Top 10 CLUTCH QBs of All Time (1 Viewer)

[CalBear]

Ive gotta say, the last guy I would have suspected who's position on this list would have been challenged so strongly would have been Elway. but the debate has been interesting. And he did melt away in some obviously giant Superbowl situations. But he's the all-time leader in 4th quarter comebacks. Saying he's not very clutch is almost like saying Brett Favre wasnt really all that great at winning football games.

I haven't been able to find a good data source for historical line scores, so I haven't been able to do a study yet, but I have a hypothesis that the number of 4th quarter comebacks a QB has (given a reasonable QB) is directly related to the number of opportunities that QB had for 4th quarter comebacks. Elway probably had more opportunities for 4th quarter comebacks (more games entering the 4th quarter losing by a small margin) than any other QB, so (if that's true), the fact that he has the most 4th quarter comebacks isn't really that notable.

 

[twitch]

Ive gotta say, the last guy I would have suspected who's position on this list would have been challenged so strongly would have been Elway. but the debate has been interesting. And he did melt away in some obviously giant Superbowl situations. But he's the all-time leader in 4th quarter comebacks. Saying he's not very clutch is almost like saying Brett Favre wasnt really all that great at winning football games.

I haven't been able to find a good data source for historical line scores, so I haven't been able to do a study yet, but I have a hypothesis that the number of 4th quarter comebacks a QB has (given a reasonable QB) is directly related to the number of opportunities that QB had for 4th quarter comebacks. Elway probably had more opportunities for 4th quarter comebacks (more games entering the 4th quarter losing by a small margin) than any other QB, so (if that's true), the fact that he has the most 4th quarter comebacks isn't really that notable.

Id probably concede that point without needing the evidence. Just as Im pretty sure Brett Favre had more opportunities to win games, which didnt hurt his chances of ultimately winning the most.

 

[shredhead]

Elway sucked hard in the Super Bowl, throwing for just 2 TDs vs. 8 INTs in 5 games. And don't be blaming the defense; if you go back and look at the play by play, the Broncos were in good shape in the second or third quarter of all of those losses until Elway melted down. That's not the mark of a top clutch QB.

There's no denying this. So - Here's some examples of clutch QB play:

The Browns had jumped to a 20-13 lead and the Broncos had muffed the ensuing kickoff when Elway took over, first-and-10 on their own 2-yard line, with 5:32 to play in the game.

1. - First down and 10, Denver 2-yard line. Sammy Winder 5-yard pass from Elway.

2. - Second down and 5, Denver 7-yard line. Winder 3-yard run.

3. - Third down and 2, Denver 10-yard line. Winder 2-yard run.

4. - First down and 10, Denver 12-yard line. Winder 3-yard run.

5. - Second down and 7, Denver 15-yard line. Elway 11-yard run.

6. - First down and 10, Denver 26-yard line. Steve Sewell 22-yard pass from Elway.

7. - First down and 10, Denver 48-yard line. S. Watson 12-yard pass from Elway.

Two-minute warning

8. - First down and 10, Cleveland 40-yard line (1:59 remaining). Incomplete pass by Elway, intended for Vance Johnson.

9. - Second down and 10, Cleveland 40-yard line (1:52 remaining). Dave Puzzilli sack of Elway, 8-yard loss.

10. - Third down and 18, Cleveland 48-yard line (1:47 remaining). Mark Jackson 20-yard pass from Elway.

11. - First down and 10, Cleveland 28-yard line (1:19 remaining). Incomplete pass by Elway, intended for Watson.

12. - Second down and 10, Cleveland 28-yard line (1:10 remaining). Steve Sewell 14-yard pass from Elway.

13. - First down and 10, Cleveland 14-yard line 57 remaining). Incomplete pass by Elway, intended for Watson.

14. - Second down and 10, Cleveland 14-yard line 42 remaining). John Elway 9-yard run (scramble).

15. - Third down and 1, Cleveland 5-yard line 39 remaining). Mark Jackson 5 yard pass from Elway for the touchdown. Rich Karlis then adds the extra point to tie the game.

So he got the ball with 5:32 left, against Cleveland of all teams, and scored a TD to tie it. Woo hoo. He went 6-9 passing and converted two third downs. This is the best example of clutch play in a 15-year career?

1. Cleveland was pretty darn good that year. They were probably better than the Broncos. They were in the AFCCG after all. To say against Cleveland of all teams is ignorant.2. You conveniently forgot to mention the 2 4th down conversions during that drive too. Hmmm, interesting.

 

[shredhead]

Lets also remember that Elway was 5-1 in AFCCG (with the one loss in Buffalo, where Elway missed the 4th quarter due to injury).

And Kubiak was almost, oh so close, to being clutch enough to win that Buffalo game.

 

[shredhead]

if we are going to cut and paste old arguments, here was my rebuttal:Elway didn't play very well.

I went ahead and edited your response down to the only part that is relevant to our conversation.

And I'll edit everything relevant you've said in this entire thread below.

 

[smackdaddies]

The Packers won 5 championships under Starr's leadership. During those years they did not have the dominant player at any position, though they had players that made names for themselves. What they all had, and what Starr had in spades was belief in themselves and their team mates and their coaches. That belief, that faith, allowed them to prevail against weather, stronger and larger and faster foes, and even against time as their last championship came well beyond the team's prime.Starr called his own plays. He analyzed the game. He did not have coaches in sky boxes with microphones and faxes of pictures of formations. He had to be the field general. His M.O was to run, run again, and dink and dunk until, inevitably, his signature move. Late in the game he would call the out of character play, something well up the field, he would throw against all tendancy and apparent common sense and make it work time and again. He was quiet, unassuming, of doughy build and mild temperment, and he was a ####### assasin who stood higher in championships than Unitas. He would gut opponents with greater gifts time and again with intelligence, will and faith, not natural athletic gifts.You want clutch, how about calling your own number in the Ice Bowl? He accepted ultimate responsibility in the harshest weather, against a younger and stronger team, and when his team was so short of backs they were playing a street free agent that day.You want perfection, in an era where Q.B.'s and receivers were savaged and mugged he hung the record for passes in a row without an interception. Starr was not the tallest, strongest-armed, fastest, or flashiest, in fact he was the antithesis of those things. What he was, was clutch.

What he said. No QB who doesnt/didnt call his own plays belongs on this list.

 

[Chachi]

Great list, no disagreements.

Anyone ripping Montana or Elway by saying they're overrated is ignorant. These two are the king of comebacks, if you don't agree, well, you're wrong.

 

[smackdaddies]

Super Bowl 2

Hornung and Taylor - gone - their replacements, Pitts and Graboski - gone. Donny Anderson and Williams were the RB, with a pair of free agent full backs that had been cut by multiple teams

the packers were clearly on the downside of their football dynasty. Starr had thrown twice as many interceptions that year as TD's.

Oh ya, Starr had just won the Ice Bowl to get this game.

And I will repeat what I said in my last post.

If you don't call your own plays, your not a QB worth discussing as "clutch". Your just a cog in the wheel of the machine, carrying water for the coach, doing what your told.

 

[I Am Rick James]

Super Bowl 2Hornung and Taylor - gone - their replacements, Pitts and Graboski - gone. Donny Anderson and Williams were the RB, with a pair of free agent full backs that had been cut by multiple teamsthe packers were clearly on the downside of their football dynasty. Starr had thrown twice as many interceptions that year as TD's. Oh ya, Starr had just won the Ice Bowl to get this game.And I will repeat what I said in my last post.If you don't call your own plays, your not a QB worth discussing as "clutch". Your just a cog in the wheel of the machine, carrying water for the coach, doing what your told.

Things that worked back then don't work so well today, just ask Al Davis.

 

[Dexter Manley]

Ive gotta say, the last guy I would have suspected who's position on this list would have been challenged so strongly would have been Elway. but the debate has been interesting. And he did melt away in some obviously giant Superbowl situations. But he's the all-time leader in 4th quarter comebacks. Saying he's not very clutch is almost like saying Brett Favre wasnt really all that great at winning football games.

The name that jumps out at me not belonging on the list is Steve Young. After finally winning a Super Bowl, Young literally acknowledged how he had a monkey on his back and how he felt relief that it (the monkey) was gone.Any qb who is perceived to have a monkey on his back for the majority of his career is not clutch.

 

[I Am Rick James]

Ive gotta say, the last guy I would have suspected who's position on this list would have been challenged so strongly would have been Elway. but the debate has been interesting. And he did melt away in some obviously giant Superbowl situations. But he's the all-time leader in 4th quarter comebacks. Saying he's not very clutch is almost like saying Brett Favre wasnt really all that great at winning football games.

The name that jumps out at me not belonging on the list is Steve Young. After finally winning a Super Bowl, Young literally acknowledged how he had a monkey on his back and how he felt relief that it (the monkey) was gone.Any qb who is perceived to have a monkey on his back for the majority of his career is not clutch.

I don't remember a ton of clutch moments from Steve Young. Not that he couldn't get it done, just not many chances. Plunkett probably had more.

 

[moleculo]

Oddly enough, the same thing happens w/ Montana and Marino. I don't want to look it up now because it's late and I have lots to do, but the 49ers were better after Joe left (maybe not before he got there). The Dolphins were a better team before Marino (SB team in '82) and after Dan retired (Fiedler took Phins to playoffs).

Post the numbers to back up your statement the way I did, or quit wasting our time.

He's right about the Dolphins performing better before Marino as well as after him with Fiedler.AFL/NFL Dolphins franchise before Marino: .612 regular season winning percentage (145-92-2 from 1966-1982)NFL-only Dolphins franchise before Marino: .710 regular season winning percentage & 2 Championships (130-53-2 from 1970-1982) Dolphins franchise with Fiedler: .641 regular season winning percentage (41-23 from 2000-2003)Dolphins franchise with Marino: .601 regular season winning percentage (163-108 from 1983-1999)

49ers record with Montana ('80 - '90): 118 - 49 0.70649ers record eight years after Montana ('91 - '98):95-33 0.742

 

[moleculo]

Ive gotta say, the last guy I would have suspected who's position on this list would have been challenged so strongly would have been Elway. but the debate has been interesting. And he did melt away in some obviously giant Superbowl situations. But he's the all-time leader in 4th quarter comebacks. Saying he's not very clutch is almost like saying Brett Favre wasnt really all that great at winning football games.

I haven't been able to find a good data source for historical line scores, so I haven't been able to do a study yet, but I have a hypothesis that the number of 4th quarter comebacks a QB has (given a reasonable QB) is directly related to the number of opportunities that QB had for 4th quarter comebacks. Elway probably had more opportunities for 4th quarter comebacks (more games entering the 4th quarter losing by a small margin) than any other QB, so (if that's true), the fact that he has the most 4th quarter comebacks isn't really that notable.

There is something to this. I believe that Reeves game-planned relying on Elways ability to deliver. Back in my wrestling days, our coach told us that the way you beat an opponent who is better than you is to be conservative, keep it close, and win it in the last period. Don't make too many mistakes early on, and then open it up at the end. That may have been Reeves plan all along, as the Broncos were, talent wise, inferior to a fair amount of the rest of the NFL. As purely anecdotal evidence, I have memories of mind-numbingly conservative game plans for the first three quarters - Winder up the gut on first, screen (or shovel pass) to Sewell on second, Winder off tackle on third, repeat. In the fourth quarter, the gloves came off and Reeves allowed Elway to finally do what he did best, and that's when things got interesting.Should my theory of Reeves relying on Elway's ability to pull the game out at the end be true, it does stand to reason that the Broncos would have had an abnormal number of games where they were within reach entering the 4th quarter, which would pave the way for the high number of comebacks. Of course then, the "clutch" cannot be discarded as Calbear is trying to do, as "clutch" was a defining characteristic.

 

[Despyzer]

Any qb who is perceived to have a monkey on his back for the majority of his career is not clutch.

I have to agree with you (seeing I said it earlier in this thread). But of course, that criteria means you also have to include Elway in that category.

 

[Despyzer]

Oddly enough, the same thing happens w/ Montana and Marino. I don't want to look it up now because it's late and I have lots to do, but the 49ers were better after Joe left (maybe not before he got there). The Dolphins were a better team before Marino (SB team in '82) and after Dan retired (Fiedler took Phins to playoffs).

Post the numbers to back up your statement the way I did, or quit wasting our time.

He's right about the Dolphins performing better before Marino as well as after him with Fiedler.AFL/NFL Dolphins franchise before Marino: .612 regular season winning percentage (145-92-2 from 1966-1982)NFL-only Dolphins franchise before Marino: .710 regular season winning percentage & 2 Championships (130-53-2 from 1970-1982) Dolphins franchise with Fiedler: .641 regular season winning percentage (41-23 from 2000-2003)Dolphins franchise with Marino: .601 regular season winning percentage (163-108 from 1983-1999)

Let's try this again using the same data that was used for Elway... 7 years prior, the years during, and the 7 years afterolphins before Marino: .602With Marino: .603After Marino: .536As you can see, there was a good-sized drop-off once Marino left, just like the 49ers had a big jump when Montana arrived. Elway is the only one of these three whose appearance and retirement essentially meant no appreciable difference. However, even if we found different outcomes in the case of Marino and Montana, it wouldn't mean much. The only one we are ironically crediting with carrying a lousy franchise on his back is Elway.

 

[CalBear]

Ive gotta say, the last guy I would have suspected who's position on this list would have been challenged so strongly would have been Elway. but the debate has been interesting. And he did melt away in some obviously giant Superbowl situations. But he's the all-time leader in 4th quarter comebacks. Saying he's not very clutch is almost like saying Brett Favre wasnt really all that great at winning football games.

The name that jumps out at me not belonging on the list is Steve Young. After finally winning a Super Bowl, Young literally acknowledged how he had a monkey on his back and how he felt relief that it (the monkey) was gone.Any qb who is perceived to have a monkey on his back for the majority of his career is not clutch.

Uh, you mean like Elway? If TD didn't show up in Denver, Elway would still have a monkey on his back.

 

[ozark]

Bobby Layne; 1995, Sports Illustrated called him "The Toughest Quarterback Who Ever Lived." To win ONE game, QB Layne. He would beat the ##### out of a line man if they messed up. No face mask in those days.

 

[H.K.]

Oddly enough, the same thing happens w/ Montana and Marino. I don't want to look it up now because it's late and I have lots to do, but the 49ers were better after Joe left (maybe not before he got there). The Dolphins were a better team before Marino (SB team in '82) and after Dan retired (Fiedler took Phins to playoffs).

Post the numbers to back up your statement the way I did, or quit wasting our time.

He's right about the Dolphins performing better before Marino as well as after him with Fiedler.AFL/NFL Dolphins franchise before Marino: .612 regular season winning percentage (145-92-2 from 1966-1982)NFL-only Dolphins franchise before Marino: .710 regular season winning percentage & 2 Championships (130-53-2 from 1970-1982) Dolphins franchise with Fiedler: .641 regular season winning percentage (41-23 from 2000-2003)Dolphins franchise with Marino: .601 regular season winning percentage (163-108 from 1983-1999)

Let's try this again using the same data that was used for Elway... 7 years prior, the years during, and the 7 years afterolphins before Marino: .602With Marino: .603After Marino: .536As you can see, there was a good-sized drop-off once Marino left, just like the 49ers had a big jump when Montana arrived. Elway is the only one of these three whose appearance and retirement essentially meant no appreciable difference. However, even if we found different outcomes in the case of Marino and Montana, it wouldn't mean much. The only one we are ironically crediting with carrying a lousy franchise on his back is Elway.

Let's try this again with years ending in "1"Dolphins with Marino: .500Dolphins without Marino: .700/thread

 

[Sea Bass]

Bobby Layne; 1995, Sports Illustrated called him "The Toughest Quarterback Who Ever Lived." To win ONE game, QB Layne. He would beat the ##### out of a line man if they messed up. No face mask in those days.

I would put him in a tier one with Johnny U. and Otto G.Tier two would include some of the sissies that are being bantered about in this thread.

 

[moleculo]

Oddly enough, the same thing happens w/ Montana and Marino. I don't want to look it up now because it's late and I have lots to do, but the 49ers were better after Joe left (maybe not before he got there). The Dolphins were a better team before Marino (SB team in '82) and after Dan retired (Fiedler took Phins to playoffs).

Post the numbers to back up your statement the way I did, or quit wasting our time.

He's right about the Dolphins performing better before Marino as well as after him with Fiedler.AFL/NFL Dolphins franchise before Marino: .612 regular season winning percentage (145-92-2 from 1966-1982)

NFL-only Dolphins franchise before Marino: .710 regular season winning percentage & 2 Championships (130-53-2 from 1970-1982)

Dolphins franchise with Fiedler: .641 regular season winning percentage (41-23 from 2000-2003)

Dolphins franchise with Marino: .601 regular season winning percentage (163-108 from 1983-1999)

Let's try this again using the same data that was used for Elway... 7 years prior, the years during, and the 7 years afterolphins before Marino: .602

With Marino: .603

After Marino: .536

As you can see, there was a good-sized drop-off once Marino left, just like the 49ers had a big jump when Montana arrived. Elway is the only one of these three whose appearance and retirement essentially meant no appreciable difference. However, even if we found different outcomes in the case of Marino and Montana, it wouldn't mean much. The only one we are ironically crediting with carrying a lousy franchise on his back is Elway.

wtf are you talking about?Here's the Dolphins, four years before and after Marinos retirement.

2003 Miami Dolphins 10 6 Wannstedt Fiedler

2002 Miami Dolphins 9 7 Wannstedt Fiedler

2001 Miami Dolphins* 11 5 Wannstedt Fiedler

2000 Miami Dolphins* 11 5 Wannstedt Fiedler

1999 Miami Dolphins* 9 7 Johnson Marino

1998 Miami Dolphins* 10 6 Johnson Marino

1997 Miami Dolphins* 9 7 Johnson Marino

1996 Miami Dolphins 8 8 Johnson Marino

with marino 36 28 0.5625

without marino 41 23 0.640625

The win totals are statistically significantly different (at roughly a 90% confidence level). The Dolphins won more games the four years after Marino retired than the four years before. With essentially the same team, Jay Fiedler stepped in and the Dolphins won 10+ games in three out of four years. Marino, on the other hand, won 10+ games only four times between 1986 and 1999, the bulk of his career.

Don't go dragging the present Dolphins into this debate either, as your 7 year span does. What has been happening in Miami lately has everything to do with Wanstedt mismanaging the personnel decisions and leaving the cubbord bare talent wise. Cameron and Saban have nothing to do with the calculus of Marino's impact.

Now, let's look at the Broncos, four years before and after Elways retirement.

2002 Denver Broncos 9 7 Shanahan Griese

2001 Denver Broncos 8 8 Shanahan Griese

2000 Denver Broncos* 11 5 Shanahan Griese

1999 Denver Broncos 6 10 Shanahan Griese

1998 Denver Broncos* 14 2 Shanahan Elway

1997 Denver Broncos* 12 4 Shanahan Elway

1996 Denver Broncos* 13 3 Shanahan Elway

1995 Denver Broncos 8 8 Shanahan Elway

With Elway: 47-17, 0.734

without Elway: 34-30, 0.531

again, these win totals are statistically significantly different (at roughly a 90% confidence level). The broncos were statistically significantly worse off after Elway retired.

Similarly, on the other end of these respective players careers it can be shown that the Dolphins did see an increase in # of wins with the arrival of Marino, but the increase was not statistically significant (10.4->11.5 on average). The Broncos did see a statistically significant number of more wins (7.8->11 on average) once Elway arrived. *note: this analysis prorates the 1982 season to a full 16 game schedule - a 7-2 record is equivalent to 12.4-3.6.

The bolded statement above is just plain not true.

 

[Despyzer]

Are Broncos fans the only fan base that will get into a heated argument with you when you say that their team was better than a lot of people realize or are there others?

"Their offensive line was pretty good." No, it wasn't! If you take away all the yards from one of the leading contributors to their rushing attack they finished in the bottom half of the league occasionally.

"They had quite a few guys who were of Pro-Bowl quality on their defense." Oh yeah? Well, if they were so good why are none of them in hall of fame? Why did they give up X amount of points to some of the most impressive offensive attacks in NFL history? Some of those guys you named were only actual Pro-Bowlers once or twice; therefore, they must have sucked during the years they didn't make the Pro-Bowl!

"Well, they had a couple of good coaches." Nuh-uh! Shanahan has never won anything since Elway retired, and Reeves was so stupid that he tried to make sure his team was trailing in the 4th quarter of every game they played!

 

[moleculo]

Are Broncos fans the only fan base that will get into a heated argument with you when you say that their team was better than a lot of people realize or are there others?

"Their offensive line was pretty good." No, it wasn't! If you take away all the yards from one of the leading contributors to their rushing attack they finished in the bottom half of the league occasionally.

"They had quite a few guys who were of Pro-Bowl quality on their defense." Oh yeah? Well, if they were so good why are none of them in hall of fame? Why did they give up X amount of points to some of the most impressive offensive attacks in NFL history? Some of those guys you named were only actual Pro-Bowlers once or twice; therefore, they must have sucked during the years they didn't make the Pro-Bowl!

"Well, they had a couple of good coaches." Nuh-uh! Shanahan has never won anything since Elway retired, and Reeves was so stupid that he tried to make sure his team was trailing in the 4th quarter of every game they played!

I don't know what more you Elway bashers want from us. You bring in the same tired arguments time and time again, and refuse to accept my points, probably because of your inability to refute them. Thread after thread, you, Calbear, BGP, and a few others continually rehashing the same points. At least, in this thread, you admitted that you are recycling arguments which is nice - it makes it easy for me to cut and paste my rebuttal (which, once again, goes unanswered).When will you guys simply admit that you hate Elway because he ripped the heart out of your team when you were young?

 

[Despyzer]

You bring in the same tired arguments time and time again, and refuse to accept my points, probably because of your inability to refute them.

We bring in the same arguments because they have never been given the credence they deserve and because of your inability to refute them. We refuse to accept your points because they have such little value. Do you really expect knowledgeable football fans to go along with the premise that in the ultimate teams sport that one guy was able to carry 23 losers on his back and make it to the championship game?

When will you guys simply admit that you hate Elway because he ripped the heart out of your team when you were young?

When Elway was playing, almost everybody ripped the heart out of my team. Add that to the things that do not make Elway at all special.

 

[BusMan]

Wow, Elway hate. I've always thought he was a great QB; am I wrong?

 

[Despyzer]

Wow, Elway hate. I've always thought he was a great QB; am I wrong?

He was clearly one of the best of his era. The "Elway hate" springs from those that are tired of Elway being made into something bigger than he actually was.

 

[moleculo]

You bring in the same tired arguments time and time again, and refuse to accept my points, probably because of your inability to refute them.

We bring in the same arguments because they have never been given the credence they deserve and because of your inability to refute them. We refuse to accept your points because they have such little value. Do you really expect knowledgeable football fans to go along with the premise that in the ultimate teams sport that one guy was able to carry 23 losers on his back and make it to the championship game?

let's start with this one - Elway has been blamed numerous times (including this thread) for the SBXXII loss to the Redskins. How was John Elway responsible for a 2nd quarter box score that looks like this?WAS Sanders 80 pass from D. Williams (Haji-Sheikh kick), 0:53WAS Clark 27 pass from D. Williams (Haji-Sheikh kick), 4:45 WAS Smith 58 run (Haji-Sheikh kick), 8:33WAS Sanders 50 pass from D. Williams (Haji-Sheikh kick), 11:18WAS Didier 8 pass from D. Williams (Haji-Sheikh kick), 13:56 Three TD passes of >25 yards, and a TD run of 58 yards. Yet, here's your regurgitation of Calbears post:

Super Bowl XXII: With a 10-0 lead and the ball on the Redskin 30, Elway takes an 18-yard sack, pushing Denver out of field goal range. Elway fails to lead another scoring drive the entire game while throwing 3 INTs.

Elway took a big sack, knocking the broncos out of FG range. Whoop-ti-do. As a "knowlegeable football fan", please explain to me how a QB is directly responsible for the other team scoring 35 points in a quarter. You will note that I stopped arguing that Elway carried the team singlehandedly years ago. I acknowledge that the D was good - or at least was supposed to be. I do not make the claim that Elway carried 23 losers to the championship game, so take that tired charge somewhere else. You also might note that not once in this thread did I ever make any claim about Elway, I simply am pointing out how the Elway bashers use faulty logic at best.

 

[KingEl]

Montana was clutch no matter where he was!!! Product of the system?!! He led his High School to the State Championship, he led Notre Dame to many comebacks and a National Championship when they weren't the best team in the nation, he came to a 49ers team that was putrid and (yes, along with Walsh) turned them into a Dynasty, winning a Super Bowl within a couple of years with no name talent... He then went to KC when he was old, robbed of much of his arm strength and speed from so many injuries, and created some incredible clutch moments...

His first year at KC-- Playoff game against Pitts- Montana throws a TD on the last play of the game to tie it, then takes the team to the win in Overtime, then the next week beats a Houston team that was on an incredible win streak and highly favored with some amazing plays.. Went to Buffalo and got alot of dropped passes and a concussion for his trouble...

Next year, beats the 49ers and Young-totally outplaying Young-- and outduels Elway in one the greatest MNF games ever..

As far as the 49ers having a better win % after Montana- that's just playing with #'s. The poster is including the year Montana sat on the bench as a rookie while the 49ers was one of the worst teams in the league, and the 49ers built from there, by the time they were at the peak under Montana- no one had a better win%. Then when Young took over the pieces were all in place- Rice at his peak, etc... The 49ers won 4 Supebowls with Montana!! 1 Super Bowl since- including Young and Rice's teams at their peak!!! That's better than when Montana was there!!!?

No Qb is going to be perfect, win every time, but Montana did it better. Madden had a great quote- "Montana never lost a game, he just ran out of time" With Montana, you ALWAYS thought he could pull out a close one if he got the chance....

The only flaw in Montana's carreer was his body didn't hold up like some of the other greats.. Not really his fault though as some of those injuries were flukish or cases where anyone would get hurt- and he certainly showed incredible grit in coming back from the back injury and later the arm. He was #1 when he was in there though

 

[Despyzer]

Yet, here's your regurgitation of Calbears post:

Super Bowl XXII: With a 10-0 lead and the ball on the Redskin 30, Elway takes an 18-yard sack, pushing Denver out of field goal range. Elway fails to lead another scoring drive the entire game while throwing 3 INTs.

Elway took a big sack, knocking the broncos out of FG range. Whoop-ti-do. As a "knowlegeable football fan", please explain to me how a QB is directly responsible for the other team scoring 35 points in a quarter.

Knowledgable football fans and smart QBs know that taking a sack when you are in FG range is essentially taking points off the board. The bigger the event, the quicker that momentum can shift, and that one play (coupled by his 3 INTs) certainly contributed to the 35 point swing. The only reason that this needs to be pointed out is to counteract the cult of personality that states that Elway was so "clutch" in circumstances like this.Was he solely responsible for the defeat? Of course not. To say as much amounts to as little as those who claim that Elway was the only decent player on this team. It takes a team to win or lose a game - especially one as big as a Super Bowl.Did he contribute to the loss? Of course he did. To think otherwise is simply blind homerism.

 

[Despyzer]

You will note that I stopped arguing that Elway carried the team singlehandedly years ago. I acknowledge that the D was good - or at least was supposed to be. I do not make the claim that Elway carried 23 losers to the championship game, so take that tired charge somewhere else. You also might note that not once in this thread did I ever make any claim about Elway, I simply am pointing out how the Elway bashers use faulty logic at best.

Feeling a little defensive? You're not the only other person posting in this thread. If it doesn't apply to you, then move on.

 

[moleculo]

Yet, here's your regurgitation of Calbears post:

Super Bowl XXII: With a 10-0 lead and the ball on the Redskin 30, Elway takes an 18-yard sack, pushing Denver out of field goal range. Elway fails to lead another scoring drive the entire game while throwing 3 INTs.

Elway took a big sack, knocking the broncos out of FG range. Whoop-ti-do. As a "knowlegeable football fan", please explain to me how a QB is directly responsible for the other team scoring 35 points in a quarter.

Knowledgable football fans and smart QBs know that taking a sack when you are in FG range is essentially taking points off the board. The bigger the event, the quicker that momentum can shift, and that one play (coupled by his 3 INTs) certainly contributed to the 35 point swing. The only reason that this needs to be pointed out is to counteract the cult of personality that states that Elway was so "clutch" in circumstances like this.Was he solely responsible for the defeat? Of course not. To say as much amounts to as little as those who claim that Elway was the only decent player on this team. It takes a team to win or lose a game - especially one as big as a Super Bowl.Did he contribute to the loss? Of course he did. To think otherwise is simply blind homerism.

it seems to me that when discussing "clutch", any examples where the game clearly is not within reach as evidence that a particular person is not "clutch" are extremely flimsy. You and Calbear are claiming that because Elway performed badly in three SB's that he was not as clutch as his reputation will have you believe. Likewise, you say that the Broncos of the late 80's were good teams and Elway did not carry them single-handedly. I say that if the Broncos were good teams outside of Elway, then the blame for the SB losses should be carried by 21 other starters as well, and therefore you cannot lump the burden of those losses on Elway alone. In fact, I will go on to say that the Denver defense played so poorly that they should shoulder significantly more blame than Elway, and therefore, these particular games should not be used as evidence of Elway's "clutch".

 

[Koya]

Wow, Elway hate. I've always thought he was a great QB; am I wrong?

He was clearly one of the best of his era. The "Elway hate" springs from those that are tired of Elway being made into something bigger than he actually was.

It is hard to be made bigger than what he actually was, when he actually was one of the greatest QBs, clutch and otherwise, to ever play the game.And if he had the tools of those 49er teams, with his ability to scramble? God knows what would have happened. That is not to say he is better than Montana, but you can CERTAINLY make the arguement.What arguement you can't (with any good sense) make is that he is anything less than a top 5 QB ever, unless you are going Sammy Baugh and Otto era, in which case you can toss a couple more possibilities in there.And again, I hate the guy from a Baltimore Colts perspective.

 

[CalBear]

Super Bowl XXII: With a 10-0 lead and the ball on the Redskin 30, Elway takes an 18-yard sack, pushing Denver out of field goal range. Elway fails to lead another scoring drive the entire game while throwing 3 INTs.

Elway took a big sack, knocking the broncos out of FG range. Whoop-ti-do. As a "knowlegeable football fan", please explain to me how a QB is directly responsible for the other team scoring 35 points in a quarter.

Here's how. Elway starts a drive at the Denver 44 44 1–10 Elway pass to Winder incomplete. Play nullified and Washington penalized 15 for roughing the passer (Olkewicz).W 41 1–10 Winder run middle, no gain (Grant). END OF FIRST QUARTERenver 10, Washington 0Second quarterW 41 2–10 Elway pass to Nattiel underthrown, incomplete.W 41 3–10 Elway sacked, loss of 12, Play nullified and Washington penalized 5 for offsides (Mann).W 36 3–5 Elway shovel pass to Boddie dropped, incomplete.W 36 4–5 Horan 36 punt, touchback.So, three incompletions and a sack. Zero yards gained on offense. Just over 1:00 off the clock.Washington has a one-play long TD, then Denver gets the ball back.Denver (14:07)Cox kick 3 yards into end zone, Bell 21 return (Hamel).D 18 1–10 Lang 3 run middle (Grant).D 21 2–7 Elway pass to Winder left incomplete.D 21 3–7 Elway pass to Sewell batted down (Coleman), incomplete.D 21 4–7 Horan 43 punt, Green no return (Bell).Two incompletions, three and out, 1:08 off the clock.Washington has a 5-play drive, scoring to go up 14-10. Denver (10:15)Cox kick into end zone, touchback.D 20 1–10 Elway 26 shovel pass to Winder (Bowles).D 46 1–10 Winder 7 run middle (Kaufman).W 47 2–3 Elway pass to Nattiel batted away (Butz), incomplete.W 47 3–3 Elway 21 run evading pass rush (Green).W 26 1–10 Winder run left, no gain (Butz).W 26 2–10 Elway pass to Sewell dropped, incomplete.W 26 3–10 Elway pass to Johnson middle, incomplete.W 26 4–10 Karlis’s 43–yard field–goal attempt was wide left.Finally he completes a pass; a shovel pass, but we'll still give him credit. He also has an important run. But then the drive stalls with two incompletions and they miss a field goal.Washington has a long run for another TD, they're now up 21-10. Elway trying to get Denver back into the game 22 1–10 Lang 2 run off right tackle (Mann).D 24 2–8 Elway pass to Johnson overthrown, incomplete.D 24 3–8 Elway 7 pass to Sewell right (out of bounds).D 31 4–1 Horan 29 punt out of bounds at W 40.Another failure to move the ball, more good field position for Washington, who got another long pass TD to go up 28-10. Elway's responseenver (3:42)Cox kick into end zone, touchback.D 20 1–10 Winder 13 run around left end (Bowles).D 33 1–10 Winder 8 draw middle (Kaufman).D 41 2–2 Elway pass to Nattiel deep right intercepted by Washington at W 21, Wilburn no return.Washington has another quick drive and TD, going up 35-10 with 1:04 left and one timeout. A chance to get back within striking distanceenver (1:04)Cox kick to D 10, Bell 14 return (Walton).D 24 1–10 Elway 7 pass to Lang middle (Manley).D 31 2–3 Elway 10 shovel pass to Sewell (Coleman). Denver–third time out 23).D 41 1–10 Elway 23 pass to Jackson left (Walton).W 36 1–10 Elway pass to Nattiel left intercepted by Washington at W 21, Davis no return.So, how did Elway contribute to Washington outscoring Denver 35-0 in the second quarter? He went 5-15 with two interceptions; and before the last drive (which ended with his interception), he was 2-12 with one interception. Denver had the ball five times and achieved only 5 first downs. He completely sucked, squandering good field position and giving away good field position to Washington. Then in the third quarter he finished burying the team, by starting out with another interception. He also had a second interception overturned on a roughing the passer penalty. The defense failed, too, obviously. But once again, I don't see how this performance can be considered anything but putrid. I don't think the other QBs near the top of the "all-time" lists have meltdowns of this magnitude in clutch situations.

 

[Koya]

Elways Super Bowl teams should never have SNIFFED the Super Bowl.

I hate the fact that I have to continually bring out the facts in order to set you guys straight.Let's look what Elway had going for him in '86-'89. He had a very good offensive line, a top-notch defense (with Pro-Bowl-quality players like Mark Haynes, Tom Jackson. Rulon Jones, Greg Kragen, Karl Mecklenberg, Dennis Smith, Louis Wright, Tyrone Braxton, Michael Brooks, and Steve Atwater), and strong special teams.He also had the single best home field advantage in professional sports.The only thing he did not have was excellent WRs and RBs. Even then Sammy Winder played well enough in '86 to make the Pro Bowl and the Three Amigos were all at least above average targets.The notion that there was no talent on this team and that Elway took a rag-tag bunch of misfits and single-handedly drug them to the Super Bowl is misguided at best and downright delusional at worst. Let's lay this nonsense to rest.

Without Elway, they are well under .500 teams.

For this to be true, we should be able to see a big jump when Elway got to the team and a big dropoff after he left, and yet... Broncos' winning percentage in the seven years prior to Elway: .635Broncos' winning percentage during the Elway years: .631Broncos' winning percentage in the seven years after Elway: .598Mods, can we get this post pinned, so I can stop repeating myself?

You may want to bring some conext into the equation in terms of who was on the team before after and all that before patting yourself on the back.The fact that you go into the fact that Elway's teams "only missed RBs and WRs" pretty much makes the rest of your statement moot.And why do you think Sammy freakin' Winder made a pro bowl and why the three crapigos were "above average"Hint: not because of THEIR ability.

 

[Despyzer]

it seems to me that when discussing "clutch", any examples where the game clearly is not within reach as evidence that a particular person is not "clutch" are extremely flimsy.

I disagree. Elway was carrying a lead at this point, and his poor play in the biggest game of the year hepled turn the tide. This is not what we would normally expect from a "clutch" QB. Can you name another QB that is legitimately in this conversation who performed this poorly in a game this important?

You and Calbear are claiming that because Elway performed badly in three SB's that he was not as clutch as his reputation will have you believe. Likewise, you say that the Broncos of the late 80's were good teams and Elway did not carry them single-handedly. I say that if the Broncos were good teams outside of Elway, then the blame for the SB losses should be carried by 21 other starters as well, and therefore you cannot lump the burden of those losses on Elway alone.

I don't think that CalBear and I have claimed anything differently. Both of us have admitted in this thread that the defense came up short.

In fact, I will go on to say that the Denver defense played so poorly that they should shoulder significantly more blame than Elway, and therefore, these particular games should not be used as evidence of Elway's "clutch".

Who in this thread is making out that Denver defense to be one of the best of all time? No one. Who in this thread is claiming that Elway is one of the best of all time? Someone is defending something that logic will tell us is indefensible.

 

[Despyzer]

You may want to bring some conext into the equation in terms of who was on the team before after and all that before patting yourself on the back.The fact that you go into the fact that Elway's teams "only missed RBs and WRs" pretty much makes the rest of your statement moot.And why do you think Sammy freakin' Winder made a pro bowl and why the three crapigos were "above average"Hint: not because of THEIR ability.

You may want to do the rest of your Elway-slurping cohorts a favor and crawl right back out of this conversation. You're the one that got us stirred up in the first place with all of your nonsense. The conjecture and innuendo that you are relying upon in this post clearly shows that you have no real leg to stand on.

 

[Tau837]

Elway has been blamed numerous times (including this thread) for the SBXXII loss to the Redskins. How was John Elway responsible for a 2nd quarter box score that looks like this?WAS Sanders 80 pass from D. Williams (Haji-Sheikh kick), 0:53WAS Clark 27 pass from D. Williams (Haji-Sheikh kick), 4:45 WAS Smith 58 run (Haji-Sheikh kick), 8:33WAS Sanders 50 pass from D. Williams (Haji-Sheikh kick), 11:18WAS Didier 8 pass from D. Williams (Haji-Sheikh kick), 13:56 Three TD passes of >25 yards, and a TD run of 58 yards. Yet, here's your regurgitation of Calbears post:

Super Bowl XXII: With a 10-0 lead and the ball on the Redskin 30, Elway takes an 18-yard sack, pushing Denver out of field goal range. Elway fails to lead another scoring drive the entire game while throwing 3 INTs.

Elway took a big sack, knocking the broncos out of FG range. Whoop-ti-do. As a "knowlegeable football fan", please explain to me how a QB is directly responsible for the other team scoring 35 points in a quarter.

I'm actually not bashing Elway in this thread, but I can answer your question.Here is the full play by play in the second quarter:W 41 2–10 Elway pass to Nattiel underthrown, incomplete. W 41 3–10 Elway sacked, loss of 12, Play nullified and Washington penalized 5 for offsides (Mann). W 36 3–5 Elway shovel pass to Boddie dropped, incomplete. W 36 4–5 Horan 36 punt, touchback. So, Elway was 0/2 and took a sack on the first drive, and the Broncos went 3 and out.Washington scored a TD.Denver (14:07)Cox kick 3 yards into end zone, Bell 21 return (Hamel). D 18 1–10 Lang 3 run middle (Grant). D 21 2–7 Elway pass to Winder left incomplete. D 21 3–7 Elway pass to Sewell batted down (Coleman), incomplete. D 21 4–7 Horan 43 punt, Green no return (Bell).Elway was 0/2 and the Broncos went 3 and out.Washington scored a TD.Denver (10:15)Cox kick into end zone, touchback. D 20 1–10 Elway 26 shovel pass to Winder (Bowles). D 46 1–10 Winder 7 run middle (Kaufman). W 47 2–3 Elway pass to Nattiel batted away (Butz), incomplete. W 47 3–3 Elway 21 run evading pass rush (Green). W 26 1–10 Winder run left, no gain (Butz). W 26 2–10 Elway pass to Sewell dropped, incomplete. W 26 3–10 Elway pass to Johnson middle, incomplete. W 26 4–10 Karlis’s 43–yard field–goal attempt was wide left.Elway was 1/4 on the drive. He had a nice run and the one completion was a shovel pass that went for a long gain, and Sewell dropped a pass.Washington scored a TD.Denver (6:27)Cox kick to D 3, Bell 19 return (Vaughn). D 22 1–10 Lang 2 run off right tackle (Mann). D 24 2–8 Elway pass to Johnson overthrown, incomplete. D 24 3–8 Elway 7 pass to Sewell right (out of bounds). D 31 4–1 Horan 29 punt out of bounds at W 40. Elway was 1/2, completing one pass short of the needed yardage on 3rd down. The Broncos went 3 and out.Washington scored a TD.Denver (3:42)Cox kick into end zone, touchback. D 20 1–10 Winder 13 run around left end (Bowles). D 33 1–10 Winder 8 draw middle (Kaufman). D 41 2–2 Elway pass to Nattiel deep right intercepted by Washington at W 21, Wilburn no return. Elway was 0/1, with his pass intercepted. By this point, he was pressing, and this kick was not unlike a punt... but they had plenty of time to try to drive and put points on the board, and, more importantly, keep Washington's offense off the field... but the interception prevented that.Washington scored a TD.Denver (1:04)Cox kick to D 10, Bell 14 return (Walton). D 24 1–10 Elway 7 pass to Lang middle (Manley). D 31 2–3 Elway 10 shovel pass to Sewell (Coleman). Denver–third time out 23). D 41 1–10 Elway 23 pass to Jackson left (Walton). W 36 1–10 Elway pass to Nattiel left intercepted by Washington at W 21, Davis no return. Elway completed 3 passes against what probably amounted to a prevent defense, but then threw an interception with 7 seconds remaining in the half, with Denver on the edge of scoring range.So... was it Elway's fault that the defense couldn't keep Washington from scoring? Not directly. But it was certainly at least partly his fault that the offense could not get anything going for the entire quarter, which contributed to Washington's scoring by continually putting them right back on the field.Overall, Elway was 5/15 in the quarter with 2 interceptions and 1 sack. Of the 5 completions, one was short of the needed yardage on 3rd down and led to a punt, and 3 were against a prevent defense at the end of the half, followed by an interception. All in all, it's pretty much as opposite of clutch as you could find from a QB, especially from a QB who is supposedly known for performing well in the clutch.

 

[Tau837]

Super Bowl XXII: With a 10-0 lead and the ball on the Redskin 30, Elway takes an 18-yard sack, pushing Denver out of field goal range. Elway fails to lead another scoring drive the entire game while throwing 3 INTs.

Elway took a big sack, knocking the broncos out of FG range. Whoop-ti-do. As a "knowlegeable football fan", please explain to me how a QB is directly responsible for the other team scoring 35 points in a quarter.

Here's how. Elway starts a drive at the Denver 44 44 1–10 Elway pass to Winder incomplete. Play nullified and Washington penalized 15 for roughing the passer (Olkewicz).W 41 1–10 Winder run middle, no gain (Grant). END OF FIRST QUARTERenver 10, Washington 0Second quarterW 41 2–10 Elway pass to Nattiel underthrown, incomplete.W 41 3–10 Elway sacked, loss of 12, Play nullified and Washington penalized 5 for offsides (Mann).W 36 3–5 Elway shovel pass to Boddie dropped, incomplete.W 36 4–5 Horan 36 punt, touchback.So, three incompletions and a sack. Zero yards gained on offense. Just over 1:00 off the clock.Washington has a one-play long TD, then Denver gets the ball back.Denver (14:07)Cox kick 3 yards into end zone, Bell 21 return (Hamel).D 18 1–10 Lang 3 run middle (Grant).D 21 2–7 Elway pass to Winder left incomplete.D 21 3–7 Elway pass to Sewell batted down (Coleman), incomplete.D 21 4–7 Horan 43 punt, Green no return (Bell).Two incompletions, three and out, 1:08 off the clock.Washington has a 5-play drive, scoring to go up 14-10. Denver (10:15)Cox kick into end zone, touchback.D 20 1–10 Elway 26 shovel pass to Winder (Bowles).D 46 1–10 Winder 7 run middle (Kaufman).W 47 2–3 Elway pass to Nattiel batted away (Butz), incomplete.W 47 3–3 Elway 21 run evading pass rush (Green).W 26 1–10 Winder run left, no gain (Butz).W 26 2–10 Elway pass to Sewell dropped, incomplete.W 26 3–10 Elway pass to Johnson middle, incomplete.W 26 4–10 Karlis’s 43–yard field–goal attempt was wide left.Finally he completes a pass; a shovel pass, but we'll still give him credit. He also has an important run. But then the drive stalls with two incompletions and they miss a field goal.Washington has a long run for another TD, they're now up 21-10. Elway trying to get Denver back into the game 22 1–10 Lang 2 run off right tackle (Mann).D 24 2–8 Elway pass to Johnson overthrown, incomplete.D 24 3–8 Elway 7 pass to Sewell right (out of bounds).D 31 4–1 Horan 29 punt out of bounds at W 40.Another failure to move the ball, more good field position for Washington, who got another long pass TD to go up 28-10. Elway's responseenver (3:42)Cox kick into end zone, touchback.D 20 1–10 Winder 13 run around left end (Bowles).D 33 1–10 Winder 8 draw middle (Kaufman).D 41 2–2 Elway pass to Nattiel deep right intercepted by Washington at W 21, Wilburn no return.Washington has another quick drive and TD, going up 35-10 with 1:04 left and one timeout. A chance to get back within striking distanceenver (1:04)Cox kick to D 10, Bell 14 return (Walton).D 24 1–10 Elway 7 pass to Lang middle (Manley).D 31 2–3 Elway 10 shovel pass to Sewell (Coleman). Denver–third time out 23).D 41 1–10 Elway 23 pass to Jackson left (Walton).W 36 1–10 Elway pass to Nattiel left intercepted by Washington at W 21, Davis no return.So, how did Elway contribute to Washington outscoring Denver 35-0 in the second quarter? He went 5-15 with two interceptions; and before the last drive (which ended with his interception), he was 2-12 with one interception. Denver had the ball five times and achieved only 5 first downs. He completely sucked, squandering good field position and giving away good field position to Washington. Then in the third quarter he finished burying the team, by starting out with another interception. He also had a second interception overturned on a roughing the passer penalty. The defense failed, too, obviously. But once again, I don't see how this performance can be considered anything but putrid. I don't think the other QBs near the top of the "all-time" lists have meltdowns of this magnitude in clutch situations.

Posted mine before I saw this.

 

[SSOG]

I hate the horseface, but to question this comeback is ignorant

It's a good comeback, sure. But I don't think it's a great example of a clutch situation (there was 5:32 on the clock left when they got the ball) or of outstanding clutch performance (three incompletions and a sack).

Oh crap, I missed that part of the discussion where a 66% completion percentage was too low to qualify as "clutch". Okay, a comeback only counts as "clutch" if the QB posts a 100% completion percentage on the final drive.Look, Elway got the ball on the 1 1/2 yard line, on the road, in one of the rowdiest stadiums in the league, needing a TD. He famously responded to that situation by going to the huddle and saying "we've got them right where we want them", and then he even more famously delivered on that statement. Yes, there was 5:32 on the clock- "clutch" sometimes means milking every single last second off of the clock in the course of the comeback. If you get the ball back with 6 minutes left and drain all 6 minutes off the clock while going in for the gamewinner, that's clutch every bit as much as getting the ball back with 2 minutes left (and 3 timeouts, which is like having another minute and a half) and draining all 2 minutes.Besides, I don't know if you're comprehending the 98.5 yards thing. Tom Brady got the superbowl MVP against the Rams because of that "clutch" game-winning drive... that spanned all of 30 yards. Elway drove more than THREE TIMES as far as Brady did. And he did it on the road, and he did it while trailing instead of while tied. And then, after doing it, he did it again in overtime.But I'm sure you're right, and every other football fan in the history of football is wrong. I mean, it's not like "The Drive" is one of those events that's so memorable and amazing that it gets capital letters or anything.

Ive gotta say, the last guy I would have suspected who's position on this list would have been challenged so strongly would have been Elway. but the debate has been interesting. And he did melt away in some obviously giant Superbowl situations. But he's the all-time leader in 4th quarter comebacks. Saying he's not very clutch is almost like saying Brett Favre wasnt really all that great at winning football games.

I haven't been able to find a good data source for historical line scores, so I haven't been able to do a study yet, but I have a hypothesis that the number of 4th quarter comebacks a QB has (given a reasonable QB) is directly related to the number of opportunities that QB had for 4th quarter comebacks. Elway probably had more opportunities for 4th quarter comebacks (more games entering the 4th quarter losing by a small margin) than any other QB, so (if that's true), the fact that he has the most 4th quarter comebacks isn't really that notable.

The simplest metric I can think of would be Comeback Rate, or (Comebacks)/(Losses + Comebacks), which gives what percentage of the time a player was trailing in the 4th quarter and pulled out the win. By that measure, Montana pulled out the comeback 39.7% of the time, while Elway pulled it off 36.4% of the time. It'd be nice to come up with some sort of adjustment for "blown comebacks"- i.e. games that WOULD have classified as 4th-quarter comebacks if the defense hadn't blown the lead (such as Elway's loss to Montana on MNF- it's not HIS fault that wasn't comeback number 48, after all). Maybe an adjustment based on the rank of the defense in terms of points allowed? The average Joe Montana defense ranked 6th in the league in points allowed, and only twice in 12 years did they finish outside of the top 8. The average Elway defense ranked 11.6th. Is that enough to account for a 3.4% difference in comeback rate? I don't know, but I feel a very reasonable argument could be made. I mean, 3.4% difference is just 4 blown comebacks. I think it's very possible that Elway's weaker defenses cost him 4 more comebacks over the years compared to Montana (or, one more comeback every 4 years), especially since we already know one of them (the MNF game against Montana). Regardless of whether you feel the same way, you have to acknowledge that a very reasonable argument exists... and since everyone seems to agree that Montana was one of the most clutch QBs of all time, any metric that shows Elway comparing favorably to Montana validates his presence on the list rather nicely, I would think.No, he was not at all clutch in a 3-game sample size (his first 3 SBs), but that's precisely what it is- a 3-game sample size. He was plenty clutch in AFCCGs, and in other playoff games, and in regular season games, and in the 4th quarter. I don't get how the SB is suddenly the be-all, end-all to clutch postseason play. In the postseason, every single game is win or go home. Playing poorly in 3 SBs may not be clutch, but it's certainly more clutch than not even making those 3 SBs in the first place because you got eliminated already.

 

[CalBear]

No, he was not at all clutch in a 3-game sample size (his first 3 SBs), but that's precisely what it is- a 3-game sample size. He was plenty clutch in AFCCGs, and in other playoff games, and in regular season games, and in the 4th quarter. I don't get how the SB is suddenly the be-all, end-all to clutch postseason play. In the postseason, every single game is win or go home. Playing poorly in 3 SBs may not be clutch, but it's certainly more clutch than not even making those 3 SBs in the first place because you got eliminated already.

The post's subject is "Top 10 Clutch QBs of all time". I assert that performing well in the Super Bowl is a necessary criterion to be considered at the top of that list. There is no situation that is more clutch than the Super Bowl, so if you're going to be listed among the best, you must have performed well there. Elway performed poorly in the three losses and one of the wins, and didn't exactly blow the doors off in the other win, either. The fact remains, on the sport's biggest stage, he came up small, and that should keep him away from the top of this list.

 

[VonRomig]

Why not just start a thread titled, "Most patriotic helmets in the NFL".

Strange how many threads are started by Pat fans, whereas the subject matter showcases their team, coach, or QB at or near the top. I guess they are still trying to impress everyone else with just how well cheating does for a team.

And if I wanted any QB on my team with a single drive to win the game on the line I would go with Peyton Manning... of course his little brother did a nice job in the last Superbowl (against what many would like to think is the best team of all times).

Von

 

[Despyzer]

Strange how many threads are started by Pat fans, whereas the subject matter showcases their team, coach, or QB at or near the top. I guess they are still trying to impress everyone else with just how well cheating does for a team.

You may want to check those grapes. They seem to be a little sour.

 

[GregR_2]

No, he was not at all clutch in a 3-game sample size (his first 3 SBs), but that's precisely what it is- a 3-game sample size. He was plenty clutch in AFCCGs, and in other playoff games, and in regular season games, and in the 4th quarter. I don't get how the SB is suddenly the be-all, end-all to clutch postseason play. In the postseason, every single game is win or go home. Playing poorly in 3 SBs may not be clutch, but it's certainly more clutch than not even making those 3 SBs in the first place because you got eliminated already.

The post's subject is "Top 10 Clutch QBs of all time". I assert that performing well in the Super Bowl is a necessary criterion to be considered at the top of that list. There is no situation that is more clutch than the Super Bowl, so if you're going to be listed among the best, you must have performed well there. Elway performed poorly in the three losses and one of the wins, and didn't exactly blow the doors off in the other win, either. The fact remains, on the sport's biggest stage, he came up small, and that should keep him away from the top of this list.

The post's subject is "Top 10 Clutch QBs of all time'. I assert that not making the playoffs or losing in an earlier playoff round stops you from winning a championship as effectively as losing a Super Bowl does, and is further a lesser accomplishment than is having made the Super Bowl no matter how you performed there.If there is such a thing as a Clutch QB at all, don't try to sell me that winning multiple playoff games to get to the SB and then losing the SB should count worse against a player than should losing that first playoff game and not making it to the championship at all.

 

[Despyzer]

If there is such a thing as a Clutch QB at all, don't try to sell me that winning multiple playoff games to get to the SB and then losing the SB should count worse against a player than should losing that first playoff game and not making it to the championship at all.

Who is this other player that you are referring to that is losing all these playoff games and is considered so clutch?

 

[CalBear]

The post's subject is "Top 10 Clutch QBs of all time'. I assert that not making the playoffs or losing in an earlier playoff round stops you from winning a championship as effectively as losing a Super Bowl does, and is further a lesser accomplishment than is having made the Super Bowl no matter how you performed there.If there is such a thing as a Clutch QB at all, don't try to sell me that winning multiple playoff games to get to the SB and then losing the SB should count worse against a player than should losing that first playoff game and not making it to the championship at all.

I think in evaluating clutchness, most people would value a TD thrown in the fourth quarter more strongly than a TD thrown in the first quarter. Similarly, a TD thrown in the Super Bowl should count more than a TD thrown in the playoffs.And it's not just a question of winning and losing; it's possible for a QB to play a good game and lose. Elway didn't just lose those games, he played terribly in them. Peyton Manning lost in the divisional playoffs this year--but he threw for 400 yards and 3 TDs. But fine, let's call all the playoffs equal in terms of clutchness. In the playoffs in his career, Elway completed 54.6% of his passes (below his career average of 56.9%), with 27 TDs and 21 INTs. Montana completed 63.2% of his passes (at his career average) with 45 TDs and 21 INTs. Brady is at 62.5% with 26 TDs and 12 INTs. So including the rest of the playoffs doesn't help Elway's case much.

 

[GregR_2]

If there is such a thing as a Clutch QB at all, don't try to sell me that winning multiple playoff games to get to the SB and then losing the SB should count worse against a player than should losing that first playoff game and not making it to the championship at all.

Who is this other player that you are referring to that is losing all these playoff games and is considered so clutch?

Everyone. Everyone on the list lost in multiple playoff games or didn't even make the playoffs, or else they'd have been the Super Bowl champion every single year.I don't really have any particular horse in this race (because I think it's a silly race). I've got more interest in pointing out the absurdity of saying 2 Super Bowl wins and 4 other times winning all the round 1-3 playoff games and making but losing the Super Bowl should be a bigger negative than say, 2 Super Bowl wins and 4 other times losing during rounds 1-3 and ending their championship dreams before they ever make the Super Bowl.

 

[philipm34]

Montana 4-0 SB record, 11TD/0INT. Led his team on the longest drives in NFL Super Bowl history (92 yards--against the Bengals in both SB 16 and 23). The first one was the first Niners TD drive in SB history and the latter one was at the end of the game, where he led a Game Winning TD drive with under a minute to play, something that neither Elway or Marino, or Brady did for that matter, either, seeing as how he won every game by 3 points, so without a superb kicker, Brady never wins anything so that's take him out of the top 5 right now (and Montana never frittered away a 2-TD lead in a title game away like "Tom Terrific" did against the Colts--ever did. And also the fact the Niners beat down the Fins and Broncos by a combiined 93-26 makes it pretty evident to me that those two guys could never approach Montana on the field. But at least Montana was playing against great teams with fantastic QBs,m as opposed to Brady (Warner, Delhomme, McNabb) compared to (Elway, Marino, Ken Anderson and Boomer Esiaison, who were BOTH NFL MVP those years).

The List of the top 5 in no particularl order--though it is obvious I think that Montana is the best--should only include Montana, Bradshaw, Unitas, Starr and Otto Graham (10-0 in NFL Title Games!!! That is impressive no matter what era, to play in and win the NFL Title EVERY time is just unheard of)

Marino, Elway, Brady, etc. are all lesser QBs, at least at this stage in their careers.

 

[Hoss_Cartwright]

1. J. Unitas

And it's not even close!

A-men to that

 

[BigRed]

Glad someone mentioned Plunkett; at least a few get the gist of the category. This isn't "best QBs ever" (although in this case, I think the answer is the same: Unitas). It also isn't "most SB/playoff wins ever" (etc etc). And you sure as hell you can't justify anyone on stats. This isn't FF Land we're talking. You had to seem em play (more than a little) to have a valid opinion IMO.

Brady is of course a great QB, but being on this list strikes me as weak. I don't recall many comebacks or big "clutch" performances per se. NE mostly just wins outright.

 

[dirty_martini]

Glad someone mentioned Plunkett; at least a few get the gist of the category. This isn't "best QBs ever" (although in this case, I think the answer is the same: Unitas). It also isn't "most SB/playoff wins ever" (etc etc). And you sure as hell you can't justify anyone on stats. This isn't FF Land we're talking. You had to seem em play (more than a little) to have a valid opinion IMO.Brady is of course a great QB, but being on this list strikes me as weak. I don't recall many comebacks or big "clutch" performances per se. NE mostly just wins outright.

I don't think clutch = comeback. Clutch = making the play that needs to be made. Brady has made his share of plays when needed.I'd bump Young from the list myself. And Bradshaw should be on the list.

 

[49erBamBam52]

Don't mean to knock Montana, but he was purely a product of the system.Walsh's then unheard of "west coast offense". If he had gone to nearly any other team, he wouldn't be in this discussion.That was the genuis of Bill Walsh. He developed a system to suit his players, including the "weak" armed Montana.

cant quite buy this. sure, he played in a great system. but the 'system' doesnt make that clutch throw to Dwight Clark, on that unbelievable roll out under amazing pressure. the Walsh system didnt help him win a national title at Notre Dame, including a 38-10 win over #1 Texas in the Cotton Bowl(basically AT Texas). Systems are great. when run by the right players. So, a product of a system? to a degree. Purely? Not really a fair point.

And not to mention, who's to say that Montana didnt "make" the system (playing devils advocate here, love Walsh and all he did and stood for), and that every other successfull QB of a West Coast system was not modeled after "Joe Cool"Montana was a GREAT QB and was in no way ONLY the product of a system.BAM