What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

The Tea Party is back in business! (1 Viewer)

Joe T's bogus arguments' aside, I think the Democratic leadership is making a mistake here. The Susan Collins plan, which was renewed by moderates on both sides today, is a reasonable compromise IMO. Dems don't like it because it extends the sequestration cuts into next year. I hate those ####### cuts, but I'm willing to accept them to reach a compromise. The other reason the Dems don't like it because with the device tax being removed, it would allow the Republicans to claim some sort of victory, and progressives don't want ANY gain for Republicans out of this. I already expressed what I thought was wrong with that position.

It's amusing to me that in the comments on Huffington Post, there are dozens of posts complaining that the Dems may "cave" to Republican demands, just as in conservative forums there are complaints that Republicans will "cave" to Democratic demands. This is the price of any kind of bipartisanship: the extremists on both sides get really pissed off. Hopefully the Collins plan will garner more support.

 
So if the debt ceiling doesn't get raised, why do we automatically default? We could actually propose a balanced budget and avoid that, right?

 
So if the debt ceiling doesn't get raised, why do we automatically default? We could actually propose a balanced budget and avoid that, right?
Because the debt ceiling isn't about the next budget. It's about money already spent.
Alright, so we put in a balanced budget, raise it just enough so that it covers us until that kicks in. Then we're good.

 
So if the debt ceiling doesn't get raised, why do we automatically default? We could actually propose a balanced budget and avoid that, right?
Because the debt ceiling isn't about the next budget. It's about money already spent.
Alright, so we put in a balanced budget, raise it just enough so that it covers us until that kicks in. Then we're good.
You would have to immediately cut around 80 billion a month. Where would those cuts take place?

 
Trying to catch up before Monday morning. A recap would be great - here are my main questions.

Is the goal still a clean CR and a clean DL bill? Will anyone accept a clean DL without the CR?

Are both sides now into negotiations? I've seen talk on sequestration changes, the Lankford Bill, the Vitter Ammendment, medical device taxes, verification of means for Medicare/ACA.

Was the 6 week DL extension Boehner discussed last week considered clean?

TIA.

 
Dems: raise the debt limit and open government with no strings attached and we'll vote for it.

Joe T Party: we can't do that, here are a bunch of other conditions.

Dems: we can't accept that, it's a clean bill or nothing

Joe T Party: you're not negotiating!

Dems: OK, we'll negotiate -- here are some ideas on what we could support.

Joe T Party: See! Dems take hostages too!

 
So if the debt ceiling doesn't get raised, why do we automatically default? We could actually propose a balanced budget and avoid that, right?
Because the debt ceiling isn't about the next budget. It's about money already spent.
I've been trying to understand this position forever, because people keep posting it, but I don't think it's right. It's not money that's already been spent, it's money that's already been agreed to be spent, right? That is, it's money that Congress has already authorized but not yet spent. If it was already spent, then it would already have been borrowed and be part of the debt already, no?

Now, if you want to claim that the authorization to spend the money is a binding contract and, as such, must be upheld, that's cool. I can get behind that position. But I don't think, technically, it's money that's "already been spent".

 
But keep in mind, all this means a hill of beans in the big picture if let's say enrollment problems for the ACA continue or they don't get the numbers they need to fund the program or let's say the premiums and coverage are not what was promised. The public perception will be "shutdown?? what is this shutdown you talk of??
Cool! We tried health care reform the conservative way and it failed. Lets try it the right way now - single government payer!
I thought you were in favor of ACA no?
The ACA is a minor realignment of the government with the trends in the health care industry. The industry knows that the economy cannot sustain the explosive costs of the recent past. I just a made a large post in the ACA thread to explain this. (No I am neither an insider nor an expert.)

As to that ACA I don't how much longer our mix model healthcare system that it is based on can last.
So you're good bypassing this ACA fiasco and trying single payer? Couldn't tell from your original post if you thought this solution was "single payer" or you were suggesting that ACA is basically the repub solution from a couple decades ago and it was time to move on to something else.
The ACA is certainly an attempt to thwart off moving towards "single payer", but I'm not necessarily certain that "single payer" is the best way to go. It is probably the simplest and easiest to imagine, but I could have also seen something like

  • The government provides tax credits making routine care (annual checkups, vaccines, routine diagnostic test, etc.) desirable to have. (i.e. it more than pays for the care. For the same reason that "wellness" plans have been popping up paying you to do stuff that could save money.)
  • Have the government fund a HSA for every American every year (lets say $5000 because it is a nice round number)
  • The government throws in a senior bonus for those over 65 to account for no more Medicare,
  • The government provide "catastrophic" coverage at some level (lets say anything above $100,000 because it is also a nice round number)
  • Individuals are mandated to buy coverage between their HSA balance and the start of the catastrophic level. So one could save and eventually be self insured.
  • ACA type rules for Insurers (pre-existing conditions, can't drop members, pricing rules, etc.)
Seen because I think the time for the above or some variation was a few years ago and now, I think it is too late.

This stuff was added.
I like most of this actually. Where do you see addressing costs fitting in? To me, that's the biggest issue. It was really driven home to me this weekend. A buddy of mine was in Germany for a couple months doing some mountain biking. He fell off his bike and pretty much screwed up every bone in his left arm sans 3 fingers. They took him to the hospital and with various screws, wires and stitched fixing him up, he was out the door for $3k. He's been home now and Friday was time for him to get the wires taken out and a couple of screws. Price tag? $25,000. Really?? This country is seriously out of whack when it comes to costs. Something has to be done there.

 
So if the debt ceiling doesn't get raised, why do we automatically default? We could actually propose a balanced budget and avoid that, right?
Because the debt ceiling isn't about the next budget. It's about money already spent.
I've been trying to understand this position forever, because people keep posting it, but I don't think it's right. It's not money that's already been spent, it's money that's already been agreed to be spent, right? That is, it's money that Congress has already authorized but not yet spent. If it was already spent, then it would already have been borrowed and be part of the debt already, no?

Now, if you want to claim that the authorization to spend the money is a binding contract and, as such, must be upheld, that's cool. I can get behind that position. But I don't think, technically, it's money that's "already been spent".
Think of it like your credit card. Treasury borrows when the bill comes in the mail. After the money is spent.

 
So if the debt ceiling doesn't get raised, why do we automatically default? We could actually propose a balanced budget and avoid that, right?
Because the debt ceiling isn't about the next budget. It's about money already spent.
I've been trying to understand this position forever, because people keep posting it, but I don't think it's right. It's not money that's already been spent, it's money that's already been agreed to be spent, right? That is, it's money that Congress has already authorized but not yet spent. If it was already spent, then it would already have been borrowed and be part of the debt already, no?

Now, if you want to claim that the authorization to spend the money is a binding contract and, as such, must be upheld, that's cool. I can get behind that position. But I don't think, technically, it's money that's "already been spent".
Think of it like your credit card. Treasury borrows when the bill comes in the mail. After the money is spent.
Just for clarity, define "spent". Are you saying this is money that was spent in the previous year's budget? Or is this money needed to fund the upcoming year's budget?

 
I've been trying to understand this position forever, because people keep posting it, but I don't think it's right. It's not money that's already been spent, it's money that's already been agreed to be spent, right? That is, it's money that Congress has already authorized but not yet spent. If it was already spent, then it would already have been borrowed and be part of the debt already, no?

Now, if you want to claim that the authorization to spend the money is a binding contract and, as such, must be upheld, that's cool. I can get behind that position. But I don't think, technically, it's money that's "already been spent".
Think of it like your credit card. Treasury borrows when the bill comes in the mail. After the money is spent.
Just for clarity, define "spent". Are you saying this is money that was spent in the previous year's budget? Or is this money needed to fund the upcoming year's budget?
I don't know if it's segregated by years -- but the borrowing happens to pay bills that have already come in. So Congress has authorized the spending, the goods or service have been purchased and now the bill has come due. Then Treasury borrows to pay for the bills. So the debt limit is driven by spending that's already happened.

Not raising the debt limit isn't saying, 'we're going to spend less'. It's saying, 'we're not going to pay for the stuff we already bought'.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
So if the debt ceiling doesn't get raised, why do we automatically default? We could actually propose a balanced budget and avoid that, right?
Because the debt ceiling isn't about the next budget. It's about money already spent.
Alright, so we put in a balanced budget, raise it just enough so that it covers us until that kicks in. Then we're good.
You would have to immediately cut around 80 billion a month. Where would those cuts take place?
In the federal budget.

 
So if the debt ceiling doesn't get raised, why do we automatically default? We could actually propose a balanced budget and avoid that, right?
Because the debt ceiling isn't about the next budget. It's about money already spent.
Alright, so we put in a balanced budget, raise it just enough so that it covers us until that kicks in. Then we're good.
You would have to immediately cut around 80 billion a month. Where would those cuts take place?
In the federal budget.
So you refuse to be specific?

 
So if the debt ceiling doesn't get raised, why do we automatically default? We could actually propose a balanced budget and avoid that, right?
Because the debt ceiling isn't about the next budget. It's about money already spent.
Alright, so we put in a balanced budget, raise it just enough so that it covers us until that kicks in. Then we're good.
You would have to immediately cut around 80 billion a month. Where would those cuts take place?
In the federal budget.
You still owe me an account of the $10 trillion in new Obama spending added to the budget. You have had three years or so to put the list together. Have it ready?
 
Trying to catch up before Monday morning. A recap would be great - here are my main questions.

Is the goal still a clean CR and a clean DL bill? Will anyone accept a clean DL without the CR?

Are both sides now into negotiations? I've seen talk on sequestration changes, the Lankford Bill, the Vitter Ammendment, medical device taxes, verification of means for Medicare/ACA.

Was the 6 week DL extension Boehner discussed last week considered clean?

TIA.
1. The Democrats have insisted on a clean CR and DL bill all along. The Republicans keep trying to negotiate new terms. First it was about Obamacare, now it is about spending in general. The Democrats have responded with their own ideas; but would still accept a clean CR and DL if it were offered.

2. There has been some talk by the Republicans about a clean DL without the CR. But it has not been offered, so nobody really knows how the Dems would respond.

3. Yes both sides are negotiating. Incidentally, Boehner has said for the past 2 weeks this was all he wanted in order to end the shut down- for the President to negotiate. The negotiations have been going on for a week, and the government is still shut down.

4. No, the 6 week DL came with a list of strings attached, which were rejected by Obama.

 
So we are going to just endless extend our debt ceiling with no plan to stop our endless spiral into certain death. Simply brilliant. God I hate Washington.

 
Spending Dispute Leaves a Senate Deal Elusive

WASHINGTON — With a possible default on government obligations just days away, Senate Democratic leaders — believing they have a political advantage in the continuing fiscal impasse — refused Sunday to sign on to any deal that reopens the government but locks in budget cuts for next year.

The disagreement extended the stalemate that has kept much of the government shuttered for two weeks and threatens to force a federal default.

The core of the dispute is about spending, and how long a stopgap measure that would reopen the government should last. Democrats want the across-the-board cuts known as sequestration to last only through mid-November; Republicans want them to last as long as possible.

The Democrats’ demand shows a newfound aggressiveness. Previously, they had favored a so-called clean bill that would reopen the government and lift the debt ceiling without any policy changes attached. With Republicans on the defensive, it remains unclear whether the Democrats are using a negotiating ploy to raise the likelihood that any final deal will include their priorities as well as the Republicans’.

Democrats said Sunday that Senator Harry Reid of Nevada, the majority leader, and Senator Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, the Republican leader — who spoke only briefly by telephone — were inching forward, and that a breakthrough was possible before the debt default deadline on Thursday.

“They had a good conversation,” Senator Charles E. Schumer of New York, the No. 3 Democrat, said on Sunday evening.

“They are moving closer together, and I’m hopeful the Senate can save the day.”

Republicans accused Democrats of accepting nothing short of capitulation without offering anything in return. “The Democrats keep moving the goal posts,” said Senator Susan Collins of Maine, one of the lead Republican negotiators. “Decisions within the Democratic conference are constantly changing.”

Senator John McCain, Republican of Arizona, warned on the CBS News program “Face the Nation” that the Democrats “better understand something.”

“What goes around comes around,” he said, “and if they try to humiliate Republicans, things change in American politics.”

A rally on the National Mall, led by Senator Ted Cruz, Republican of Texas, and former Gov. Sarah Palin of Alaska, was intended to show that Tea Party activists — supporters of the House Republicans who forced the shutdown over their opposition to the new health care law — were in no mood to give in. Some waved Confederate flags and called for President Obama to be impeached.

The dispute may involve debt ceiling technicalities, but at the core of the fight is a more fundamental question: with polls showing that Republicans are carrying the brunt of the blame for the shutdown, can Democrats demand total surrender, or should they offer concessions to complete the deal?

“You can’t just demand pure capitulation,” said Representative Tom Cole, Republican of Oklahoma. “Negotiations don’t work that way.”

Republicans once said that they would finance the government only if the president’s health care law was gutted. A bipartisan Senate framework drafted by Ms. Collins and Senator Joe Manchin III, Democrat of West Virginia, started with a face-saving move for Republicans of a repeal of a tax on medical devices that helps pay for the Affordable Care Act. When Senate Democratic leaders objected, that was tempered to a two-year delay of the tax.

Republicans had also insisted on tightening income verification rules for the health care law’s subsidized insurance exchanges. Now Democrats are rewriting that language as well.

“What am I getting?” Ms. Collins said. “I’m serious. I’ve bent over backward.”

Democrats have agreed to engage in formal budget negotiations — where, they acknowledge, Republicans may have the upper hand once the government is reopened and the threat of default is lifted. Both sides say they want a deal that reduces the deficit over the long term.

Republicans have one advantage: if no deal is reached during those talks, the next round of automatic cuts, even deeper than the first, go into force on Jan. 1.

“We know that come 10 years from now, Medicare is not sustainable financially,” Senator Richard J. Durbin of Illinois, the second-ranking Democrat, said on the NBC News program “Meet the Press.” “We’ve got to do something.”

“And I have to say to the Republican side, ‘For goodness’s sakes, we cannot find some savings, closing some loopholes, quote, raising revenue?’ Well, of course we can,” he said.

The Collins plan would maintain sequestration-level spending through Jan. 15, when formal budget negotiators would be required to complete a House-Senate agreement on spending and taxation over the next decade. That date was already a concession. Ms. Collins, along with Senators Kelly Ayotte of New Hampshire and Lisa Murkowski of Alaska, both Republicans, initially wanted to finance the government for six months at those levels. The initial proposal by Ms. Collins would also have extended the debt ceiling only to Nov. 15, but at the request of Senate Democratic leaders, she and Mr. McConnell pushed it back to Jan. 31.

Mr. McConnell formally endorsed the Collins proposal on Sunday.

“It would reopen the government, prevent a default, provide the opportunity for additional budget negotiations around Washington’s long-term debt, and maintain the commitment that Congress made to reduce Washington spending,” he said in a statement. “It’s time for Democrat leaders to take ‘yes’ for an answer.”

But Democratic leaders have balked, and they flexed their muscle Sunday with a group of Democratic and independent senators negotiating with Ms. Collins.

Ms. Collins said eight Democrats were now involved in negotiations, including Mr. Manchin, and Senator Angus King, an independent from Maine who caucuses with the Democrats.

“The Democratic leadership is clearly very strong and has a lot of sway over its members,” Ms. Collins said.

Underscoring those concerns, six of the senators negotiating with Ms. Collins — Mr. Manchin, Mr. King, Heidi Heitkamp of North Dakota, Mark Pryor of Arkansas, Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota and Joe Donnelly of Indiana — released a joint statement acknowledging involvement in the talks but saying they could not support the proposal “in its current form.”

“There are negotiations,” they said, “but there is no agreement.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/14/us/politics/budget-and-debt-limit-debate.html?_r=0

Key point again as pointed out above by the NY Times is that democrats are now refusing to sign anything that does not reverse some of the spending cuts in the sequester. They want to negotiate and change existing law after complaining about the republicans wanting to negotiate obamacare.

 
So we are going to just endless extend our debt ceiling with no plan to stop our endless spiral into certain death. Simply brilliant. God I hate Washington.
Not sure what you're hoping for here. Even if the most conservative Republicans in the House got their way with regard to spending, we would still have to raise the debt ceiling for the next decade at least. There is simply no means to cut enough spending not to.

In addition, maybe it won't spiral us into "certain death." Like you, I've always been concerned that it would, but progressives like Krugman argue that, as a percentage of our overall GDP, our current spending is not especially high, and that it will not hurt our economy in the long run- in fact, it might actually benefit us, as it did during and after World War II. It;s an interesting argument...

 
Corker said both sides in the Senate are now in a place, grounded in reality. "Let's face it. Republicans have overreached on the health-care bill," he said of the strategy of linking a delay in funding for Obamacare to an agreement on the debt ceiling. He said Democrats had been trying to "actually bust or break the budget control act, which is also settled law."
http://www.cnbc.com/id/101102554

 
"We're not going to solve the biggest [debt] issues over the next three days," Corker said. "If we can do something for a period of time to get us to that place, maybe we finally do those things that we all know need to happen and have been working on for so long."

That point may come in mid-January. "We keep putting off these episodes. But on the other hand, the moment—the sort of 'twitching hour'—is when this next level of sequester kicks in on Jan. 15. That's a pressure point that Democrats don't want to see happen."
http://www.cnbc.com/id/101102554

 
Spending Dispute Leaves a Senate Deal Elusive

WASHINGTON — With a possible default on government obligations just days away, Senate Democratic leaders — believing they have a political advantage in the continuing fiscal impasse — refused Sunday to sign on to any deal that reopens the government but locks in budget cuts for next year.

The disagreement extended the stalemate that has kept much of the government shuttered for two weeks and threatens to force a federal default.

The core of the dispute is about spending, and how long a stopgap measure that would reopen the government should last. Democrats want the across-the-board cuts known as sequestration to last only through mid-November; Republicans want them to last as long as possible.

The Democrats’ demand shows a newfound aggressiveness. Previously, they had favored a so-called clean bill that would reopen the government and lift the debt ceiling without any policy changes attached. With Republicans on the defensive, it remains unclear whether the Democrats are using a negotiating ploy to raise the likelihood that any final deal will include their priorities as well as the Republicans’.

Democrats said Sunday that Senator Harry Reid of Nevada, the majority leader, and Senator Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, the Republican leader — who spoke only briefly by telephone — were inching forward, and that a breakthrough was possible before the debt default deadline on Thursday.

“They had a good conversation,” Senator Charles E. Schumer of New York, the No. 3 Democrat, said on Sunday evening.

“They are moving closer together, and I’m hopeful the Senate can save the day.”

Republicans accused Democrats of accepting nothing short of capitulation without offering anything in return. “The Democrats keep moving the goal posts,” said Senator Susan Collins of Maine, one of the lead Republican negotiators. “Decisions within the Democratic conference are constantly changing.”

Senator John McCain, Republican of Arizona, warned on the CBS News program “Face the Nation” that the Democrats “better understand something.”

“What goes around comes around,” he said, “and if they try to humiliate Republicans, things change in American politics.”

A rally on the National Mall, led by Senator Ted Cruz, Republican of Texas, and former Gov. Sarah Palin of Alaska, was intended to show that Tea Party activists — supporters of the House Republicans who forced the shutdown over their opposition to the new health care law — were in no mood to give in. Some waved Confederate flags and called for President Obama to be impeached.

The dispute may involve debt ceiling technicalities, but at the core of the fight is a more fundamental question: with polls showing that Republicans are carrying the brunt of the blame for the shutdown, can Democrats demand total surrender, or should they offer concessions to complete the deal?

“You can’t just demand pure capitulation,” said Representative Tom Cole, Republican of Oklahoma. “Negotiations don’t work that way.”

Republicans once said that they would finance the government only if the president’s health care law was gutted. A bipartisan Senate framework drafted by Ms. Collins and Senator Joe Manchin III, Democrat of West Virginia, started with a face-saving move for Republicans of a repeal of a tax on medical devices that helps pay for the Affordable Care Act. When Senate Democratic leaders objected, that was tempered to a two-year delay of the tax.

Republicans had also insisted on tightening income verification rules for the health care law’s subsidized insurance exchanges. Now Democrats are rewriting that language as well.

“What am I getting?” Ms. Collins said. “I’m serious. I’ve bent over backward.”

Democrats have agreed to engage in formal budget negotiations — where, they acknowledge, Republicans may have the upper hand once the government is reopened and the threat of default is lifted. Both sides say they want a deal that reduces the deficit over the long term.

Republicans have one advantage: if no deal is reached during those talks, the next round of automatic cuts, even deeper than the first, go into force on Jan. 1.

“We know that come 10 years from now, Medicare is not sustainable financially,” Senator Richard J. Durbin of Illinois, the second-ranking Democrat, said on the NBC News program “Meet the Press.” “We’ve got to do something.”

“And I have to say to the Republican side, ‘For goodness’s sakes, we cannot find some savings, closing some loopholes, quote, raising revenue?’ Well, of course we can,” he said.

The Collins plan would maintain sequestration-level spending through Jan. 15, when formal budget negotiators would be required to complete a House-Senate agreement on spending and taxation over the next decade. That date was already a concession. Ms. Collins, along with Senators Kelly Ayotte of New Hampshire and Lisa Murkowski of Alaska, both Republicans, initially wanted to finance the government for six months at those levels. The initial proposal by Ms. Collins would also have extended the debt ceiling only to Nov. 15, but at the request of Senate Democratic leaders, she and Mr. McConnell pushed it back to Jan. 31.

Mr. McConnell formally endorsed the Collins proposal on Sunday.

“It would reopen the government, prevent a default, provide the opportunity for additional budget negotiations around Washington’s long-term debt, and maintain the commitment that Congress made to reduce Washington spending,” he said in a statement. “It’s time for Democrat leaders to take ‘yes’ for an answer.”

But Democratic leaders have balked, and they flexed their muscle Sunday with a group of Democratic and independent senators negotiating with Ms. Collins.

Ms. Collins said eight Democrats were now involved in negotiations, including Mr. Manchin, and Senator Angus King, an independent from Maine who caucuses with the Democrats.

“The Democratic leadership is clearly very strong and has a lot of sway over its members,” Ms. Collins said.

Underscoring those concerns, six of the senators negotiating with Ms. Collins — Mr. Manchin, Mr. King, Heidi Heitkamp of North Dakota, Mark Pryor of Arkansas, Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota and Joe Donnelly of Indiana — released a joint statement acknowledging involvement in the talks but saying they could not support the proposal “in its current form.”

“There are negotiations,” they said, “but there is no agreement.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/14/us/politics/budget-and-debt-limit-debate.html?_r=0

Key point again as pointed out above by the NY Times is that democrats are now refusing to sign anything that does not reverse some of the spending cuts in the sequester. They want to negotiate and change existing law after complaining about the republicans wanting to negotiate obamacare.
The Dems are not holding anyone hostage. They would still accept a clean CR and DL. All the Republicans have to do is offer it. They have not. If your premise were accurate, the Republicans would put forth a clean CR and DL today, and we'll see how the vote goes.

But I appreciate you posting the article, which reaffirms what Politico reported last night. I believe the Democratic leadership is overreaching here. I think they're trying to humiliate the Republicans completely, and that is bad politics and bad for the country. Even if they win, they will regret it. Both sides should accept the Collins compromise and be done with this already. Thursday is 4 days away...

 
The Democrats’ demand shows a newfound aggressiveness. Previously, they had favored a so-called clean bill that would reopen the government and lift the debt ceiling without any policy changes attached. With Republicans on the defensive, it remains unclear whether the Democrats are using a negotiating ploy to raise the likelihood that any final deal will include their priorities as well as the Republicans’.
 
Reid and McConnell—five-term senators hardened by budget disputes and years of negotiations—are at an impasse over the automatic, across-the-board spending cuts known as sequestration and whether to undo or change them as part of a budget deal. Republicans want to keep the spending at the deficit-cutting level of the 2011 budget law while Democrats are pressing for a higher amount.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/101109591

 
Rich Conway said:
Henry Ford said:
DrJ said:
So if the debt ceiling doesn't get raised, why do we automatically default? We could actually propose a balanced budget and avoid that, right?
Because the debt ceiling isn't about the next budget. It's about money already spent.
I've been trying to understand this position forever, because people keep posting it, but I don't think it's right. It's not money that's already been spent, it's money that's already been agreed to be spent, right? That is, it's money that Congress has already authorized but not yet spent. If it was already spent, then it would already have been borrowed and be part of the debt already, no?

Now, if you want to claim that the authorization to spend the money is a binding contract and, as such, must be upheld, that's cool. I can get behind that position. But I don't think, technically, it's money that's "already been spent".
Yeah, it's more like running a business on credit with purveyors than it is like handing cash over every day. You order $2000 worth of steaks from one of your purveyors. The steaks come in, and the purveyor hands you a bill to be paid within two days. You cook the steaks, sell the steaks, get the money from the steaks, and then tell the purveyor that his steaks were too expensive, you didn't really budget for it, and you're not going to pay him the cash.

Whether or not you actually hand that purveyor cash, you're on the hook. You have a negative item on your balance sheet for that money - just like if you'd paid it out in cash. Unless you plan to file bankruptcy and stiff the purveyor, you will end up physically paying that money.

 
On the off chance you care about what's actually happening here Joe, it's this...

Dems have said they aren't going to make concessions to get a clean CR and a clean debt limit bill.

But Republicans have said they have to get something -- politically they can't just completely surrender.

So Dems are saying, 'OK -- we'll give you something, but we're going to get something beyond a clean debt limit and a clean CR in return since we're not making concessions just to get those.'

 
On the off chance you care about what's actually happening here Joe, it's this...

Dems have said they aren't going to make concessions to get a clean CR and a clean debt limit bill.

But Republicans have said they have to get something -- politically they can't just completely surrender.

So Dems are saying, 'OK -- we'll give you something, but we're going to get something beyond a clean debt limit and a clean CR in return since we're not making concessions just to get those.'
This has been repeatedly explained to him. He doesn't care.

 
Joe T said:
Corker said both sides in the Senate are now in a place, grounded in reality. "Let's face it. Republicans have overreached on the health-care bill," he said of the strategy of linking a delay in funding for Obamacare to an agreement on the debt ceiling. He said Democrats had been trying to "actually bust or break the budget control act, which is also settled law."
http://www.cnbc.com/id/101102554
Again, this is a misdirection. Let's go over the facts:

1. The continuing resolution (CR) which led to the government shutdown was supposed to be for 6 weeks. The Democrats agreed to the Republican budget for those 6 weeks, but never agreed to it long term. The Democrats wanted to discuss the sequester cuts; they had been demanding to go into conference to do so, and Boehner has been refusing this for months. That's why the CR was for such a short period, because at the end of it the Dems hoped to bring up the sequester again. Then the Republicans refused to pass even the 6 week CR, unless they got changes to Obamacare.

2. Now the Republicans have placed a new offer on the table; they will vote to extend the CR and the DL, but ONLY if the CR is extended not just for 6 weeks, but for nearly a year. The Dems naturally replied that if you guys want to extend the CR that long, then we need to immediately resolve this sequester issue, which we've been requesting to do all along. Again, it is not the Democrats who are insisting on new demands here. And it's the Republicans who continue to hold the government hostage unless they can get what they want.

 
What exactly is the "sequester issue"?? Never understood this. It's law that went into effect because these morons couldn't agree on anything. So what's the actual "issue" here?

 
Joe T said:
Corker said both sides in the Senate are now in a place, grounded in reality. "Let's face it. Republicans have overreached on the health-care bill," he said of the strategy of linking a delay in funding for Obamacare to an agreement on the debt ceiling. He said Democrats had been trying to "actually bust or break the budget control act, which is also settled law."
http://www.cnbc.com/id/101102554
Again, this is a misdirection. Let's go over the facts:

1. The continuing resolution (CR) which led to the government shutdown was supposed to be for 6 weeks. The Democrats agreed to the Republican budget for those 6 weeks, but never agreed to it long term. The Democrats wanted to discuss the sequester cuts; they had been demanding to go into conference to do so, and Boehner has been refusing this for months. That's why the CR was for such a short period, because at the end of it the Dems hoped to bring up the sequester again. Then the Republicans refused to pass even the 6 week CR, unless they got changes to Obamacare.

2. Now the Republicans have placed a new offer on the table; they will vote to extend the CR and the DL, but ONLY if the CR is extended not just for 6 weeks, but for nearly a year. The Dems naturally replied that if you guys want to extend the CR that long, then we need to immediately resolve this sequester issue, which we've been requesting to do all along. Again, it is not the Democrats who are insisting on new demands here. And it's the Republicans who continue to hold the government hostage unless they can get what they want.
So again, you are okay with the Democrats insisting on negotiating the sequester right now rather than raising the debt limit and potentially risking default?

The fact that it is "not new" is irrelevant. The Obamacare funding discussion is "not new" either. It doesn't mean we should risk default to have that discussion now because the republicans have been asking for it for months.

 
What exactly is the "sequester issue"?? Never understood this. It's law that went into effect because these morons couldn't agree on anything. So what's the actual "issue" here?
The Democrats are now demanding changes be made to that law before they raise the debt ceiling... according to the NY Times as I posted above.

 
jon_mx said:
So we are going to just endless extend our debt ceiling with no plan to stop our endless spiral into certain death. Simply brilliant. God I hate Washington.
This isn't like normal debt. This is gov't debt. It is basically meaningless.

 
jon_mx said:
So we are going to just endless extend our debt ceiling with no plan to stop our endless spiral into certain death. Simply brilliant. God I hate Washington.
Yes, the United States needs to start reigning in its debt to prepare for retirement one of these days. Does it think its earning capacity is going to be there forever?

 
What exactly is the "sequester issue"?? Never understood this. It's law that went into effect because these morons couldn't agree on anything. So what's the actual "issue" here?
1. Most Democrats hate the sequester cuts and want them eliminated.

2. Most moderate Democrats and moderate Republicans think they're stupid. If these cuts are going to happen, they should at least be targeted, rather than across the board.

3. Most Republicans don't like the cuts to the military that are part of the sequester.

So almost everyone wants to see some kind of change to these cuts.

 
Joe T said:
Corker said both sides in the Senate are now in a place, grounded in reality. "Let's face it. Republicans have overreached on the health-care bill," he said of the strategy of linking a delay in funding for Obamacare to an agreement on the debt ceiling. He said Democrats had been trying to "actually bust or break the budget control act, which is also settled law."
http://www.cnbc.com/id/101102554
Again, this is a misdirection. Let's go over the facts:

1. The continuing resolution (CR) which led to the government shutdown was supposed to be for 6 weeks. The Democrats agreed to the Republican budget for those 6 weeks, but never agreed to it long term. The Democrats wanted to discuss the sequester cuts; they had been demanding to go into conference to do so, and Boehner has been refusing this for months. That's why the CR was for such a short period, because at the end of it the Dems hoped to bring up the sequester again. Then the Republicans refused to pass even the 6 week CR, unless they got changes to Obamacare.

2. Now the Republicans have placed a new offer on the table; they will vote to extend the CR and the DL, but ONLY if the CR is extended not just for 6 weeks, but for nearly a year. The Dems naturally replied that if you guys want to extend the CR that long, then we need to immediately resolve this sequester issue, which we've been requesting to do all along. Again, it is not the Democrats who are insisting on new demands here. And it's the Republicans who continue to hold the government hostage unless they can get what they want.
So again, you are okay with the Democrats insisting on negotiating the sequester right now rather than raising the debt limit and potentially risking default?

The fact that it is "not new" is irrelevant. The Obamacare funding discussion is "not new" either. It doesn't mean we should risk default to have that discussion now because the republicans have been asking for it for months.
Have the Republicans offered to raise the debt ceiling with no conditions? Because if they did, the Democrats would not refuse. Therefore, all of your points are completely bogus.

 
What exactly is the "sequester issue"?? Never understood this. It's law that went into effect because these morons couldn't agree on anything. So what's the actual "issue" here?
The sequester was designed to be so awful for both sides that neither side would want to see it implemented.

The Republicans didn't like it because it left entitlement programs untouched (they weren't part of the deal) and it makes big cuts to defense.

The Dems don't like it because it included no new revenues and made deep cuts to everything else.

And the cuts are stupid -- blunt, across-the-board numbers without any discretion.

So one issue is that both sides would like to see 'smarter' cuts. Another issue is that Republicans want cuts to entitlements, which they can't get via the sequester. And another issue is that there are no new revenues.

Eventually you'll see the sequester replaced IMO. The obvious solution is to trade entitlement reform for additional revenues. The 'Grand Bargain' that people talk about. And when that happens the specific spending levels and cuts in the sequester will probably be revisited.

 
What exactly is the "sequester issue"?? Never understood this. It's law that went into effect because these morons couldn't agree on anything. So what's the actual "issue" here?
1. Most Democrats hate the sequester cuts and want them eliminated.

2. Most moderate Democrats and moderate Republicans think they're stupid. If these cuts are going to happen, they should at least be targeted, rather than across the board.

3. Most Republicans don't like the cuts to the military that are part of the sequester.

So almost everyone wants to see some kind of change to these cuts.
But they are law, yes? So they should be going through the proper channels to change the law as they are asking the republicans to. Would you agree with that?

 
jon_mx said:
So we are going to just endless extend our debt ceiling with no plan to stop our endless spiral into certain death. Simply brilliant. God I hate Washington.
This isn't like normal debt. This is gov't debt. It is basically meaningless.
Awesome. No need to raise the debt ceiling. We don't have to make any payments on our meaningless debt anymore.

 
What exactly is the "sequester issue"?? Never understood this. It's law that went into effect because these morons couldn't agree on anything. So what's the actual "issue" here?
The Democrats are now demanding changes be made to that law before they raise the debt ceiling... according to the NY Times as I posted above.
Can I get a "dem apologist" perspective on this??
Dems have said they aren't going to make concessions to get a clean CR and a clean debt limit bill.

But Republicans have said they have to get something -- politically they can't just completely surrender.

Dems are saying, 'OK -- we'll give you something, but we're going to get something beyond a clean debt limit and a clean CR in return since we're not making concessions just to get those.'

 
Have the Republicans offered to raise the debt ceiling with no conditions? Because if they did, the Democrats would not refuse. Therefore, all of your points are completely bogus.
The NY Times article (and others) disagree with you that the Democrats would not refuse to raise the debt ceiling with no conditions. So, all of my points are spot on.

With a possible default on government obligations just days away, Senate Democratic leaders — believing they have a political advantage in the continuing fiscal impasse — refused Sunday to sign on to any deal that reopens the government but locks in budget cuts for next year.
 
What exactly is the "sequester issue"?? Never understood this. It's law that went into effect because these morons couldn't agree on anything. So what's the actual "issue" here?
1. Most Democrats hate the sequester cuts and want them eliminated.

2. Most moderate Democrats and moderate Republicans think they're stupid. If these cuts are going to happen, they should at least be targeted, rather than across the board.

3. Most Republicans don't like the cuts to the military that are part of the sequester.

So almost everyone wants to see some kind of change to these cuts.
But they are law, yes? So they should be going through the proper channels to change the law as they are asking the republicans to. Would you agree with that?
Of course. And they've been trying to go through proper channels for months. That's why the current continuing resolution was so short. Now, however, in exchange for raising the debt ceiling and opening up the government, the Republicans are demanding a much longer continuing resolution which would lock the sequester in place for another year or so. That's why the Democrats are insisting that changes to the sequester should be part of that deal.

 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top