The Tea Party is back in business! (1 Viewer)

[timschochet]

Tea Party types might be willing to compromise, but not on the terms Washington has operated under for the last 50+ years. The game needs to be changed. Personally I align more with this movement than either of the two current parties and I'm happy to own this. Do I root for some guy making 30k to lose a paycheck? No, not exactly. But we aren't and shouldn't be willing to compromise on the terms that Washington has operated under for the last 50+ years. Lose the budget, now. Not some 10 year plan that only cuts a small fraction, meaningful changes. There's no easy way for that to happen, but the deeper we dig the harder it gets. And ACA doesn't help either. Until the budget is in control, we shouldn't implement gigantic new programs that no one even seems to understand. Get our current situation in check first.

We should start with the largest piece of the budget right?

Or do you only support cutting the parts you don't like?

Absolutely - Defense spending, Medicare, and SS. And a whole lot of departments the federal government has no business involving itself in.

But that's not what they're doing. If the Tea Party threatened to shut down the government unless there was a complete overhaul of spending, I wouldn't agree with that at all, but I might respect them more.But in fact, they've shut it down over ONE issue: Obamacare. They demand that President Obama surrender his legacy achievement. That's irrational; it's never going to happen. And it doesn't address any of the issues you're raising.

Obamacare is an issue here. Not entirely central, but very relevant. It's ridiculous to implement gigantic federal programs when we can't sustain the current ones.

I don't necessarily disagree. But it's also ridiculous to shut down the federal government as a means to destroy Obamacare.

 

[Sand]

Look again. The undoing of the Clinton era in the 2000s was led by a Republican House.


And if you want to focus on party, here is the sum total of Presidents since WW2 that have seen an increase in debt on their watch:

Ford (very small)

Reagan

Bush 1

Bush 2

Obama

Four our of five are Republicans.

Congress controls the purse strings - that is a basic tenet of our Constitutional setup.

And looking at 1994-2008 or so when there was a Republican led house that was a flatline. Zero change. Not ideal, and certainly could have been a lot better, but there is no positive slope there.

 

[Lutherman2112]

The real problem to me is the precedent. When one side does something like this the other ups the ante later. Anyone thinking the dems would not do this to a GOP president in the future is mistaken. IT's just an escalation of the lengths the parties will go to to prove they are different from and better than the other party. If one house of congress disagrees with a law in the future this could be the template to fight it.

At some point governing has to take precedence over campaigning and establishing positions to solidify your base, if not this country cannot survive. No country lasts forever, if we do not find a way to make compromise a strength instead of a weakness we are on a path to failure.

http://nolabels.org

Thanks for sharing the link earlier

 

[igbomb]

I woke up this morning and my electricity was out, my vehicle wouldn't start, my office was closed, the traffic lights were all off.... oh wait. none of that happened.

Good to hear that you're fine.

But my sister has been told that she needs to continue to report to work but won't receive any paychecks until this mess is over. And then, just to add some more pain, starting in November the sequester is causing her one furlough day every two weeks, dropping her paycheck by 10%. She's cash strapped as is, so she's all kinds of stressed out. So go to hell.

 

[timschochet]

The real problem to me is the precedent. When one side does something like this the other ups the ante later. Anyone thinking the dems would not do this to a GOP president in the future is mistaken. IT's just an escalation of the lengths the parties will go to to prove they are different from and better than the other party. If one house of congress disagrees with a law in the future this could be the template to fight it.

At some point governing has to take precedence over campaigning and establishing positions to solidify your base, if not this country cannot survive. No country lasts forever, if we do not find a way to make compromise a strength instead of a weakness we are on a path to failure.

Both sides are acting like little kids. Repubs and Dems both suck balls now. It's all about the slapfight and not about bettering the nation and fixing the problems. Whole lotta stomping feet, pointing fingers, and yelling "BUT HE STARTED IT". Jackholes, the lot of em.

No no NO!!!

People need to stop spewing this "both sides" crap. In this instance, the fault is SOLELY the Tea Party, and the GOP leadership which has caved to them. That's it. Not Obama, not the Democrats. This lies completely at the feet of the Republican party.

 

[The Commish]

What came first? The chicken or the egg? We are a country divided roughly right down the middle on many issues. Look at our election results. Why are we surprised that stalemate is the name of the game? It is who we are as a country. Did politicians do it to us, or did we do it to ourselves?

The real question is how to come up with a larger middle ground in which both parties can see themselves? I see moderation- often derided in politicians as chicken ####- as the only path.

How do we get there?

I personally don't believe our election results are valid evidence that we are divided down the middle. When people are convinced by the politicians that you either vote dem or repub and anything else is a wasted vote, you will find most voting either dem or repub but not liking it. At this point, the only way we are going to get middle ground reached is the introduction of a viable third party. However, even that's a monumental task given the current damage the two party system has exposed us to from the beginning. The simple minded are convinced the choices are either dem or repub. That's it.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Why do government workers affected by the shutdown have orders to do absolutely nothing related to their job? No email, no calls, no project work, nothing. Its being treated like a strike. Are government workers all union? What's wrong with government workers continuing to work on their projects for free? All sorts of people in the private sector put in extra time for free to finish their responsibilities.

Is this for real or are you that ####### stupid?

 

[The Commish]

The real problem to me is the precedent. When one side does something like this the other ups the ante later. Anyone thinking the dems would not do this to a GOP president in the future is mistaken. IT's just an escalation of the lengths the parties will go to to prove they are different from and better than the other party. If one house of congress disagrees with a law in the future this could be the template to fight it.

At some point governing has to take precedence over campaigning and establishing positions to solidify your base, if not this country cannot survive. No country lasts forever, if we do not find a way to make compromise a strength instead of a weakness we are on a path to failure.

Both sides are acting like little kids. Repubs and Dems both suck balls now. It's all about the slapfight and not about bettering the nation and fixing the problems. Whole lotta stomping feet, pointing fingers, and yelling "BUT HE STARTED IT". Jackholes, the lot of em.

No no NO!!!

People need to stop spewing this "both sides" crap. In this instance, the fault is SOLELY the Tea Party, and the GOP leadership which has caved to them. That's it. Not Obama, not the Democrats. This lies completely at the feet of the Republican party.

So you don't lay any responsibility on the Dems for how they got their bill pushed to this point?

 

[[icon]]

The real problem to me is the precedent. When one side does something like this the other ups the ante later. Anyone thinking the dems would not do this to a GOP president in the future is mistaken. IT's just an escalation of the lengths the parties will go to to prove they are different from and better than the other party. If one house of congress disagrees with a law in the future this could be the template to fight it.

At some point governing has to take precedence over campaigning and establishing positions to solidify your base, if not this country cannot survive. No country lasts forever, if we do not find a way to make compromise a strength instead of a weakness we are on a path to failure.

Both sides are acting like little kids. Repubs and Dems both suck balls now. It's all about the slapfight and not about bettering the nation and fixing the problems. Whole lotta stomping feet, pointing fingers, and yelling "BUT HE STARTED IT". Jackholes, the lot of em.

No no NO!!!

People need to stop spewing this "both sides" crap. In this instance, the fault is SOLELY the Tea Party, and the GOP leadership which has caved to them. That's it. Not Obama, not the Democrats. This lies completely at the feet of the Republican party.

oh timmay......

 

[igbomb]

Look again. The undoing of the Clinton era in the 2000s was led by a Republican House.


And if you want to focus on party, here is the sum total of Presidents since WW2 that have seen an increase in debt on their watch:

Ford (very small)

Reagan

Bush 1

Bush 2

Obama

Four our of five are Republicans.

Congress controls the purse strings - that is a basic tenet of our Constitutional setup.

And looking at 1994-2008 or so when there was a Republican led house that was a flatline. Zero change. Not ideal, and certainly could have been a lot better, but there is no positive slope there.

You and I both know there was a fundamental difference in philosophy in both Congress and the Presidency between the 90s and the 00s. The 90s, as painful as it was, was marked by a drive to balance the budget. The 00s was all about the tax cut.

Supply side economics, championed by Reagan and reinvigorated by Bush's tax cuts, has smoked this country financially.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

I woke up this morning and my electricity was out, my vehicle wouldn't start, my office was closed, the traffic lights were all off.... oh wait. none of that happened.

Ok, great.

Remember when you were unemployed and everyone came into the forum to wish you well? I'd like to take my "good luck" back now.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

The real problem to me is the precedent. When one side does something like this the other ups the ante later. Anyone thinking the dems would not do this to a GOP president in the future is mistaken. IT's just an escalation of the lengths the parties will go to to prove they are different from and better than the other party. If one house of congress disagrees with a law in the future this could be the template to fight it.

At some point governing has to take precedence over campaigning and establishing positions to solidify your base, if not this country cannot survive. No country lasts forever, if we do not find a way to make compromise a strength instead of a weakness we are on a path to failure.

Both sides are acting like little kids. Repubs and Dems both suck balls now. It's all about the slapfight and not about bettering the nation and fixing the problems. Whole lotta stomping feet, pointing fingers, and yelling "BUT HE STARTED IT". Jackholes, the lot of em.

No no NO!!!

People need to stop spewing this "both sides" crap. In this instance, the fault is SOLELY the Tea Party, and the GOP leadership which has caved to them. That's it. Not Obama, not the Democrats. This lies completely at the feet of the Republican party.

So you don't lay any responsibility on the Dems for how they got their bill pushed to this point?

Which bill?

 

[BigSteelThrill]

The real problem to me is the precedent. When one side does something like this the other ups the ante later. Anyone thinking the dems would not do this to a GOP president in the future is mistaken. IT's just an escalation of the lengths the parties will go to to prove they are different from and better than the other party. If one house of congress disagrees with a law in the future this could be the template to fight it.

At some point governing has to take precedence over campaigning and establishing positions to solidify your base, if not this country cannot survive. No country lasts forever, if we do not find a way to make compromise a strength instead of a weakness we are on a path to failure.

Both sides are acting like little kids. Repubs and Dems both suck balls now. It's all about the slapfight and not about bettering the nation and fixing the problems. Whole lotta stomping feet, pointing fingers, and yelling "BUT HE STARTED IT". Jackholes, the lot of em.

No no NO!!!

People need to stop spewing this "both sides" crap. In this instance, the fault is SOLELY the Tea Party, and the GOP leadership which has caved to them. That's it. Not Obama, not the Democrats. This lies completely at the feet of the Republican party.

So you don't lay any responsibility on the Dems for how they got their bill pushed to this point?

Which bill?

yes, what bill?

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

The real problem to me is the precedent. When one side does something like this the other ups the ante later. Anyone thinking the dems would not do this to a GOP president in the future is mistaken. IT's just an escalation of the lengths the parties will go to to prove they are different from and better than the other party. If one house of congress disagrees with a law in the future this could be the template to fight it.

At some point governing has to take precedence over campaigning and establishing positions to solidify your base, if not this country cannot survive. No country lasts forever, if we do not find a way to make compromise a strength instead of a weakness we are on a path to failure.

Both sides are acting like little kids. Repubs and Dems both suck balls now. It's all about the slapfight and not about bettering the nation and fixing the problems. Whole lotta stomping feet, pointing fingers, and yelling "BUT HE STARTED IT". Jackholes, the lot of em.

No no NO!!!

People need to stop spewing this "both sides" crap. In this instance, the fault is SOLELY the Tea Party, and the GOP leadership which has caved to them. That's it. Not Obama, not the Democrats. This lies completely at the feet of the Republican party.

You're insufferable

 

[timschochet]

The real problem to me is the precedent. When one side does something like this the other ups the ante later. Anyone thinking the dems would not do this to a GOP president in the future is mistaken. IT's just an escalation of the lengths the parties will go to to prove they are different from and better than the other party. If one house of congress disagrees with a law in the future this could be the template to fight it.

At some point governing has to take precedence over campaigning and establishing positions to solidify your base, if not this country cannot survive. No country lasts forever, if we do not find a way to make compromise a strength instead of a weakness we are on a path to failure.

Both sides are acting like little kids. Repubs and Dems both suck balls now. It's all about the slapfight and not about bettering the nation and fixing the problems. Whole lotta stomping feet, pointing fingers, and yelling "BUT HE STARTED IT". Jackholes, the lot of em.

No no NO!!!

People need to stop spewing this "both sides" crap. In this instance, the fault is SOLELY the Tea Party, and the GOP leadership which has caved to them. That's it. Not Obama, not the Democrats. This lies completely at the feet of the Republican party.

So you don't lay any responsibility on the Dems for how they got their bill pushed to this point?

None.

What the Democrats have done is part of the give and take of politics. Shutting down the government, threatening to not raise the debt ceiling, is not. This is all on the Tea Party.

 

[Uwe Blab]

The real problem to me is the precedent. When one side does something like this the other ups the ante later. Anyone thinking the dems would not do this to a GOP president in the future is mistaken. IT's just an escalation of the lengths the parties will go to to prove they are different from and better than the other party. If one house of congress disagrees with a law in the future this could be the template to fight it.

At some point governing has to take precedence over campaigning and establishing positions to solidify your base, if not this country cannot survive. No country lasts forever, if we do not find a way to make compromise a strength instead of a weakness we are on a path to failure.

Both sides are acting like little kids. Repubs and Dems both suck balls now. It's all about the slapfight and not about bettering the nation and fixing the problems. Whole lotta stomping feet, pointing fingers, and yelling "BUT HE STARTED IT". Jackholes, the lot of em.

No no NO!!!People need to stop spewing this "both sides" crap. In this instance, the fault is SOLELY the Tea Party, and the GOP leadership which has caved to them. That's it. Not Obama, not the Democrats. This lies completely at the feet of the Republican party.

You're insufferable

Maybe, but in this case, he's 100 percent correct.

 

[shader]

http://www.businessinsider.com/government-shutdown-caused-the-monica-lewinsky-scandal-2013-9

Be careful. With all this free time on their hands, rich gov't guys just don't know what to do with themselves.

 

[mr roboto]

The real problem to me is the precedent. When one side does something like this the other ups the ante later. Anyone thinking the dems would not do this to a GOP president in the future is mistaken. IT's just an escalation of the lengths the parties will go to to prove they are different from and better than the other party. If one house of congress disagrees with a law in the future this could be the template to fight it.

At some point governing has to take precedence over campaigning and establishing positions to solidify your base, if not this country cannot survive. No country lasts forever, if we do not find a way to make compromise a strength instead of a weakness we are on a path to failure.

Both sides are acting like little kids. Repubs and Dems both suck balls now. It's all about the slapfight and not about bettering the nation and fixing the problems. Whole lotta stomping feet, pointing fingers, and yelling "BUT HE STARTED IT". Jackholes, the lot of em.

No no NO!!!People need to stop spewing this "both sides" crap. In this instance, the fault is SOLELY the Tea Party, and the GOP leadership which has caved to them. That's it. Not Obama, not the Democrats. This lies completely at the feet of the Republican party.

oh timmay......

Tim needs a good guy and a bad guy. Causal ambiguity fries his circuits.

 

[snogger]

What came first? The chicken or the egg? We are a country divided roughly right down the middle on many issues. Look at our election results. Why are we surprised that stalemate is the name of the game? It is who we are as a country. Did politicians do it to us, or did we do it to ourselves?

The real question is how to come up with a larger middle ground in which both parties can see themselves? I see moderation- often derided in politicians as chicken ####- as the only path.

How do we get there?

I personally don't believe our election results are valid evidence that we are divided down the middle. When people are convinced by the politicians that you either vote dem or repub and anything else is a wasted vote, you will find most voting either dem or repub but not liking it. At this point, the only way we are going to get middle ground reached is the introduction of a viable third party. However, even that's a monumental task given the current damage the two party system has exposed us to from the beginning. The simple minded are convinced the choices are either dem or repub. That's it.

I'd LOVE if the members who joined http://nolabels.org broke away from their parties and made it a legit 3rd party..

For the first time in my life I'd actually donate money to a political group if that happened..

 

[dgreen]

This is dispicable. My brother is in the Marines and his family needs to pay the bills. This isn't A ####### joke GOP.

If your brother banks with Navy Federal then he will continue to receive his pay. Navy Federal has commited to continue making direct deposits during the shutdown.

For essential employees, I assume?

 

[glock]

The real problem to me is the precedent. When one side does something like this the other ups the ante later. Anyone thinking the dems would not do this to a GOP president in the future is mistaken. IT's just an escalation of the lengths the parties will go to to prove they are different from and better than the other party. If one house of congress disagrees with a law in the future this could be the template to fight it.

At some point governing has to take precedence over campaigning and establishing positions to solidify your base, if not this country cannot survive. No country lasts forever, if we do not find a way to make compromise a strength instead of a weakness we are on a path to failure.

http://nolabels.org

Liking that No Labels.

 

[The Commish]

The real problem to me is the precedent. When one side does something like this the other ups the ante later. Anyone thinking the dems would not do this to a GOP president in the future is mistaken. IT's just an escalation of the lengths the parties will go to to prove they are different from and better than the other party. If one house of congress disagrees with a law in the future this could be the template to fight it.

At some point governing has to take precedence over campaigning and establishing positions to solidify your base, if not this country cannot survive. No country lasts forever, if we do not find a way to make compromise a strength instead of a weakness we are on a path to failure.

Both sides are acting like little kids. Repubs and Dems both suck balls now. It's all about the slapfight and not about bettering the nation and fixing the problems. Whole lotta stomping feet, pointing fingers, and yelling "BUT HE STARTED IT". Jackholes, the lot of em.

No no NO!!!

People need to stop spewing this "both sides" crap. In this instance, the fault is SOLELY the Tea Party, and the GOP leadership which has caved to them. That's it. Not Obama, not the Democrats. This lies completely at the feet of the Republican party.

So you don't lay any responsibility on the Dems for how they got their bill pushed to this point?

None.

What the Democrats have done is part of the give and take of politics. Shutting down the government, threatening to not raise the debt ceiling, is not. This is all on the Tea Party.

To be clear....you believe ramming their version of healthcare through without productive compromise with the GOP is "give and take"?

 

[timschochet]

The real problem to me is the precedent. When one side does something like this the other ups the ante later. Anyone thinking the dems would not do this to a GOP president in the future is mistaken. IT's just an escalation of the lengths the parties will go to to prove they are different from and better than the other party. If one house of congress disagrees with a law in the future this could be the template to fight it.

At some point governing has to take precedence over campaigning and establishing positions to solidify your base, if not this country cannot survive. No country lasts forever, if we do not find a way to make compromise a strength instead of a weakness we are on a path to failure.

Both sides are acting like little kids. Repubs and Dems both suck balls now. It's all about the slapfight and not about bettering the nation and fixing the problems. Whole lotta stomping feet, pointing fingers, and yelling "BUT HE STARTED IT". Jackholes, the lot of em.

No no NO!!!People need to stop spewing this "both sides" crap. In this instance, the fault is SOLELY the Tea Party, and the GOP leadership which has caved to them. That's it. Not Obama, not the Democrats. This lies completely at the feet of the Republican party.

oh timmay......

Tim needs a good guy and a bad guy. Causal ambiguity fries his circuits.

I don't regard the Tea Party as "bad guys". And I CERTAINLY don't regard the Dems as "good guys". In THIS current crisis, there is one party at fault, one party acting like spoiled children, and when people like ICON make the claim which we always hear that "both sides are doing it", it's just false.

 

[the moops]

What we're seeing is a reshaping of the GOP, but they couldn't continue to be liberal lite and survive anyways.

liberal lite

 

[Redwes25]

Why do government workers affected by the shutdown have orders to do absolutely nothing related to their job? No email, no calls, no project work, nothing. Its being treated like a strike. Are government workers all union? What's wrong with government workers continuing to work on their projects for free? All sorts of people in the private sector put in extra time for free to finish their responsibilities.

Putting in extra time and still getting paid is one thing. Putting in extra time when you are not getting paid at all is another.

Oh please. Government workers will get paid in full, just perhaps in arrears. This is a free paid vacation that doesn't count against vacation time.

But if you look at the debt as a % of GDP, which is what potential investors would be most worried about as well, it shows that post-WW2 we were improving significantly until the early 80s. And then the crap really hit the fan in about 2007. But this also shows that fixing this thing is far more possible than it appears to be in absolute terms. Just get the trend heading down again and let's grow out of it.

As % of GDP

Serious question : what is the GOP hoping to gain?

Great graph! Very informative.

When you look at the graph you'll note that every single uptrend here has been with a Democratic House. Every single one. So you ask what is to gain here? How about a budget that is in the realm of sanity? The ACA is a massive tax increase (lowering GDP) and a huge expenditure over and above those tax increases (further increasing the debt). This is a long term debt bomb and I can certainly see why there is resistance to it by the only party that actually cares about spending restraint.

The other side of the house will simply spend us into the ground, and has shown that they will do so when they can. And have done so.

So you want them to work when they don't know if they will get paid. Doesn't seem fair to me.

 

[The Commish]

What came first? The chicken or the egg? We are a country divided roughly right down the middle on many issues. Look at our election results. Why are we surprised that stalemate is the name of the game? It is who we are as a country. Did politicians do it to us, or did we do it to ourselves?

The real question is how to come up with a larger middle ground in which both parties can see themselves? I see moderation- often derided in politicians as chicken ####- as the only path.

How do we get there?

I personally don't believe our election results are valid evidence that we are divided down the middle. When people are convinced by the politicians that you either vote dem or repub and anything else is a wasted vote, you will find most voting either dem or repub but not liking it. At this point, the only way we are going to get middle ground reached is the introduction of a viable third party. However, even that's a monumental task given the current damage the two party system has exposed us to from the beginning. The simple minded are convinced the choices are either dem or repub. That's it.

I'd LOVE if the members who joined http://nolabels.org broke away from their parties and made it a legit 3rd party..

For the first time in my life I'd actually donate money to a political group if that happened..

That's what it will take. That and the balls to do this because it's the right thing and not because of the paycheck. When being a representative became a job to keep, things went downhill quickly. The motivations in making decisions switch from "what's best for the country" to "what's going to keep my job"....right on down the line. Well, here we are. Now what?

 

[timschochet]

The real problem to me is the precedent. When one side does something like this the other ups the ante later. Anyone thinking the dems would not do this to a GOP president in the future is mistaken. IT's just an escalation of the lengths the parties will go to to prove they are different from and better than the other party. If one house of congress disagrees with a law in the future this could be the template to fight it.

At some point governing has to take precedence over campaigning and establishing positions to solidify your base, if not this country cannot survive. No country lasts forever, if we do not find a way to make compromise a strength instead of a weakness we are on a path to failure.

Both sides are acting like little kids. Repubs and Dems both suck balls now. It's all about the slapfight and not about bettering the nation and fixing the problems. Whole lotta stomping feet, pointing fingers, and yelling "BUT HE STARTED IT". Jackholes, the lot of em.

No no NO!!!

People need to stop spewing this "both sides" crap. In this instance, the fault is SOLELY the Tea Party, and the GOP leadership which has caved to them. That's it. Not Obama, not the Democrats. This lies completely at the feet of the Republican party.

So you don't lay any responsibility on the Dems for how they got their bill pushed to this point?

None.

What the Democrats have done is part of the give and take of politics. Shutting down the government, threatening to not raise the debt ceiling, is not. This is all on the Tea Party.

To be clear....you believe ramming their version of healthcare through without productive compromise with the GOP is "give and take"?

Any bill that gets passed is part of the give and take of politics, no matter how party line it is.

 

[Slapdash]

Now Obama is hammering the gold price to punish the Tea Partiers for cutting off the governments free money printing! This is starting to get interesting. Is this what financial war looks like?

 

[Politician Spock]

Only the hackiest of partisan hacks would point the finger anywhere but at the scumbag House Republicans for today's shenanigans.

They're not scumbags. Calling them scumbags, and joking about assassinating a US Senator, is rhetoric that is in terrible taste IMO.I HATE what the House Republicans are doing here. But they genuinely believe in it. They're not bad people; just horribly misguided (IMO).

I don't want anyone assassinated so please don't link my comment to dparker. But I stand by the scumbag comment. They don't think they are doing the right thing. They are just trying to score political points. At best they are thinking that the ends justify the means. And I find that morally bankrupt.

The ends justify the means is morally bankrupt? You used that very same argument a hundred times in the NSA thread.

You must have me confused with someone else. I have yet to post in the NSA thread. Not once.

You're correct. I confused your post with where you quoted timschochet. Sorry, GB.

However, I never once argued in the NSA thread that the ends justifies the means. I don't believe that.

You made it clear that the means are the only way to fight terrorism. If fighting terrorism is a must, then the means are justified.

That's not exactly what I wrote. It's a subtle distinction, but the distinction IS there.

In any case, let's not discuss it further in this thread.

I think what you fail to understand is that 99.999% of the world does not view the world with the subtleties you chose to filter your world view through.This isn't just specific to the NSA discussion, but every discussion you engage in here, including this thread topic.

 

[The Commish]

The real problem to me is the precedent. When one side does something like this the other ups the ante later. Anyone thinking the dems would not do this to a GOP president in the future is mistaken. IT's just an escalation of the lengths the parties will go to to prove they are different from and better than the other party. If one house of congress disagrees with a law in the future this could be the template to fight it.

At some point governing has to take precedence over campaigning and establishing positions to solidify your base, if not this country cannot survive. No country lasts forever, if we do not find a way to make compromise a strength instead of a weakness we are on a path to failure.

Both sides are acting like little kids. Repubs and Dems both suck balls now. It's all about the slapfight and not about bettering the nation and fixing the problems. Whole lotta stomping feet, pointing fingers, and yelling "BUT HE STARTED IT". Jackholes, the lot of em.

No no NO!!!

People need to stop spewing this "both sides" crap. In this instance, the fault is SOLELY the Tea Party, and the GOP leadership which has caved to them. That's it. Not Obama, not the Democrats. This lies completely at the feet of the Republican party.

So you don't lay any responsibility on the Dems for how they got their bill pushed to this point?

None.

What the Democrats have done is part of the give and take of politics. Shutting down the government, threatening to not raise the debt ceiling, is not. This is all on the Tea Party.

To be clear....you believe ramming their version of healthcare through without productive compromise with the GOP is "give and take"?

Any bill that gets passed is part of the give and take of politics, no matter how party line it is.

ok

And we wonder how we got into this mess.....people use logic like this and are allowed to vote. You know, TG and a few others attacked me for blaming Washington in general. In hindsight, they're right. I shouldn't be blaming Washington. I'm now blaming the people voting for these idiots. That's where my political contempt is focused now. Well done dopes.

 

[Sand]

Look again. The undoing of the Clinton era in the 2000s was led by a Republican House.


And if you want to focus on party, here is the sum total of Presidents since WW2 that have seen an increase in debt on their watch:

Ford (very small)

Reagan

Bush 1

Bush 2

Obama

Four our of five are Republicans.

Congress controls the purse strings - that is a basic tenet of our Constitutional setup.

And looking at 1994-2008 or so when there was a Republican led house that was a flatline. Zero change. Not ideal, and certainly could have been a lot better, but there is no positive slope there.

You and I both know there was a fundamental difference in philosophy in both Congress and the Presidency between the 90s and the 00s. The 90s, as painful as it was, was marked by a drive to balance the budget. The 00s was all about the tax cut.

Supply side economics, championed by Reagan and reinvigorated by Bush's tax cuts, has smoked this country financially.

So if you wanted this country on solid financial footing, which side would you choose? We only have two realistic choices.

And I'm not sure why you blame supply side economics for (I gather) the latest recession. That one was pretty cut and dry. We had both sides of government, but to be fair mostly Democrats, push government intrusion into the housing market and pump up prices to ridiculous levels. Fannie and Freddie were Democrat inventions and Democrat darlings. That is what smoked us. In the guise of "helping people" they managed to cripple a large part of the economy and depress the rest as a result. Really sad to think how many people they hurt through the philosophy of infinite subsidy - well, until that house of cards came crashing down.

 

[glock]

What came first? The chicken or the egg? We are a country divided roughly right down the middle on many issues. Look at our election results. Why are we surprised that stalemate is the name of the game? It is who we are as a country. Did politicians do it to us, or did we do it to ourselves?

The real question is how to come up with a larger middle ground in which both parties can see themselves? I see moderation- often derided in politicians as chicken ####- as the only path.

How do we get there?

I personally don't believe our election results are valid evidence that we are divided down the middle. When people are convinced by the politicians that you either vote dem or repub and anything else is a wasted vote, you will find most voting either dem or repub but not liking it. At this point, the only way we are going to get middle ground reached is the introduction of a viable third party. However, even that's a monumental task given the current damage the two party system has exposed us to from the beginning. The simple minded are convinced the choices are either dem or repub. That's it.

I'd LOVE if the members who joined http://nolabels.org broke away from their parties and made it a legit 3rd party..

For the first time in my life I'd actually donate money to a political group if that happened..

In.

 

[timschochet]

Only the hackiest of partisan hacks would point the finger anywhere but at the scumbag House Republicans for today's shenanigans.

They're not scumbags. Calling them scumbags, and joking about assassinating a US Senator, is rhetoric that is in terrible taste IMO.I HATE what the House Republicans are doing here. But they genuinely believe in it. They're not bad people; just horribly misguided (IMO).

I don't want anyone assassinated so please don't link my comment to dparker. But I stand by the scumbag comment. They don't think they are doing the right thing. They are just trying to score political points. At best they are thinking that the ends justify the means. And I find that morally bankrupt.

The ends justify the means is morally bankrupt? You used that very same argument a hundred times in the NSA thread.

You must have me confused with someone else. I have yet to post in the NSA thread. Not once.

You're correct. I confused your post with where you quoted timschochet. Sorry, GB.

However, I never once argued in the NSA thread that the ends justifies the means. I don't believe that.

You made it clear that the means are the only way to fight terrorism. If fighting terrorism is a must, then the means are justified.

That's not exactly what I wrote. It's a subtle distinction, but the distinction IS there.

In any case, let's not discuss it further in this thread.

I think what you fail to understand is that 99.999% of the world does not view the world with the subtleties you chose to filter your world view through.This isn't just specific to the NSA discussion, but every discussion you engage in here, including this thread topic.

Strongly disagree with you, but so what?

 

[timschochet]

The real problem to me is the precedent. When one side does something like this the other ups the ante later. Anyone thinking the dems would not do this to a GOP president in the future is mistaken. IT's just an escalation of the lengths the parties will go to to prove they are different from and better than the other party. If one house of congress disagrees with a law in the future this could be the template to fight it.

At some point governing has to take precedence over campaigning and establishing positions to solidify your base, if not this country cannot survive. No country lasts forever, if we do not find a way to make compromise a strength instead of a weakness we are on a path to failure.

Both sides are acting like little kids. Repubs and Dems both suck balls now. It's all about the slapfight and not about bettering the nation and fixing the problems. Whole lotta stomping feet, pointing fingers, and yelling "BUT HE STARTED IT". Jackholes, the lot of em.

No no NO!!!

People need to stop spewing this "both sides" crap. In this instance, the fault is SOLELY the Tea Party, and the GOP leadership which has caved to them. That's it. Not Obama, not the Democrats. This lies completely at the feet of the Republican party.

So you don't lay any responsibility on the Dems for how they got their bill pushed to this point?

None.

What the Democrats have done is part of the give and take of politics. Shutting down the government, threatening to not raise the debt ceiling, is not. This is all on the Tea Party.

To be clear....you believe ramming their version of healthcare through without productive compromise with the GOP is "give and take"?

Any bill that gets passed is part of the give and take of politics, no matter how party line it is.

ok

And we wonder how we got into this mess.....people use logic like this and are allowed to vote. You know, TG and a few others attacked me for blaming Washington in general. In hindsight, they're right. I shouldn't be blaming Washington. I'm now blaming the people voting for these idiots. That's where my political contempt is focused now. Well done dopes.

What "logic" did I use that you disagree with? Are you really arguing that Obamacare is somehow illegitimate because it was passed only by a partisan vote? That this fact justifies what the GOP is currently doing (shutting down the government in order to get rid of Obamacare)? That both sides are equally guilty? They're not.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

It would be nice if folks would not judge the person speaking solely by the party affiliation. Cruz and his theatrics were a bit much but he got some attention.

I would like to know if Obamacare would pass Nationally if folks knew that the vast majority of folks already paying on their insurance, those folks are now having their premiums hiked.

I don't know a lot of people who are excited about Obamacare, I just don't. And I am having a hard time understanding where this is going to help people. I keep hearing about people being denied, the insurance will not be free. I was speaking to a woman who was a diabetic last night, she only makes about $10/hr, she asked how could she afford the insurance even though she now qualifies...I don't know were the words I answered with, wish I had something better but I don't know how these people can pay the premiums either.

I think Americans have been sold Obamacare as a plan that would help the less privileged get insurance for poor people...OK but $100-$200 a month from someone who has never paid insurance, makes minimum wage, good luck collecting premiums in the 2nd and 3rd month, those folks live paycheck to paycheck and sometimes not even then. It's unreal the information people are passing along or coming into the marketplace with.

 

[Premier]

I woke up this morning and my electricity was out, my vehicle wouldn't start, my office was closed, the traffic lights were all off.... oh wait. none of that happened.

Ok, great. Remember when you were unemployed and everyone came into the forum to wish you well? I'd like to take my "good luck" back now.

concur with this.

 

[Politician Spock]

They're not scumbags. Calling them scumbags, and joking about assassinating a US Senator, is rhetoric that is in terrible taste IMO.

I HATE what the House Republicans are doing here. But they genuinely believe in it. They're not bad people; just horribly misguided (IMO).

I don't want anyone assassinated so please don't link my comment to dparker. But I stand by the scumbag comment. They don't think they are doing the right thing. They are just trying to score political points. At best they are thinking that the ends justify the means. And I find that morally bankrupt.

The ends justify the means is morally bankrupt? You used that very same argument a hundred times in the NSA thread.

You must have me confused with someone else. I have yet to post in the NSA thread. Not once.

You're correct. I confused your post with where you quoted timschochet. Sorry, GB.

However, I never once argued in the NSA thread that the ends justifies the means. I don't believe that.

You made it clear that the means are the only way to fight terrorism. If fighting terrorism is a must, then the means are justified.

That's not exactly what I wrote. It's a subtle distinction, but the distinction IS there.In any case, let's not discuss it further in this thread.

I think what you fail to understand is that 99.999% of the world does not view the world with the subtleties you chose to filter your world view through.This isn't just specific to the NSA discussion, but every discussion you engage in here, including this thread topic.

Strongly disagree with you, but so what?

But so what?... you overwhelmingly flood threads with numerous posts because you refuse to let those who view the world with different subtleties have the same number of posts on the matter as you do.

 

[Sammy3469]

Look again. The undoing of the Clinton era in the 2000s was led by a Republican House.


And if you want to focus on party, here is the sum total of Presidents since WW2 that have seen an increase in debt on their watch:

Ford (very small)

Reagan

Bush 1

Bush 2

Obama

Four our of five are Republicans.

Congress controls the purse strings - that is a basic tenet of our Constitutional setup.

And looking at 1994-2008 or so when there was a Republican led house that was a flatline. Zero change. Not ideal, and certainly could have been a lot better, but there is no positive slope there.

You and I both know there was a fundamental difference in philosophy in both Congress and the Presidency between the 90s and the 00s. The 90s, as painful as it was, was marked by a drive to balance the budget. The 00s was all about the tax cut.

Supply side economics, championed by Reagan and reinvigorated by Bush's tax cuts, has smoked this country financially.

So if you wanted this country on solid financial footing, which side would you choose? We only have two realistic choices.

And I'm not sure why you blame supply side economics for (I gather) the latest recession. That one was pretty cut and dry. We had both sides of government, but to be fair mostly Democrats, push government intrusion into the housing market and pump up prices to ridiculous levels. Fannie and Freddie were Democrat inventions and Democrat darlings. That is what smoked us. In the guise of "helping people" they managed to cripple a large part of the economy and depress the rest as a result. Really sad to think how many people they hurt through the philosophy of infinite subsidy - well, until that house of cards came crashing down.

lol

 

[The Commish]

The real problem to me is the precedent. When one side does something like this the other ups the ante later. Anyone thinking the dems would not do this to a GOP president in the future is mistaken. IT's just an escalation of the lengths the parties will go to to prove they are different from and better than the other party. If one house of congress disagrees with a law in the future this could be the template to fight it.

At some point governing has to take precedence over campaigning and establishing positions to solidify your base, if not this country cannot survive. No country lasts forever, if we do not find a way to make compromise a strength instead of a weakness we are on a path to failure.

Both sides are acting like little kids. Repubs and Dems both suck balls now. It's all about the slapfight and not about bettering the nation and fixing the problems. Whole lotta stomping feet, pointing fingers, and yelling "BUT HE STARTED IT". Jackholes, the lot of em.

No no NO!!!

People need to stop spewing this "both sides" crap. In this instance, the fault is SOLELY the Tea Party, and the GOP leadership which has caved to them. That's it. Not Obama, not the Democrats. This lies completely at the feet of the Republican party.

So you don't lay any responsibility on the Dems for how they got their bill pushed to this point?

None.

What the Democrats have done is part of the give and take of politics. Shutting down the government, threatening to not raise the debt ceiling, is not. This is all on the Tea Party.

To be clear....you believe ramming their version of healthcare through without productive compromise with the GOP is "give and take"?

Any bill that gets passed is part of the give and take of politics, no matter how party line it is.

ok

And we wonder how we got into this mess.....people use logic like this and are allowed to vote. You know, TG and a few others attacked me for blaming Washington in general. In hindsight, they're right. I shouldn't be blaming Washington. I'm now blaming the people voting for these idiots. That's where my political contempt is focused now. Well done dopes.

What "logic" did I use that you disagree with? Are you really arguing that Obamacare is somehow illegitimate because it was passed only by a partisan vote? That this fact justifies what the GOP is currently doing (shutting down the government in order to get rid of Obamacare)? That both sides are equally guilty? They're not.

No...I'm arguing that when you don't have to give or take it's not part of the "give and take" process.

 

[timschochet]

It will be very important to see if the public in general agrees with Icon and the Commish ("both sides are equally guilty') or agrees with me ("the GOP is to blame for this.") If the polls show that the public agrees that both sides are guilty, then we can expect the shut down to go on for a while. If the public blames the GOP, then I expect the GOP establishment to put an end to this crap pretty quickly.

 

[matuski]

The real problem to me is the precedent. When one side does something like this the other ups the ante later. Anyone thinking the dems would not do this to a GOP president in the future is mistaken. IT's just an escalation of the lengths the parties will go to to prove they are different from and better than the other party. If one house of congress disagrees with a law in the future this could be the template to fight it.

At some point governing has to take precedence over campaigning and establishing positions to solidify your base, if not this country cannot survive. No country lasts forever, if we do not find a way to make compromise a strength instead of a weakness we are on a path to failure.

Both sides are acting like little kids. Repubs and Dems both suck balls now. It's all about the slapfight and not about bettering the nation and fixing the problems. Whole lotta stomping feet, pointing fingers, and yelling "BUT HE STARTED IT". Jackholes, the lot of em.

No no NO!!!

People need to stop spewing this "both sides" crap. In this instance, the fault is SOLELY the Tea Party, and the GOP leadership which has caved to them. That's it. Not Obama, not the Democrats. This lies completely at the feet of the Republican party.

So you don't lay any responsibility on the Dems for how they got their bill pushed to this point?

It isn't a bill, it is a Law. The pushing is done with on the ACA.

It passed, has survived 40+ attempts to repeal, the Unites States Supreme Court upheld it, the country reinforced it by re-electing Obama... it needs no more compromising.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

I woke up this morning and my electricity was out, my vehicle wouldn't start, my office was closed, the traffic lights were all off.... oh wait. none of that happened.

Ok, great. Remember when you were unemployed and everyone came into the forum to wish you well? I'd like to take my "good luck" back now.

concur with this.

I'll take an aisle seat please

 

[spreagle]

Why do government workers affected by the shutdown have orders to do absolutely nothing related to their job? No email, no calls, no project work, nothing. Its being treated like a strike. Are government workers all union? What's wrong with government workers continuing to work on their projects for free? All sorts of people in the private sector put in extra time for free to finish their responsibilities.

Putting in extra time and still getting paid is one thing. Putting in extra time when you are not getting paid at all is another.

Oh please. Government workers will get paid in full, just perhaps in arrears. This is a free paid vacation that doesn't count against vacation time.

But if you look at the debt as a % of GDP, which is what potential investors would be most worried about as well, it shows that post-WW2 we were improving significantly until the early 80s. And then the crap really hit the fan in about 2007. But this also shows that fixing this thing is far more possible than it appears to be in absolute terms. Just get the trend heading down again and let's grow out of it.

As % of GDP

Serious question : what is the GOP hoping to gain?

Great graph! Very informative.

When you look at the graph you'll note that every single uptrend here has been with a Democratic House. Every single one. So you ask what is to gain here? How about a budget that is in the realm of sanity? The ACA is a massive tax increase (lowering GDP) and a huge expenditure over and above those tax increases (further increasing the debt). This is a long term debt bomb and I can certainly see why there is resistance to it by the only party that actually cares about spending restraint.

The other side of the house will simply spend us into the ground, and has shown that they will do so when they can. And have done so.

So you want them to work when they don't know if they will get paid. Doesn't seem fair to me.

I think I got my answer ... no room for entrepreneurial spirit in government.

 

[Jewell]

The ACA my be poorly drafted and will likely be poorly executed as many federal government programs are. The ACA was, however, passed with majorities in both houses of Congress and signed by the President. As a consequence, money ought to be allocated for it. Failure to do this sets a very bad precedent because when the roles are reversed and Republicans are ascendant (highly unlikely for the Presidency), what is to stop Democrats from deploying the same strategy and shutting down the government until some legislation they don't like is reversed? The result is paralysis, regular shutdowns, and large uncertainty for an economy that craves a degree of predictability to function.

I also think the public deserves to see ACA in effect rather than the Republicans being the arbiter of it's fate. If there is vast public dissatisfaction with the ACA in practice then future steps came be made to tweak the ACA or repeal it in it's entirety -- depending on the public's wishes after seeing the ACA in practice.

 

[Fennis]

Now Obama is hammering the gold price to punish the Tea Partiers for cutting off the governments free money printing! This is starting to get interesting. Is this what financial war looks like?

sounds like someone's physical 401k is doing poorly.

 

[Uwe Blab]

Why do government workers affected by the shutdown have orders to do absolutely nothing related to their job? No email, no calls, no project work, nothing. Its being treated like a strike. Are government workers all union? What's wrong with government workers continuing to work on their projects for free? All sorts of people in the private sector put in extra time for free to finish their responsibilities.

Putting in extra time and still getting paid is one thing. Putting in extra time when you are not getting paid at all is another.

Oh please. Government workers will get paid in full, just perhaps in arrears. This is a free paid vacation that doesn't count against vacation time.

But if you look at the debt as a % of GDP, which is what potential investors would be most worried about as well, it shows that post-WW2 we were improving significantly until the early 80s. And then the crap really hit the fan in about 2007. But this also shows that fixing this thing is far more possible than it appears to be in absolute terms. Just get the trend heading down again and let's grow out of it.

As % of GDP

Serious question : what is the GOP hoping to gain?

Great graph! Very informative.

When you look at the graph you'll note that every single uptrend here has been with a Democratic House. Every single one. So you ask what is to gain here? How about a budget that is in the realm of sanity? The ACA is a massive tax increase (lowering GDP) and a huge expenditure over and above those tax increases (further increasing the debt). This is a long term debt bomb and I can certainly see why there is resistance to it by the only party that actually cares about spending restraint.

The other side of the house will simply spend us into the ground, and has shown that they will do so when they can. And have done so.

So you want them to work when they don't know if they will get paid. Doesn't seem fair to me.

I think I got my answer ... no room for entrepreneurial spirit in government.

Did you miss the post about it being literally illegal, Professor?But gotta be fishing...no one is this dumb

 

[RCon]

Any bill that gets passed is part of the give and take of politics, no matter how party line it is.

That sounds an awful lot like "the end justifies the means".

 

[humpback]

It will be very important to see if the public in general agrees with Icon and the Commish ("both sides are equally guilty') or agrees with me ("the GOP is to blame for this.") If the polls show that the public agrees that both sides are guilty, then we can expect the shut down to go on for a while. If the public blames the GOP, then I expect the GOP establishment to put an end to this crap pretty quickly.

You do know that there is quite a bit of room between 100%-0% and 50%-50%?

ETA- it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to guess that the opinions are going to have a high correlation to party affiliation.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

The real problem to me is the precedent. When one side does something like this the other ups the ante later. Anyone thinking the dems would not do this to a GOP president in the future is mistaken. IT's just an escalation of the lengths the parties will go to to prove they are different from and better than the other party. If one house of congress disagrees with a law in the future this could be the template to fight it.

At some point governing has to take precedence over campaigning and establishing positions to solidify your base, if not this country cannot survive. No country lasts forever, if we do not find a way to make compromise a strength instead of a weakness we are on a path to failure.

Excellent post.

Agreed. Somewhere along the way the definition of political compromise became "either we get what we want or no one gets anything at all." Of course that's not what a compromise is but don't tell the folks in DC.

What exactly have democrats pursued recently that wasn't compromised from the get go?

 

[timschochet]

The real problem to me is the precedent. When one side does something like this the other ups the ante later. Anyone thinking the dems would not do this to a GOP president in the future is mistaken. IT's just an escalation of the lengths the parties will go to to prove they are different from and better than the other party. If one house of congress disagrees with a law in the future this could be the template to fight it.

At some point governing has to take precedence over campaigning and establishing positions to solidify your base, if not this country cannot survive. No country lasts forever, if we do not find a way to make compromise a strength instead of a weakness we are on a path to failure.

Both sides are acting like little kids. Repubs and Dems both suck balls now. It's all about the slapfight and not about bettering the nation and fixing the problems. Whole lotta stomping feet, pointing fingers, and yelling "BUT HE STARTED IT". Jackholes, the lot of em.

No no NO!!!

People need to stop spewing this "both sides" crap. In this instance, the fault is SOLELY the Tea Party, and the GOP leadership which has caved to them. That's it. Not Obama, not the Democrats. This lies completely at the feet of the Republican party.

So you don't lay any responsibility on the Dems for how they got their bill pushed to this point?

None.

What the Democrats have done is part of the give and take of politics. Shutting down the government, threatening to not raise the debt ceiling, is not. This is all on the Tea Party.

To be clear....you believe ramming their version of healthcare through without productive compromise with the GOP is "give and take"?

Any bill that gets passed is part of the give and take of politics, no matter how party line it is.

ok

And we wonder how we got into this mess.....people use logic like this and are allowed to vote. You know, TG and a few others attacked me for blaming Washington in general. In hindsight, they're right. I shouldn't be blaming Washington. I'm now blaming the people voting for these idiots. That's where my political contempt is focused now. Well done dopes.

What "logic" did I use that you disagree with? Are you really arguing that Obamacare is somehow illegitimate because it was passed only by a partisan vote? That this fact justifies what the GOP is currently doing (shutting down the government in order to get rid of Obamacare)? That both sides are equally guilty? They're not.

No...I'm arguing that when you don't have to give or take it's not part of the "give and take" process.

Then no offense, but your memory is a little short here. Obamacare was negotiated with the Republicans for months, and the Dems made concession after concession with Republican moderates in order to have some kind of bipartisan approval. By the time the bill was up for a vote, it barely resembled what was originally proposed. At that point, the GOP leadership, realizing the bill would pass anyhow, decided that it would serve them politically if not a single Republican voted for it. But that political decision had nothing to do with the give and take that occurred during the formation of the bill.