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Through the eyes of an economist and statistician, brady > manning (1 Viewer)

Phokus

Footballguy
Manning's playoff QB rating: 89.1

Brady's playoff QB rating: 89.4

On the surface, it would appear that each QB rating is nearly identical, giving brady a small sliver of adantage over Manning. However, if you look at the variance of QB ratings, you'll notice something striking. Brady's playoff rating range from 70.4 to 130.4 while Manning's QB rating range from 31.2 to 158.3. Based on that, Brady's QB rating is actually much more attractive than Manning's QB rating, even though it is only .3 points off. Even if Brady's QB rating were somewhat lower than Mannings (for argument's sake, say brady has a postseson QB rating of 82 to Manning's 89.1), Brady's performance would still be more desireable than Manning's. Because of Brady's small standard deviation, his performance is much more predictable and you can expect the Patriots to have a good chance to win every single game. On the flip side, Manning's standard deviation is much greater; he could pound a team into dust, or he could look like a high school QB playing a pro game... a very undesirable trait to have during playoffs. Also, if you look at Brady's/Manning's performance through the lenses of an economist, Brady also wins. All of Brady's QB ratings have much more marginal utility than Manning's does. If you add 1 QB rating point to each of Brady's performances, it'll have much more marginal utility to the team than if you added 1 QB rating point to Manning's performances, which does not necessarily help his team out that much. For example, ff you add 1 point to the games that Manning tanks, it probably doesn't affect the outcome... the same is true if you add 1 point to the games that Manning goes gangbusters on his opponent.

Getting back to standard deviation, I liken Brady's performance to that of a value stock that guys like Warren Buffet likes to buy: you'll get consistently good returns and when you cash out, you'll be a wealthy man. Manning, on the other hand, is like a high yield/high risk investment (say a junk bond or startup tech stock), you could see it fly through the roof one day and crash and burn the next... usually only fools purchase these types of investments.

 
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Thanks for your insite Phokus. As an College Econ Major what you say makes sense even if I couldn't have done it myself.

 
Manning's playoff QB rating: 89.1

Brady's playoff QB rating: 89.4

On the surface, it would appear that each QB rating is nearly identical, giving brady a small sliver of adantage over Manning. However, if you look at the variance of QB ratings, you'll notice something striking. Brady's playoff rating
 
Statistics are used to predict a certain outcome. Economics is the study of incentives. If you truly were both a statician and an economist, you would have post an accurate forecast for the ADP on each QB.

And you would have done so for each type of league format and all within a 95% confidence interval and....blah blah blah.

LISTEN...Manning has lead me to 2 divison championships and 1 superbowl victory in the past 2 years. And he is gonna make me some more $$$ this year.

You gotta remember -- like in the NFL and in FFL -- one player doesn't make the team. Anyone would do well to have either Brady or Manning calling plays for them.

So, you can keep your bowtie and your affinity for stats. I am not 'foolish' for having Peyton in my lineup.

 
I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but the fact that a statistician has come to the conclusion you have boggles my mind.

Statistics tell us that Brady has little effect on the Pats odds of winning a Super Bowl (this is statistics only mind you). I posted the numbers in another thread a while back, but the gist of is that there was almost no linear correlation between the success of Brady and the success of the team (Brady plays bad, Brady plays well, Brady plays mediocre all yield similar results) and a huge, huge linear relation between the success of the Patriots defense and the success of the Patriots (defense does bad and the Patriots don't do well, defense does well and the Patriots win Super Bowls).

Go ahead and run the numbers.

Meanwhile, the success of the Colts is tied in heavily to the success of Manning. I'm not trying to argue one way or the other but for someone to say that as a statistician it makes Brady look better is odd to me when the statistical tests suggest that Brady is just along for the ride.

 
I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but the fact that a statistician has come to the conclusion you have boggles my mind.Statistics tell us that Brady has little effect on the Pats odds of winning a Super Bowl (this is statistics only mind you). I posted the numbers in another thread a while back, but the gist of is that there was almost no linear correlation between the success of Brady and the success of the team (Brady plays bad, Brady plays well, Brady plays mediocre all yield similar results) and a huge, huge linear relation between the success of the Patriots defense and the success of the Patriots (defense does bad and the Patriots don't do well, defense does well and the Patriots win Super Bowls).Go ahead and run the numbers.Meanwhile, the success of the Colts is tied in heavily to the success of Manning. I'm not trying to argue one way or the other but for someone to say that as a statistician it makes Brady look better is odd to me when the statistical tests suggest that Brady is just along for the ride.
This is a great posting! :goodposting: The only hope the Colts have had in winning playoff games in the past has been on Manning's arm. And, even when he was very successful, the Colts couldn't win.I'm not saying Brady isn't great, just that Manning could be perfect and the Colts still lose in the playoffs with their defense.This is the very reason why people need to give the "Manning is a choker" line a rest.Brady wouldn't have won if put in Mannings place in Indy. Peyton would have won if in Brady's place.I do happen to think Belichick would have won if in Dungy's place, however.
 
There was a somewhat similar post this week (i'm too lazy to link to it, but you should be able to find it fairly easily) concerning RBs, and whether you'd rather have one with a larger SD (standard deviation) or a smaller SD.

the overarching question is whether constancy of performance is preferable to performance at the same average level, but with greater variability. in most cases, it is better to have the more consistent performer. this wouldn't be the case, however, if the average level of performance of the rest of the team was less than that of the more consistent performer. that is, if the average level of play for the rest of the colts was less than that of the rest of the pats, then you'd want to use a qb with a greater variance for the colts in order to have the overall team's level of play be above that of the pats. of course, with the exception of last year's trouncing of the pats by the colts, this isn't the outcome that occured, but the sample's pretty small (as it is in most football "tests" unlike baseball, where there are many more games played).

of course, my assumption that the average level of play of the rest of the pats being above that of the rest of the colts is debateable -- but i think that's the case.

just another economist's view of things (can you imagine two of us here!). scary.

 
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I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but the fact that a statistician has come to the conclusion you have boggles my mind.Statistics tell us that Brady has little effect on the Pats odds of winning a Super Bowl (this is statistics only mind you). I posted the numbers in another thread a while back, but the gist of is that there was almost no linear correlation between the success of Brady and the success of the team (Brady plays bad, Brady plays well, Brady plays mediocre all yield similar results) and a huge, huge linear relation between the success of the Patriots defense and the success of the Patriots (defense does bad and the Patriots don't do well, defense does well and the Patriots win Super Bowls).Go ahead and run the numbers.Meanwhile, the success of the Colts is tied in heavily to the success of Manning. I'm not trying to argue one way or the other but for someone to say that as a statistician it makes Brady look better is odd to me when the statistical tests suggest that Brady is just along for the ride.
This is a great posting! :goodposting: The only hope the Colts have had in winning playoff games in the past has been on Manning's arm. And, even when he was very successful, the Colts couldn't win.I'm not saying Brady isn't great, just that Manning could be perfect and the Colts still lose in the playoffs with their defense.This is the very reason why people need to give the "Manning is a choker" line a rest.Brady wouldn't have won if put in Mannings place in Indy. Peyton would have won if in Brady's place.I do happen to think Belichick would have won if in Dungy's place, however.
Manning wouldve won if he was in Bradys place? Thats assanine. Manning has played horrible in 90% of his playoff games and his performance had nothing to do with the defense. Manning couldnt win big games in college, he cant win big games now. What makes you think that if he were on NE that miraculously he would be able to win? he plays horrible in big games no matter where he is at.
 
The past is the past, live in the present. Manning is better than Brady today, that there is no doubt.

Also, Brady has probably the best coach in the league while Manning has Dungy.

HTH

 
The only hope the Colts have had in winning playoff games in the past has been on Manning's arm. And, even when he was very successful, the Colts couldn't win.
This is a silly comment. Even in playoff games were the Colts D played well they still lost. In almost every single playoff elimination game Manning had his worst or one of his worst games of the year and really did not play great in any Colt elimination game.
 
Mmen of Steel said:
Statistics are used to predict a certain outcome. Economics is the study of incentives. If you truly were both a statician and an economist, you would have post an accurate forecast for the ADP on each QB.

And you would have done so for each type of league format and all within a 95% confidence interval and....blah blah blah.

LISTEN...Manning has lead me to 2 divison championships and 1 superbowl victory in the past 2 years. And he is gonna make me some more $$$ this year.

You gotta remember -- like in the NFL and in FFL -- one player doesn't make the team. Anyone would do well to have either Brady or Manning calling plays for them.

So, you can keep your bowtie and your affinity for stats. I am not 'foolish' for having Peyton in my lineup.
that's what i was expecting when i saw the title... something about ADP... but i don't think this guy is even talking about FF, seeing as he's talking about post season successso chill

 
Buttmonkey said:
The past is the past, live in the present. Manning is better than Brady today, that there is no doubt.

Also, Brady has probably the best coach in the league while Manning has Dungy.

HTH
I don't know about that. IMHO these are the best 2 QB's in the league by far and I don't beleive you can clearly state one is better than the other. They are both very accurate, they are both poised and there isn't a throw neither QB can't make. I think when you rate these 2 you can easily say it's 1 and 1A and I would would be very happy to have either guy. I'm tired of hearing Brady has a better coach arrgument also this game is really simple coaches coach and players play so I don't care who is on the sideline if the players are not perfroming and executing then they won't have sucess. Throw the stats out the window and just enjoy history in the making that we get to watch every week.
 
Ryan_21 said:
pizzatyme said:
FreeBaGeL said:
I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but the fact that a statistician has come to the conclusion you have boggles my mind.Statistics tell us that Brady has little effect on the Pats odds of winning a Super Bowl (this is statistics only mind you). I posted the numbers in another thread a while back, but the gist of is that there was almost no linear correlation between the success of Brady and the success of the team (Brady plays bad, Brady plays well, Brady plays mediocre all yield similar results) and a huge, huge linear relation between the success of the Patriots defense and the success of the Patriots (defense does bad and the Patriots don't do well, defense does well and the Patriots win Super Bowls).Go ahead and run the numbers.Meanwhile, the success of the Colts is tied in heavily to the success of Manning. I'm not trying to argue one way or the other but for someone to say that as a statistician it makes Brady look better is odd to me when the statistical tests suggest that Brady is just along for the ride.
This is a great posting! :goodposting: The only hope the Colts have had in winning playoff games in the past has been on Manning's arm. And, even when he was very successful, the Colts couldn't win.I'm not saying Brady isn't great, just that Manning could be perfect and the Colts still lose in the playoffs with their defense.This is the very reason why people need to give the "Manning is a choker" line a rest.Brady wouldn't have won if put in Mannings place in Indy. Peyton would have won if in Brady's place.I do happen to think Belichick would have won if in Dungy's place, however.
Manning wouldve won if he was in Bradys place? Thats assanine. Manning has played horrible in 90% of his playoff games and his performance had nothing to do with the defense. Manning couldnt win big games in college, he cant win big games now. What makes you think that if he were on NE that miraculously he would be able to win? he plays horrible in big games no matter where he is at.
Wow, so you don't give any value to knowing you have a great defense behind you with the ability to shorten the field and give you turnovers as having helped Brady? And, in kind, it wouldn't have helped Manning? Plus the value of having one of the best coaches EVER with you?Now, my friend, that would be an assanine assumption!
 
menobrown said:
pizzatyme said:
The only hope the Colts have had in winning playoff games in the past has been on Manning's arm. And, even when he was very successful, the Colts couldn't win.
This is a silly comment. Even in playoff games were the Colts D played well they still lost. In almost every single playoff elimination game Manning had his worst or one of his worst games of the year and really did not play great in any Colt elimination game.
Really? Here is some information from the 2003 playoff season for you to chew on...

Manning and the Colts put an emphatic halt to talk they could not win the "big one", rolling over the Denver Broncos 41-10. They then defeated the Kansas City Chiefs, at Kansas City, 38-31. In those two games Manning threw eight touchdowns with no interceptions.

Both of these games were "single elimination playoff games. I guess you might have forgotten these games in your analysis?!

Manning did have a subpar game on the road the following week AT Foxboro by throwing 1 ED and 4 picks in a 24-14 loss.

Source for some history.

 
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Finless said:
Just made a 5 am decision to sit Peyton and play Brady. This post had nothing to do with my decision. I grew up just outside of Foxboro and have been a Pats fan since birth. I can not in good conscience root for Peyton tomorrow night. It's hard enough to root for him to score for me the rest of the season. It may cost me my game but more likely it won't. I do not see Payton throwing the lights out tomorrow. I've seen him play the Pats live on a few occasions (love the close ups on the big screen with that confused look in his face) and with the exception of last year's anomaly Peyton tends to get flustered by the Pats. A lot of people are picking the Colts here. Did I miss the memo or something? The Colts are not working with the same firepower they posessed last year or the last 5 years for that matter. Minor threadjack...apologies.To a Pats Victory :banned:
last year down?
 
FreeBaGeL said:
Statistics tell us that Brady has little effect on the Pats odds of winning a Super Bowl (this is statistics only mind you). I posted the numbers in another thread a while back, but the gist of is that there was almost no linear correlation between the success of Brady and the success of the team (Brady plays bad, Brady plays well, Brady plays mediocre all yield similar results) and a huge, huge linear relation between the success of the Patriots defense and the success of the Patriots (defense does bad and the Patriots don't do well, defense does well and the Patriots win Super Bowls).Go ahead and run the numbers.
OK. Try this for correlation, although I do not care for the passer effeciency rating stat. NE is 34-1 historically when Brady posts a rating over 100.
 
Phokus said:
Manning's playoff QB rating: 89.1Brady's playoff QB rating: 89.4Getting back to standard deviation, I liken Brady's performance to that of a value stock that guys like Warren Buffet likes to buy: you'll get consistently good returns and when you cash out, you'll be a wealthy man. Manning, on the other hand, is like a high yield/high risk investment (say a junk bond or startup tech stock), you could see it fly through the roof one day and crash and burn the next... usually only fools purchase these types of investments.
I just want to point out that this stock analogy doesn't make sense. If stock A has the same average return as stock B, but B is more volatile, it's not dumb at all to purchase stock B. At the end of 10 years you may have had more ups and downs with stock B, but you wind up with the same amount of money. So why is that a foolish pick?The reason you would want the QB with less of a standard deviation is because unlike in the stock market, performance isn't cumulative over time. Doing really well in one game doesn't help you at all in the next.
 
menobrown said:
pizzatyme said:
The only hope the Colts have had in winning playoff games in the past has been on Manning's arm. And, even when he was very successful, the Colts couldn't win.
This is a silly comment. Even in playoff games were the Colts D played well they still lost. In almost every single playoff elimination game Manning had his worst or one of his worst games of the year and really did not play great in any Colt elimination game.
:goodposting: :goodposting: :goodposting: In Manning's 3 playoff wins, they never trailed, meaning he has yet to overcome any kind of deficit in a playoff game. So, it seems simple. Get a lead on Manning and the Colts in the playoffs and you will win. As for the defense always being the reason they lose in the playoffs, his playoff losses have been by scores of:19-1623-1741-024-1420-321-18That means in 6 playoffs losses, Manning and the Colts offense has averaged 11 points a game. 11!Also, in those 6 losses, the defense has given up an average of 25 points a game. If you take away the 41-0 gouge, in the other 5 losses, they are giving up 22 points a game. That is not that great, but it is awful, either.
 
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menobrown said:
pizzatyme said:
The only hope the Colts have had in winning playoff games in the past has been on Manning's arm. And, even when he was very successful, the Colts couldn't win.
This is a silly comment. Even in playoff games were the Colts D played well they still lost. In almost every single playoff elimination game Manning had his worst or one of his worst games of the year and really did not play great in any Colt elimination game.
Really? Here is some information from the 2003 playoff season for you to chew on...

Manning and the Colts put an emphatic halt to talk they could not win the "big one", rolling over the Denver Broncos 41-10. They then defeated the Kansas City Chiefs, at Kansas City, 38-31. In those two games Manning threw eight touchdowns with no interceptions.

Both of these games were "single elimination playoff games. I guess you might have forgotten these games in your analysis?!

Manning did have a subpar game on the road the following week AT Foxboro by throwing 1 ED and 4 picks in a 24-14 loss.

Source for some history.
Any other words or phrases you'd like to change before attacking them?
 
FreeBaGeL said:
I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but the fact that a statistician has come to the conclusion you have boggles my mind.Statistics tell us that Brady has little effect on the Pats odds of winning a Super Bowl (this is statistics only mind you). I posted the numbers in another thread a while back, but the gist of is that there was almost no linear correlation between the success of Brady and the success of the team (Brady plays bad, Brady plays well, Brady plays mediocre all yield similar results) and a huge, huge linear relation between the success of the Patriots defense and the success of the Patriots (defense does bad and the Patriots don't do well, defense does well and the Patriots win Super Bowls).Go ahead and run the numbers.Meanwhile, the success of the Colts is tied in heavily to the success of Manning. I'm not trying to argue one way or the other but for someone to say that as a statistician it makes Brady look better is odd to me when the statistical tests suggest that Brady is just along for the ride.
Here's a question for you. Manning hasn't really had a stud defense all that often. If the Colts did, perhaps their outcomes wouldn't rely on his performance as much. Your data could be reflecting that Manning has no-one to pick him up when he does poorly.
 
FreeBaGeL said:
I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but the fact that a statistician has come to the conclusion you have boggles my mind.

Statistics tell us that Brady has little effect on the Pats odds of winning a Super Bowl (this is statistics only mind you). I posted the numbers in another thread a while back, but the gist of is that there was almost no linear correlation between the success of Brady and the success of the team (Brady plays bad, Brady plays well, Brady plays mediocre all yield similar results) and a huge, huge linear relation between the success of the Patriots defense and the success of the Patriots (defense does bad and the Patriots don't do well, defense does well and the Patriots win Super Bowls).

Go ahead and run the numbers.

Meanwhile, the success of the Colts is tied in heavily to the success of Manning. I'm not trying to argue one way or the other but for someone to say that as a statistician it makes Brady look better is odd to me when the statistical tests suggest that Brady is just along for the ride.
Here's a question for you. Manning hasn't really had a stud defense all that often. If the Colts did, perhaps their outcomes wouldn't rely on his performance as much. Your data could be reflecting that Manning has no-one to pick him up when he does poorly.
I think that's the point.
 
Finless said:
Just made a 5 am decision to sit Peyton and play Brady. This post had nothing to do with my decision. I grew up just outside of Foxboro and have been a Pats fan since birth. I can not in good conscience root for Peyton tomorrow night. It's hard enough to root for him to score for me the rest of the season. It may cost me my game but more likely it won't. I do not see Payton throwing the lights out tomorrow. I've seen him play the Pats live on a few occasions (love the close ups on the big screen with that confused look in his face) and with the exception of last year's anomaly Peyton tends to get flustered by the Pats. A lot of people are picking the Colts here. Did I miss the memo or something? The Colts are not working with the same firepower they posessed last year or the last 5 years for that matter. Minor threadjack...apologies.To a Pats Victory :banned:
Oops. Let that be a lesson. Manning > Brady (fantasy wise for sure). Time will tell for historical reasons.Oh, and never make decisions at 5 freaking AM - see what it lead you to do.Have a nice day.
 
As an economist, how are you adjusting the analysis for the incredibly small sample size, statistically speaking?

 
As an economist, how are you adjusting the analysis for the incredibly small sample size, statistically speaking?
Phokus is an economist and a statistician has work for some backwards 4th-world country.I didn't know they played FFL in Kazakstan. Maybe Borat is his commissioner ???If anything,Manning is setting a new trend analysis (past 2 games vs. NE). It is no longer significant to compare all Peyton/Brady matchups (8 games).We can see this in Peyton's pass attempts, where n>30
 
As an economist, how are you adjusting the analysis for the incredibly small sample size, statistically speaking?
Phokus is an economist and a statistician has work for some backwards 4th-world country.I didn't know they played FFL in Kazakstan. Maybe Borat is his commissioner ???If anything,Manning is setting a new trend analysis (past 2 games vs. NE). It is no longer significant to compare all Peyton/Brady matchups (8 games).We can see this in Peyton's pass attempts, where n>30
 

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