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The Tea Party is back in business! (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter timschochet
- Start date
DocHolliday
Footballguy
Obama has always operated more as a king than as pres. He gets to pay back big business and his unions. That is how it works. You think our government is not corrupt and fair? Do not be silly.
Premier
Footballguy
Wow
Might want to recheck your newspaper. Should be easy to do as I assume you keep thousands of them piled up in your bedroom.
![[icon]](/data/avatars/m/5/5167.jpg?1660313464){kind=avatar}
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Insoxicated
Oh come on. Both parties are more interested in engaging in a political slapfight and finger pointing to gain election cred than they are in actually getting anything done. Our government has ground to a halt and it's BOTH sides' fault. Both suck. And it's only going to get worse before it gets better.Matthias said:
I can't think of a time where a 3rd party is more needed than right now. Sadly they'd never get anything done since the other two would stonewall any effort to improve the nation at every turn. Buncha jack asses the lot of em. Let it lock down and burn IMO.
The Commish
Footballguy
They don't dare look at the big picture to see all the events both sides have been part of to get us to this position. Let's face it, both parties have contributed substantially to our debt and now it's being used as an excuse to justify childish behavior.
timschochet
Footballguy
Matthias is dead on- not sure why you keep repeating this both sides crap. You seem determined to ignore the elephant in the room.
timschochet
Footballguy
The debt has nothing to do with this shutdown.
The Commish
Footballguy
Of course it does. Tea Party honks are claiming that this will bankrupt our country and grow our debt even more. Now, one should ask them how they allowed it to get passed into law in the first place, but they're ignoring that. It's always someone else's fault in Washington and that's not unique to either side. Until you stop missing the forest for the trees it's not going to change. I hope the people who voted these morons into office take notice, but I'm not holding my breath.
badmojo1006
Footballguy
It seems that when Conservatives know their side has really screwed up, they pull out the "Well Both sides do it"
Arsenal of Doom
Footballguy
The whole "both sides are equally to blame thing" is crazy at this point. You don't need to look farther than Obamacare itself for evidence unless you just don't want to believe the truth. As much as Republicans have tried to jump though mental hoops to deny this, the principal mechanics of ACA started on the right, perpetuated on the right, and were enacted by the right before long before the ACA debate started.
In a rational world, Republicans might have declared victory the second the Public Option was dropped off the table for healthcare reform. But since that would have involved handing Obama a bi-partisan victory they dug into a trench that they have been digging deeper ever since.
Democrats suck too, of course, but what's happening now and what happened the during the last artificial debt ceiling crisis isn't an equal thing. Not even close.
In a rational world, Republicans might have declared victory the second the Public Option was dropped off the table for healthcare reform. But since that would have involved handing Obama a bi-partisan victory they dug into a trench that they have been digging deeper ever since.
Democrats suck too, of course, but what's happening now and what happened the during the last artificial debt ceiling crisis isn't an equal thing. Not even close.
The Commish
Footballguy
So, I've asked this question at least a dozen times in this thread. For those of us who understand what the problems are and have voted accordingly, what else should we do? There's no talking to other voters (especially those who believe voting third party is a 'wasted vote') to try and gain traction with a third party. What's the next step? We all see none of this is working and the only chatter here is about who's fault it is. There's no serious talk about the core issues.Matthias said:
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Insoxicated
The Tea party is certainly much more to blame in the immediate term for the shutdown.
BOTH Parties are partisan Jackasses who engage in childish stunts and finger pointing for political capital that are to the detriment of the general populace.
Period. Anyone asserting anything otherwise is a fool.
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The Commish
Footballguy
And this is what bothers me. We are discussing a topic the GOP once wanted, now hates and that the Dems didn't want and now embrace. WTF?!?!?! There's plenty of crazy to go around in Washington, to the point where arguing who is more crazy seems akin to arguing who the fattest kid at fat camp is.
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[icon]
Insoxicated
Typical myopic view staring down at the ground focusing on the next step instead of raising our heads up and looking a little more forward. The problems are a LOT ####### bigger than this trivial government shutdown that will be over in a week or three.
njherdfan
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
There shouldn't be. Not over this situation.
I agree with you that there is a general level of dysfunction in Washington, and that we can debate how to fix it, and we can discuss what you as a private citizen can do about your own frustration. But what I want to keep stressing is that THIS situation has nothing to do with the normal course of events, and nothing to do with :"core issues". The shutdown happened because extremists within the Republican party have been allowed to take over. Not both parties. Not the political system as a whole. Just within the Republican party. How and why this happened is not an indictment of the system as a whole; it is an indictment of the Republican party alone.
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
Damn. 135 more posts than the next closest competitor. Stop polluting this thread and repeating yourself over and over and over and over and over.
timschochet
Footballguy
dparker713
Footballguy
How is this at all logical. We haven't had a budget passed in years, yet the government has continued functioning that entire time.
jamny
Footballguy
dparker713
Footballguy
Why does anyone think Obama will blink? He's not running for anything ever again and if he caves here they'll pull this same #### with the debt ceiling, which is a much bigger issue.
timschochet
Footballguy
Of course there would have been a shutdown- the question of a working budget is moot, because there never would have been one. At some point during the budget discussions, the Tea Party was determined to either destroy Obamacare or shut things down. This was always their goal from the beginning of the discussions.
timschochet
Footballguy
Andrew Sullivan:
http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/10/01/the-nullification-party/]
I’ve been trying to think of something original to say about the absurdity now transpiring in Washington, DC. I’ve said roughly what I think in short; and I defer to Fallows for an important dose of reality against the predictably moronic coverage of the Washington Post.
But there is something more here. How does one party that has lost two presidential elections and a Supreme Court case – as well as two Senate elections - think it has the right to shut down the entire government and destroy the full faith and credit of the United States Treasury to get its way on universal healthcare now? I see no quid pro quo even. Just pure blackmail, resting on understandable and predictable public concern whenever a major reform is enacted. But what has to be resisted is any idea that this is government or politics as usual. It is an attack on the governance and the constitutional order of the United States.
When ideologies become as calcified, as cocooned and as extremist as those galvanizing the GOP, the American system of government cannot work. But I fear this nullification of the last two elections is a deliberate attempt to ensure that the American system of government as we have known it cannot work. It cannot, must not work, in the mindset of these radicals, because they simply do not accept the legitimacy of a President and Congress of the opposing party. The GOP does not regard the president as merely wrong – but as illegitimate. Not misguided – illegitimate. This is not about ending Obamacare as such (although that is a preliminary scalp); it is about nullifying this presidency, the way the GOP attempted to nullify the last Democratic presidency by impeachment.
Except this time, of course, we cannot deny that race too is an added factor to the fathomless sense of entitlement felt among the GOP far right. You saw it in birtherism; in the Southern GOP’s constant outrageous claims of Obama’s alleged treason and alliance with Islamist enemies; in providing zero votes for a stimulus that was the only thing that prevented a global depression of far worse proportions; in the endless race-baiting from Fox News and the talk radio right. And in this racially-charged atmosphere, providing access to private healthcare insurance to the working poor is obviously the point of no return.
Even though the law is almost identical to that of their last presidential nominee’s in Massachusetts, the GOP is prepared to destroy both the American government and the global economy to stop it. They see it, it seems to me, as both some kind of profound attack on the Constitution (something even Supreme Court Chief Justice John Roberts viewed as a step too far) and, in some inchoate way, as a racial hand-out, however preposterous that is. And that is at the core of the recklessness behind this attack on the US – or at least my best attempt to understand something that has long since gone beyond reason. This is the point of no return – a black president doing something for black citizens (even though the vast majority of beneficiaries of Obamacare will be non-black).I regard this development as one of the more insidious and anti-constitutional acts of racist vandalism against the American republic in my adult lifetime. Those who keep talking as if there are two sides to this, when there are not, are as much a part of the vandalism as Ted Cruz. Obama has played punctiliously by the constitutional rules – two elections, one court case – while the GOP has decided that the rules are for dummies and suckers, and throws over the board game as soon as it looks as if it is going to lose by the rules as they have always applied.
The president must therefore hold absolutely firm. This time, there can be no compromise because the GOP isn’t offering any. They’re offering the kind of constitutional surrender that would effectively end any routine operation of the American government. If we cave to their madness, we may unravel our system of government, something one might have thought conservatives would have opposed. Except these people are not conservatives. They’re vandals.
This time, the elephant must go down. And if possible, it must be so wounded it does not get up for a long time to come.
http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/10/01/the-nullification-party/]
I’ve been trying to think of something original to say about the absurdity now transpiring in Washington, DC. I’ve said roughly what I think in short; and I defer to Fallows for an important dose of reality against the predictably moronic coverage of the Washington Post.
But there is something more here. How does one party that has lost two presidential elections and a Supreme Court case – as well as two Senate elections - think it has the right to shut down the entire government and destroy the full faith and credit of the United States Treasury to get its way on universal healthcare now? I see no quid pro quo even. Just pure blackmail, resting on understandable and predictable public concern whenever a major reform is enacted. But what has to be resisted is any idea that this is government or politics as usual. It is an attack on the governance and the constitutional order of the United States.
When ideologies become as calcified, as cocooned and as extremist as those galvanizing the GOP, the American system of government cannot work. But I fear this nullification of the last two elections is a deliberate attempt to ensure that the American system of government as we have known it cannot work. It cannot, must not work, in the mindset of these radicals, because they simply do not accept the legitimacy of a President and Congress of the opposing party. The GOP does not regard the president as merely wrong – but as illegitimate. Not misguided – illegitimate. This is not about ending Obamacare as such (although that is a preliminary scalp); it is about nullifying this presidency, the way the GOP attempted to nullify the last Democratic presidency by impeachment.
Except this time, of course, we cannot deny that race too is an added factor to the fathomless sense of entitlement felt among the GOP far right. You saw it in birtherism; in the Southern GOP’s constant outrageous claims of Obama’s alleged treason and alliance with Islamist enemies; in providing zero votes for a stimulus that was the only thing that prevented a global depression of far worse proportions; in the endless race-baiting from Fox News and the talk radio right. And in this racially-charged atmosphere, providing access to private healthcare insurance to the working poor is obviously the point of no return.
Even though the law is almost identical to that of their last presidential nominee’s in Massachusetts, the GOP is prepared to destroy both the American government and the global economy to stop it. They see it, it seems to me, as both some kind of profound attack on the Constitution (something even Supreme Court Chief Justice John Roberts viewed as a step too far) and, in some inchoate way, as a racial hand-out, however preposterous that is. And that is at the core of the recklessness behind this attack on the US – or at least my best attempt to understand something that has long since gone beyond reason. This is the point of no return – a black president doing something for black citizens (even though the vast majority of beneficiaries of Obamacare will be non-black).I regard this development as one of the more insidious and anti-constitutional acts of racist vandalism against the American republic in my adult lifetime. Those who keep talking as if there are two sides to this, when there are not, are as much a part of the vandalism as Ted Cruz. Obama has played punctiliously by the constitutional rules – two elections, one court case – while the GOP has decided that the rules are for dummies and suckers, and throws over the board game as soon as it looks as if it is going to lose by the rules as they have always applied.
The president must therefore hold absolutely firm. This time, there can be no compromise because the GOP isn’t offering any. They’re offering the kind of constitutional surrender that would effectively end any routine operation of the American government. If we cave to their madness, we may unravel our system of government, something one might have thought conservatives would have opposed. Except these people are not conservatives. They’re vandals.
This time, the elephant must go down. And if possible, it must be so wounded it does not get up for a long time to come.
dparker713
Footballguy
If this were about the debt, then the compromise would be a CR with a reduction in spending, not a CR that debilitates the ACA.
The Commish
Footballguy
This "situation" isn't a core issue. So I finally agree with you on something. This situation is all politics...nothing more. This "situation" is a symptom of a much bigger problem that both parties contribute to regularly. Until folks want to accept that, we can't move forward.
dparker713
Footballguy
The question is irrelevant. And while its called a CR, its actually functions the same as a budget. It lasts for a shorter period of time, but the government can continue to fully function while operating under CRs. The only reason that this particular CR was blocked was because it happened to take effect the same day as certain provisions of the ACA. Therefore the Republicans thought this gave them leverage. They obviously miscalculated.
timschochet
Footballguy
Thomas Friedman:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/02/opinion/friedman-our-democracy-is-at-stake.html?_r=0
This time is different. What is at stake in this government shutdown forced by a radical Tea Party minority is nothing less than the principle upon which our democracy is based: majority rule. President Obama must not give in to this hostage taking — not just because Obamacare is at stake, but because the future of how we govern ourselves is at stake.
What we’re seeing here is how three structural changes that have been building in American politics have now, together, reached a tipping point — creating a world in which a small minority in Congress can not only hold up their own party but the whole government. And this is the really scary part: The lawmakers doing this can do so with high confidence that they personally will not be politically punished, and may, in fact, be rewarded. When extremists feel that insulated from playing by the traditional rules of our system, if we do not defend those rules — namely majority rule and the fact that if you don’t like a policy passed by Congress, signed by the president and affirmed by the Supreme Court then you have to go out and win an election to overturn it; you can’t just put a fiscal gun to the country’s head — then our democracy is imperiled.
This danger was neatly captured by Washington Post columnist Dana Milbank, when he wrote on Tuesday about the 11th-hour debate in Congress to avert the shutdown. Noting a shameful statement by Speaker John Boehner, Milbank wrote: “Democrats howled about ‘extortion’ and ‘hostage taking,’ which Boehner seemed to confirm when he came to the floor and offered: ‘All the Senate has to do is say ‘yes,’ and the government is funded tomorrow.’ It was the legislative equivalent of saying, ‘Give me the money and nobody gets hurt.’ ”
“Give me the money and nobody gets hurt.” How did we get here? First, by taking gerrymandering to a new level. The political analyst Charlie Cook, writing in The National Journal on March 16, noted that the 2010 election gave Republican state legislatures around the country unprecedented power to redraw political boundaries, which they used to create even more “safe, lily-white” Republican strongholds that are, in effect, an “alternative universe” to the country’s diverse reality.
“Between 2000 and 2010, the non-Hispanic white share of the population fell from 69 percent to 64 percent,” wrote Cook. “But after the post-census redistricting and the 2012 elections, the non-Hispanic white share of the average Republican House district jumped from 73 percent to 75 percent, and the average Democratic House district declined from 52 percent white to 51 percent white. In other words, while the country continues to grow more racially diverse, the average Republican district continues to get even whiter.”
According to Cook, the number of strongly Democratic districts decreased from 144 before redistricting to 136 afterward. The number of strongly Republican districts increased from 175 to 183. “When one party starts out with 47 more very strong districts than the other,” said Cook, “the numbers suggest that the fix is in for any election featuring a fairly neutral environment. Republicans would need to mess up pretty badly to lose their House majority in the near future.” In other words, there is little risk of political punishment for the Tea Party members now holding the country hostage.
Meanwhile, the Supreme Court’s inane Citizens United decision allowed a single donor, Sheldon Adelson, to create his own alternative universe. He was able to contribute so much money to support Newt Gingrich’s candidacy that Gingrich was able to stay in the Republican presidential primary race longer than he would have under sane campaign finance rules. As a result, Gingrich was able to pull the G.O.P.’s leading candidate, Mitt Romney, farther to the right longer, making it harder for him to garner centrist votes. Last month, for the first time ever in Colorado, two state senators who voted for universal background checks on gun purchases lost their seats in a recall election engineered by gun extremists and reportedly financed with some $400,000 from the National Rifle Association. You’re elected, you vote your conscience on a narrow issue, but now determined opponents don’t have to wait for the next election. With enough money, they can get rid of you in weeks.
Finally, the rise of a separate G.O.P. (and a liberal) media universe — from talk-radio hosts, to Web sites to Fox News — has created another gravity-free zone, where there is no punishment for extreme behavior, but there’s 1,000 lashes on Twitter if you deviate from the hard-line and great coverage to those who are most extreme. When politicians only operate inside these bubbles, they lose the habit of persuasion and opt only for coercion. After all, they must be right. Rush Limbaugh told them so.
These “legal” structural changes in money, media and redistricting are not going away. They are superempowering small political movements to act in extreme ways without consequences and thereby stymie majority rule. If democracy means anything, it means that, if you are outvoted, you accept the results and prepare for the next election. Republicans are refusing to do that. It shows contempt for the democratic process.
President Obama is not defending health care. He’s defending the health of our democracy. Every American who cherishes that should stand with him.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/02/opinion/friedman-our-democracy-is-at-stake.html?_r=0
This time is different. What is at stake in this government shutdown forced by a radical Tea Party minority is nothing less than the principle upon which our democracy is based: majority rule. President Obama must not give in to this hostage taking — not just because Obamacare is at stake, but because the future of how we govern ourselves is at stake.
What we’re seeing here is how three structural changes that have been building in American politics have now, together, reached a tipping point — creating a world in which a small minority in Congress can not only hold up their own party but the whole government. And this is the really scary part: The lawmakers doing this can do so with high confidence that they personally will not be politically punished, and may, in fact, be rewarded. When extremists feel that insulated from playing by the traditional rules of our system, if we do not defend those rules — namely majority rule and the fact that if you don’t like a policy passed by Congress, signed by the president and affirmed by the Supreme Court then you have to go out and win an election to overturn it; you can’t just put a fiscal gun to the country’s head — then our democracy is imperiled.
This danger was neatly captured by Washington Post columnist Dana Milbank, when he wrote on Tuesday about the 11th-hour debate in Congress to avert the shutdown. Noting a shameful statement by Speaker John Boehner, Milbank wrote: “Democrats howled about ‘extortion’ and ‘hostage taking,’ which Boehner seemed to confirm when he came to the floor and offered: ‘All the Senate has to do is say ‘yes,’ and the government is funded tomorrow.’ It was the legislative equivalent of saying, ‘Give me the money and nobody gets hurt.’ ”
“Give me the money and nobody gets hurt.” How did we get here? First, by taking gerrymandering to a new level. The political analyst Charlie Cook, writing in The National Journal on March 16, noted that the 2010 election gave Republican state legislatures around the country unprecedented power to redraw political boundaries, which they used to create even more “safe, lily-white” Republican strongholds that are, in effect, an “alternative universe” to the country’s diverse reality.
“Between 2000 and 2010, the non-Hispanic white share of the population fell from 69 percent to 64 percent,” wrote Cook. “But after the post-census redistricting and the 2012 elections, the non-Hispanic white share of the average Republican House district jumped from 73 percent to 75 percent, and the average Democratic House district declined from 52 percent white to 51 percent white. In other words, while the country continues to grow more racially diverse, the average Republican district continues to get even whiter.”
According to Cook, the number of strongly Democratic districts decreased from 144 before redistricting to 136 afterward. The number of strongly Republican districts increased from 175 to 183. “When one party starts out with 47 more very strong districts than the other,” said Cook, “the numbers suggest that the fix is in for any election featuring a fairly neutral environment. Republicans would need to mess up pretty badly to lose their House majority in the near future.” In other words, there is little risk of political punishment for the Tea Party members now holding the country hostage.
Meanwhile, the Supreme Court’s inane Citizens United decision allowed a single donor, Sheldon Adelson, to create his own alternative universe. He was able to contribute so much money to support Newt Gingrich’s candidacy that Gingrich was able to stay in the Republican presidential primary race longer than he would have under sane campaign finance rules. As a result, Gingrich was able to pull the G.O.P.’s leading candidate, Mitt Romney, farther to the right longer, making it harder for him to garner centrist votes. Last month, for the first time ever in Colorado, two state senators who voted for universal background checks on gun purchases lost their seats in a recall election engineered by gun extremists and reportedly financed with some $400,000 from the National Rifle Association. You’re elected, you vote your conscience on a narrow issue, but now determined opponents don’t have to wait for the next election. With enough money, they can get rid of you in weeks.
Finally, the rise of a separate G.O.P. (and a liberal) media universe — from talk-radio hosts, to Web sites to Fox News — has created another gravity-free zone, where there is no punishment for extreme behavior, but there’s 1,000 lashes on Twitter if you deviate from the hard-line and great coverage to those who are most extreme. When politicians only operate inside these bubbles, they lose the habit of persuasion and opt only for coercion. After all, they must be right. Rush Limbaugh told them so.
These “legal” structural changes in money, media and redistricting are not going away. They are superempowering small political movements to act in extreme ways without consequences and thereby stymie majority rule. If democracy means anything, it means that, if you are outvoted, you accept the results and prepare for the next election. Republicans are refusing to do that. It shows contempt for the democratic process.
President Obama is not defending health care. He’s defending the health of our democracy. Every American who cherishes that should stand with him.
baymen
Footballguy
What I find fascinating and quite stupid of the GOP stance is that the CR that the Senate has proposed is only through November 15th. A fight like this over a 6 week CR doesn't make much sense to me. I always thought the battle would be over the debt ceiling, but maybe their plan all along was to force a shutdown to gain more leverage as the ceiling approaches in a couple of weeks.
The Commish
Footballguy
What do you base this on? The GOP appears to be less sane now than they did when we went from three stars down to two. Hope you're right, but I'll believe it when I see it.Matthias said:
badmojo1006
Footballguy
Where is Paul Ryan in all this chaos?
timschochet
Footballguy
I want to believe this too, but who the heck knows at this point? Friedman was correct when he pointed out that these people are insulated by the gerrymandering. Their constituents want them to vote against raising the debt ceiling. They want to bring things to a halt.Matthias said:
baymen
Footballguy
I believe sanity will prevail as well and the debt ceiling will be raised but there may be a few games of chicken between the 2 parties before the deadline passes.
Boehner makes speeches about the GOP's job is to remove uncertainty with regards to fiscal issues facing the economy and he is doing the exact opposite whether he is being held hostage or not by the tea party contingent.
timschochet
Footballguy
Looks like the House Republicans will spend the day voting on 3 piecemeal bills- the exact same ones that were rejected yesterday, The exact same ones which the Senate has declared they will reject even if passed by the House, and which Obama says he will veto even if passed by the Senate.
But what the hell, gotta keep trying, right? After all, these are the same guys who attempted to overturn Obamacare 43 times.
But what the hell, gotta keep trying, right? After all, these are the same guys who attempted to overturn Obamacare 43 times.
TheIronSheik
SUPER ELITE UPPER TIER
Henry Ford
Footballguy
PlasmaDogPlasma
Footballguy
I don't quite get what you're laughing at. It was pretty big news that the SC struck down DOMA in June.Premier said:Wowwdcrob said:quickhands said:
DOMA was struck down by the Supreme Court.
Might want to recheck your newspaper. Should be easy to do as I assume you keep thousands of them piled up in your bedroom.
PlasmaDogPlasma
Footballguy
The NSA still has money to spy on us, right?
Won't anybody think of spying on the children?
Won't anybody think of spying on the children?
jamny
Footballguy
I don't care if you think the question is irrelevant, there is an easy answer. No. If we had a working budget the government wouldn't be shut down at this moment. Until they tackle the issues one at a time and stop kicking real decisions down the road, we will continue to have silliness like this. No one is willing to step in and try to unite those involved. Both sides are at fault. Yes, the Republicans, and specifically the Tea Party for this, and possibly the Dems for the next one. It never ends.dparker713 said:
5 digit know nothing
Footballguy
And you're welcome to keep spewing the same bull#### you keep spewing over and over again in this thread:timschochet said:
http://www.quinnipiac.edu/institutes-and-centers/polling-institute/national/release-detail?ReleaseID=1958
timschochet
Footballguy
So despite the fact that I wrote exactly what the poll said, I don't bother with details?
What the poll said is that 72% of the American public doesn't want shutting down the government used as a tactic to block the ACA.
Now, my interpretation of this is that 72% believe Republicans are responsible. Unless you believe somehow that Democrats are attempting to block the ACA, I don't see how any other interpretation is reasonable. Both the source I quoted and Quinnipac, who held the poll, came to the exact same conclusion. But if you disagree, have at it.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Next, we can talk about the difference between "gridlock" and "shutdown."
