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The Tea Party is back in business! (1 Viewer)

Obamacare Could Go Way of Prohibition

A blow to the gut tends to be mightier when delivered by the fist of unintended consequences.

In 1923, five years after the implementation of the 18th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution that effectively banned alcohol, Americans felt disillusioned with Prohibition. None of the grand promises of what would follow its passage had come to pass – not even close.

Drunkenness and spousal abuse had increased, as had crime in general; the cost of federal and state government had grown at a pace no one foresaw, and respect for the law at all levels had largely evaporated.

Those and other effects of Prohibition contradicted every reason given for enacting the constitutional amendment.

The economic impact on Main Street was strikingly harmful as well: Breweries, distilleries, hotels, restaurants and pubs closed, leading to the loss of thousands of jobs. Those losses were compounded by cutbacks in industries that supported those businesses, such as truck drivers and skilled tradesmen.

State tax revenues suffered immensely; before Prohibition, excise taxes from liquor sales had funded many state budgets.

On the federal level, billions of dollars in tax revenue also were lost, just as millions of dollars in new costs arose to enforce the law.

The amendment and the accompanying Volstead Act (the federal law that enforced Prohibition) were riddled with loopholes; the amendment banned the sale, transportation or manufacture of spirits, but it did not outlaw possession or consumption of alcohol.

Because of that, a cottage industry of crime was born out of the “great noble experiment.” Although the law was intended to stop Americans from drinking, enterprising people found ways to turn fruit-juicers into wine kits, to “cook” gin in their bathtubs, and to buy distillery kits in hardware stores – all of it illegally.

Corruption among law enforcement officials exploded, and great gobs of cash changed hands for them to guard speakeasies or to look the other way from bootlegging operations. Gangs, syndicated crime and the Mafia expanded to an unprecedented degree.

Prohibition was a movement whose roots were pioneered by Revolutionary War hero Benjamin Rush, followed by a false start before the Civil War, and it picked up again during the Progressive Era, according to historian David Pietrusza.

“Both parties were greatly split with factions of ‘wets’ (those against Prohibition) and ‘drys’ (those in favor of it),” Pietrusza explained.

“A major part of the Progressive reform movement, it was ushered in overwhelmingly by the influential Protestants,” said Eldon Eisenach, emeritus political science professor at the University of Tulsa. “I think that the mobilization of the immigrant vote in the 1930s and disenchantment with enforcement did Prohibition in.”

Today we have a law, not a constitutional amendment, also ushered in by a progressive movement – albeit a very different movement, yet one still pushed forward with its own noble, moral purposes in mind.

Just like Prohibition, ObamaCare promised from its onset to change the world: It would provide universal health-insurance coverage at a lower cost without any reduction in coverage choices or quality care, and all of it easily accessed through a government website.

So far it has been nothing short of a disaster.

It is not lower in cost (premiums for many middle-class purchasers are double those of their current plans, with deductibles tripling), nor is it easily accessed. It has been riddled with exceptions and loopholes benefiting federal employees, labor unions and big businesses.

It also has chipped away at our economy: Many companies are reducing full-time staff to part-time hours, in order to skirt ObamaCare's mandate that employers must provide health-insurance coverage to employees who work 30 or more hours per week.

ObamaCare can be amended easily enough despite its being “the law of the land,” as President Obama loftily proclaims in rejecting Republican demands to repeal, revise or delay it. In fact, rewritten and revised laws are the normal course of legislative history and, over time, odious parts of many laws are often removed.

The critical lesson here is twofold: Be cautious of resolutions that frequently wind up being worse than the problems they set out to fix, and remember that our laws are no place for grand experiments, moral or otherwise.

Read more: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2013/10/20/obamacare_could_go_way_of_prohibition_120395.html#ixzz2iHRFrWNV

Follow us: @RCP_Articles on Twitter

 
Matthias said:
...We'd all like to think consumers are purely rational and calculating when it comes to their finances, but we absolutely know that isn't true.
Anyone who believes the above should never favor free market solutions. Never! If the market does not consist of rational players consistently operating in their own best interest then it can't work to accomplish anything other than the haves exploiting the masses. (Well those few haves eager to exploit the rest would be the exceptions to prove the rule.)
You can have bounded rationality and still a mostly well-operating market. The noise at the edges don't ruin the model as a whole.
Maybe I exaggerated what "purely" was supposed to mean in that I didn't mean "consistently" was 100%. And while I don't think Maelstrom falls into the group, but many here believe that the masses consistently make irrational choices. I disagree. I think the masses consistently make the best of their choices. Just that too much of the time the choices are bad either way.
 
...We'd all like to think consumers are purely rational and calculating when it comes to their finances, but we absolutely know that isn't true.
Anyone who believes the above should never favor free market solutions. Never! If the market does not consist of rational players consistently operating in their own best interest then it can't work to accomplish anything other than the haves exploiting the masses. (Well those few haves eager to exploit the rest would be the exceptions to prove the rule.)
I guess they'd have to be against freedom as a whole as well.
Your disdain for humanity seems to equate to a lack of trust in their ability to be trusted with freedom, but I won't jump from "seems to" to "does" at this point.
 
Maybe I exaggerated what "purely" was supposed to mean in that I didn't mean "consistently" was 100%. And while I don't think Maelstrom falls into the group, but many here believe that the masses consistently make irrational choices. I disagree. I think the masses consistently make the best of their choices. Just that too much of the time the choices are bad either way.
If somebody believed that people don't make rational choices, they wouldn't favor government run things either since the government would be made up of the same irrational people, voted in by irrational people. So in the end wouldnt the choice come down to which choice gives them more money in their pocket or more freedom to choose?

 
Does it matter how many when just a half a week ago the reasonable conservatives were arguing with him? When the "independents" were arguing both sides were responsible for this nonsense?Wouldn't things have gone a lot better if "both sides do it" was true and the reasonable folks rallied across political divides three weeks ago rather than after the dust starts to settle?

(Oh yes I'm sure someone will find some anecdotal example where it would have been helpful if the "reasonable" left helped silence the fringe left to put me in my place. 'grats!)
It really depends on whether we're talking about elected politicians or about the general public. Ninety percent of politicians, from every side, do what is in their own personal best interest. Speaking of them as "reasonable" or "fringe" doesn't really serve much purpose, in my opinion.

When we're talking about the general public, most people believe their opinions represent what's best for the country (or state or town or school or whatever the discussion is about).

 
Matthias said:
Maybe I exaggerated what "purely" was supposed to mean in that I didn't mean "consistently" was 100%. And while I don't think Maelstrom falls into the group, but many here believe that the masses consistently make irrational choices. I disagree. I think the masses consistently make the best of their choices. Just that too much of the time the choices are bad either way.
If somebody believed that people don't make rational choices, they wouldn't favor government run things either since the government would be made up of the same irrational people, voted in by irrational people.
π
Idiocracy
 
Matthias said:
Maybe I exaggerated what "purely" was supposed to mean in that I didn't mean "consistently" was 100%. And while I don't think Maelstrom falls into the group, but many here believe that the masses consistently make irrational choices. I disagree. I think the masses consistently make the best of their choices. Just that too much of the time the choices are bad either way.
If somebody believed that people don't make rational choices, they wouldn't favor government run things either since the government would be made up of the same irrational people, voted in by irrational people.
π
Idiocracy
You guys do on average out breed so given 500 years...
 
Maybe I exaggerated what "purely" was supposed to mean in that I didn't mean "consistently" was 100%. And while I don't think Maelstrom falls into the group, but many here believe that the masses consistently make irrational choices. I disagree. I think the masses consistently make the best of their choices. Just that too much of the time the choices are bad either way.
I do believe the "masses" as a whole make better choices than any one individual can be expected to make. So the "free" market can work, unfortunately, the market is anything but free, it is extremely manipulated by both gov't and big business. And as mentioned, when both choices are bad, it doesn't matter which choice is taken as the free market isn't going to magically make one of them a better choice.

 
People can't do basic math. Look at how many people are in debt, spending over their budget every month, etc. (Again, not talking about the poor, but those that could afford insurance but for one reason or another do not). We'd all like to think consumers are purely rational and calculating when it comes to their finances, but we absolutely know that isn't true.

The threat of a penalty will be enough for those people to adjust their budget to get insurance. And that is what the ACA is banking on. Or they will look at it like JoJo just pointed out and say, why should I pay $2000 for nothing, I'll just figure out how to pay $5000 for insurance.

The disinformation about "going to jail if you can't pay your penalties" shtick is actually likely to help the ACA rather than hurt it, because people will just believe it and go get insurance or will pay their fines. Either one helps the ACA succeed (as much as it can, not arguing the merits of the bill here.)
I agree with a lot of your points, but I think there will be a large portion that just defaults on other bills ie: late payments on credit cards. foreclosures on houses, etc. I mean, I am critical of the ACA, but there are several portions of it I like (especially the pre-existing conditions as I am a Type 1 Diabetic).

However, I just don't see the younger people signing up in droves for this thing. A lot of Dems act like the ACA has finally made healthcare available to this group, but it has been available to them all along--this is just a demographic that tends to be healthy as a majority and doesn't deem this a necessary purchase. This age group is paying for college, struggling to get their first place or making that stupid impulse purchase that so many of us in that age group did (mine was a $2,500 stereo for my car :bag: ).

Think about it this way, healthy 24 year old (no parents available to put him on their insurance) gets a great subsidy and rate of $45.00 a month. Okay, try and tell that 24 year old you now have a $45 a month bill for something you may never use this year or you can buy a PS4?? What would you rather have and guess what they are going to buy? This is the flaw in the program. What I see happening is we are going to have exclusions and "perks" niched out for groups like this to encourage sign up.

I am a State worker so I get my insurance through my employer, so this program doesn't hurt/help me at all, but one of the questions I have is they have deemed this a "tax", so can people itemize this "tax" on their income tax returns?

I think this is going to be a interesting few years to see what happens to this program..

 
I understand all that. Voters like him are helpful at the ballot box and in fundraising, but not when the grownups need to determine policy. Everyone understands this.

I don't just think the JoJo's are as prevalent as you think.
Because of their use in voting and fundraising they now control most of what the House of Representatives does, dominate most of the media coverage about one political party, and will probably control over half of what goes on in that party by 2014. Good job by the "adults."

 
Does it matter how many when just a half a week ago the reasonable conservatives were arguing with him? When the "independents" were arguing both sides were responsible for this nonsense?

Wouldn't things have gone a lot better if "both sides do it" was true and the reasonable folks rallied across political divides three weeks ago rather than after the dust starts to settle?

(Oh yes I'm sure someone will find some anecdotal example where it would have been helpful if the "reasonable" left helped silence the fringe left to put me in my place. 'grats!)
It really depends on whether we're talking about elected politicians or about the general public. Ninety percent of politicians, from every side, do what is in their own personal best interest. Speaking of them as "reasonable" or "fringe" doesn't really serve much purpose, in my opinion.When we're talking about the general public, most people believe their opinions represent what's best for the country (or state or town or school or whatever the discussion is about).
I mean-Was there ever a point for even those that agree with the Tea Party at a high level where shutting down government and playing chicken with the debt ceiling could be seen as a winning strategy either for the pie in the sky goal of killing ObamaCare or for the more reasonable goal of highlighting the deficit/debt/long term liabilities issues?

 
I mean-Was there ever a point for even those that agree with the Tea Party at a high level where shutting down government and playing chicken with the debt ceiling could be seen as a winning strategy either for the pie in the sky goal of killing ObamaCare or for the more reasonable goal of highlighting the deficit/debt/long term liabilities issues?
No, obviously not, which is what I mean in my post above. For the general public, neither the shutdown nor the debt ceiling fight was ever going to accomplish anything positive. For politicians, many of them had reason to believe it would serve their interests.

Examples:

* Boehner - Going along with hard-righties allows him to keep his job as Speaker longer.

* Hard-righties - Their districts probably want them to be hard right, and doing so makes reelection easier.

* Moderate righties in severe right leaning districts - Prevents primary challenge by hard right.

 
Rich Conway said:
Bottomfeeder Sports said:
I mean-Was there ever a point for even those that agree with the Tea Party at a high level where shutting down government and playing chicken with the debt ceiling could be seen as a winning strategy either for the pie in the sky goal of killing ObamaCare or for the more reasonable goal of highlighting the deficit/debt/long term liabilities issues?
No, obviously not, which is what I mean in my post above. For the general public, neither the shutdown nor the debt ceiling fight was ever going to accomplish anything positive. For politicians, many of them had reason to believe it would serve their interests.Examples:

* Boehner - Going along with hard-righties allows him to keep his job as Speaker longer.

* Hard-righties - Their districts probably want them to be hard right, and doing so makes reelection easier.

* Moderate righties in severe right leaning districts - Prevents primary challenge by hard right.
I'm assuming the FFA doesn't contain any DC politicians commenting in this thread....
 
Jojo the circus boy said:
Obamacare Could Go Way of Prohibition
Obamacare very well may go. Unlike Social Security and Medicare, it's not easy to understand. Government programs which cannot be simply explained to the public are often doomed to failure.

But what neither you nor any of the other Tea Party types seem to understand is that if Obamacare does go, it will be replaced, not by a return to status quo, but by a single payer system. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind about this.

 
Jojo the circus boy said:
Obamacare Could Go Way of Prohibition
Obamacare very well may go. Unlike Social Security and Medicare, it's not easy to understand. Government programs which cannot be simply explained to the public are often doomed to failure. But what neither you nor any of the other Tea Party types seem to understand is that if Obamacare does go, it will be replaced, not by a return to status quo, but by a single payer system. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind about this.
The majority of Americans are against Obamacare, I guess you think the Tea Party rules the country.

 
Bottomfeeder Sports said:
DrJ said:
Bottomfeeder Sports said:
Maelstrom said:
...We'd all like to think consumers are purely rational and calculating when it comes to their finances, but we absolutely know that isn't true.
Anyone who believes the above should never favor free market solutions. Never! If the market does not consist of rational players consistently operating in their own best interest then it can't work to accomplish anything other than the haves exploiting the masses. (Well those few haves eager to exploit the rest would be the exceptions to prove the rule.)
I guess they'd have to be against freedom as a whole as well.
Your disdain for humanity seems to equate to a lack of trust in their ability to be trusted with freedom, but I won't jump from "seems to" to "does" at this point.
See, my disdain is mostly towards the government. I actually feel your viewpoint is the one that requires disdain for humanity.

 
Jojo the circus boy said:
Obamacare Could Go Way of Prohibition
Obamacare very well may go. Unlike Social Security and Medicare, it's not easy to understand. Government programs which cannot be simply explained to the public are often doomed to failure. But what neither you nor any of the other Tea Party types seem to understand is that if Obamacare does go, it will be replaced, not by a return to status quo, but by a single payer system. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind about this.
The majority of Americans are against Obamacare, I guess you think the Tea Party rules the country.
A significant percentage of that majority are against Obamacare because they want single payer. If you add that percentage to the people in favor of Obamacare, you get a very different perception of the public than what you're attempting to present here.

 
Bottomfeeder Sports said:
DrJ said:
Bottomfeeder Sports said:
Maelstrom said:
...We'd all like to think consumers are purely rational and calculating when it comes to their finances, but we absolutely know that isn't true.
Anyone who believes the above should never favor free market solutions. Never! If the market does not consist of rational players consistently operating in their own best interest then it can't work to accomplish anything other than the haves exploiting the masses. (Well those few haves eager to exploit the rest would be the exceptions to prove the rule.)
I guess they'd have to be against freedom as a whole as well.
Your disdain for humanity seems to equate to a lack of trust in their ability to be trusted with freedom, but I won't jump from "seems to" to "does" at this point.
See, my disdain is mostly towards the government. I actually feel your viewpoint is the one that requires disdain for humanity.
What viewpoint is that?
 
Jojo the circus boy said:
Obamacare Could Go Way of Prohibition
Obamacare very well may go. Unlike Social Security and Medicare, it's not easy to understand. Government programs which cannot be simply explained to the public are often doomed to failure. But what neither you nor any of the other Tea Party types seem to understand is that if Obamacare does go, it will be replaced, not by a return to status quo, but by a single payer system. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind about this.
Mainly because fake fiscal conservatives such as yourself will stand by and allow that to happen.

 
Bottomfeeder Sports said:
DrJ said:
Bottomfeeder Sports said:
Maelstrom said:
...We'd all like to think consumers are purely rational and calculating when it comes to their finances, but we absolutely know that isn't true.
Anyone who believes the above should never favor free market solutions. Never! If the market does not consist of rational players consistently operating in their own best interest then it can't work to accomplish anything other than the haves exploiting the masses. (Well those few haves eager to exploit the rest would be the exceptions to prove the rule.)
I guess they'd have to be against freedom as a whole as well.
Your disdain for humanity seems to equate to a lack of trust in their ability to be trusted with freedom, but I won't jump from "seems to" to "does" at this point.
See, my disdain is mostly towards the government. I actually feel your viewpoint is the one that requires disdain for humanity.
What viewpoint is that?
All of them?

 
Jojo the circus boy said:
Obamacare Could Go Way of Prohibition
Obamacare very well may go. Unlike Social Security and Medicare, it's not easy to understand. Government programs which cannot be simply explained to the public are often doomed to failure. But what neither you nor any of the other Tea Party types seem to understand is that if Obamacare does go, it will be replaced, not by a return to status quo, but by a single payer system. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind about this.
The majority of Americans are against Obamacare, I guess you think the Tea Party rules the country.
A significant percentage of that majority are against Obamacare because they want single payer. If you add that percentage to the people in favor of Obamacare, you get a very different perception of the public than what you're attempting to present here.
As things stand right now, I think you are right Tim. However, give it some time and take that poll again if the problems with sign ups, rates that aren't what were promised continue, I guarantee you numbers wanting a single payer system will pale in comparison with the numbers of people that simply don't want to pay this tax.

And I can't prove it with numbers, so I admit that right out the box, but I think (note I think) a good chunk of the people that support the ACA are Obama voters who think universal healthcare equates to free healthcare. Once that first bill ooopps I mean tax hits, a lot of them are going to change their tune.

 
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Bottomfeeder Sports said:
DrJ said:
Bottomfeeder Sports said:
Maelstrom said:
...We'd all like to think consumers are purely rational and calculating when it comes to their finances, but we absolutely know that isn't true.
Anyone who believes the above should never favor free market solutions. Never! If the market does not consist of rational players consistently operating in their own best interest then it can't work to accomplish anything other than the haves exploiting the masses. (Well those few haves eager to exploit the rest would be the exceptions to prove the rule.)
I guess they'd have to be against freedom as a whole as well.
Your disdain for humanity seems to equate to a lack of trust in their ability to be trusted with freedom, but I won't jump from "seems to" to "does" at this point.
See, my disdain is mostly towards the government. I actually feel your viewpoint is the one that requires disdain for humanity.
What viewpoint is that?
All of them?
One example?
 
Jojo the circus boy said:
Rich Conway said:
JoJo, I get it, you're a conservative. You can safely ignore liberals who think you're stupid, because you think they're stupid, and they don't know what they're talking about, anyway. But when liberals, moderates, other conservatives, libertarians, and everyone else all tell you that you don't what you're talking about, it should tell you something.
Go buy a $50k car, and if you can't afford it, enjoy getting taxed $20k instead. Can't argue with that stupendous logic.
Considering an actual parallel would be saying a person in Manhattan needs to either buy a $50k car (with zero resale value) or pay a $20k fine, people would certainly choose the fine. Sure, the car might prvide some utility, but its hardly 50k worth of utility.

 
Bottomfeeder Sports said:
DrJ said:
Bottomfeeder Sports said:
Maelstrom said:
...We'd all like to think consumers are purely rational and calculating when it comes to their finances, but we absolutely know that isn't true.
Anyone who believes the above should never favor free market solutions. Never! If the market does not consist of rational players consistently operating in their own best interest then it can't work to accomplish anything other than the haves exploiting the masses. (Well those few haves eager to exploit the rest would be the exceptions to prove the rule.)
I guess they'd have to be against freedom as a whole as well.
Your disdain for humanity seems to equate to a lack of trust in their ability to be trusted with freedom, but I won't jump from "seems to" to "does" at this point.
See, my disdain is mostly towards the government. I actually feel your viewpoint is the one that requires disdain for humanity.
What viewpoint is that?
All of them?
One example?
Your overall faith in big government seems to equate to a belief that people aren't capable of making quality decisions for their own lives, but I won't jump from "seems to" to does at this point.

 
Bottomfeeder Sports said:
If the market does not consist of rational players consistently operating in their own best interest then it can't work to accomplish anything other than the haves exploiting the masses.
That claim seems rather at odds with history.

People have forever been irrational. And yet the use of markets has been the single most effective way to climb out of the abject, society-wide poverty that has plagued most of mankind since the agricultural revolution.

 
Bottomfeeder Sports said:
DrJ said:
Bottomfeeder Sports said:
Maelstrom said:
...We'd all like to think consumers are purely rational and calculating when it comes to their finances, but we absolutely know that isn't true.
Anyone who believes the above should never favor free market solutions. Never! If the market does not consist of rational players consistently operating in their own best interest then it can't work to accomplish anything other than the haves exploiting the masses. (Well those few haves eager to exploit the rest would be the exceptions to prove the rule.)
I guess they'd have to be against freedom as a whole as well.
Your disdain for humanity seems to equate to a lack of trust in their ability to be trusted with freedom, but I won't jump from "seems to" to "does" at this point.
See, my disdain is mostly towards the government. I actually feel your viewpoint is the one that requires disdain for humanity.
What viewpoint is that?
All of them?
One example?
Your overall faith in big government seems to equate to a belief that people aren't capable of making quality decisions for their own lives, but I won't jump from "seems to" to does at this point.
One example of one position of mine that favors "big government" over the people.
 
Bottomfeeder Sports said:
If the market does not consist of rational players consistently operating in their own best interest then it can't work to accomplish anything other than the haves exploiting the masses.
That claim seems rather at odds with history.

People have forever been irrational. And yet the use of markets has been the single most effective way to climb out of the abject, society-wide poverty that has plagued most of mankind since the agricultural revolution.
But are you trying to make life better for society as a whole, or the irrational? This is an important distinction, because BFS isn't necessarily arguing for society as a whole. He seems most concerned with those behaving irrationally who he labels as "have nots".

 
Bottomfeeder Sports said:
DrJ said:
Bottomfeeder Sports said:
Maelstrom said:
...We'd all like to think consumers are purely rational and calculating when it comes to their finances, but we absolutely know that isn't true.
Anyone who believes the above should never favor free market solutions. Never! If the market does not consist of rational players consistently operating in their own best interest then it can't work to accomplish anything other than the haves exploiting the masses. (Well those few haves eager to exploit the rest would be the exceptions to prove the rule.)
I guess they'd have to be against freedom as a whole as well.
Your disdain for humanity seems to equate to a lack of trust in their ability to be trusted with freedom, but I won't jump from "seems to" to "does" at this point.
See, my disdain is mostly towards the government. I actually feel your viewpoint is the one that requires disdain for humanity.
What viewpoint is that?
All of them?
One example?
Your overall faith in big government seems to equate to a belief that people aren't capable of making quality decisions for their own lives, but I won't jump from "seems to" to does at this point.
One example of one position of mine that favors "big government" over the people.
Your attitude towards free markets that spawned this off for one.Since you'd like actual examples to back these sort of assertions though, how about you demonstrate my "disdain for humanity".

 
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And as another example, you've supported social programs in the past on the basis that many people would turn into violent criminals and take everyone else's stuff in their absence. But I'm the guy with "disdain for humanity", which I certainly welcome you to demonstrate.

 
Bottomfeeder Sports said:
If the market does not consist of rational players consistently operating in their own best interest then it can't work to accomplish anything other than the haves exploiting the masses.
That claim seems rather at odds with history.

People have forever been irrational. And yet the use of markets has been the single most effective way to climb out of the abject, society-wide poverty that has plagued most of mankind since the agricultural revolution.
But are you trying to make life better for society as a whole, or the irrational? This is an important distinction, because BFS isn't necessarily arguing for society as a whole. He seems most concerned with those behaving irrationally who he labels as "have nots".
You are now projecting your own beliefs on to me. The poor ("have nots") behave just as rationally in the markets as any other group. They just have, in general poorer choices.I'm not sure what Maurile means by being irrational? Does he mean squandering resources on religion? Or maybe feeding passions rather than needs?

 
Jojo the circus boy said:
Rich Conway said:
JoJo, I get it, you're a conservative. You can safely ignore liberals who think you're stupid, because you think they're stupid, and they don't know what they're talking about, anyway. But when liberals, moderates, other conservatives, libertarians, and everyone else all tell you that you don't what you're talking about, it should tell you something.
Go buy a $50k car, and if you can't afford it, enjoy getting taxed $20k instead. Can't argue with that stupendous logic.
Considering an actual parallel would be saying a person in Manhattan needs to either buy a $50k car (with zero resale value) or pay a $20k fine, people would certainly choose the fine. Sure, the car might prvide some utility, but its hardly 50k worth of utility.
That decision has nothing to do with parking costing $300++ a month in nyc would it? Can you please come up with a possibly worse analogy?

 
Bottomfeeder Sports said:
If the market does not consist of rational players consistently operating in their own best interest then it can't work to accomplish anything other than the haves exploiting the masses.
That claim seems rather at odds with history. People have forever been irrational. And yet the use of markets has been the single most effective way to climb out of the abject, society-wide poverty that has plagued most of mankind since the agricultural revolution.
But are you trying to make life better for society as a whole, or the irrational? This is an important distinction, because BFS isn't necessarily arguing for society as a whole. He seems most concerned with those behaving irrationally who he labels as "have nots".
You are now projecting your own beliefs on to me. The poor ("have nots") behave just as rationally in the markets as any other group. They just have, in general poorer choices.I'm not sure what Maurile means by being irrational? Does he mean squandering resources on religion? Or maybe feeding passions rather than needs?
:lmao: Sorry, I forgot that you patented this routine.

 
And as another example, you've supported social programs in the past on the basis that many people would turn into violent criminals and take everyone else's stuff in their absence. But I'm the guy with "disdain for humanity", which I certainly welcome you to demonstrate.
Doing what it takes to survive is not criminal.
 
Jojo the circus boy said:
Obamacare Could Go Way of Prohibition
Obamacare very well may go. Unlike Social Security and Medicare, it's not easy to understand. Government programs which cannot be simply explained to the public are often doomed to failure. But what neither you nor any of the other Tea Party types seem to understand is that if Obamacare does go, it will be replaced, not by a return to status quo, but by a single payer system. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind about this.
The majority of Americans are against Obamacare, I guess you think the Tea Party rules the country.
A significant percentage of that majority are against Obamacare because they want single payer. If you add that percentage to the people in favor of Obamacare, you get a very different perception of the public than what you're attempting to present here.
I guess the 83% of doctors that are contemplating quitting the profession due to Obamacare must be Tea-Partiers as well.

FWIW: I'm for smaller government, not larger, so stop lumping everyone into the Tea Party column whenever they oppose you, there are many factors at play.

 
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Bottomfeeder Sports said:
If the market does not consist of rational players consistently operating in their own best interest then it can't work to accomplish anything other than the haves exploiting the masses.
That claim seems rather at odds with history. People have forever been irrational. And yet the use of markets has been the single most effective way to climb out of the abject, society-wide poverty that has plagued most of mankind since the agricultural revolution.
But are you trying to make life better for society as a whole, or the irrational? This is an important distinction, because BFS isn't necessarily arguing for society as a whole. He seems most concerned with those behaving irrationally who he labels as "have nots".
You are now projecting your own beliefs on to me. The poor ("have nots") behave just as rationally in the markets as any other group. They just have, in general poorer choices.I'm not sure what Maurile means by being irrational? Does he mean squandering resources on religion? Or maybe feeding passions rather than needs?
:lmao: Sorry, I forgot that you patented this routine.
You don't believe that being poor is largely a function of making bad choices?
DrJ said:
What I really favor is just allowing everyone to live with the consequences of the decisions they've made and allow them to learn and grow from their mistakes. If one of those consequences is being poor and dying, so be it. ...
 
Bottomfeeder Sports said:
If the market does not consist of rational players consistently operating in their own best interest then it can't work to accomplish anything other than the haves exploiting the masses.
That claim seems rather at odds with history. People have forever been irrational. And yet the use of markets has been the single most effective way to climb out of the abject, society-wide poverty that has plagued most of mankind since the agricultural revolution.
But are you trying to make life better for society as a whole, or the irrational? This is an important distinction, because BFS isn't necessarily arguing for society as a whole. He seems most concerned with those behaving irrationally who he labels as "have nots".
You are now projecting your own beliefs on to me. The poor ("have nots") behave just as rationally in the markets as any other group. They just have, in general poorer choices.I'm not sure what Maurile means by being irrational? Does he mean squandering resources on religion? Or maybe feeding passions rather than needs?
:lmao: Sorry, I forgot that you patented this routine.
You don't believe that being poor is largely a function of making bad choices?
DrJ said:
What I really favor is just allowing everyone to live with the consequences of the decisions they've made and allow them to learn and grow from their mistakes. If one of those consequences is being poor and dying, so be it. ...
You believe that making choices not in their own best interest is rational?

If the market does not consist of rational players consistently operating in their own best interest
 
You believe that making choices not in their own best interest is rational?
Which statistically relevant choices are those? The anecdotal Ice Cream cakes?
If the market does not consist of rational players consistently operating in their own best interest
You do realize that the "If" here defines this statement as a condition for the assertion that followed?
I'll take that as a no.

 
Jojo the circus boy said:
Obamacare Could Go Way of Prohibition
Obamacare very well may go. Unlike Social Security and Medicare, it's not easy to understand. Government programs which cannot be simply explained to the public are often doomed to failure. But what neither you nor any of the other Tea Party types seem to understand is that if Obamacare does go, it will be replaced, not by a return to status quo, but by a single payer system. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind about this.
The majority of Americans are against Obamacare, I guess you think the Tea Party rules the country.
A significant percentage of that majority are against Obamacare because they want single payer. If you add that percentage to the people in favor of Obamacare, you get a very different perception of the public than what you're attempting to present here.
I guess the 83% of doctors that are contemplating quitting the profession due to Obamacare must be Tea-Partiers as well.

FWIW: I'm for smaller government, not larger, so stop lumping everyone into the Tea Party column whenever they oppose you, there are many factors at play.
When I saw that figure of 83%, I have to admit I was stunned- and impressed by it- but then I wondered how could it possibly be true? 83% of doctors are going to quit their life's work because of Obamacare? Really? Seems impossible.

Then I looked to see where you got that link. It's from DailyCaller, and the supposed "study" was done by an association I have never heard of before- the Doctor Patient Medical Association. The reason I've never heard of them is because they were founded in 2011, in opposition to Obamacare! And the survey was conducted of doctors who belonged to this new organization. (Which makes me surprised that the results weren't 100%, rather than 83%).

Like Rich, I write this as someone who is opposed to Obamacare: you're not helping. Your information is false and simplistic, your conclusions are wrongheaded and childish, and in general you have no idea what you're talking about. Other than those points, you're doing fine.

 
You believe that making choices not in their own best interest is rational?
Which statistically relevant choices are those? The anecdotal Ice Cream cakes?I'll take that as a no.
Cool. I'll take this as a ...

You don't believe that being poor is largely a function of making bad choices?
You believe that making choices not in their own best interest is rational?
... yes.

.... He seems most concerned with those behaving irrationally who he labels as "have nots".
You are now projecting your own beliefs on to me.
So how was this wrong?

 
Jojo the circus boy said:
Obamacare Could Go Way of Prohibition
Obamacare very well may go. Unlike Social Security and Medicare, it's not easy to understand. Government programs which cannot be simply explained to the public are often doomed to failure. But what neither you nor any of the other Tea Party types seem to understand is that if Obamacare does go, it will be replaced, not by a return to status quo, but by a single payer system. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind about this.
The majority of Americans are against Obamacare, I guess you think the Tea Party rules the country.
A significant percentage of that majority are against Obamacare because they want single payer. If you add that percentage to the people in favor of Obamacare, you get a very different perception of the public than what you're attempting to present here.
I guess the 83% of doctors that are contemplating quitting the profession due to Obamacare must be Tea-Partiers as well.

FWIW: I'm for smaller government, not larger, so stop lumping everyone into the Tea Party column whenever they oppose you, there are many factors at play.
When I saw that figure of 83%, I have to admit I was stunned- and impressed by it- but then I wondered how could it possibly be true? 83% of doctors are going to quit their life's work because of Obamacare? Really? Seems impossible.

Then I looked to see where you got that link. It's from DailyCaller, and the supposed "study" was done by an association I have never heard of before- the Doctor Patient Medical Association. The reason I've never heard of them is because they were founded in 2011, in opposition to Obamacare! And the survey was conducted of doctors who belonged to this new organization. (Which makes me surprised that the results weren't 100%, rather than 83%).

Like Rich, I write this as someone who is opposed to Obamacare: you're not helping. Your information is false and simplistic, your conclusions are wrongheaded and childish, and in general you have no idea what you're talking about. Other than those points, you're doing fine.
:lmao: :lmao:

 
Jojo the circus boy said:
Obamacare Could Go Way of Prohibition
Obamacare very well may go. Unlike Social Security and Medicare, it's not easy to understand. Government programs which cannot be simply explained to the public are often doomed to failure. But what neither you nor any of the other Tea Party types seem to understand is that if Obamacare does go, it will be replaced, not by a return to status quo, but by a single payer system. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind about this.
The majority of Americans are against Obamacare, I guess you think the Tea Party rules the country.
A significant percentage of that majority are against Obamacare because they want single payer. If you add that percentage to the people in favor of Obamacare, you get a very different perception of the public than what you're attempting to present here.
I guess the 83% of doctors that are contemplating quitting the profession due to Obamacare must be Tea-Partiers as well.

FWIW: I'm for smaller government, not larger, so stop lumping everyone into the Tea Party column whenever they oppose you, there are many factors at play.
When I saw that figure of 83%, I have to admit I was stunned- and impressed by it- but then I wondered how could it possibly be true? 83% of doctors are going to quit their life's work because of Obamacare? Really? Seems impossible.Then I looked to see where you got that link. It's from DailyCaller, and the supposed "study" was done by an association I have never heard of before- the Doctor Patient Medical Association. The reason I've never heard of them is because they were founded in 2011, in opposition to Obamacare! And the survey was conducted of doctors who belonged to this new organization. (Which makes me surprised that the results weren't 100%, rather than 83%).

Like Rich, I write this as someone who is opposed to Obamacare: you're not helping. Your information is false and simplistic, your conclusions are wrongheaded and childish, and in general you have no idea what you're talking about. Other than those points, you're doing fine.
From that same poll:

5 percent said, "I’m re-energized," while 13 percent said they were unsure or had no opinion.

So it seems you are wrong that only doctors opposed against the ACA voted in this poll. A better question you should be asking is why are doctors so opposed to the ACA, have you researched that at all?

Don't like that one, here's another one:

http://www.mgma.com/WorkArea/mgma_downloadasset.aspx?id=1375747

Overall, how favorable or unfavorable do you think the impact of the ACA insurance exchanges will be on your practice?

15% Very unfavorable

40.5% Unfavorable

28.4% Neutral

13.9% Favorable

2.2% Very favorable

Only 16.1% say they think ACA will be favorable for their practice, 55.5% are against it and 28.4% Neutral (but if the neutral trend like the other two you are looking at a 78/22 split which is not far off from the previous poll you tried to discredit).

Go ahead, tell me this poll is a sham too, the MGMA was founded in 1926, good luck.

From the same poll:

Practices evaluating participation with an ACA exchange product(s): Barriers

85% cite Low reimbursement rates would pose a financial risk for our practice as a Major barrier

83% cite Financial liability during a 90-day grace period for the ACA exchange enrollees as a Major barrier

82.5% cite Concerns about the financial burden of patient collections (ex. from high deductibles) as a Major barrier

There's that 82-83% mark again, must be either a coincidence or a Tea-Party-Conspiracy (TPC) manufacturing polls to prove their point! :tinfoilhat: Watch out for those black helicopters!

 
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