which means, in real terms, that we need to cut the budget by around 800 billion per year in spending right away- no explanation given as to how this would be achieved.)

3. The belief that shutting down the government and not raising the debt ceiling would not be especially harmful- or, if they are harmful, that it's worth it to "burn the ####er down" rather than to continue on our current path.

If you believe that I am misrepresenting any of these positions as representative of the Tea Party, please let me know how. If you believe that any of these positions are not extremist, please let me know which one. If you believe that any of these positions are justifiable, please go ahead and attempt to do so.

Here is the platform that I pulled from http://www.teaparty-platform.com. This may not be the official one, but it was easily found. The quotes are a bonus. Flame away.

Preamble:

The Tea Party Movement is an all-inclusive American grassroots movement with the belief that everyone is created equal and deserves an equal opportunity to thrive in these United States where they may “pursue life, liberty and happiness” as stated in the Declaration of Independence and guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States. No one is excluded from participation in the Tea Party Movement. Everyone is welcomed to join in seeking to achieve the Tea Party Movement goals, which are as follows:

1. Eliminate Excessive Taxes - Excessively high taxes are a burden for those exercising their personal liberty to work hard and prosper as afforded by the Constitution. A fiscally responsible government protects the freedom of its citizens to enjoy the fruits of their own labor without interference from a government that has exceeded its necessary size, scope and reach into the lives of its citizens.

​

“Collecting more taxes than is absolutely necessary is legalized robbery.” --Calvin Coolidge​

“A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.” --Thomas Jefferson​

“Any tax is a discouragement and therefore a regulation.” --Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.​

2. Eliminate the National Debt - By implementing fiscally conservative policies at all levels of government, progress can be made toward eliminating the U.S. National Debt. Massive increases in the National Debt have created and continue to create a huge burden for the next generation of Americans, thus imperiling the country’s short-term and long-term economic health and prosperity.

​

“You cannot escape the responsibility of tomorrow by evading it today.” --Abraham Lincoln​

“If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my child may have peace.” --Thomas Paine, 1776​

“As on the one hand, the necessity for borrowing in particular emergencies cannot be doubted, so on the other, it is equally evident that to be able to borrow upon good terms, it is essential that the credit of a nation should be well established.” --Alexander Hamilton, 1790​

3. Eliminate Deficit Spending - All deficit spending must be eliminated immediately. We insist that government representatives at all levels maintain a fiscally responsible budget and balance the books as would be expected of any American business.

​

“Arbitrary power is most easily established on the ruins of liberty abused to licentiousness.” --George Washington​

“A penny saved is a penny earned.” --Benjamin Franklin​

“Tomorrow, every Fault is to be amended; but that Tomorrow never comes.” --Benjamin Franklin​

​

4. Protect Free Markets - America’s free enterprise system allows businesses to thrive as they compete in the open marketplace and strive toward ever better services and products. Allowing free markets to prosper unfettered by government interference is what propelled this country to greatness with an enduring belief in the industriousness and innovations of the populace.

“That some achieve great success, is proof to all that others can achieve it as well.” --Abraham Lincoln​

“You cannot build character and courage by taking away a man’s initiative and independence.” --Abraham Lincoln​

“The government’s view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.” --Ronald Reagan​

​

5. Abide by the Constitution of the United States - The U.S. Constitution is the supreme law of the land and must be adhered to without exception at all levels of government. This includes the Bill of Rights and other Amendments to the U.S. Constitution and their provisions designed to protect states’ rights and individual liberties.

“A general Dissolution of Principles & Manners will more surely overthrow the Liberties of America than the whole Force of the Common Enemy.” --Samuel Adams, 1779​

“The Constitution is the guide which I will never abandon.” --George Washington​

“We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” --Abraham Lincoln​

​

6. Promote Civic Responsibility - Citizen involvement at the grassroots level allows the voice of the American people to be heard and directs the political behaviors of our representatives at both the

local and national level so they, in turn, may be most effective in working to preserve the life, liberty and pursuit of happiness of this country’s citizens.

“The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave.” --Patrick Henry​

“To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men.” --Abraham Lincoln​

“Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light” --George Washington​

“All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.” --Thomas Jefferson​

​

7. Reduce the Overall Size of Government - A bloated bureaucracy creates wasteful spending that plagues our government. Reducing the overall size, scope and reach of government at both local and national levels will help to eliminate inefficiencies that result in deficit spending which adds to our country’s debt.

“My observation is that whenever one person is found adequate to the discharge of a duty...it is worse executed by two persons, and scarcely done at all if three or more are employed therein.” --George Washington​

“If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people, under the pretense of taking care of them, they must become happy.” --Samuel Adams, 1802​

“Energy and persistence conquer all things.” --Benjamin Franklin​

​

8. Believe in the People - The American people, given their guaranteed freedoms, will thrive in a democratic, capitalist environment which allows individuals to strive toward ever greater achievements, innovations and the efficient production of needed and valued goods and services.

“Industry need not wish.” --Benjamin Franklin​

“Government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the Earth.” --Abraham Lincoln​

“The people will save their government, if the government itself will allow them.” --Abraham Lincoln​

​

9. Avoid the Pitfalls of Politics - American politics is burdened by big money from lobbyists and special interests with an undue influence on the peoples’ representatives. The Tea Party movement is seen as a threat to the entrenched political parties and thus is the continual target of smear campaigns and misrepresentation of its ideals. We choose not to respond to these attacks except to strongly and explicitly disavow any and all hate speech, any and all violence as well as insinuations of violence, and any and all extreme and fringe elements that bring discredit to the Tea Party Movement. We are a peaceful movement and respect other's opinions and views even though they do not agree with our own. We stand by the Tea Party beliefs and goals and choose to focus our energies on ensuring that our government representatives do the same.

“I am a firm believer in the people. If given the truth, they can be depended upon to meet any national crisis. The great point is to bring them the real facts.” --Abraham Lincoln​

“Honesty is the best policy.” --Benjamin Franklin​

“Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism.” --George Washington​

​

10. Maintain Local Independence - The strength and resilience of a grassroots movement is the ability of citizens at the local level to determine their own platforms, agendas and priorities free of an overriding central leadership. Exercising the clearly stated message of the Tea Party movement by its nature involves discourse about which policies and candidates best hold to our stated principles, and these various opinions should flourish and evolve at the local level.

Kind of reads like the unibomber manifesto.

 

[TPW]

"The base stayed home" is one of the biggest lies that conservatives tell themselves in order to justify the results of the last two national elections. It's true that in red states like Louisiana and Idaho, many in the base stayed home- why shouldn't they? The result was assured. But in the key battleground states like Florida and Ohio, the Republican/conservative base was extremely energized, and they did NOT stay home. But they lost anyhow.

Conservatives need to face reality: they lost not because of the candidate, or because of trickery, or because the public didn't understand the message of conservatism: they lost because the American public understood their message and rejected it. And they're going to continue to lose national elections until that message is modified. If conservatives continue in their attempt to kick out all centrists in the Republican party, or if they bolt to form their own party based on Tea Party principles, the results will be even worse.

I never said that I thought those elections would have turned out any differently than they did. I'm quite aware that the majority of the American populace has rejected Constitutional republicanism (little 'r') in favor of an ever expanding, centralized, European-style welfare state.

That doesn't mean I and those like me are ever going to reject our values in favor of what we consider a vastly inferior system and fundamentally flawed word view. History will record who is right.

No they have not. The majority of Americans still want much more individual freedoms than the European type state will ever allow.

But what they also don't want are extreme solutions, like shutting down the government, or not raising the debt ceiling. They don't want extremists telling women that when they're raped they can't have an abortion. They don't want extremist ANYTHING.

Moderate Republicans are fighting the good fight to keep government limited, to promote free trade, to fight against excessive regulations and taxation when it becomes too high. These are all struggles that can be won in the long run, but you're not helping us. By behaving like a martyr (which you're not) you're only helping the other side.

You keep right on telling yourself that while continuing to sell the children of this nation into debt slavery and while turning a blind eye to the increasingly invasive activities of the Internal Revenue Service, the National Security Agency, and Department of Health and Human Services which now has the power to fine or imprison Americans if they refuse to engage in a private insurance transaction. Freedom my ###.

Are you actually suggesting that somebody will be imprisoned for not purchasing Obamacare?

http://money.usnews.com/money/blogs/the-best-life/2013/09/23/countdown-to-obamacare-the-penalties-for-uninsured-americans

Effective Jan. 1, 2014, Obamacare requires all eligible individuals, including children, to have health insurance. Failure to be insured can trigger a penalty fee of $95 per adult and $47.50 per child in 2014. If you have individual coverage but your dependent children aren't insured, you can still face penalties on them.

No one knows how many Americans will be without health insurance in 2014. A 2012 estimate by the Congressional Budget Office estimated that about 30 million Americans will not have insurance in 2016, and roughly 6 million of them will face penalties. The penalties for individuals are expected to increase each year, and the uninsured will have to pay either a fee or percent of household income (whichever is greater).


In 2014, the fee is $95 per adult or 1 percent of household income.

In 2015, the fee is $325 per adult or 2 percent of household income.

In 2016, the fee is $695 per adult or 2.5 percent of household income.

The Internal Revenue Service is the enforcement arm of Obamacare for DHHS. What do you think they're going to do if someone refuses to pay the fines, say, "Pretty please with sugar on top?" What if someone has no financial assets for the IRS to seize?

 

[Class Dismissed]

"The base stayed home" is one of the biggest lies that conservatives tell themselves in order to justify the results of the last two national elections. It's true that in red states like Louisiana and Idaho, many in the base stayed home- why shouldn't they? The result was assured. But in the key battleground states like Florida and Ohio, the Republican/conservative base was extremely energized, and they did NOT stay home. But they lost anyhow.

Conservatives need to face reality: they lost not because of the candidate, or because of trickery, or because the public didn't understand the message of conservatism: they lost because the American public understood their message and rejected it. And they're going to continue to lose national elections until that message is modified. If conservatives continue in their attempt to kick out all centrists in the Republican party, or if they bolt to form their own party based on Tea Party principles, the results will be even worse.

I never said that I thought those elections would have turned out any differently than they did. I'm quite aware that the majority of the American populace has rejected Constitutional republicanism (little 'r') in favor of an ever expanding, centralized, European-style welfare state.

That doesn't mean I and those like me are ever going to reject our values in favor of what we consider a vastly inferior system and fundamentally flawed word view. History will record who is right.

No they have not. The majority of Americans still want much more individual freedoms than the European type state will ever allow.

But what they also don't want are extreme solutions, like shutting down the government, or not raising the debt ceiling. They don't want extremists telling women that when they're raped they can't have an abortion. They don't want extremist ANYTHING.

Moderate Republicans are fighting the good fight to keep government limited, to promote free trade, to fight against excessive regulations and taxation when it becomes too high. These are all struggles that can be won in the long run, but you're not helping us. By behaving like a martyr (which you're not) you're only helping the other side.

You keep right on telling yourself that while continuing to sell the children of this nation into debt slavery and while turning a blind eye to the increasingly invasive activities of the Internal Revenue Service, the National Security Agency, and Department of Health and Human Services which now has the power to fine or imprison Americans if they refuse to engage in a private insurance transaction. Freedom my ###.

Are you actually suggesting that somebody will be imprisoned for not purchasing Obamacare?

Are you saying that it isn't in the law as currently written?

 

[Dr Oadi]

"The base stayed home" is one of the biggest lies that conservatives tell themselves in order to justify the results of the last two national elections. It's true that in red states like Louisiana and Idaho, many in the base stayed home- why shouldn't they? The result was assured. But in the key battleground states like Florida and Ohio, the Republican/conservative base was extremely energized, and they did NOT stay home. But they lost anyhow.

Conservatives need to face reality: they lost not because of the candidate, or because of trickery, or because the public didn't understand the message of conservatism: they lost because the American public understood their message and rejected it. And they're going to continue to lose national elections until that message is modified. If conservatives continue in their attempt to kick out all centrists in the Republican party, or if they bolt to form their own party based on Tea Party principles, the results will be even worse.

I never said that I thought those elections would have turned out any differently than they did. I'm quite aware that the majority of the American populace has rejected Constitutional republicanism (little 'r') in favor of an ever expanding, centralized, European-style welfare state.

That doesn't mean I and those like me are ever going to reject our values in favor of what we consider a vastly inferior system and fundamentally flawed word view. History will record who is right.

No they have not. The majority of Americans still want much more individual freedoms than the European type state will ever allow.But what they also don't want are extreme solutions, like shutting down the government, or not raising the debt ceiling. They don't want extremists telling women that when they're raped they can't have an abortion. They don't want extremist ANYTHING.

Moderate Republicans are fighting the good fight to keep government limited, to promote free trade, to fight against excessive regulations and taxation when it becomes too high. These are all struggles that can be won in the long run, but you're not helping us. By behaving like a martyr (which you're not) you're only helping the other side.

You keep right on telling yourself that while continuing to sell the children of this nation into debt slavery and while turning a blind eye to the increasingly invasive activities of the Internal Revenue Service, the National Security Agency, and Department of Health and Human Services which now has the power to fine or imprison Americans if they refuse to engage in a private insurance transaction. Freedom my ###.

Are you actually suggesting that somebody will be imprisoned for not purchasing Obamacare?

Are you saying that it isn't in the law as currently written?

Who knows what changes to the law Obama made today.

 

[Dr Oadi]

No prison for you non tax penalty payer...yet

BLOCK: And, if you were to say, I'm not going to pay the penalty, what happens? What's the enforcement mechanism?

JOST: Well, if you were expecting a refund, they will deduct it from your refund. If you were not expecting a refund, then there's not much they can do to you. The statute prohibits them from imposing criminal penalties. It prohibits them from levying against your property. It prohibits them from putting a lien on your property. It would just remain an outstanding obligation to the IRS.

http://www.npr.org/2012/06/29/156005219/how-health-laws-taxes-penalties-will-be-enforced

 

[cstu]

No prison for you non tax penalty payer...yet

BLOCK: And, if you were to say, I'm not going to pay the penalty, what happens? What's the enforcement mechanism?

JOST: Well, if you were expecting a refund, they will deduct it from your refund. If you were not expecting a refund, then there's not much they can do to you. The statute prohibits them from imposing criminal penalties. It prohibits them from levying against your property. It prohibits them from putting a lien on your property. It would just remain an outstanding obligation to the IRS.

http://www.npr.org/2012/06/29/156005219/how-health-laws-taxes-penalties-will-be-enforced

That's more than a 'just'.

 

[timschochet]

I haven't encountered this imprisonment shtick before. It's fascinating.

 

[Maelstrom]

I still don't understand why some in this thread are so afraid of a movement designed to make the government more efficient. That's all the Tea Party is designed to do. Fight for a decrease in government influence on our lives. Lower taxes. Elimination of governmental waste.

A lot of you are like that meme of Fry from Futurama with a fist full of dollars saying "shut up and take my money"

Why are you so ready to just give all of your money to the government and say "please take care of me daddy"

I would love to see the gov't become more efficient. I think it is incredibly wasteful. But the reason I oppose the Tea Party is due to a few reasons.

1) The TP tactics are horrible, and dangerous to the country as a whole.

2) The rhetoric spewed from TP is untrue. More untrue than the lies most politicians spew.

3) The insistence that anyone that doesn't agree with the TP in any way is a socialist slobbering at the heels of the gov't begging for scraps. Sometime people disagree, that doesn't make them bad people.

4) The TP tries to simplify the message so much (which sounds like a good thing) but in doing so, obfuscates the underlying issues and push their agenda through misinformation.

I would love to see a movement where the group of people acknowledge that there are things government can do well, where it isn't the big bad boogeyman. At the same time, a group that also holds the government accountable when it isn't efficient, insists on the gov't handing things back to the private sector when that is the right move. A group that backs politicians that tell the truth, and doesn't punish politicians for making tough compromises.

Never happen, but I keep waiting.

 

[Lutherman2112]

4. Protect Free Markets - America’s free enterprise system allows businesses to thrive as they compete in the open marketplace and strive toward ever better services and products. Allowing free markets to prosper unfettered by government interference is what propelled this country to greatness with an enduring belief in the industriousness and innovations of the populace.

Free markets. That's cute

 

[BigSteelThrill]

4. Protect Free Markets - America’s free enterprise system allows businesses to thrive as they compete in the open marketplace and strive toward ever better services and products. Allowing free markets to prosper unfettered by government interference is what propelled this country to greatness with an enduring belief in the industriousness and innovations of the populace.

Free markets. That's cute

☝

 

[Mr. Pickles]

I still don't understand why some in this thread are so afraid of a movement designed to make the government more efficient. That's all the Tea Party is designed to do. Fight for a decrease in government influence on our lives. Lower taxes. Elimination of governmental waste.

A lot of you are like that meme of Fry from Futurama with a fist full of dollars saying "shut up and take my money"

Not sure if serious.

 

[Dr Oadi]

I haven't encountered this imprisonment shtick before. It's fascinating.

Usually when you don't pay your taxes jail is an option. This case it isn't. For now.

 

[timschochet]

I haven't encountered this imprisonment shtick before. It's fascinating.

Usually when you don't pay your taxes jail is an option. This case it isn't. For now.

Is this a tax? Or a fine?

 

[Dr Oadi]

I haven't encountered this imprisonment shtick before. It's fascinating.

Usually when you don't pay your taxes jail is an option. This case it isn't. For now.

Is this a tax? Or a fine?

If it was a fine then it would be unconstitutional per John turncoat Roberts.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

I haven't encountered this imprisonment shtick before. It's fascinating.

Usually when you don't pay your taxes jail is an option. This case it isn't. For now.

Is this a tax? Or a fine?

If it was a fine then it would be unconstitutional per John turncoat Roberts.

If it is a tax and you don't pay your taxes...I don't understand how there cannot eventually be repercussions.Typically what happens with the IRS is if you are "short" one year it all gets rolled into what you owe the following year and there are no provisions where they care where the shortfall originated and the penalty would be the same as if you just decided not to pay your taxes.

For example, if they say you owe $100 from last year (in 2015 for 2014) and there is some tax refund that is supposed to go out, they will just deduct that $100 from your credit (or absorb your credit entirely if you owe more).

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

I haven't encountered this imprisonment shtick before. It's fascinating.

Usually when you don't pay your taxes jail is an option. This case it isn't. For now.

Is this a tax? Or a fine?

If it was a fine then it would be unconstitutional per John turncoat Roberts.

If it is a tax and you don't pay your taxes...I don't understand how there cannot eventually be repercussions.

It is a tax. The repercussions are that you won't get a refund until it's paid.

Typically what happens with the IRS is if you are "short" one year it all gets rolled into what you owe the following year and there are no provisions where they care where the shortfall originated and the penalty would be the same as if you just decided not to pay your taxes.

I'm fairly certain that they keep all the years separate. If you still owe them money for any previous year, you won't get a refund until it's paid off. But it's not like your 2012 obligation becomes part of your 2013 obligation. The accounting is separate for each year, and each payment you make is designated for a particular year. I believe the payer gets to pick the year that a given payment is counted toward, though. So if you owe $100 for the Obamacare tax in 2014, and $100 for your income tax in 2015, when you send a $100 payment in 2016, you can specify that it's for 2015 rather than 2014. So the 2014 tax just remains unpaid, and nothing else happens until you are owed a refund that you won't get, because the IRS will apply any future refund amounts to your 2014 liability (and any other liabilities) until it's paid off.

For example, if they say you owe $100 from last year (in 2015 for 2014) and there is some tax refund that is supposed to go out, they will just deduct that $100 from your credit (or absorb your credit entirely if you owe more).

Yes. In other words, no jail time. (That would be unconstitutional.)

 

[Dr Oadi]

I haven't encountered this imprisonment shtick before. It's fascinating.

Usually when you don't pay your taxes jail is an option. This case it isn't. For now.

Is this a tax? Or a fine?

If it was a fine then it would be unconstitutional per John turncoat Roberts.

If it is a tax and you don't pay your taxes...I don't understand how there cannot eventually be repercussions.

It is a tax. The repercussions are that you won't get a refund until it's paid.

Typically what happens with the IRS is if you are "short" one year it all gets rolled into what you owe the following year and there are no provisions where they care where the shortfall originated and the penalty would be the same as if you just decided not to pay your taxes.

I'm fairly certain that they keep all the years separate. If you still owe them money for any previous year, you won't get a refund until it's paid off. But it's not like your 2012 obligation becomes part of your 2013 obligation. The accounting is separate for each year, and each payment you make is designated for a particular year. I believe the payer gets to pick the year that a given payment is counted toward, though. So if you owe $100 for the Obamacare tax in 2014, and $100 for your income tax in 2015, when you send a $100 payment in 2016, you can specify that it's for 2015 rather than 2014. So the 2014 tax just remains unpaid, and nothing else happens until you are owed a refund that you won't get, because the IRS will apply any future refund amounts to your 2014 liability (and any other liabilities) until it's paid off.

For example, if they say you owe $100 from last year (in 2015 for 2014) and there is some tax refund that is supposed to go out, they will just deduct that $100 from your credit (or absorb your credit entirely if you owe more).

Yes. In other words, no jail time. (That would be unconstitutional.)

I do not see how it would be unconstitutional. It is a tax. It is just written in the law that there is no jail time for not paying this tax. That doesn't mean in the future the law couldn't be changed to be enforced exactly like other taxes are.

 

[spreagle]

There is just so much crazy in this thread.

And it's only from one side, amiright?

Seems its always posters who attempt to put the "crazy" or "extremists" label on people they disagree are usually the most crazy.

I gave very specific reasons as to why I consider the Tea Party to be extremist. Once again:1. The belief that President Obama is illegitimate: either born in Kenya, or a Muslim, or a Communist, or a terrorist sympathizer, or the antiChrist: whatever the particulars, the common thread here is that he is evil and trying to destroy America (whereas a non-Tea Party Republican would simply consider Obama to be a Democratic politician whom they disagree with on most issues.)

2. The belief that the budget must be balanced without new taxation, and without significant changes to Social Security, Medicare, or defense spending.

3. The belief that shutting down the government and not raising the debt ceiling would not be especially harmful- or, if they are harmful, that it's worth it to "burn the ####er down" rather than to continue on our current path.

If you believe that I am misrepresenting any of these positions as representative of the Tea Party, please let me know how. If you believe that any of these positions are not extremist, please let me know which one. If you believe that any of these positions are justifiable, please go ahead and attempt to do so.

1. On count 1, the tea party probably considers Obama the most anti-constitutional president ever (no need to go thru the laundry list we all know what they are). Probably a belief shared with many Republicans and some democrats. Verdict on count 1, not extremist.

2. On counts 2 and 3, which I consider linked, remember that Nixon himself said in 1971 that international gold convertibility was TEMPORARILY suspended. Why didn't he say PERMANENTLY suspended? Because sound money is important. Sound money is a constitutional idea, it requires a limited government (no fresh new taxes), a relatively balanced budget (some small debt is acceptable) and no ever-rising debt ceiling. If something is declared to be TEMPORARILY suspended, wouldn't you think there are some sort of conditions, once breached, would UNSUSPEND that declaration? How about the national debt going up a trillion a year? Not enough? Two trillion? 5 trillion? Burn the sound money mother down?

Nixon could have just repriced gold but he decided to hold on to it (our reserves might have been totally drained if he didn't suspend gold convertibility or he repriced). He made a judgement call at that time, some would call it crazy, some brilliant, to change things. Putting a stop to hiking the debt is the same type of judgement call. Is now the right time? I dunno. Us little guys probably don't have enough information to understand all the things going on behind he scenes in the monetary world to make the right judgement call at the right time, we never do.

Verdict on counts 2 and 3. No more extremist than Nixon.

 

[TPW]

I haven't encountered this imprisonment shtick before. It's fascinating.

Usually when you don't pay your taxes jail is an option. This case it isn't. For now.

Is this a tax? Or a fine?

If it was a fine then it would be unconstitutional per John turncoat Roberts.

If it is a tax and you don't pay your taxes...I don't understand how there cannot eventually be repercussions.

It is a tax. The repercussions are that you won't get a refund until it's paid.

Typically what happens with the IRS is if you are "short" one year it all gets rolled into what you owe the following year and there are no provisions where they care where the shortfall originated and the penalty would be the same as if you just decided not to pay your taxes.

I'm fairly certain that they keep all the years separate. If you still owe them money for any previous year, you won't get a refund until it's paid off. But it's not like your 2012 obligation becomes part of your 2013 obligation. The accounting is separate for each year, and each payment you make is designated for a particular year. I believe the payer gets to pick the year that a given payment is counted toward, though. So if you owe $100 for the Obamacare tax in 2014, and $100 for your income tax in 2015, when you send a $100 payment in 2016, you can specify that it's for 2015 rather than 2014. So the 2014 tax just remains unpaid, and nothing else happens until you are owed a refund that you won't get, because the IRS will apply any future refund amounts to your 2014 liability (and any other liabilities) until it's paid off.

For example, if they say you owe $100 from last year (in 2015 for 2014) and there is some tax refund that is supposed to go out, they will just deduct that $100 from your credit (or absorb your credit entirely if you owe more).

Yes. In other words, no jail time. (That would be unconstitutional.)

I do not see how it would be unconstitutional. It is a tax. It is just written in the law that there is no jail time for not paying this tax. That doesn't mean in the future the law couldn't be changed to be enforced exactly like other taxes are.

Bingo. The Supreme Court upheld the individual mandate as a tax. People are sent to prison all the time for failure to file their taxes.

Without that ultimate threat of enforceability behind it Obamacare will collapse. The Democrats will never let the crown jewel of their precious entitlements slip away without fighting tooth and nail to save it.

 

[timschochet]

I haven't encountered this imprisonment shtick before. It's fascinating.

Usually when you don't pay your taxes jail is an option. This case it isn't. For now.

Is this a tax? Or a fine?

If it was a fine then it would be unconstitutional per John turncoat Roberts.

If it is a tax and you don't pay your taxes...I don't understand how there cannot eventually be repercussions.

It is a tax. The repercussions are that you won't get a refund until it's paid.

Typically what happens with the IRS is if you are "short" one year it all gets rolled into what you owe the following year and there are no provisions where they care where the shortfall originated and the penalty would be the same as if you just decided not to pay your taxes.

I'm fairly certain that they keep all the years separate. If you still owe them money for any previous year, you won't get a refund until it's paid off. But it's not like your 2012 obligation becomes part of your 2013 obligation. The accounting is separate for each year, and each payment you make is designated for a particular year. I believe the payer gets to pick the year that a given payment is counted toward, though. So if you owe $100 for the Obamacare tax in 2014, and $100 for your income tax in 2015, when you send a $100 payment in 2016, you can specify that it's for 2015 rather than 2014. So the 2014 tax just remains unpaid, and nothing else happens until you are owed a refund that you won't get, because the IRS will apply any future refund amounts to your 2014 liability (and any other liabilities) until it's paid off.

For example, if they say you owe $100 from last year (in 2015 for 2014) and there is some tax refund that is supposed to go out, they will just deduct that $100 from your credit (or absorb your credit entirely if you owe more).

Yes. In other words, no jail time. (That would be unconstitutional.)

I do not see how it would be unconstitutional. It is a tax. It is just written in the law that there is no jail time for not paying this tax. That doesn't mean in the future the law couldn't be changed to be enforced exactly like other taxes are.

Bingo. The Supreme Court upheld the individual mandate as a tax. People are sent to prison all the time for failure to file their taxes.

Without that ultimate threat of enforceability behind it Obamacare will collapse. The Democrats will never let the crown jewel of their precious entitlements slip away without fighting tooth and nail to save it.

I'd be willing to wager any amount of money you name that nobody ever goes to prison for not paying for Obamacare.

 

[timschochet]

There is just so much crazy in this thread.

And it's only from one side, amiright?

Seems its always posters who attempt to put the "crazy" or "extremists" label on people they disagree are usually the most crazy.

I gave very specific reasons as to why I consider the Tea Party to be extremist. Once again:1. The belief that President Obama is illegitimate: either born in Kenya, or a Muslim, or a Communist, or a terrorist sympathizer, or the antiChrist: whatever the particulars, the common thread here is that he is evil and trying to destroy America (whereas a non-Tea Party Republican would simply consider Obama to be a Democratic politician whom they disagree with on most issues.)

2. The belief that the budget must be balanced without new taxation, and without significant changes to Social Security, Medicare, or defense spending.

3. The belief that shutting down the government and not raising the debt ceiling would not be especially harmful- or, if they are harmful, that it's worth it to "burn the ####er down" rather than to continue on our current path.

If you believe that I am misrepresenting any of these positions as representative of the Tea Party, please let me know how. If you believe that any of these positions are not extremist, please let me know which one. If you believe that any of these positions are justifiable, please go ahead and attempt to do so.

1. On count 1, the tea party probably considers Obama the most anti-constitutional president ever (no need to go thru the laundry list we all know what they are). Probably a belief shared with many Republicans and some democrats. Verdict on count 1, not extremist.2. On counts 2 and 3, which I consider linked, remember that Nixon himself said in 1971 that international gold convertibility was TEMPORARILY suspended. Why didn't he say PERMANENTLY suspended? Because sound money is important. Sound money is a constitutional idea, it requires a limited government (no fresh new taxes), a relatively balanced budget (some small debt is acceptable) and no ever-rising debt ceiling. If something is declared to be TEMPORARILY suspended, wouldn't you think there are some sort of conditions, once breached, would UNSUSPEND that declaration? How about the national debt going up a trillion a year? Not enough? Two trillion? 5 trillion? Burn the sound money mother down?

Nixon could have just repriced gold but he decided to hold on to it (our reserves might have been totally drained if he didn't suspend gold convertibility or he repriced). He made a judgement call at that time, some would call it crazy, some brilliant, to change things. Putting a stop to hiking the debt is the same type of judgement call. Is now the right time? I dunno. Us little guys probably don't have enough information to understand all the things going on behind he scenes in the monetary world to make the right judgement call at the right time, we never do.

Verdict on counts 2 and 3. No more extremist than Nixon.

Gotta be shtick right?

 

[RCon]

I'd be willing to wager any amount of money you name that nobody ever goes to prison for not paying for Obamacare.

Why? The only way you can win the bet is if Obamacare is repealed. As long as it's in force, there's always the possibility that you could lose the bet.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

Gotta be shtick right?

Nope! Just representative of the "independents" that make up "the middle".

 

[Steve Tasker]

Typically what happens with the IRS is if you are "short" one year it all gets rolled into what you owe the following year and there are no provisions where they care where the shortfall originated and the penalty would be the same as if you just decided not to pay your taxes.

I'm fairly certain that they keep all the years separate. If you still owe them money for any previous year, you won't get a refund until it's paid off. But it's not like your 2012 obligation becomes part of your 2013 obligation. The accounting is separate for each year, and each payment you make is designated for a particular year. I believe the payer gets to pick the year that a given payment is counted toward, though. So if you owe $100 for the Obamacare tax in 2014, and $100 for your income tax in 2015, when you send a $100 payment in 2016, you can specify that it's for 2015 rather than 2014. So the 2014 tax just remains unpaid, and nothing else happens until you are owed a refund that you won't get, because the IRS will apply any future refund amounts to your 2014 liability (and any other liabilities) until it's paid off.

Yeah, what Jojo said is totally incorrect. IRS liabilities are 100% definitely kept separate by years, not rolled into one conglomerate number.

 

[DrJ]

I haven't encountered this imprisonment shtick before. It's fascinating.

Usually when you don't pay your taxes jail is an option. This case it isn't. For now.

Is this a tax? Or a fine?

If it was a fine then it would be unconstitutional per John turncoat Roberts.

If it is a tax and you don't pay your taxes...I don't understand how there cannot eventually be repercussions.

It is a tax. The repercussions are that you won't get a refund until it's paid.

Typically what happens with the IRS is if you are "short" one year it all gets rolled into what you owe the following year and there are no provisions where they care where the shortfall originated and the penalty would be the same as if you just decided not to pay your taxes.

I'm fairly certain that they keep all the years separate. If you still owe them money for any previous year, you won't get a refund until it's paid off. But it's not like your 2012 obligation becomes part of your 2013 obligation. The accounting is separate for each year, and each payment you make is designated for a particular year. I believe the payer gets to pick the year that a given payment is counted toward, though. So if you owe $100 for the Obamacare tax in 2014, and $100 for your income tax in 2015, when you send a $100 payment in 2016, you can specify that it's for 2015 rather than 2014. So the 2014 tax just remains unpaid, and nothing else happens until you are owed a refund that you won't get, because the IRS will apply any future refund amounts to your 2014 liability (and any other liabilities) until it's paid off.

For example, if they say you owe $100 from last year (in 2015 for 2014) and there is some tax refund that is supposed to go out, they will just deduct that $100 from your credit (or absorb your credit entirely if you owe more).

Yes. In other words, no jail time. (That would be unconstitutional.)

I do not see how it would be unconstitutional. It is a tax. It is just written in the law that there is no jail time for not paying this tax. That doesn't mean in the future the law couldn't be changed to be enforced exactly like other taxes are.

Bingo. The Supreme Court upheld the individual mandate as a tax. People are sent to prison all the time for failure to file their taxes.

Without that ultimate threat of enforceability behind it Obamacare will collapse. The Democrats will never let the crown jewel of their precious entitlements slip away without fighting tooth and nail to save it.

I'd be willing to wager any amount of money you name that nobody ever goes to prison for not paying for Obamacare.

Paging Dr. Gobbler.

 

[timschochet]

I'd be willing to wager any amount of money you name that nobody ever goes to prison for not paying for Obamacare.

Why? The only way you can win the bet is if Obamacare is repealed. As long as it's in force, there's always the possibility that you could lose the bet.

It was a rhetorical point. There's no way that anybody can ever win the bet. But it will NEVER happen. And for TPW to list the possibility as proof that Obama is some sort of dictator only serves to demonstrate the strange extremism that seems to possess the Tea Party supporters.

 

[DrJ]

The Republicans are dead, tra la tra la.

It's over Tim. But don't worry, 99.99999% of your views are supported by liberals.

 

[DrJ]

The best Republicans could come up with to oppose Obamacare was a guy that rolled it out in Massachusetts. Talk about a bunch of morons.

 

[timschochet]

The Republicans are dead, tra la tra la.

It's over Tim. But don't worry, 99.99999% of your views are supported by liberals.

I think TPW and JoJo are playing Monopoly in the playroom. Why don't you go join them? We're having a grownup talk in here,

 

[badmojo1006]

The best Republicans could come up with to oppose Obamacare was a guy that rolled it out in Massachusetts. Talk about a bunch of morons.

OK, who did you want to oppose Obama in the 2012 election?

 

[DrJ]

The Republicans are dead, tra la tra la.

It's over Tim. But don't worry, 99.99999% of your views are supported by liberals.

I think TPW and JoJo are playing Monopoly in the playroom. Why don't you go join them? We're having a grownup talk in here,

There hasn't been a grown up talk on politics in several decades. Only difference between you and TPW/Jo Jo is that you're playing games with real money and people's lives.

 

[DrJ]

The best Republicans could come up with to oppose Obamacare was a guy that rolled it out in Massachusetts. Talk about a bunch of morons.

OK, who did you want to oppose Obama in the 2012 election?

The orange skinned LDS'er that rolled out Obamacare, of course.

 

[3C's]

For some reason I read that as LSD'er.

 

[DrJ]

So who's the next great hope for Republitards? Outside of the New Jersey fattie, do you guys have anything?

 

[fatness]

Seventy-one percent of Independents in Virginia now view the Republican Party negatively. Just 23% don’t. Sixty-two percent overall have a negative view of the party.

Virginia went 3.9% for Obama in 2012, even though Republicans thought they had it in the bag

link

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

In other words, no jail time. (That would be unconstitutional.)

I do not see how it would be unconstitutional. It is a tax. It is just written in the law that there is no jail time for not paying this tax. That doesn't mean in the future the law couldn't be changed to be enforced exactly like other taxes are.

The Supreme Court upheld the individual mandate as a tax. People are sent to prison all the time for failure to file their taxes.

I've read the Supreme Court's decision in the Obamacare case. It says that Obamacare is constitutional only because, among other things, there is no jail time or other punitive remedies for failure to pay the tax.

 

[DrJ]

Seventy-one percent of Independents in Virginia now view the Republican Party negatively. Just 23% don’t. Sixty-two percent overall have a negative view of the party.

Virginia went 3.9% for Obama in 2012, even though Republicans thought they had it in the bag

link

But you can pretty much count the number of independents on one hand. Their school system has failed them, which is why they're dumb Republitards that don't understand science.

 

[Henry Ford]

In other words, no jail time. (That would be unconstitutional.)

I do not see how it would be unconstitutional. It is a tax. It is just written in the law that there is no jail time for not paying this tax. That doesn't mean in the future the law couldn't be changed to be enforced exactly like other taxes are.

The Supreme Court upheld the individual mandate as a tax. People are sent to prison all the time for failure to file their taxes.

I've read the Supreme Court's decision in the Obamacare case. It says that Obamacare is constitutional only because, among other things, there is no jail time or other punitive remedies for failure to pay the tax.

You're never going to win this argument from the other side's point of view if it requires reading.

 

[MaxThreshold]

So who's the next great hope for Republitards? Outside of the New Jersey fattie, do you guys have anything?

Why, YOU, of course. Let's get this show on the road!

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

Bingo. The Supreme Court upheld the individual mandate as a tax. People are sent to prison all the time for failure to file their taxes.

Without that ultimate threat of enforceability behind it Obamacare will collapse. The Democrats will never let the crown jewel of their precious entitlements slip away without fighting tooth and nail to save it.

I'd be willing to wager any amount of money you name that nobody ever goes to prison for not paying for Obamacare.

The beauty of all this is that if they get sent to prison, they'll get free state provided health care. In fact, maybe declaring a "war on the uninsured" is the best way to solve all our healthcare problems.

 

[timschochet]

In other words, no jail time. (That would be unconstitutional.)

I do not see how it would be unconstitutional. It is a tax. It is just written in the law that there is no jail time for not paying this tax. That doesn't mean in the future the law couldn't be changed to be enforced exactly like other taxes are.

The Supreme Court upheld the individual mandate as a tax. People are sent to prison all the time for failure to file their taxes.

I've read the Supreme Court's decision in the Obamacare case. It says that Obamacare is constitutional only because, among other things, there is no jail time or other punitive remedies for failure to pay the tax.

Waitaminnut. So TPW and the others are just making #### up??? I can't believe it.

 

[fatness]

Republican Civil War Erupts: Business Groups v. Tea Party (Bloomberg link)

A battle for control of the Republican Party has erupted as an emboldened Tea Party moved to oust senators who voted to reopen the government while business groups mobilized to defeat allies of the small-government movement.

“We are going to get engaged,” said Scott Reed, senior political strategist for the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. “The need is now more than ever to elect people who understand the free market and not silliness.”

The intra-party contests come as Republicans seek a net pickup of six seats to regain control of the 100-member chamber that they lost in the 2006 elections. Party leaders are also working to protect their majority in the U.S. House, where they have 232 members to the Democrats’ 200.

Those goals became more difficult after the Tea Party-aligned House and Senate Republicans embraced a plan tying government spending to defunding Obamacare. President Barack Obama and Senate Democrats rejected the proposal and had the power to stop it, and their partisan adversaries took the lion’s share of the blame for the impasse leading to the government shutdown that began Oct. 1.

The Republican Party’s favorability was at a record low of 28 percent in a Gallup Poll conducted Oct. 3-6. That was down 10 percentage points from the previous month and 15 points below Democrats. The Tea Party is less popular now than ever, according to a poll released Oct. 15 by the Pew Research Center. Forty-nine percent of U.S. adults have an unfavorable opinion of the movement, while 30 percent have a favorable one.

 

[SHIZNITTTT]

"The base stayed home" is one of the biggest lies that conservatives tell themselves in order to justify the results of the last two national elections. It's true that in red states like Louisiana and Idaho, many in the base stayed home- why shouldn't they? The result was assured. But in the key battleground states like Florida and Ohio, the Republican/conservative base was extremely energized, and they did NOT stay home. But they lost anyhow.

Conservatives need to face reality: they lost not because of the candidate, or because of trickery, or because the public didn't understand the message of conservatism: they lost because the American public understood their message and rejected it. And they're going to continue to lose national elections until that message is modified. If conservatives continue in their attempt to kick out all centrists in the Republican party, or if they bolt to form their own party based on Tea Party principles, the results will be even worse.

I never said that I thought those elections would have turned out any differently than they did. I'm quite aware that the majority of the American populace has rejected Constitutional republicanism (little 'r') in favor of an ever expanding, centralized, European-style welfare state.

That doesn't mean I and those like me are ever going to reject our values in favor of what we consider a vastly inferior system and fundamentally flawed word view. History will record who is right.

No they have not. The majority of Americans still want much more individual freedoms than the European type state will ever allow.

But what they also don't want are extreme solutions, like shutting down the government, or not raising the debt ceiling. They don't want extremists telling women that when they're raped they can't have an abortion. They don't want extremist ANYTHING.

Moderate Republicans are fighting the good fight to keep government limited, to promote free trade, to fight against excessive regulations and taxation when it becomes too high. These are all struggles that can be won in the long run, but you're not helping us. By behaving like a martyr (which you're not) you're only helping the other side.

You keep right on telling yourself that while continuing to sell the children of this nation into debt slavery and while turning a blind eye to the increasingly invasive activities of the Internal Revenue Service, the National Security Agency, and Department of Health and Human Services which now has the power to fine or imprison Americans if they refuse to engage in a private insurance transaction. Freedom my ###.

Are you actually suggesting that somebody will be imprisoned for not purchasing Obamacare?

http://money.usnews.com/money/blogs/the-best-life/2013/09/23/countdown-to-obamacare-the-penalties-for-uninsured-americans

Effective Jan. 1, 2014, Obamacare requires all eligible individuals, including children, to have health insurance. Failure to be insured can trigger a penalty fee of $95 per adult and $47.50 per child in 2014. If you have individual coverage but your dependent children aren't insured, you can still face penalties on them.

No one knows how many Americans will be without health insurance in 2014. A 2012 estimate by the Congressional Budget Office estimated that about 30 million Americans will not have insurance in 2016, and roughly 6 million of them will face penalties. The penalties for individuals are expected to increase each year, and the uninsured will have to pay either a fee or percent of household income (whichever is greater).


In 2014, the fee is $95 per adult or 1 percent of household income.

In 2015, the fee is $325 per adult or 2 percent of household income.

In 2016, the fee is $695 per adult or 2.5 percent of household income.

The Internal Revenue Service is the enforcement arm of Obamacare for DHHS. What do you think they're going to do if someone refuses to pay the fines, say, "Pretty please with sugar on top?" What if someone has no financial assets for the IRS to seize?

Payroll deduction.