Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
Tom Brady's "SuperPower" - Mental Speed (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Joe Bryant
- Start date
I'm interested to see how the game moves. As he said, it seems ike it used to be more focused this way with the guys like Brady, Manning and Brees where their mental game was the strong point. It's shifted now with more mobile QBs and some of the physical game is their strong point. Obviously, both is best and it's not necessarily an either/or situation.
Last edited:
ProstheticRGK
Footballguy
I have wondered how much of that is inmate ability versus not having been taught properly.
Innate ability: Jalen Hurts, for example, can read man-to-man coverage and exploit that. Any zone reads, especially with sim pressure or exotic blitzes and he seems to take an eztra beat to make the read, ends up scrambling and taking bad sacks. Some people just have didferent levels of spatial awareness and are just freakishly good at it. Some aren’t.
Coaching: look at the resurgence of Baker Mayfield and Sam Darnold. You put them on a team with strong leadership and good coaching and look at the difference it makes.
Agreed. It's the age old nature vs nurture thing.
For NFL QBs, I think it's like most things - some of both. The smartest guy in the world can't do it if he doesn't have some of the physical traits. And the most physical guy in the world can't do it without some of the mental traits.
And for sure, guys like Sam Darnold are a great example of the situation matters. Some of that's O'Connell and staff of course and some of that's weapons.
But we've seen plenty of that in the past. Jared Goff with Jeff Fisher vs McVay and such.
That would also probably make for an interesting thread @ProstheticRGK if you wanted to start one.
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
The physical is so much easier to measure and see I can't blame teams for taking a chance on an athlete and hoping he can grow mentally with the right coaching and situation. But the mental aspect is what sets a guy like Mahomes apart from the rest of the current crop post Brady. Daniels looks like the most likely to be the next one, but he probably needs to bulk up a little physically if he wants to survive.
The mental aspect of any sport is often overlooked
But often separates really good players from superstars
Brady talking about what he sees when looks at a defense
You hear about basketball superstars like Magic and Bird "seeing" the whole court
Gretzky used to talk about seeing what was going to happen BEFORE it happened
Interesting case study for someone far above my pay grade
But often separates really good players from superstars
Brady talking about what he sees when looks at a defense
You hear about basketball superstars like Magic and Bird "seeing" the whole court
Gretzky used to talk about seeing what was going to happen BEFORE it happened
Interesting case study for someone far above my pay grade
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Having watched almost every snap Brady took in NE, I got pretty good at deciphering what they were going to do each play based on their pre-snap movement. I'm surprised other teams couldn't pick up on it . . . but who knows if NE would have had a counter to that as well (or if they could have switched up a defensive play call on the fly).
Over the years, I've heard interviews with tons of players and coaches from NE, and the complexity of their offense (to me) was crazy. Their receivers were all tasked with hot reads, where literally each step they took during a play they had to react to what the defense was doing. The receivers all had assignments to read at every level, and ultimately they knew exactly where the ball was going to be thrown and would turn and it would be there. The biggest mind meld was with Edelman. Welker was great at it too, but I think Welker had the benefit of other receiving targets drawing coverage that really helped Welker. Even Amendola had a sixth sense at times, as he often knew exactly where to be when everything else broke down.
They also were experts at baiting defenders. I remember one game they ran the same route with Edelman . . . a short sideline route that they completed multiple times for like 5 or 6 yards each time. The CB kept covering him closer and closer. Then in the biggest spot of the game, they ran it again, and Edelman turned and headed to the sideline like always and the CB jumped the route. But NE knew that was coming, and Edelman wasn't there, as he broke off into a go route and Brady hit him over the top for like a 70 yard TD. The game within a game. Belichick used to talk about this stuff all the time (just not in press conferences).
I'm not sure if Brady's mental acuity was his super power, but the level of practice, communication, and ability for an offense to all get on the same page, process everything, and know exactly what to do within seconds each play was mind boggling. That's one of the reasons NE had issues drafting WRs. What they were running was at such a PhD level that it was nearly impossible to know if a rookie would be able to grasp their scheme.
That was the main reason their offense was so successful. They usually didn't have the biggest, the strongest, the fastest, or the most athletic players . . . but their ability to gel and perform as a team was about as good as it gets.
Over the years, I've heard interviews with tons of players and coaches from NE, and the complexity of their offense (to me) was crazy. Their receivers were all tasked with hot reads, where literally each step they took during a play they had to react to what the defense was doing. The receivers all had assignments to read at every level, and ultimately they knew exactly where the ball was going to be thrown and would turn and it would be there. The biggest mind meld was with Edelman. Welker was great at it too, but I think Welker had the benefit of other receiving targets drawing coverage that really helped Welker. Even Amendola had a sixth sense at times, as he often knew exactly where to be when everything else broke down.
They also were experts at baiting defenders. I remember one game they ran the same route with Edelman . . . a short sideline route that they completed multiple times for like 5 or 6 yards each time. The CB kept covering him closer and closer. Then in the biggest spot of the game, they ran it again, and Edelman turned and headed to the sideline like always and the CB jumped the route. But NE knew that was coming, and Edelman wasn't there, as he broke off into a go route and Brady hit him over the top for like a 70 yard TD. The game within a game. Belichick used to talk about this stuff all the time (just not in press conferences).
I'm not sure if Brady's mental acuity was his super power, but the level of practice, communication, and ability for an offense to all get on the same page, process everything, and know exactly what to do within seconds each play was mind boggling. That's one of the reasons NE had issues drafting WRs. What they were running was at such a PhD level that it was nearly impossible to know if a rookie would be able to grasp their scheme.
That was the main reason their offense was so successful. They usually didn't have the biggest, the strongest, the fastest, or the most athletic players . . . but their ability to gel and perform as a team was about as good as it gets.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
I always said this about Brady. Physically average among NFL qbs, it was all his head. Even his accuracy, which gets credited as elite more than any other skill of his, was nothing special.
It broke down to this very simple thing. If you played zone against him, he knew where to find the hole in that zone to exploit it. If you blitzed him, he knew where to find the hot route to exploit it.
That left teams playing a lot of basic man coverage, which NE exploited by investing in the middle of the field with TEs and those shifty little slot receivers (Welker, Edelman) that excelled as man-beaters.
A simple formula that no one could ever really figure out a way to stop. That's why the only team that really gave Brady trouble was those Giants teams with elite defensive lines. Pressure without blitzing was the only way to stop it. Which incidentally also stops pretty much any qb.
I think Brady's lack of success at a young age was actually a huge boon to him. A lot of players with early success end up over-coached. Brady has talked about this some on Youtube as well. Essentially players end up with enough direct focus/attention from coaches that things are overexplained to them. Route designs, plays, etc, and the QBs don't ever learn to figure it out for themselves.
For instance, one thing Brady has mentioned before is that even NFL QBs are often told what the first read on a play is, or what the play is designed to do. But Brady's point is an NFL QB should not have to be told that. They should be able to look at any play, and recognize what the intent of the play is, who the first read is, who the right read is if the defense is in a certain zone, what receiver is meant to pull what defender depending on what defense they're in, etc.
But most QBs are just told these things, and they have to memorize them. But if you can understand them, you can process them much faster, and apply them on the field with the right audibles, faster reads, etc.
A lot of QBs have so much natural talent that they can overcome these deficiencies. Guys like Mahomes, Ljax, Josh Allen. Brady never had their mobility nor arm talent to just wing it like those guys can get away with when they don't read the defense correctly or aren't fast enough and miss the quick read after the snap. He had to win the mental game.
It broke down to this very simple thing. If you played zone against him, he knew where to find the hole in that zone to exploit it. If you blitzed him, he knew where to find the hot route to exploit it.
That left teams playing a lot of basic man coverage, which NE exploited by investing in the middle of the field with TEs and those shifty little slot receivers (Welker, Edelman) that excelled as man-beaters.
A simple formula that no one could ever really figure out a way to stop. That's why the only team that really gave Brady trouble was those Giants teams with elite defensive lines. Pressure without blitzing was the only way to stop it. Which incidentally also stops pretty much any qb.
I think Brady's lack of success at a young age was actually a huge boon to him. A lot of players with early success end up over-coached. Brady has talked about this some on Youtube as well. Essentially players end up with enough direct focus/attention from coaches that things are overexplained to them. Route designs, plays, etc, and the QBs don't ever learn to figure it out for themselves.
For instance, one thing Brady has mentioned before is that even NFL QBs are often told what the first read on a play is, or what the play is designed to do. But Brady's point is an NFL QB should not have to be told that. They should be able to look at any play, and recognize what the intent of the play is, who the first read is, who the right read is if the defense is in a certain zone, what receiver is meant to pull what defender depending on what defense they're in, etc.
But most QBs are just told these things, and they have to memorize them. But if you can understand them, you can process them much faster, and apply them on the field with the right audibles, faster reads, etc.
A lot of QBs have so much natural talent that they can overcome these deficiencies. Guys like Mahomes, Ljax, Josh Allen. Brady never had their mobility nor arm talent to just wing it like those guys can get away with when they don't read the defense correctly or aren't fast enough and miss the quick read after the snap. He had to win the mental game.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Not to put too fine of a point on it but this seems like a giant "well duh".
Elite QBs simply process more and faster than everyone else. It can be honed but not coached. You either have it or you don't. It's a type of genius.
In the Sam Darnold example, I believe his deficiencies we're minimized. He wasn't "unshackled" or "unlocked" because he found himself in the right system. When the chips were down, opposing teams forced him back into situations where he had proven repeatedly that he couldn't perform; when the mid/deep throw wasn't open, he couldn't trust his eyes to throw the short pass.
Patrick Mahomes' genius is his nearly clairvoyant ability to reset at multiple times during the same play. When the play goes sideways he diagnoses that in an instant, assess his alternate options, and almost always chooses the proper alternative. If we could see inside his head I think we'd see super computer like if/then/else processing. I don't say that as a joke.
Elite QBs simply process more and faster than everyone else. It can be honed but not coached. You either have it or you don't. It's a type of genius.
In the Sam Darnold example, I believe his deficiencies we're minimized. He wasn't "unshackled" or "unlocked" because he found himself in the right system. When the chips were down, opposing teams forced him back into situations where he had proven repeatedly that he couldn't perform; when the mid/deep throw wasn't open, he couldn't trust his eyes to throw the short pass.
Patrick Mahomes' genius is his nearly clairvoyant ability to reset at multiple times during the same play. When the play goes sideways he diagnoses that in an instant, assess his alternate options, and almost always chooses the proper alternative. If we could see inside his head I think we'd see super computer like if/then/else processing. I don't say that as a joke.
Stoneworker
Footballguy
This is exactly why Sean Payton jettisoned Russell Wilson and drafted Bo Nix.
The "processing speed" gene is also manifested not at the outset of a career, but primarily through continuous improvement game-after-game, year-after-year. Which Nix showed throughout his rookie season, at least.
The "processing speed" gene is also manifested not at the outset of a career, but primarily through continuous improvement game-after-game, year-after-year. Which Nix showed throughout his rookie season, at least.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
These guys also likely have eidetic memory that allows them to realize "I've seen this before and I know what to do here"
Jayden Daniels looks like the next guy with these superpowers.
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
I think that if you have this ability in the top x percentile, you are going to manifest it no matter what is being taught, and that most people probably have a ceiling on how well they can do it. Like eyesight, certain freaks have like 20/10 that you can never teach, but you can do exercises to train your eyes to improve depth perception, rapid movement, etc. you can certainly do training to improve spatial recognition and awareness.
I'm not sure about that. I think we all get the mental part is big but it doesn't feel like a "well duh". Especially with a "fine point". At least not to me.
I do find it interesting as well with him talking about how the game, in his opinion, is moving away from this. He's obviously a lot closer to it than I am. But not sure that isn't more a "back in my day..." thing.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
I don't now how it could be more self evident. The best quarterbacks are simply smarter than also-rans. They have to have physical ability TOO, of course. But it's their football smarts that set them apart. That's why there are so few elite QBs.
And in Brady's case - you put on top of it the relentless pursuit of perfection, that's where you get the all timers.
No worries. We'll just disagree there. Although I can see your side and do not think it's a "well duh" for you.
I do wonder how the mental tests will play out this year for the Combine. Something to watch.
Chaka
Footballguy
Unless he wasn't a successful fetus I think you mean "prolific".
IDK about Pop Warner or HS but he was highly successful as a college starter (20-5), got a national championship as a backup the year before, and won a Super Bowl in his second season in the NFL (first season as a starter).
He was always successful and I attribute a bunch of that to the work ethic that were talking about in here. But the physical attributes necessary to capitalize on that work ethic were always there. Becoming truly prolific as time went on is a byproduct of that work ethic AND physical gifts.
There are far more Rudys in this world than Bradys. People who live and breathe their passion and still, ultimately fail because they lack the necessary physical attributes to achieve their goals.
Sorry Rudy, was not a good football player and I'm not sure why people find inspiration in his story. I personally view his story as one of misplaced priorities that, likely cost him in the long run.
Brady has unique physical attributes, 6'4" ish and 220 ish lbs, that provided the tools necessary to accomplish what his already elite brain was capable of processing. It may have taken him a few more years to physically mature into an elite athlete but, make no mistake he had the physical attributes necessary to become an elite athlete.
dickey moe
Fingerpicker
It often seems it's the mental acuity that separates the GOATS from the greats.
Well yeah he was a great athlete, also drafted to play baseball but he didn't have the success relative to other QBs prior to the NFL, wasn't heavily recruited, started at Michigan 7th on the depth chart, almost transferred after a couple seasons and then wasn't even the full time starter, splitting time with Drew Henson. Then as we all know drafted in 6th round.
Stoneworker
Footballguy
The comparison between Drew Henson and Brady is perfect in this context. Henson was BY FAR the more physically gifted and talented QB at Michigan.
But their career paths could not have been more divergent due to the mental and work ethic attributes that Brady possessed and Henson didn't, and that required development time and coaching to fully manifest.
Ryan Leaf and Peyton Manning is another one that comes to mind.
And going way back, as a UT fan, I remember how much Heath Shuler struggled in the NFL. He relied way too much on his physical gifts and couldn't excel on the mental side.
There are lots of players like that.
There are lots of players like that.
Chaka
Footballguy
Henson threw 45 & 89 passes in two seasons while Brady threw 323 & 295. I didn't do a game by game analysis but I'm guessing a lot of those 134 passes by Henson were in mop up duty.
that's interesting i was under impression Henson threw a lot more passes. In any case it actually wasn't mop up duty, They would rotate quarters in the first half and then coach decided who would play the 2nd half.
Michigan has had some memorable quarterback competitions over the decades, but not many were as peculiar as the one that transpired in 1999.
Although Tom Brady was Michigan’s starting QB in ‘98, Michigan head coach Lloyd Carr wanted to give sophomore Drew Henson a crack at the gig in 1999. “I know this: there isn’t a coach in the country who has a better situation at quarterback,” Carr said in August ‘99.
Henson was considered the best high school QB to ever come out of the state of Michigan, he was personally recruited by Bo Schembechler, Carr called him the most talented quarterback he had ever been around. All the hype directed towards Henson was something Brady noticed, and the fact he wasn’t named the starter heading into the season had him frustrated. “The hype ends today when the doors close and everyone leaves,” Brady told Detroit News’ Bob Wojnowski. “To be the best, you have to beat out the best. I’ve fought long and hard to be in this position, and I don’t plan to give it up.”
A great QB situation turned into an unconventional decision by Carr. Instead of naming a starting quarterback before the season, Carr had another idea. His plan called for Henson to start the first quarter, Brady the second, and the hot hand getting the nod for the entire second half.
Full article: https://www.maizenbrew.com/football...-football-tom-brady-and-drew-henson-qb-battle
Chaka
Footballguy
Thank you, MitchieGPT.
Stoneworker
Footballguy
In 1998, Brady was the starter and Henson the freshman backup
In 1999, they platooned 1st/2nd qtr as you stated until the MSU game when Brady won the job thereafter. Not mop up duty
In 2000, Henson started and avgd almost 232 ypg passing over 8 games with a 152 passer rating (injured to start season). He bailed his senior season to play baseball for Yankees. Later flamed out for multiple teams in NFL
Last edited:
rockaction
Footballguy
That's a little mean. I remember that the coaches would do that at Michigan when Brady was there.
Chaka
Footballguy
I feel like I'm missing a good joke here.
rockaction
Footballguy
In the 1999 season, Brady had to once again hold off Henson for the starting job. The two players platooned during the season's first seven games, with Brady playing the first quarter, Henson the second, and Carr then deciding upon a quarterback for the second half. - Wikipedia
Perhaps I'm missing the joke, Chaka. I don't really know.
Chaka
Footballguy
They platooned over seven games in a twelve game season?
And Brady ended up with 295 attempts to 89 for Henson.
I'm not going to go over the game logs so from the view from 30,000 feet the Wolverines went from 25 pass attempts per game over the first seven games (split between two QBs) to 41 pass attempts per game over the last five games, exclusively by Brady.
I do remember, vaguely, some platooning during that season (when I was far more in touch with the college game). But how does a platoon narrative pass muster with those year end numbers?
rockaction
Footballguy
I was just trying to provide a little background. I also remember the platoon as being mentioned many times by many people when discussing Brady and his unlikely rise to the top of the Pats' depth chart. I'm also not going hunting for it. Mitchie's citation and Wiki will suffice for me. Perhaps Brady was the one chosen for the second half most or if not all of the time.
Yenrub
Footballguy
Being given the answers to the questions before taking the test also helps a lot!
Belichick is one of, if not the greatest, defensive minds the NFL has ever seen. Having him teach Brady about the nuances of just about every defensive scheme had to have helped Brady speed up his processing
Chaka
Footballguy
That may have been the plan but Brady was the official starter for every game that year. Henson went many games without even a stat.
Henson had one game, I believe, where he threw more passes than Brady but Brady was the starter and saw, by far, more PT than Henson. He was even a team captain.
Stoneworker
Footballguy
It is well-documented common knowledge that Brady started over Henson. So what is the point you are trying to make?
Chaka
Footballguy
Seems pretty clear, sorry if I worded it poorly.
Carr's plan to platoon Henson and Brady never materialized on the field. Henson was an afterthought.
Stoneworker
Footballguy
By no means was Henson ever an "afterthought."
Brady just displayed the qualities that appealed to a conservative, old school coach like Lloyd Carr. And at some point the experiment had to end and Carr had to pick a horse.
It was to no one's surprise at the time (although a disappointment to many) that Carr chose the Volvo over the Ferrari
Last edited:
pinkstapler
Footballguy
Maybe it's meant to be read between the lines; but I still put it in higher regard than physical ability and mental acuity as I believe you can't reach peak in either without it, and it's work ethic. It only makes sense even Brady himself would downplay it compared to something like his processing speed because it has very likely been inherent in him since birth. But outsiders see it immediately. And very, very, very (insert like 5 more of these) few people have it to the level of the greats. And I can barely think of a GOAT who doesn't. Jordan, Woods, Rice, Brady.... they are probably diagnosable with some type of neurotic disorder for how driven and dedicated they were/are to their craft. Always first to get there. Always last to leave. It's not enough to spend every waking moment thinking of their craft, they even aimed to dream about it.
Brady may have been naturally gifted at processing, and I'd imagine there are many people who are. But near nil who then put themselves in the .01 percentile at it from non-stop study of film, meeting with every single position group individually every week, from knowing offensive line calls and assignments better than some of his actual linemen. It wasn't just dedication, it was obsession. Be it David Shaw coming back to campus at Stanford and spotting someone standing in the pouring rain in the quad swinging a golf club to find it's Tiger who explained "It doesn't rain enough here. I need to practice in it when I get the chance." Or Steve Young having to get a janitor to let him into a locked stadium the day after the Super Bowl so he could clean out his locker and spots Jerry Rice (who must have had his own personal key) running routes on the field by himself.
These kinds of stories only represent a fraction of the work the GOATs put in when everyone else was taking a breather. That type of drive/dedication/work ethic IMO is supremely more rare than any kind of physical or mental traits. And to me, is the most important key to greatness as it's not just additive to other positive traits; it's multiplicative. Just about everyone thinks they work hard. Maybe 1 out of every million or so think they are never working hard enough. That's the real super power.
Brady may have been naturally gifted at processing, and I'd imagine there are many people who are. But near nil who then put themselves in the .01 percentile at it from non-stop study of film, meeting with every single position group individually every week, from knowing offensive line calls and assignments better than some of his actual linemen. It wasn't just dedication, it was obsession. Be it David Shaw coming back to campus at Stanford and spotting someone standing in the pouring rain in the quad swinging a golf club to find it's Tiger who explained "It doesn't rain enough here. I need to practice in it when I get the chance." Or Steve Young having to get a janitor to let him into a locked stadium the day after the Super Bowl so he could clean out his locker and spots Jerry Rice (who must have had his own personal key) running routes on the field by himself.
These kinds of stories only represent a fraction of the work the GOATs put in when everyone else was taking a breather. That type of drive/dedication/work ethic IMO is supremely more rare than any kind of physical or mental traits. And to me, is the most important key to greatness as it's not just additive to other positive traits; it's multiplicative. Just about everyone thinks they work hard. Maybe 1 out of every million or so think they are never working hard enough. That's the real super power.
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
Is this the S2 test that made some headlines a few years ago? One NFL reporter leaked CJ Stroud's test scores which were unusually low, and there was speculation he would drop in the draft because of it. The reported quoted some NFL guys (anonymously) who said they wouldn't draft him because of his poor S2 score. It was reported that Stroud scored 18% and Bryce Young scored 98%. There was some discussion here about it at the time. After their rookie years, some folks speculated that the S2 test got somewhat of a black eye from that real-world experience.
According to my google search: "The S2 test is a cognitive assessment used at the NFL combine to measure how quickly and accurately players process information. It's designed to evaluate a player's ability to make split-second decisions, which is especially important for quarterbacks."
Yes. S2 has been up and down. It got a big boost when Brock Purdy did so well.
Was Brock Purdy’s emergence predictable? S2 Cognition test has pointed to NFL success
Was Brock Purdy’s emergence predictable? S2 Cognition test has pointed to NFL success
The top NFL quarterbacks tend to score high on the S2 Cognition test that 800 draft prospects take each year. Purdy aced his exam last year.
www.nytimes.com
It's been less effective with other players.
And I'm sure there will be other tests as well.
