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Tiki Barber v S JAckson (1 Viewer)

sjdogs

Footballguy
Sitting at the 4 spot and deciding between these two. I know this and similiar decisions have been discussed ad nauseum but wtf. I like tiki bc he is a safe pick on a good team with a nice Defense. TIki loses Goal LIne tds which drives me crazy. He is 31 and coming off two huge seasons.

Jackson concerns me bc of the foot injury and his history. New system but he is a 23 year old beast waiting to break out. I dont mind much they didnt score a first team td all preseason, but i wonder if his upside is worth tikis consistency.

THoughts please

 
Sitting at the 4 spot and deciding between these two. I know this and similiar decisions have been discussed ad nauseum but wtf. I like tiki bc he is a safe pick on a good team with a nice Defense. TIki loses Goal LIne tds which drives me crazy. He is 31 and coming off two huge seasons. Jackson concerns me bc of the foot injury and his history. New system but he is a 23 year old beast waiting to break out. I dont mind much they didnt score a first team td all preseason, but i wonder if his upside is worth tikis consistency.THoughts please
I've got the same pick later today (4th-non ppr) and I'm 99% sure I'm taking Rudi Johnson over both. No real concrete reason why, it's just a gut decision.
 
barber looks phenominal so far in preseason..he's going to have a shot at leading the NFL in rushing..

I'd rank them as follows:

Barber

Rudi

Ron Brown

S. Jackson

I'd take Ronnie Brown over S. Jackson...easier run-schedule for Miami, better O-line, no goalline ball-hawk on the roster to grab tds away from Brown,either, unlike Jackson with Moe Williams and Tony Fisher..

just my $.02

 
Too many issues cloud Jackson to warrant him over Tiki, IMO. Does a sudden breakdown with Tiki frighten me? Certainly, but passing on him is a great way to get shot in the foot.

The Giants have an offense that can move tha ball, and a defense to keep it close. The Rams defense is abysmal and they'll be playing from behind regardless how much the new staff says they'll run Jax. Jackson still runs smaller and slower than he is and that terrible run blocking line isnt going to give him any incentive to change the tap dancing routine we see in the backfield. He seems to get dinged a lot even on light duty.

All things considered, I dont see him having a much better season than Tiki regardless what happens - barring injury.

 
Sitting at the 4 spot and deciding between these two. I know this and similiar decisions have been discussed ad nauseum but wtf. I like tiki bc he is a safe pick on a good team with a nice Defense. TIki loses Goal LIne tds which drives me crazy. He is 31 and coming off two huge seasons. Jackson concerns me bc of the foot injury and his history. New system but he is a 23 year old beast waiting to break out. I dont mind much they didnt score a first team td all preseason, but i wonder if his upside is worth tikis consistency.THoughts please
I've got the same pick later today (4th-non ppr) and I'm 99% sure I'm taking Rudi Johnson over both. No real concrete reason why, it's just a gut decision.
I lied...that 1% chance I gave came true. I took S.Jackson in our 10-man non-ppr redraft this morning.First round is almost complete (drafting via internet) and it looked like this:1.1 L.Johnson1.2 LT1.3 S.Alexander1.4 S.Jackson (me)1.5 E.James :shock: 1.6 T.Barber1.7 C.Portis1.8 R.Johnson1.9 R.Brown1.10----on the clockNo huge shockers except I think Edge was a reach at 1.5. True to form RB's are flying off the block the first round. I'm looking at a #1 WR for my 2nd pick. (Holt, L.Fitz, T.O, C.Johnson) If i'm not comfortable with who's there on my pick I'll probably go C.Taylor or W.Dunn. Or I might just reach for R.Bush here. :yes:
 
Tiki at 4 is to much of a chance IMO....to much Brandon Jacobs and his age are to much to worry about. Jackson seems like the logical choice to follow the big 3 with his age, skills, experience & offense. Ronnie Brown has upside but he is unproven for a 16 game NFL schedule.

 
Sitting at the 4 spot and deciding between these two. I know this and similiar decisions have been discussed ad nauseum but wtf. I like tiki bc he is a safe pick on a good team with a nice Defense. TIki loses Goal LIne tds which drives me crazy. He is 31 and coming off two huge seasons. Jackson concerns me bc of the foot injury and his history. New system but he is a 23 year old beast waiting to break out. I dont mind much they didnt score a first team td all preseason, but i wonder if his upside is worth tikis consistency.THoughts please
I've got the same pick later today (4th-non ppr) and I'm 99% sure I'm taking Rudi Johnson over both. No real concrete reason why, it's just a gut decision.
I lied...that 1% chance I gave came true. I took S.Jackson in our 10-man non-ppr redraft this morning.First round is almost complete (drafting via internet) and it looked like this:1.1 L.Johnson1.2 LT1.3 S.Alexander1.4 S.Jackson (me)1.5 E.James :shock: 1.6 T.Barber1.7 C.Portis1.8 R.Johnson1.9 R.Brown1.10----on the clockNo huge shockers except I think Edge was a reach at 1.5. True to form RB's are flying off the block the first round. I'm looking at a #1 WR for my 2nd pick. (Holt, L.Fitz, T.O, C.Johnson) If i'm not comfortable with who's there on my pick I'll probably go C.Taylor or W.Dunn. Or I might just reach for R.Bush here. :yes:
You don't think Portis was a shocker? :confused:
 
Sitting at the 4 spot and deciding between these two. I know this and similiar decisions have been discussed ad nauseum but wtf. I like tiki bc he is a safe pick on a good team with a nice Defense. TIki loses Goal LIne tds which drives me crazy. He is 31 and coming off two huge seasons. Jackson concerns me bc of the foot injury and his history. New system but he is a 23 year old beast waiting to break out. I dont mind much they didnt score a first team td all preseason, but i wonder if his upside is worth tikis consistency.THoughts please
I've got the same pick later today (4th-non ppr) and I'm 99% sure I'm taking Rudi Johnson over both. No real concrete reason why, it's just a gut decision.
I lied...that 1% chance I gave came true. I took S.Jackson in our 10-man non-ppr redraft this morning.First round is almost complete (drafting via internet) and it looked like this:1.1 L.Johnson1.2 LT1.3 S.Alexander1.4 S.Jackson (me)1.5 E.James :shock: 1.6 T.Barber1.7 C.Portis1.8 R.Johnson1.9 R.Brown1.10----on the clockNo huge shockers except I think Edge was a reach at 1.5. True to form RB's are flying off the block the first round. I'm looking at a #1 WR for my 2nd pick. (Holt, L.Fitz, T.O, C.Johnson) If i'm not comfortable with who's there on my pick I'll probably go C.Taylor or W.Dunn. Or I might just reach for R.Bush here. :yes:
You don't think Portis was a shocker? :confused:
You mean he was drafted too early or too late?? He was a solid #4 before the shoulder and addition of Duckett. He's supposedly going to play the first week, so the addition of Duckett was the main reason he dropped a couple of spots. He was drafted right about where I thought he would be.ps. I got Holt in the 2nd and Westbrook in the 3rd
 
Tiki at 4 is to much of a chance IMO....to much Brandon Jacobs and his age are to much to worry about.
I don't really get this. All of these things were issues last year, too, and look what happened.
They were issues 2 years ago when the guy couldnt find the endzone if he drove there.
Two years ago would be 2004 when Tiki had 2096 total yards and 15 TD's. (beat me to it)I would love to see the projects for Tiki and Jacobs from all that are calling for a Tiki breakdown or a Jacobs break out.
 
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#4 pick in a redraft this weekend. I already have SJax as my #1RB in one of my other leagues. I don't want two teams relying on SJax so it's between Ronnie, Tiki and Rudi. I am 65% sure I'm going with Rudi. If I can get a pretty sure thing of a top 10 rb at pick 4(barring injury of course), I have to take it.

 
Tiki at 4 is to much of a chance IMO....to much Brandon Jacobs and his age are to much to worry about.
I don't really get this. All of these things were issues last year, too, and look what happened.
They were issues 2 years ago when the guy couldnt find the endzone if he drove there.
:confused: 2004

Barber, Tiki RB NYG Rush 322/1518/13 TD Rec 52/578/2TD 299.0 FPS
You know what I'm talking about. Since Nigel said last year, I didnt want to say "three years ago". Draft wise it was two years ago.
 
I took Jackson at that spot over the weekend though I wasn't thrilled with it. Didn't like picking out of the 4 spot at all because everything after the 3 big dogs is a crap shoot. I seriously thought about Peyton for about 30 seconds since he is sure points but I just couldn't bring myself to do it.

The reason I ended up taking Jackson was because I like the fact that he is young, there is really nobody to take carries from him and I just have gut feeling that he will have at least a mini-breakout season this year and at least be in the top 10.

 
Tiki at 4 is to much of a chance IMO....to much Brandon Jacobs and his age are to much to worry about.
I don't really get this. All of these things were issues last year, too, and look what happened.
They were issues 2 years ago when the guy couldnt find the endzone if he drove there.
:confused: 2004

Barber, Tiki RB NYG Rush 322/1518/13 TD Rec 52/578/2TD 299.0 FPS
You know what I'm talking about. Since Nigel said last year, I didnt want to say "three years ago". Draft wise it was two years ago.
You're referring to the 2004 draft coming off the 2003 season.That's an entirely different era of Giants football: Jim Fassel, Kerry Collins, awful defense, suspect O.Line

Think back to the Steelers of 2003 with Tommy Maddox and Amos Zerouoe as starters for a comparison. (Just to point out that things change a lot in the span of three seasons.)

 
Tiki at 4 is to much of a chance IMO....to much Brandon Jacobs and his age are to much to worry about.
I don't really get this. All of these things were issues last year, too, and look what happened.
They were issues 2 years ago when the guy couldnt find the endzone if he drove there.
:confused: 2004

Barber, Tiki RB NYG Rush 322/1518/13 TD Rec 52/578/2TD 299.0 FPS
You know what I'm talking about. Since Nigel said last year, I didnt want to say "three years ago". Draft wise it was two years ago.
You're referring to the 2004 draft coming off the 2003 season.That's an entirely different era of Giants football: Jim Fassel, Kerry Collins, awful defense, suspect O.Line

Think back to the Steelers of 2003 with Tommy Maddox and Amos Zerouoe as starters for a comparison. (Just to point out that things change a lot in the span of three seasons.)
Yep. Amazing that a guy has to take more than half his career to take off from merely serviceable to a machine. There are tons like him, and tons that would have been worse had they not had a great supporting cast. Thats the footballs.
 
I took Jackson at that spot over the weekend though I wasn't thrilled with it. Didn't like picking out of the 4 spot at all because everything after the 3 big dogs is a crap shoot. I seriously thought about Peyton for about 30 seconds since he is sure points but I just couldn't bring myself to do it.The reason I ended up taking Jackson was because I like the fact that he is young, there is really nobody to take carries from him and I just have gut feeling that he will have at least a mini-breakout season this year and at least be in the top 10.
I can understand choosing Jackson over Tiki, but if you're basing it on being "at least top 10" then I think the safer choice is Tiki.In 2005, the #10 RB scored just over 200 FP (FBG style).In ppg, the #10 RB scored 14.12 ppg (x 16 = 226 points). As you can see, a few RBs could not stay healthy throughout the course of the season. Still, let's take the average of these two values, 213 points.Tiki had 2390 combined yards last year. A reduction of 25% across the board would see him at 1797 yards, or just shy of 180 points. Tiki had 11 TDs last year, or 66 points. Cut that total in half and you have 33 points.Combine the two totals and you have 213 points, likely a top 10 RB.My conclusion is that 2005 likely was Tiki's career year and chances are he will decline some in 2006. However, Tiki can see his yardage total drop by a quarter and his TD total cut in half and STILL be a top 10 RB. That's a pretty good safety net.Not to say Jackson or Rudi or Ronnie Brown should not be considered, but it's hard to argue that these players carry lesser risk. I'd put Tiki and Rudi as having the highest floor at RB once we get past LJ/SA/LT.
 
I like your post Jerk, you make some very good points. I think his age, lack of goal line attempts and schedule(NFC East) lower him on my list. At 4, you need to go with someone who has a high floor, Rudi and Tiki are great choices. If it appears Clinton could be ready for week 1, should he get similar consideration that Tiki is getting?

 
I like your post Jerk, you make some very good points. I think his age, lack of goal line attempts and schedule(NFC East) lower him on my list. At 4, you need to go with someone who has a high floor, Rudi and Tiki are great choices. If it appears Clinton could be ready for week 1, should he get similar consideration that Tiki is getting?
From the Redskins HC Gibbs says RB Portis ahead of schedule, coach speak? thread:
Barber has missed only two of his past 128 games and six out of 144 for his career.

While I think chronological age does matter, I think workload matters even more.

Contrast Barber with James and Tomlinson.

Chronological age as of September 2006:

Barber 31 yr 5 mo

James 28 yr 1 mo

LT 27 yr 2 mo

Combined number of regular season rushes and receptions:

James 2544 over 96 games (26.50 touches per game)

Barber 2417 over 138 games (17.52 touches per game)

LT 2044 over 79 games (25.87 touches per game)

Another way to look at it is that Barber has only had the punishing workload of a full feature back for the past four seasons:

Barber's touches:

1997-2001 629 rushes and 284 receptions in 74 games (12.34 touches per game)

2002-2005 1260 rushes and 244 receptions in 64 games (23.50 touches per game)

Finally, consider that 2005 was Barber's busiest year.

In 16 games, 357 rushes and 54 receptions = 411 touches (25.69 touches per game)

So even in Barber's busiest single season, he averaged fewer touches per game than both Edge and LT have FOR THEIR ENTIRE CAREER.

Any player can get hurt, but it's stats like these that suggest Barber is a young 31 (and that Edge is an old 28).
Later I added:
Fantastic posts Jerk. Surely the actual age of Barber plays some role in your analysis, correct? How much weight do you give Barbers 31 year old body in your analysis?

And as you noted, Barber is coming off by far the two biggest workload seasons of his career, and he doesn't have the size of the Edge or LT2. Doesn't this entail added risk?
I face a draft next week where I am 99% likely to be forced to choose between S.Jax and Tiki. I keep trying to find reasons to take Jackson, but what more does Barber need to do before you realize that he is a pretty good RB?As I said in my previous post, chronological age does matter. Healing takes a little longer, reflexes very slowly start to diminish, etc. However, it's hard to quantify how much impact this has on the likelihood of injury and lesser performance. Another factor is how well an individual athlete takes care of his body through nutrition, exercise and lifestyle. By all accounts, Tiki is exemplary in all aspects.

As far as size is concerned, his comparatively small stature may actually play a role in helping him to avoid more direct hits similar to Barry Sanders. Watching Bettis in Pittsburgh all these years makes it very clear that the bigger back can dish out more punishment, but he also takes more punishment. For comparison, I expect LJ will be hard-pressed to last as long as Tiki if he doesn't adjust his style as he ages.

I'm mildly concerned by Barber coming off four consecutive high workload seasons, but my biggest concern is actually that 2005 was almost certainly his career peak. Yet he can drop off 20-25% across the board and likely finish Top 6 again in 2006. Sometimes you can overanalyze this stuff. Every year people try to get the next big thing instead of taking the boring, proven pick. I'm pretty sure there are no points for originality or degree of difficulty in FF. It's usually yards and TDs that matter most.
Adding Portis to the mix...25 years 0 months

1399 touches in 60 games (23.32 touches per game)

Another way of looking at this is while Tiki is considerably older in terms of chronological age, in the five seasons prior to Portis' arrival in 2002, Tiki only had half the workload (12.34 touches per game) of a "workhorse" running back.

Since Portis arrived in the NFL:

Portis has 1258 rushes and 141 receptions in 60 games (23.32 touches per game)

Barber has 1260 rushes and 244 receptions in 64 games (23.50 touches per game)

Which running back played all 64 regular sesaon games from 2002-2005?

Old Man Barber

Which running back missed four regular sesaon games?

Young Pup Portis

(NOTE: All stats taken from FBG's player pages. My spreadsheet calculations could include errors.)

As you can tell, I don't mind running the numbers. Yet no amount of research can guarantee anything about any RB. This research makes me feel significantly more comfortable drafting Barber over Portis in 2006 redraft leagues. If you don't think it's relevant, than absolutely go another direction.
 
I like your post Jerk, you make some very good points. I think his age, lack of goal line attempts and schedule(NFC East) lower him on my list. At 4, you need to go with someone who has a high floor, Rudi and Tiki are great choices. If it appears Clinton could be ready for week 1, should he get similar consideration that Tiki is getting?
I'm not overly concerned about Tiki's schedule this year. Note that Clayton Gray's 2006 RB SoS projects:

18.5 FP per game for Miami (R.Brown)

16.9 FP per game for NYG (T.Barber)

16.4 FP per game for St. Louis (S.Jackson)

But... look at Weeks 14-16 for playoff matchups:

Miami: 20.2 19.9 22.0 VERY GOOD

NYG: 19.0 19.2 23.0 GOOD, only 0.3 ppg less than Miami, so nearly very good

StL: 17.7 14.4 14.1 :X

Based on schedule, I'm not downgrading Tiki vs. Jackson.

And as my following recycled post shows, Tiki handled a tough second half schedule in 2005 with aplomb.

From the What to do with the freaking 4 pick in the next week!, Ideas -- no recent good news on Portis. thread:

Tiki's floor is lower than you speculate, IMO. His last two years with the heavy workload are noted, but I think Tiki is more likely to put up '03 numbers than '05 numbers, and anticipate Brown having more total yards and TDs than Tiki.
That's why we play the game. It would be boring if we all thought alike. I can see Brown having more TDs, but I can't see him having more yards. Two reasons:1. Miami is being overhyped due to winning their final 6 games last year. They won 4 of those games by a combined 9 points. Three of the victories were against 4-12 teams, one vs. 5-11, one vs. the Patriots who basically lost on purpose. Their only quality win was at San Diego, who was arguably looking ahead to the undefeated Cotls in the very next game.

2. The Giants in 2003 were an absolute mess. Jason Wood reminded me of the problems the Giants had on the offense (especially the OL), on defense, and Jim Fassel, Kerry Collins, etc. They are clearly a better team now coming off a division championship and once again a playoff contender.

I'm all for trying to pick emerging players. You can get into trouble relying too much on last year's stats. But I prefer to target the breakthrough players a little bit later than the first five picks of the draft.
Good points. Using the #4 overall pick on a RB with 900 career rushing yards is somewhat of a role of the dice. You point out the Phins relatively easy schedule in the 2nd half of '05. This year's schedule is even softer, and the Giants schedule is brutal. Another edge to Brown.

It will be interesting to see where the RBs fall in line this year. After this discussion, I'm convinced it will be SJax and Jordan following the big 3, with Tiki and Brown outside of the top 15. :D
Just for fun, tgunz...According to Clayton Gray's SoS projections, Miami expects to see 4.2% easier rushing defenses while the NYG expect to face 1.6% more difficult rushing defenses. Edge to R.Brown. Over the playoff weeks 14-16, the advantage is extremely small -- very slight edge to Brown.

Now I get to the fun part.

In their final 8 games of last season, the Giants opponents had a combined 2005 record of 67-61 (.523 pct.). Their 2006 opponents had a combined 2005 record of 139-117 (.543 pct.).

The Dolphins equivalent numbers are: 52-76 to conclude 2005 (.406), and 120-136 for 2006 (.469).

The Giants 2006 opponents are .020 pct. better than they were to conclude 2005.

The Dolphins opponents are .063 pct. points better in 2006 than they were to conclude 2005.

Recall that Tiki averaged 22 FBG ppg during the final 8 games of 2005.

Brown averaged 7.5 FBG ppg during the final 8 games of 2005.

So after those initial small edges to Brown, the remaining analysis shows very large edges to Tiki.

I'll readily admit that these statistics are almost completely irrelevant to the 2006 draft. Yet they do point out that Barber did quite well against nearly the same level of competition the Giants expect to face in 2006. Brown of course was splitting time with Ricky, but you need to triple his numbers to get to the same production level as Tiki. And the teams Brown faces in 2006 will be stronger than the teams he faced in the second half of 2005.

But for even doing this analysis in the first place... :bag: (I definitely need to get out more)
 
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