What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

"Top 10 Players Not in the Hall of Fame" (1 Viewer)

Raider Nation

Raider Nation

Devil's Advocate
10) Ken Anderson

9) Steve Tasker

8) Alex Karras

7) Ricky Watters

6) Ken Stabler

5) Bob Hayes

4) Jim Marshall

3) Cris Carter

2) Derrick Thomas

1) Jerry Kramer

"Best of the Rest"... players who just missed making the list:

- Ray Guy

- Roger Craig

- Andre Reed

- Kevin Greene

- Randy Gradishar

- Tommy Nobis

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Steve Tasker ahead of Ken Anderson?

Seriously?

Anderson should be one on the list of best players not yet eligible nor in the HOF.

As far as QBs go, I'd put Boomer ahead of Stabler, even considering the edge in post-season performance to Stabler.

 
How is Andre Reed not in the top 10 when his stats compare favorably to Michael Irvin's and Art Monk's stats?????

Yes, I know... :deadhorse:

 
I watched the show and had to disagree with Tasker and Watters.

I still say boo to Irvin. A.Reed and C.Carter are >>>>>>> M.Irvin

 
I thought Derrick Thomas should have gotten in on his first shot. I favor putting dominant players over shorter periods in over guys that played a long time and accumulated good stats. Man I hated watching him destroy the Raiders time and time again.

 
Ricky Watters? Seriously? RICKY WATTERS?!?! First team AP All Pros- 0Second team AP All Pros- 0First team UPI All Conference- 0Second team UPI All Conference- 3What does this mean? Well, the AP names 2 first-team and 2 second-team All Pro RBs, meaning, according to the Associated Press, Ricky Watters was NEVER ONCE IN HIS ENTIRE CAREER one of the four best RBs in the entire NFL. The UPI names 2 first-team and 2 second-team All Conference RBs, meaning that Ricky Watters was NEVER ONCE IN HIS ENTIRE CAREER one of the two best RBs in his entire conference, and he only three times broke into the top 4. Remember, now, that there were 14 teams per conference back then, meaning almost a third of all starting RBs made the UPI's second-team all conference list or better. Pro-Football Weekly, The Sporting News, and the Pro Football Writers also kept All Pro lists, and Watters' name never once graced any of those lists at any point during his career. (a note: the UPI stopped naming All Conference lists after 1996, as far as I can tell, but I doubt Watters would have made any later lists since he couldn't even make the pro bowl after that point in his career).Watters was never once one of the top 2 RBs in the NFL. He was never once one of the top 4 RBs in the NFL. Watters was never once one of the top 2 RBs in his own conference. Hell, only three times in his career did Watters crack the top 4 RBs in his conference. Only three times in his career did he (barely) crack the list of the top 8 RBs in the NFL... how the hell does he crack the list of the top 8 players most deserving of HoF induction?Now, maybe you could argue that the reason he never made those lists is because he faced some brutal competition. Fair enough, I suppose... but Terrell Davis faced the exact same competition and posted 3 first-team AP All Pros, an NFL MVP, and two offensive PoYs. And this is completely ignoring the postseason difference between the two. Outrageous. Now, you want to argue that Terrell Davis doesn't belong on that list, that's fine... but if Davis doesn't, then Watters CERTAINLY doesn't.And Gradishar in the "honorable mentions"? The guy has the best statistics of any LB in history, headlined a defense with a nickname but no HoFers, a Superbowl appearance, a DPoY award, and scads of all pro honors. In his best season, Gradishar averaged more tackles per game than the #1 and #2 tacklers in the NFL last year... COMBINED. I mean, his numbers are so off-the-page above his peers that I doubt they'll never be matched. Ray Lewis is praised as a tackling machine for averaging 150 tackles per year. Pro-rate his numbers over a 16-game season and Gradishar, for his career, averaged 256. Unbelievable. I have yet to see anyone give me a single reason why Gradishar shouldn't have been in the Hall 20 years ago.And don't even get me started on Tombstone.

Raider Nation said:
Brock Middlebrook said:
Kevin Greene is the football equivalent to Latrell Spreewell. He should never get in.
Click to expand...
Explain.
Click to expand...
I think it's a shot at the fact that Kevin Greene was something of a mercenary in the latter half of his career. Great on the field, but not the kind of guy you'd want to build a team around at all.
 
Raider Nation said:
Chase Stuart said:
Steve Tasker ahead of Ken Anderson?

Seriously?

Anderson should be one on the list of best players not yet eligible nor in the HOF.
Click to expand...
:shrug: That's what they said. #5 coming up after the commercial.
Click to expand...
Chase wasn't saying that Anderson should be one of the guys on the list, he was saying that Ken Anderson should be *NUMBER ONE* on the list.Since the topic's on the HoF already, Football Outsiders recently did a two-part series on which franchise are over or under-represented in the Hall. Part one can be found here, and part two is here.

 
Although I always enjoyed watching Watters play, Roger Craig was much the better back. Can't believe Watters would be considered more HOF worthy than Craig....... :mellow:

 
What does Ray Guy have to do to be in the HOF? Are punters blacklisted? I understand it's not a glamorous position, but come on. Seven Pro Bowls, nine All Pros and three rings, all with the same team his entire career.

Remember that one-handed grab that saved the high snap in the Super Bowl? He deserves to be in Canton. :unsure: :shrug: :lmao:

 
Neil Beaufort Zod said:
What does Ray Guy have to do to be in the HOF? Are punters blacklisted? I understand it's not a glamorous position, but come on. Seven Pro Bowls, nine All Pros and three rings, all with the same team his entire career.

Remember that one-handed grab that saved the high snap in the Super Bowl? He deserves to be in Canton. :goodposting: :excited: :thumbup:
Click to expand...
What does Ray Guy have to do? Distinguishing himself from his peers would be a nice start.To begin with, Ray Guy is not a 9-time all-pro. A lot of those "All Pro" seasons were years where he didn't get anything more than a 2nd-team All Conference nod (which is basically nothing more than a pro bowl berth). Only three times was Guy a first-team AP All Pro. Not coincidentally, those came in the only three years that Guy led the league in yards per punt.

Consider this: Shane Lechler is a 3-time first-team All Pro who has 4 times led the league in yards per punt (and finished in the top 2 in 7 of his 8 seasons). Shane Lechler is also the #1 punter in NFL history in yards per punt (Guy, by the way, ranks 61st on the list). Is Shane Lechler a Hall of Famer? Because he's got as much of an argument as Ray Guy, in my opinion.

This post probably sums up better than any post before or since exactly why Ray Guy is not now, and should never be, a Hall of Famer.

 
SSOG said:
Neil Beaufort Zod said:
What does Ray Guy have to do to be in the HOF? Are punters blacklisted? I understand it's not a glamorous position, but come on. Seven Pro Bowls, nine All Pros and three rings, all with the same team his entire career.

Remember that one-handed grab that saved the high snap in the Super Bowl? He deserves to be in Canton. :football: :own3d: :lol:
Click to expand...
What does Ray Guy have to do? Distinguishing himself from his peers would be a nice start.To begin with, Ray Guy is not a 9-time all-pro. A lot of those "All Pro" seasons were years where he didn't get anything more than a 2nd-team All Conference nod (which is basically nothing more than a pro bowl berth). Only three times was Guy a first-team AP All Pro. Not coincidentally, those came in the only three years that Guy led the league in yards per punt.

Consider this: Shane Lechler is a 3-time first-team All Pro who has 4 times led the league in yards per punt (and finished in the top 2 in 7 of his 8 seasons). Shane Lechler is also the #1 punter in NFL history in yards per punt (Guy, by the way, ranks 61st on the list). Is Shane Lechler a Hall of Famer? Because he's got as much of an argument as Ray Guy, in my opinion.

This post probably sums up better than any post before or since exactly why Ray Guy is not now, and should never be, a Hall of Famer.
Click to expand...
With all due respect, I think you're looking at it like a fantasy owner. No, his numbers aren't at the top of the list. And if you survey enough punters, you can come up with guys with a better touchback ratio, or more kicks inside the 20, or whatever. But Guy IS a nine-time All Pro. The link you posted to is interesting, but I think makes my case more than the opposition's. These guys with the better stats: How many punts did they have blocked? How many have been returned for touchdowns? The punter isn't to blame for all of that, certianly, but he definitely plays a role. Didn't Randall Cunningham have a 90+ yard punt? It's not all about the raw numbers. And again, I'll mention that one play in the Super Bowl-- before last year I think it was the best catch in Super Bowl history. As far as hang time goes, did they even measure it in his day?

I think if you put the entire package together, Guy deserves a spot in the Hall.

Edit to add: I don't want to ignore Lechler's contributions. If he plays for several more years at a high level he should be considered for the Hall of Fame. I have no bias against kickers or punters.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Of the guys I have seen:

9) Steve Tasker

7) Ricky Watters

6) Ken Stabler

- Kevin Greene

- Ray Guy

I am fine with none of these guys getting in. I don't think a punter should ever get in, but if they do vote one in, Guy is as fine a choice as any. Stabler? Nah. Watters? Please. I won't even comment on Tasker.

Derrick Thomas

Andre Reed

I'd be fine with either of these guys getting in. Not sure if Reed is an all-timer, or just a good player in a great situation. Funny, but the argument against Greene, is the same argument against Thomas. But Thomas was better, and I think IS a Hall of Famer. the game changes, and the voters need to change as well. The 3-4 defense produced a different kind of LB, and Thomas is one of the best 3-4 DL ever.

Roger Craig

Randy Gradishar

Cris Carter

I'd vote for all these guys. But there's a bunch of guys that I'd vote in before any more WRs. It's just ridiculous.

 
massraider said:
Of the guys I have seen:

9) Steve Tasker

7) Ricky Watters

6) Ken Stabler

- Kevin Greene

- Ray Guy

I am fine with none of these guys getting in. I don't think a punter should ever get in, but if they do vote one in, Guy is as fine a choice as any. Stabler? Nah. Watters? Please. I won't even comment on Tasker.

Derrick Thomas

Andre Reed

I'd be fine with either of these guys getting in. Not sure if Reed is an all-timer, or just a good player in a great situation. Funny, but the argument against Greene, is the same argument against Thomas. But Thomas was better, and I think IS a Hall of Famer. the game changes, and the voters need to change as well. The 3-4 defense produced a different kind of LB, and Thomas is one of the best 3-4 DL ever.

Roger Craig

Randy Gradishar

Cris Carter

I'd vote for all these guys. But there's a bunch of guys that I'd vote in before any more WRs. It's just ridiculous.
Click to expand...
Why do you feel that way? If the position is important enough to designate, why shouldn't the best of the best be recognized? It's obviously important to the game, right? So why ignore it in the HOF?
 
Neil Beaufort Zod said:
With all due respect, I think you're looking at it like a fantasy owner. No, his numbers aren't at the top of the list. And if you survey enough punters, you can come up with guys with a better touchback ratio, or more kicks inside the 20, or whatever. But Guy IS a nine-time All Pro.
Click to expand...
No he isn't- he's a 3-time All Pro. See?
 
Neil Beaufort Zod said:
massraider said:
Of the guys I have seen:

9) Steve Tasker

7) Ricky Watters

6) Ken Stabler

- Kevin Greene

- Ray Guy

I am fine with none of these guys getting in. I don't think a punter should ever get in, but if they do vote one in, Guy is as fine a choice as any. Stabler? Nah. Watters? Please. I won't even comment on Tasker.

Derrick Thomas

Andre Reed

I'd be fine with either of these guys getting in. Not sure if Reed is an all-timer, or just a good player in a great situation. Funny, but the argument against Greene, is the same argument against Thomas. But Thomas was better, and I think IS a Hall of Famer. the game changes, and the voters need to change as well. The 3-4 defense produced a different kind of LB, and Thomas is one of the best 3-4 DL ever.

Roger Craig

Randy Gradishar

Cris Carter

I'd vote for all these guys. But there's a bunch of guys that I'd vote in before any more WRs. It's just ridiculous.
Click to expand...
Why do you feel that way? If the position is important enough to designate, why shouldn't the best of the best be recognized? It's obviously important to the game, right? So why ignore it in the HOF?
Click to expand...
I don't think punters, long snappers, ST gunners, or holders should go in the Hall. I just don't think that kind of job is Hall of Fame worthy. I am okay with kickers going in, and I am sure that isn't very consistent on my part. I think I feel that way because I just think there will always be a player I like better than whatever punter was nominated. I mean, Roger Craig vs. Ray Guy? Rickey Jackson vs. Ray Guy?

However, if Steve Tasker ever does get in, then I look forward to the Bennie Thompson and Jim "Crash" Jensen debates.

 
SSOG said:
Neil Beaufort Zod said:
With all due respect, I think you're looking at it like a fantasy owner. No, his numbers aren't at the top of the list. And if you survey enough punters, you can come up with guys with a better touchback ratio, or more kicks inside the 20, or whatever. But Guy IS a nine-time All Pro.
Click to expand...
No he isn't- he's a 3-time All Pro. See?
Click to expand...
I'm afraid you're incorrect. He's a three-time FIRST-TEAM All Pro. But I doubt that makes or breaks either of our arguments. Do you think punters should be in the Hall or do you just think Guy isn't worthy?
 
massraider said:
Neil Beaufort Zod said:
massraider said:
Of the guys I have seen:

9) Steve Tasker

7) Ricky Watters

6) Ken Stabler

- Kevin Greene

- Ray Guy

I am fine with none of these guys getting in. I don't think a punter should ever get in, but if they do vote one in, Guy is as fine a choice as any. Stabler? Nah. Watters? Please. I won't even comment on Tasker.

Derrick Thomas

Andre Reed

I'd be fine with either of these guys getting in. Not sure if Reed is an all-timer, or just a good player in a great situation. Funny, but the argument against Greene, is the same argument against Thomas. But Thomas was better, and I think IS a Hall of Famer. the game changes, and the voters need to change as well. The 3-4 defense produced a different kind of LB, and Thomas is one of the best 3-4 DL ever.

Roger Craig

Randy Gradishar

Cris Carter

I'd vote for all these guys. But there's a bunch of guys that I'd vote in before any more WRs. It's just ridiculous.
Click to expand...
Why do you feel that way? If the position is important enough to designate, why shouldn't the best of the best be recognized? It's obviously important to the game, right? So why ignore it in the HOF?
Click to expand...
I don't think punters, long snappers, ST gunners, or holders should go in the Hall. I just don't think that kind of job is Hall of Fame worthy. I am okay with kickers going in, and I am sure that isn't very consistent on my part. I think I feel that way because I just think there will always be a player I like better than whatever punter was nominated. I mean, Roger Craig vs. Ray Guy? Rickey Jackson vs. Ray Guy?

However, if Steve Tasker ever does get in, then I look forward to the Bennie Thompson and Jim "Crash" Jensen debates.
Click to expand...
Well, ST players and long-snappers aren't really their own positions. Those guys are QBs or on ST they're receivers, etc. They just only see the field on special teams. The punter is a designated spot for every team and they don't really do anything else. I do agree that there are always names we'd probably like to see instead of the punters. But I think they should be represented. The HOF should be a place where people can learn about the best in football. That has to include punters, I think.

 
Neil Beaufort Zod said:
SSOG said:
Neil Beaufort Zod said:
With all due respect, I think you're looking at it like a fantasy owner. No, his numbers aren't at the top of the list. And if you survey enough punters, you can come up with guys with a better touchback ratio, or more kicks inside the 20, or whatever. But Guy IS a nine-time All Pro.
Click to expand...
No he isn't- he's a 3-time All Pro. See?
Click to expand...
I'm afraid you're incorrect. He's a three-time FIRST-TEAM All Pro. But I doubt that makes or breaks either of our arguments. Do you think punters should be in the Hall or do you just think Guy isn't worthy?
Click to expand...
I have nothing against a punter making the HoF, I just think he'd have to reach a much higher threshold of greatness than someone at another position. Punters simply don't contribute as much to their team as regular members of the offense and defense. Ray Guy, in my opinion, does not stand out enough from his peers (except, of course, in terms of hype). If he were an 8-time first-team All Pro, then absolutely, I'd be a lot more receptive to arguments... but there are QUARTERBACKS with comparable awards who I don't think are HoF caliber. For instance, Rich Gannon and Kurt Warner are both two-time AP All Pros, and they have 3 league MVP awards between them, and I think both are borderline cases for the HoF (Gannon is a no, Warner is a... maybe. I have a hard time making up my mind on Warner). A punter must FAR EXCEED the standard I set for a QB in order for me to consider him a HoFer. As of yet, I haven't seen a punter that has separated himself that far from his peers.
 
SSOG said:
Neil Beaufort Zod said:
SSOG said:
Neil Beaufort Zod said:
With all due respect, I think you're looking at it like a fantasy owner. No, his numbers aren't at the top of the list. And if you survey enough punters, you can come up with guys with a better touchback ratio, or more kicks inside the 20, or whatever. But Guy IS a nine-time All Pro.
Click to expand...
No he isn't- he's a 3-time All Pro. See?
Click to expand...
I'm afraid you're incorrect. He's a three-time FIRST-TEAM All Pro. But I doubt that makes or breaks either of our arguments. Do you think punters should be in the Hall or do you just think Guy isn't worthy?
Click to expand...
I have nothing against a punter making the HoF, I just think he'd have to reach a much higher threshold of greatness than someone at another position. Punters simply don't contribute as much to their team as regular members of the offense and defense. Ray Guy, in my opinion, does not stand out enough from his peers (except, of course, in terms of hype). If he were an 8-time first-team All Pro, then absolutely, I'd be a lot more receptive to arguments... but there are QUARTERBACKS with comparable awards who I don't think are HoF caliber. For instance, Rich Gannon and Kurt Warner are both two-time AP All Pros, and they have 3 league MVP awards between them, and I think both are borderline cases for the HoF (Gannon is a no, Warner is a... maybe. I have a hard time making up my mind on Warner). A punter must FAR EXCEED the standard I set for a QB in order for me to consider him a HoFer. As of yet, I haven't seen a punter that has separated himself that far from his peers.
Click to expand...
If you went to Canton and didn't know anything about professional football...would you even know there was such a thing as a punter. I understand that they aren't as important as a QB or WR. But just as a guard isn't flashy but can make or break a team, I think punters can make the difference in a game. I think if the HOF reflects the best in professional football, that should include those who really stand out among their peers. I think Guy does qualify, based on his longevity, success and consistency. Oh, did I mention that play in the Super Bowl? What a momentum-changer that could have been. But even if it isn't Guy, I think somebody in the league's history has to be worthy of mention at every position. Otherwise...why pay any of them anything but the league minimum?

 
golfguy said:
alright my main man ricky running watters :-) loved to watch him play back in the day.
Click to expand...
I am sorry Ricky Waters does not deserve to be on this list. He was a consistently solid, but only above average RB that was never elite. Think of a guy who was always the 5th best RB type.
 
Big said:
Chase Stuart said:
I suspect Terrell Davis will rank pretty high on this list.
Click to expand...
Very good perception. You suspect something about a list that is already posted, but yet the thing you suspect is no where near the list?
Click to expand...
At the time he typed that, the program was airing live for the first time, and only two names had been revealed.Sorry about screwing up your stellar sarcasm.
 
Where are Russ Grimm or Joe Jacoby? Sure I'm a homer, but unless I'm mistaken, there aren't any offensive linemen on this list, which is typical of the HOF which is overwhelmingly weighted in favor of the glamor posistions rather than the guys up front who make it all happen.

 
I think it's a crying shame that Ray Guy is not in the HOF. He was and still is the most dominate player at his position. Special teams and field positioning became important when he entered the NFL, as he clearly made a difference.

 
DCThunder said:
Where are Russ Grimm or Joe Jacoby? Sure I'm a homer, but unless I'm mistaken, there aren't any offensive linemen on this list, which is typical of the HOF which is overwhelmingly weighted in favor of the glamor posistions rather than the guys up front who make it all happen.
Click to expand...
For that matter, where's Dermontti Dawson, who was AP 1st team All-Pro more times than Grimm and Jacoby combined?
 
Evilgrin 72 said:
DCThunder said:
Where are Russ Grimm or Joe Jacoby? Sure I'm a homer, but unless I'm mistaken, there aren't any offensive linemen on this list, which is typical of the HOF which is overwhelmingly weighted in favor of the glamor posistions rather than the guys up front who make it all happen.
Click to expand...
For that matter, where's Dermontti Dawson, who was AP 1st team All-Pro more times than Grimm and Jacoby combined?
Click to expand...
Very good call.I think that it porbably isn't a travesty yet. Hasn't been eligible very long has he?

 
Drew Pearson.

Stellar enough career (albeit from a different era).

Super Bowls.

Pro Bowls.

Made many spectacular clutch catches throughout his career. Staubach's key receiver (and Danny White).

Memorable winning TD catch in closing seconds on Thanksgiving Day 1974 from Clint Longley (what a game that was).

Caught "the inaugural Hail Mary pass" in a similar fashion in '75 playoffs vs. Minnesota (Cowboys won 17-14).

Before then, TV announcers simply called it "the bomb" when such a play was executed. Now it's football lore. We hear it every Sunday.

For the younger ones among us that aren't aware, after that Vikings playoff game Roger Staubach was asked in the locker room what his final thoughts were in that last pass to Drew Pearson with 24 seconds left. Staubach simply replied, "I just winged it as far as I could and said a quick Hail Mary."

I'll never forget it!

That is where the term "Hail Mary" came from that we hear nearly every football Sunday.

ETA: Link to play-

 
Last edited by a moderator:
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Yogibear
Pro Football Hall of Fame Class of 2025 Discussion Thread
2
Replies
68
Views
3K
Tau837
Tau837
Yogibear
Pro Football Hall of Fame Class of 2024 Discussion Thread
2 3 4
Replies
167
Views
9K
ignatiusjreilly
ignatiusjreilly
Yogibear
Roger Craig, Tom Coughlin & Mike Shanahan named finalists for Pro Football Hall of Fame Class of 2024
Replies
11
Views
1K
Hot Sauce Guy
Hot Sauce Guy

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 1 (members: 0, guests: 1)
Back
Top