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Tomlinson...........NFL MVP (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter G-Money
- Start date
Dancing Bear
Footballguy
Although I mean no disrespect to LT2, there are others who should have been in the running for the MVP award who were completely ignored.
B. Urlacher
S. Merriman
F. Gore
T. Brady
T. Barber
R. Lewis
E. Reed
L. Johnson
C. Bailey
A. Samuel
D. Ware
along with
D. Brees
P. Manning
His Offensive accomplishments were spectacular, but the award is for MVP and not Offensive Player of the Year.
The fact that none of these others were given consideration is disturbing to me.
B. Urlacher
S. Merriman
F. Gore
T. Brady
T. Barber
R. Lewis
E. Reed
L. Johnson
C. Bailey
A. Samuel
D. Ware
along with
D. Brees
P. Manning
His Offensive accomplishments were spectacular, but the award is for MVP and not Offensive Player of the Year.
The fact that none of these others were given consideration is disturbing to me.
He scored the most TDs ever on the team with the best record in the NFL, this was no contest.
The Noid
Avoid me!
Who says they weren’t considered? 44 of the 50 decided LT2 should win among all candidates. Just because the other 6 voted for players on offense (and both of them QB’s) doesn’t mean those other players weren’t in contention among their votes, too. It should have been 50 – 0 for LT2, who cares if the other 6 were for QBs, LBs or even kickers.
BoltBacker
Footballguy
Exactly.Best player in the league on the best team(regular season) in the league while breaking the scoring record for a single season. If that's not a slam-dunk I don't know what is. People are "disturbed" because Champ Bailey isn't considered? Please.He scored the most TDs ever on the team with the best record in the NFL, this was no contest.
Conquering Heroes
Footballguy
IMO if these DEF guys want MVP consideration....play QB or RB or shut up!
Just like small school guys complaining about not being considered for the H'man..Go to a big football school or except the fact that you will never win a big post season award.
Just like small school guys complaining about not being considered for the H'man..Go to a big football school or except the fact that you will never win a big post season award.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
How do you know that they weren't given any consideration? Maybe a lot of people did strongly consider them but just decided that LT's accomplishments this season were too difficult to ignore. What's really amazing to me is that he's just the 4th RB to ever receive the award. With the way Peter King was slobbering all over Brees I thought that it would be a close race. Obviously King's peers did not agree with him (as they shouldn't have). Brees is a great story and played a great role in turning around the Saints, but when you compare his numbers and record with Manning's, Manning actually comes out ahead.
corpcow
Footballguy
Who says they weren't given consideration? There is no one on that list I would give it to over LT, given 1) their individual accomplishments and 2) his team's success.
freeannyong
Footballguy
That is the problem with the MVP voting today. People think that just because he scored 30 TD's he is the most valuable player. That is stupid.Go look at www.footballoutsiders.com and then you will realize LT's season is only the 6th best by a RB in the past 4 years. Being a RB is about a lot more then just scoring TD's. It is about getting big runs on first down, converting short yardage doing everything that the DPAR stat takes into consideration.
On the other hand, Manning has his highest DPAR of his career and doesn't even get noticed because LT scored a lot of TD's. Yes, that is right, Manning has had his best season of his career, and it doesn't even get noticed.
Got to go for now, will add more later.
BoltBacker
Footballguy
... as is completely ignoring the fact Tomlinson led SD to the best record in the NFL and HFA through the playoffs.
-OZ-
Footballguy
We could argue all day about whether the only difference between the Chargers and Colts this year was their defenses, it certainly was a key difference. Fact is, the Chargers were the best team this year. LT is the best player on that team. He scored at will against defenses who knew he would get the ball. There were many times everyone in the stands, on the field, and on the sideline knew the ball was going to LT and he wasn't stopped. He clearly was the MVP this year.
Footballoutsiders has an interesting way of looking at things, the site makes great arguments many times. BUT, this one was simple. LT flat out dominated this year. And no, it's not just because of the 30 TDs, as if that's a small feat.
BoltBacker
Footballguy
2004comp% - 67.6yards - 4557yards/attempt - 9.17TD - 49INT - 10QBrating - 121.1record 12-42006comp% - 65.0yards - 4397yards/attempt - 7.89TD - 31INT - 9QBrating - 101.0record 12-4 So Mannings '06 season was better than his '04 season according to DPAR? Yeah, it would be stupid not to blindly follow some DPAR #.
Dancing Bear
Footballguy
By definition MVP should imply that without you, the team would not have done as well as they did with you.
IMHO the Chargers would have won just as many games with Michael Turner at RB this year; he averaged well over 6 ypc and has demonstrated he can carry the rock [over 1 ypc more LT2].
So, in spite of his tremendous Offensive performance. I'm not convinced that LT2 was even the MVP on San Diego. There is a much better case for S. Merriman simply by definition.
Look how differently the Chargers Defense played while he was on suspension. They gave up 26.75 pts per game in his absence and less than 16.42 pts per game with his presence. That's over 10 pts per game difference.
Again, please note, that I'm not intending any disrespect to LT2's Offensive performance. He is hands down the NFL's Offensive Player of the Year. I just don't believe he is the NFL's MVP.
IMHO the Chargers would have won just as many games with Michael Turner at RB this year; he averaged well over 6 ypc and has demonstrated he can carry the rock [over 1 ypc more LT2].
So, in spite of his tremendous Offensive performance. I'm not convinced that LT2 was even the MVP on San Diego. There is a much better case for S. Merriman simply by definition.
Look how differently the Chargers Defense played while he was on suspension. They gave up 26.75 pts per game in his absence and less than 16.42 pts per game with his presence. That's over 10 pts per game difference.
Again, please note, that I'm not intending any disrespect to LT2's Offensive performance. He is hands down the NFL's Offensive Player of the Year. I just don't believe he is the NFL's MVP.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
I have never paid to much attention to some of these other ranking systems, and now I know why. Good god...manning's best season ever????
shakeybarn
Footballguy
Some nice JINX-like trivia.
Last NFL MVP to actually wear a super bowl ring that year.... ?
Was Warner in 99!!!
Odd... before that... Steve Young, Emmitt, Favre, TD, Montana... it seemed year in-year out... the MVP went on to win the Super Bowl, much less the Super Bowl MVP.
Last NFL MVP to actually wear a super bowl ring that year.... ?
Was Warner in 99!!!
Odd... before that... Steve Young, Emmitt, Favre, TD, Montana... it seemed year in-year out... the MVP went on to win the Super Bowl, much less the Super Bowl MVP.
Banger
Footballguy
SA was close last year...
I disagree with your definition. It is not the team MVP but the LEAGUE MVP, I think that makes a bit of a difference. Who stood out heads and shoulders above all players in the league.You could make a valid arguement about Merriman over Tomlinson for the MVP of the Chargers. Personally I don't agree with it, I think without Tomlinson in at RB. The most feared RB in the NFL, Rivers doesn't post anywhere near a decent season.
Dancing Bear
Footballguy
thayman,
I appreciate your thoughtful rebuttal!
Care to expand upon what your definition would be for League MVP? What sorts of criteria would be considered? I'd be curious ...
I appreciate your thoughtful rebuttal!
Care to expand upon what your definition would be for League MVP? What sorts of criteria would be considered? I'd be curious ...
BoltBacker
Footballguy
You'd be wrong.... not that I really agree with the premise that your chances of MVP should ride on how good/bad your backup is in the first place.
BoltBacker
Footballguy
On field performence + team success + leadership qualities
MarshallRob
Footballguy
I agree with Thayman. Tomlinson's on-field performance should be judged on its own merits. Even if for the sake of argument we accept the premise that the drop-off to Turner would not be that great if San Diego didn't have Tomlinson, that should be irrelevant. You shouldn't go giving out awards on the basis of how good somebody's backup is. LT can't control that. Tomlinson had an incredible season in 2003 but didn't win the MVP in part because his team was 4-12. He has better teammates now but the quality of his play hasn't changed.
that tells ya something about their DPAR stat and it's significanceThat is the problem with the MVP voting today. People think that just because he scored 30 TD's he is the most valuable player. That is stupid.Go look at www.footballoutsiders.com and then you will realize LT's season is only the 6th best by a RB in the past 4 years. Being a RB is about a lot more then just scoring TD's. It is about getting big runs on first down, converting short yardage doing everything that the DPAR stat takes into consideration.He scored the most TDs ever on the team with the best record in the NFL, this was no contest.
On the other hand, Manning has his highest DPAR of his career and doesn't even get noticed because LT scored a lot of TD's. Yes, that is right, Manning has had his best season of his career, and it doesn't even get noticed.
Got to go for now, will add more later.
Banger
Footballguy
but it wasn't just Merriman that was out, it was Castillo, Phillips was banged up with a calf injury (was in and out) and I believe McCree was out a few games there too as well as a few others. At one point during that stretch I think they had 6 starters out so it wasn't just Merriman that had an impact on the defense.
That's some sort of extension it's not the definition. He's most valuable, simple as that.It could be construed as he's most valuable to the league(NFL MVP) not his team....an extension can go anywhere really.
corpcow
Footballguy
I think ESPN's headline says it all: "LT + TDs + 14-2 = MVP"
Regardless of what you want to say, LT had arguably one of the best seasons a RB EVER HAD, while his team was winning. A few of those 3 and 4 TD games came in the second half when his team was down big.
I'm a big fan of Turner, but it's ridiculous to speculate that he might also have had one of the best RB seasons ever merely because he had a high YPC in backup duty. Let's not forget that, on a good number of his carries, LT was also on the field split out wide which in turn helped open up things for Turner.
Regardless of what you want to say, LT had arguably one of the best seasons a RB EVER HAD, while his team was winning. A few of those 3 and 4 TD games came in the second half when his team was down big.
I'm a big fan of Turner, but it's ridiculous to speculate that he might also have had one of the best RB seasons ever merely because he had a high YPC in backup duty. Let's not forget that, on a good number of his carries, LT was also on the field split out wide which in turn helped open up things for Turner.
Personally I think that says a lot about his O-line.
acefootball
Footballguy
I think the two people that voted for Manning should have their voting priveledges taken away, seriously.
freeannyong
Footballguy
You should have your account banned from posting for just blindly saying that. Manning took a team who allowed more rushing yards then passing yards on D and lead them to the division crown. Plug ANY RB into the starting lineup in SD and you are going to get simliar results from them. No they will not be as good, as I do believe that LT is the best back in the NFL, but they will have good numbers. Now, plug ANY QB onto the Colts and see how they do. They would be 8-8 with anybody not named Manning or a heathly McNabb. The 173 ypg is 40 more yards a game then any other playoff team. They have allowed the 2nd most rushing TD's and more 20+ yard runs then anybody. They have also yield 25 more first down runs then any other team.
This is ignorant. LT had one of the best TD SCORING season a RB has ever had. As far as a REAL FOOTBALL standpoint goes, it is about the 10th best season a RB has had since 2000. Anybody remember Priest in 02? Well if you don't, that is the BEST season by a RB in the last 6 years. We aren't talking about fantasy football here. Having a truly great season is about so much more than just scoring TD's. Football Outsiders takes all of that into consideration. If you haven't checked it out I would advice you to do so.
You can't just look blindly at those stats either. Just as well as being a great RB is more then just TD's, being a QB is more then just TD's and QBrating. His DPAR for 2004 was 170 and for this year it is 175. So I have no problem with you saying 2004 was a better season, but it is going to be close. The Colts this year are 47.1% on 3rd downs and 78.6% on 4th downs (14 attempts). In 2004 they were 42.7% on 3rd downs and 57.1% on 4th downs (7 attempts). I wish I could find the stats for the Colts on 3rd and 8 or longer becuase their conversion rate for those is astoundingly high. That is all on Manning, as teams 99% of the time don't run on 3rd and 8 or longer (unless you are playing the Colts run D). Don't call me stupid for following a DPAR number, when you are doing the same thing with just stats. Manning did A LOT of damage in 2004 against a WEAK NFC South. He had 19 TD passes against the NFC South that year. However, this year their schedule included the NFC East which has 3 playoff teams and the AFC East which has 2 playoff teams and one on the cusp (Buff). Lastly, there is a reason that QB is the highest paid position in the NFL, and it is because they are the most important guy on the field. RB's are a dime a dozen, QB's not so much.
Banger
Footballguy
I think LT should have won it but I posted this in a Manning thread a little while back....I ran across some interesting stats regarding the Colts and their drives. They have the fewest drives in the NFL (138) and the 31st ranked team Houston has 156 (13% difference) that's 18 fewer drives (Sea has the most 186). Despite having the fewest drives (by a lot), they are #1 in yards/drive with 41.2 (a staggering 7 yards more than the 2nd best team), #1 in pts/drive, #1 in TD's drive, fewest punt/drive, 26th worst as far as starting field position, #1 in drive success rate (a full 8% better than the 2nd best team). Despite having the deck hugely stacked against him (32 fewer drives than average) and the 26th best starting field position they are #1 (by huge margins in many cases) in nearly all drive related stats and #2 in the NFL in scoring. The Colts are 22nd in time of possession (29:27) despite getting nearly 20% fewer drives than the average team. That's unreal.Manning has had absolutely no margin for error this year and has had an incredible year.
TDs(the only point you offerred) are worth 6 in FF and in the NFL.
Outsiders seems to have alot of fans here.What's "all that" you say they're taking into consideration?
I don't necessarily disagree with you but I don't see his absence being part of the root definition.
freeannyong
Footballguy
Bri,
First go here: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/rb.php
Then: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/methods.php#dpar
Then: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/methods.php#dvoa
That should about do it. Enjoy.
First go here: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/rb.php
Then: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/methods.php#dpar
Then: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/methods.php#dvoa
That should about do it. Enjoy.
Many should have been considered, but the only votes cast should have gone for LT. There's really no argument for anybody else. Mentions? Maybe, but votes? No way. He was heads and shoulders above anybody else this year.
freeannyong
Footballguy
You obviously have read one thing in this thread. Please come back after you have.
I know of the site and DVOA and all. I was asking what you specifically liked as "all that" to possibly debate that.I don't agree with it.
I'm not saying I don't applaud their efforts or their stat work I just...it doesn't fly for me.
I get a different feeling watching the game. It's not uncommon. I might watch some lineman oWn a defender all day. The defender gets in for a sack in the 4th Q and the papers say the lineman stinks, he was oWned all day etc.
Chrebet led the NFL in 3rd own catches for a 1st down a few times. I don't discredit Harrison or Herman Moore or Holt or whomever getting 100 catches but watching, I know Chrebet was "nails". When they needed a first, the announcers knew it was coming, I did, it seemed the D did, but he'd get the first down catch anyway. That something special IMO and I never felt Chrebet got his due.
Also, I've seen some guys get praised for their 4th quarter play and how they're a winner. Maybe but they stunk in quarters 1 thru 3 and that's why they have to keep engineering these comebacks. I wish there was a stat to "take em' down a notch" for the 1-3 quarters I guess.
As you might expect I've looked at their rating system expecting some similar results. I don't feel they are there. They need some sort of tweaking IMO.
I've never taken the time to crunch stats their way then add this or take away that or give some stats more weight so that's my own fault/prob but their DVOA PAR and all don't do it for me.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
And after he does that and comes back with the same correct conclusion he already had - what then?
S
Snicks
Guest
who is ann young and why are we freeing her...
I really think it comes down to: where would San Diego be without LT2? Yeah, his backup is good, but not that good. San Diego could be 11-5, potentially in a wild card after giving up games to KC and Denver, or even 9-6 and out of the playoffs. When one player is responsible for a 3-5 game swing in your record on your way to the playoffs, that seems like MVP material to me.
Sinrman
Footballguy
Wow... I agree with several here, and disagree strongly with others.
LT was the MVP of the league......EASILY. And the voting shows this. It wasn't even close, and shouldn't have been. Brees flirting with Marino's record was fun to watch, but he fell short. He was about the only one that would be close to LT this year. No one, on offense or defense, dominated as much as LT did this year.
Sure, there were some defensive guys that had great years (Taylor, Merriman, Bailey, Urlacher, etc.). But they did not dominate their position like LT did the RB position. He had the most rushing yards, the most rushing TDs, his second best receiving year (56 rec/508 yards/3 TDs) and one of the best receivers out of the backfield, and even THREW two TD passes! The only other thing he didn't do, was kick FGs and XPs! What more do you want from the guy?! If you say LT doesn't deserve to be MVP, then you certainly don't feel Shaun Alexander deserved it last year, because LT blew that away... if that's the case, then good luck. I don't think there will be anyone that will convince you otherwise.
LT was the MVP of the league......EASILY. And the voting shows this. It wasn't even close, and shouldn't have been. Brees flirting with Marino's record was fun to watch, but he fell short. He was about the only one that would be close to LT this year. No one, on offense or defense, dominated as much as LT did this year.
Sure, there were some defensive guys that had great years (Taylor, Merriman, Bailey, Urlacher, etc.). But they did not dominate their position like LT did the RB position. He had the most rushing yards, the most rushing TDs, his second best receiving year (56 rec/508 yards/3 TDs) and one of the best receivers out of the backfield, and even THREW two TD passes! The only other thing he didn't do, was kick FGs and XPs! What more do you want from the guy?! If you say LT doesn't deserve to be MVP, then you certainly don't feel Shaun Alexander deserved it last year, because LT blew that away... if that's the case, then good luck. I don't think there will be anyone that will convince you otherwise.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
The Chargers were 4-0 without Merriman, so there goes that idea of him being more valuable to the team than Tomlinson.
This was the biggest no-brainer decision for MVP in nearly a decade.
This was the biggest no-brainer decision for MVP in nearly a decade.
David Dodds
Administrator
This is my take as well. Manning had a great year and was the best QB. Brees had consideration but tailed off a lot the last 3+ games. The IDP guys mentioned had great years, but nothing earth shattering that would cause them to get the MVP (For a defensive player to win MVP it really has to be ground breaking as the offense gets more press and generally more credit for wins). Tomlinson did all of this with a QB with no game experience. Defenses KNEW SD would run, yet he continued to pile up huge yards and TDs while leading his team to the best record in the league. He was the best of 2006 by a wide margin in my opinion. I find the DPAR stuff interesting, but don't buy into Manning's 2006 season is better than his 2004 campaign (less yards, less TDs, less yards per attempt, worse QB rating, etc).I would rank the MVPs as follows:1. Tomlinson2. Manning3. Brees
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DaveGrumbles
Footballguy
I think its true we should just jam all these facts into our handy dandy football outsiders calculator to determine league MVP's. In fact while we're at it screw the playoffs lets ask football outsiders who the super bowl winner is right now and what team really won it the last five years. I'm sick of actually being forced to watch football and make judgements based on happenings on the field as well judegements about guys who throw teams on their back week in and week out, watching guys play with heart and class, watching people actually be leaders on the field and having their teammates show that same player huge respect for being that same leader off the field.
Why bother when I can come here and have somebody spew out skewed calculations to tell me that a future hall of famer and possibly one of the three best Rb's in the history of the game really doesn't hold a candle to his own backup or 5 other Rb's in the last 4 years bacause the internet told him so.
I'm a big stat guy myself obviously being on a fantasy football board. At times though I think there are those that stare at those stats so long it blurs your vision of reality.
Sadly I'm a Jag fan, so not vested in the Chargers or LT at all... But I just have to shake my head at the absurd sometimes.
Why bother when I can come here and have somebody spew out skewed calculations to tell me that a future hall of famer and possibly one of the three best Rb's in the history of the game really doesn't hold a candle to his own backup or 5 other Rb's in the last 4 years bacause the internet told him so.
I'm a big stat guy myself obviously being on a fantasy football board. At times though I think there are those that stare at those stats so long it blurs your vision of reality.
Sadly I'm a Jag fan, so not vested in the Chargers or LT at all... But I just have to shake my head at the absurd sometimes.
freeannyong
Footballguy
Wrong. Manning in 2004 was easily a better season than Tomlinson had. The sad thing is Manning this year has been just as good or better than 2004. The only problem is he hasn't had the 49 TD's to go with it. That is a result of the horrible D and tougher schedule.
Wrong. If you put the top 10 backs in the league on that team they would have similar results. Think LJ, SA, Tiki, Frank Gore, Ronnie Brown, Edge, Willie Parker, etc. RB is just really not that important of a position. There are plenty of guys that come in a put up numbers. Now, how about if you put Steve McNair, or P. Rivers, or T. Green, or M. Hasselbeck, or C. Palmer, or any other QB on the Colts. The disparity is MUCH greater. Even with guys like McNabb, Brady, or Brees they most likely would be out of the playoffs.LT was the Offensive Player of the Year, not MVP.
In 2000 and 2001 Chrebet has a DPAR that puts him ~20-30 in the league. Solid for a small white guy.
Arrested Development. Best comedy since Seinfeld
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Gr00vus
Footballguy
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freeannyong
Footballguy
You don't believe that LJ would have scored 31 TD's this year with the way the Chargers played?EDIT: There is a reason that QB's and LT's are the two highest paid players in football, I'll let you figure out why.
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Gr00vus
Footballguy
No. Wait, let me rephrase: #### no. You're nuts if you think otherwise.
And that means LaDainian isn't MVP how exactly?See, here's the thing. You win games by scoring more points than your opponent. And LaDainian, while leading the league in rushing, comming in second by 40 yards in yards from scrimmage, throwing for a couple of TDs, carrying the team for a good stretch when the entire defensive front 7 was out, set the single season scoring record. This year he was the best there's ever been at doing the most important thing there is to do in football.
