Top 100 Cincinnati Reds of All-Time (1 Viewer)

[On The Rocks]

It has been fun following this list in the off-season....(i know - i know.... the Reds off-season begins after the All-Star break).

Top 100 Reds of All-Time

rank Player

100 Fred Toney

99 Billy Myers

98 Brandon Phillips

97 Danny Graves

96 Heinie Peitz

95 Sam Crawford

94 Chuck Dressen

93 Ivey Wingo

92 Wally Post

91 Rube Bressler

90 Greasy Neale

89 Ray Mueller

88 Aaron Boone

87 Dummy Hoy

86 Clay Carroll

85 Hughie Critz

84 Billy Werber

83 Tom Browning

82 John Franco

81 Bobby Adams

80 Germany Smith

79 Don Gullett

78 Tommy Corcoran

77 Tom Seaver

76 Hal Morris

75 Johnny Edwards

74 Dave Parker

73 Paul O'Neill

72 Harry Steinfeldt

71 Cesar Geronimo

70 Dusty Miller

69 Ed Bailey

68 Hans Lobert

67 Pat Duncan

66 Gary Nolan

65 Chris Sabo

64 Jim O'Toole

63 **** Hoblitzel

62 Ron Oester

61 Grady Hatton

60 Bubbles Hargrave

59 Ken Raffensberger

58 Bobby Tolan

57 Arlie Latham

56 Bob Purkey

55 Reggie Sanders

54 Roy McMillan

53 Johnny Vander Meer

52 Bob Bescher

51 Jake Daubert

50 Ewell Blackwell

49 Lee May

48 Ken Griffey Jr.

47 Mario Soto

46 Joe Nuxhall

45 Leo Cardenas

44 Ted Breitenstein

43 Tony Mullane

42 Curt Walker

41 Johnny Temple

40 Mike Mitchell

39 Jose Rijo

38 Miller Huggins

37 Sean Casey

36 Jake Beckley

35 Bug Holliday

34 Billy Rhines

33 Jim Maloney

32 Bob Ewing

31 Dan Driessen

30 Gus Bell

29 Pete Donohue

28 Ernie Lombardi

27 Ival Goodman

26 Red Lucas

25 Cy Seymour

24 Lonny Frey

23 Adam Dunn

22 Paul Derringer

21 Ken Griffey Sr.

20 Frank McCormick

19 Bid McPhee

18 Eric Davis

17 Noodles Hahn

16 Ted Kluszewski

15 Frank Dwyer

14 Eppa Rixey

13 Dolf Luque

12 George Foster

11 Bucky Walters

10 Dave Concepcion

9 Vada Pinson

8 Heinie Groh

7 Edd Roush

6 Tony Perez

5 Frank Robinson

4 Barry Larkin

3 Joe Morgan

Who will #1 be? Bench or Rose?I would lean toward Bench since he is arguably the best all time at his position. But Rose is Rose and in Cincinnati - he is King.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

96 Heinie Peitz 93 Ivey Wingo 90 Greasy Neale 87 Dummy Hoy 85 Hughie Critz 80 Germany Smith 60 Bubbles Hargrave 35 Bug Holliday 17 Noodles Hahn 14 Eppa Rixey 13 Dolf Luque 8 Heinie Groh

Are these real people or are you just making up names?

 

[Please See Mine]

96 Heinie Peitz 93 Ivey Wingo 90 Greasy Neale 87 Dummy Hoy 85 Hughie Critz 80 Germany Smith 60 Bubbles Hargrave 35 Bug Holliday 17 Noodles Hahn 14 Eppa Rixey 13 Dolf Luque 8 Heinie Groh

Are these real people or are you just making up names?

Eppa Rixey is real and I guess that this is the same Greasy Neale who coached the Eagles, so he is probably real too. Pretty sure the rest are made up though.

 

[Jene Bramel]

It'll be Pete.

Adam Dunn at 23? ORLY?

Also, if you haven't picked it up yet, Joe Posnanski's Machine is a really good read.

 

[Koya]

What is the criteria? Most impact? Best player?

If it is the latter, Rose should be no higher than third. Bench is the best ever at his position and Morgan was a better 2B than Rose was a utility all over the place guy. Rose was a very good player, but he compiled a lot... and a lot of singles. I could be convinced otherwise I suppose.

Obviously a guy like Frank Robinson gets hit because he had great years elsewhere.

 

[On The Rocks]

Here is a note that will make any Reds fan sick:

The David Wells Trade 1995.

Sickening

by Chad Dotson on December 12th, 2009 in Reds - General

Red Reporter has done a great job of ruining my weekend by linking to this New York Times article from 1995. Don’t go read it on an empty stomach.

Remember when Jim Bowden was GM of our beloved Reds and he traded David Wells to the Orioles for speedy center fielder Curtis Goodwin? Goodwin, of course, was the original Corey Patterson/Willy Taveras, and he was a complete flop. (And we all knew he was going to be a flop at the time; I need to go look at the Reds Listserv archives to see what the immediate reaction was to that trade.)

So, yeah, bad trade…but it gets worse. Evidently, Bowden coveted Goodwin, so he turned down an offer from the New York Yankees. The Yankees were offering a couple of their young prospects:

Mariano Rivera and Jorge Posada.

I think I just threw up in my mouth a little. Jim “Leatherpants” Bowden continues to haunt us.

 

[oso diablo]

It has been fun following this list in the off-season....(i know - i know.... the Reds off-season begins after the All-Star break).

Top 100 Reds of All-Time

52 Bob Bescher

40 Mike Mitchell

35 Bug Holliday

34 Billy Rhines

27 Ival Goodman

15 Frank Dwyer

what can you tell me about these guys? never really heard these names before (didn't recognize many others among the 50-100, either).

 

[Drunken Cowboy]

What is the criteria? Most impact? Best player?If it is the latter, Rose should be no higher than third. Bench is the best ever at his position and Morgan was a better 2B than Rose was a utility all over the place guy. Rose was a very good player, but he compiled a lot... and a lot of singles. I could be convinced otherwise I suppose.Obviously a guy like Frank Robinson gets hit because he had great years elsewhere.

He had 746 doubles. That is 2nd all time. In his 19 years with the reds his slg% was 425

 

[Please See Mine]

Here is a note that will make any Reds fan sick:

The David Wells Trade 1995.

Sickening

by Chad Dotson on December 12th, 2009 in Reds - General

Red Reporter has done a great job of ruining my weekend by linking to this New York Times article from 1995. Don’t go read it on an empty stomach.

Remember when Jim Bowden was GM of our beloved Reds and he traded David Wells to the Orioles for speedy center fielder Curtis Goodwin? Goodwin, of course, was the original Corey Patterson/Willy Taveras, and he was a complete flop. (And we all knew he was going to be a flop at the time; I need to go look at the Reds Listserv archives to see what the immediate reaction was to that trade.)

So, yeah, bad trade…but it gets worse. Evidently, Bowden coveted Goodwin, so he turned down an offer from the New York Yankees. The Yankees were offering a couple of their young prospects:

Mariano Rivera and Jorge Posada.

I think I just threw up in my mouth a little. Jim “Leatherpants” Bowden continues to haunt us.

yeesh.but of course what this story really underscores is how silly people get when debating these prospects in trades. No one has any clue who will be what.

 

[Eephus]

Considering it's the oldest franchise in professional baseball, it's not that impressive of a list

 

[Michael Brown]

Bench should be an obvious case at #1 here. No brainer.

 

[On The Rocks]

Considering it's the oldest franchise in professional baseball, it's not that impressive of a list

My guess is after you get passed the top 20 - you won't be overly impressed with the top 100 from any organization.

 

[Koya]

What is the criteria? Most impact? Best player?If it is the latter, Rose should be no higher than third. Bench is the best ever at his position and Morgan was a better 2B than Rose was a utility all over the place guy. Rose was a very good player, but he compiled a lot... and a lot of singles. I could be convinced otherwise I suppose.Obviously a guy like Frank Robinson gets hit because he had great years elsewhere.

He had 746 doubles. That is 2nd all time. In his 19 years with the reds his slg% was 425

Like I said, I could be convinced... but for 5 or 6 years, Morgan was straight stupid, ESPECIALLY as a 2B.

 

[boubucarow]

Considering it's the oldest franchise in professional baseball, it's not that impressive of a list

My guess is after you get passed the top 20 - you won't be overly impressed with the top 100 from any organization.

You might be right generally, but I wouldn't say any organization.

 

[Chairshot]

Morgan is far and away the best 2B of the modern era. No one else is even really close.

Bench was awesome but you could at least make a legit argument that Berra was as good or better.

Rose had a great cumulative career but was no where near the player Morgan or Bench were.

I say Morgan hands down.

 

[Eephus]

Considering it's the oldest franchise in professional baseball, it's not that impressive of a list

My guess is after you get passed the top 20 - you won't be overly impressed with the top 100 from any organization.

You might be right generally, but I wouldn't say any organization.

sounds like a case for the long-discussed WIS draft-a-franchise league format

 

[Michael Brown]

Morgan is far and away the best 2B of the modern era. No one else is even really close.Bench was awesome but you could at least make a legit argument that Berra was as good or better.Rose had a great cumulative career but was no where near the player Morgan or Bench were.I say Morgan hands down.

Without looking at stats, I feel like guys such as Alomar, Sandberg, Kent have to at least be close offensively and Alomar/Sandberg were right near the top defensively too. I'll go check out the #'s.Edit: Alomar and Sandberg weren't close offensively, and Kent wasn't close defensively. Final tally = you are right.

 

[Chairshot]

Morgan is far and away the best 2B of the modern era. No one else is even really close.

Bench was awesome but you could at least make a legit argument that Berra was as good or better.

Rose had a great cumulative career but was no where near the player Morgan or Bench were.

I say Morgan hands down.

Without looking at stats, I feel like guys such as Alomar, Sandberg, Kent have to at least be close offensively and Alomar/Sandberg were right near the top defensively too. I'll go check out the #'s.Edit: Alomar and Sandberg weren't close offensively, and Kent wasn't close defensively. Final tally = you are right.

I'm far from a Reds fan and I pretty much hate Joe Morgan as an announcer, but I don't think most baseball fans realize just how good this guy was as a player. He was an unbelievable baseball player.During his best 5 years (by my estimation, 1972-76), he averaged 29 2B, 22 HR, 85 RBI and 62 SBs. He had a slash line of .303/.431/.499, which is unheard of for a 2B for a unreal 163 OPS+. And he won 2 MVPs on 2 WS winning teams, while being generally considered the best defensive 2B in the game (4 GG).

There really hasn't been any one like him. The deeper you dig into his stats, the more it's clear just how good he was.

 

[On The Rocks]

Morgan is far and away the best 2B of the modern era. No one else is even really close.

Bench was awesome but you could at least make a legit argument that Berra was as good or better.

Rose had a great cumulative career but was no where near the player Morgan or Bench were.

I say Morgan hands down.

Without looking at stats, I feel like guys such as Alomar, Sandberg, Kent have to at least be close offensively and Alomar/Sandberg were right near the top defensively too. I'll go check out the #'s.Edit: Alomar and Sandberg weren't close offensively, and Kent wasn't close defensively. Final tally = you are right.

I'm far from a Reds fan and I pretty much hate Joe Morgan as an announcer, but I don't think most baseball fans realize just how good this guy was as a player. He was an unbelievable baseball player.During his best 5 years (by my estimation, 1972-76), he averaged 29 2B, 22 HR, 85 RBI and 62 SBs. He had a slash line of .303/.431/.499, which is unheard of for a 2B for a unreal 163 OPS+. And he won 2 MVPs on 2 WS winning teams, while being generally considered the best defensive 2B in the game (4 GG).

There really hasn't been any one like him. The deeper you dig into his stats, the more it's clear just how good he was.

From the link in the original post:

Of the 10 best individual seasons by a Reds player since the advent of the live-ball era, five of them belong to Joe Morgan (the ’72-’76 years). Since the "prime" rank is used to describe how good a player was over his best five consecutive seasons, a #1 ranking for Morgan in that category still probably understates his greatness over that stretch (Morgan’s prime score is 22% higher than the #2 guy). Upon being traded to the Reds after the 1971 season, Morgan had already turned 28 years of age, but was probably seen as an underwhelming acquisition: he had only barely topped a .400 slugging percentage in three distinct seasons, had relatively low batting averages, and had only made two all-star teams. This was worth giving up Lee May? Credit the Reds for taking the damaging effects of the Astrodome into account, however, as Morgan had a very respectable 121 OPS+ to that point of his career. Still, I have a hard time believing that the Reds’ brass had any idea just how good a player they were getting.

Words can’t possibly describe this magnificent 5-year stretch, so let’s just lay out the numbers. Remember that this is coming from a 5’7", slick-fielding 2nd baseman… 1972: 292/417/435 (149 OPS+), 122 runs, 73 RBI, 58 SB, 115 BB, 44 K. 1973: 290/406/493 (154 OPS+), 116 runs, 82 RBI, 67 SB, 111 BB, 61 K. 1974: 293/427/494 (159 OPS+), 107 runs, 67 RBI, 58 SB, 120 BB, 69 K. 1975: 327/466/508 (169 OPS+), 107 runs, 94 RBI, 67 SB, 132 BB, 52 K. 1976: 320/444/576 (187 OPS+), 113 runs, 111 RBI, 60 SB, 114 BB, 41 K. Strangely, he was never that good a postseason performer (lifetime postseason OPS of 671), but that’s pretty much the only transgression., although if he had hit at all in the ’72 World Series, the Reds might have won (Morgan had only one hit in the four losses to the A’s, all of which were one-run losses).

Morgan had a really good 1977 season, albeit not quite at the level of the previous five years, then fell down to the status of merely good, with OPS+’s of 105 and 107 in 1978 and ’79, respectively, and Morgan was granted free agency after the 1979 season—leaving the Reds with Junior Kennedy and Ron Oester to man his vacated position as he signed with the Astros. In terms of the brightest star ever to grace Cincy’s ballfields, Morgan is a strong #1 with a cushion—and we’re unlikely to see anything like it in Redsland again. His final numbers for his Reds tenure: just under 5000 plate appearances, over 400 stolen bases, 147 OPS+, 5 Gold Glove awards.

 

[On The Rocks]

Johnny Bench - #2 All Time

Bench is on the short list of the greatest catcher of all time, so there seems little point in what-if scenarios. And the grueling nature of catching makes long-term projections seem suspect. Nonetheless, Johnny Bench—through his age 24 season in 1972—had not only two seasons in which he had 40 or more home runs, but he had also just doubled his walk rate, drawing 100 free passes in 1972. Under typical scenarios and aging patterns, this should have meant some amazing things—if I scale down Bench’s projections from a 1972 vantage point to match his actual playing time over the years due to injuries, etc., he still projected to hit 500 home runs, instead of his actual 389.

As the story goes, a spot was found on an x-ray of Bench’s lungs during the ’72 season, and while the tumor turned out to be benign, he still needed surgery, which—again, as the claim goes—severely impacted Bench’s power at the plate. Maybe it’s true, maybe it’s wishful conjecture from a wistful athlete who happened to peak early, but the fact remains that the early part of Bench’s career was basically meant to blow your mind. Despite being hampered by injury in 1971, Bench had 154 home runs and 512 RBI before turning 25—both representing better starts than Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, or Reggie Jackson, all of whom also got early career starts. For all the impressive hitting stats, by all accounts Bench revolutionized the catcher position defensively. Most fielding statistics cannot possibly do his reputation justice; perhaps only the caught stealing percentages get us close (routinely around 50%, was 13 years into his career before the CS% dropped below 40%), as well as the ten consecutive Gold Glove awards.

The data paints a picture of Bench as a multi-dimensional athlete, especially compared to the prototypical catcher: Bench hit at least one triple in every season until 1979, he was good for a handful of steals every year—peaking at 13 in 1976, and he routinely spelled his legs by playing other positions 20-30 times a year (even playing center field a couple times in 1970). A Cincinnati Red for his entire 17-year career, Bench was productive almost until the end. 1980 was his last season as a regular catcher, crouching behind the plate in 105 games, and hitting for a 123 OPS+. A severely shortened season in 1981 (even beyond the effects of the player strike) left him as a part-time first baseman with a great bat (141 OPS+). The final two years were mostly spent at 3rd base (to poor result, defensively) and hitting right around league average. His legacy is as another lifetime Red, with a cumulative OPS+ of 126 across 8600 plate appearances, with a pair of peak seasons to rival Morgan’s finest.

 

[Eephus]

1. Paul Householder

 

[Koya]

This man love for the epitome of sleeze Rose confounds me. Guy deserves so little respect for a game he totally disrespected - not to mention the fans.

 

[Bogart]

[

65 Chris Sabo 48 Ken Griffey Jr. 37 Sean Casey 23 Adam Dunn 18 Eric Davis 4 Barry Larkin

My favorite Reds on the list. Davis and Sabo probably top the list (Griffey will always reside in Seattle for me.) I have an incredible amount of Eric Davis baseball cards....and I have even more of Sabo.

 

[Spartans Rule]

If Joe Morgan wasn't a great base stealer and had played OF instead of 2B... it'd be a close call between him and Rose.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

Would it be fair to say that Johnny Bench = Joe Mauer?

 

[Jene Bramel]

I don't agree with Morgan and Bench not being 1a and 1b either. But Rose has always been a hometown favorite, regardless of his transgressions. He was a local boy who epitomized what most local fans wanted to see in a ballplayer. Brash toughness, play and hustle every day, nearly always around in the clutch, do anything to win, etc. Bench never connected in quite the same way. He was seen as standoffish and not the hometown boy. Morgan wasn't appreciated in the same way. He had nearly everything that Rose had, but wasn't around as long and, again, wasn't from down the street.

These lists almost always end the same way as a result.

 

[Eephus]

Would it be fair to say that Johnny Bench = Joe Mauer?

Bench had more power. Mauer hits for higher average. Their OPS+ are in the same ballpark although Bench's best seasons are better than anything Mauer has done yet. One thing that stands out on Bench's resume is his workload. He consistently caught 130+ games and played in the field for 20 more. He caught 1301 innings as a 20 year old in 1968. Catchers did things like that back then--Jim Sundberg routinely caught 1200 innings/season in the Texas heat. Mauer has the advantage of being able to DH, which will hopefully prolong his career.Bench also has the advantages of a Hall of Fame comb-over and the Baseball Bunch

 

[Spartans Rule]

Their OPS+ are in the same ballpark although Bench's best seasons are better than anything Mauer has done yet.

Mauer's 2009 had an OPS+ of 170, which was better than Bench's best year (166 in 1972). Have to think last year will be an outlier for Mauer but if he continues to hit like that he'll end up the greatest C of all-time.

 

[GreatLakesMike]

As a Reds fan....

Morgan was not that good. Seriously. I could have hit 25 home runs in that lineup. Look at his career stats away from the Reds and you will see that Morgan benefitted from being in a lineup with Rose, Bench, Perez, Foster, Geronimo, etc.

Also, Concepcion covered half the 2nd base side for Morgan, so it's not like Joe had to strain himself playing defense.

 

[Spartans Rule]

Biggest advantages for Bench over Mauer are the early start to his MLB career (had 2 MVPs by age 24), the workload as Eephus mentioned, and defense. Mauer's excellent behind the plate, throwing out 38% of runners stealing, but Bench nailed 43% and that number is weighed down by his later years. He had 12 straight years of over 40% and after awhile teams just stopped trying.

Mauer's charting a pretty good course though.

 

[Eephus]

As a Reds fan....Morgan was not that good. Seriously. I could have hit 25 home runs in that lineup. Look at his career stats away from the Reds and you will see that Morgan benefitted from being in a lineup with Rose, Bench, Perez, Foster, Geronimo, etc. Also, Concepcion covered half the 2nd base side for Morgan, so it's not like Joe had to strain himself playing defense.

I don't even know where to start with this one

 

[Spartans Rule]

As a Reds fan....Morgan was not that good. Seriously. I could have hit 25 home runs in that lineup. Look at his career stats away from the Reds and you will see that Morgan benefitted from being in a lineup with Rose, Bench, Perez, Foster, Geronimo, etc. Also, Concepcion covered half the 2nd base side for Morgan, so it's not like Joe had to strain himself playing defense.

How does playing in a great lineup help a guy walk 110+ times six straight seasons and lead the league in OBP four times? Opposing teams were so afraid of Rose, Bench, Perez, Foster and Geronimo that they... kept walking Joe Morgan? That doesn't make sense.

 

[Bogart]

As a Reds fan....Morgan was not that good. Seriously. I could have hit 25 home runs in that lineup. Look at his career stats away from the Reds and you will see that Morgan benefitted from being in a lineup with Rose, Bench, Perez, Foster, Geronimo, etc. Also, Concepcion covered half the 2nd base side for Morgan, so it's not like Joe had to strain himself playing defense.

I don't even know where to start with this one

Spartans did a pretty good job getting started for you.

 

[Bogart]

Pete Rose is nothing more than a product of white-boy hustle and playing for a million years.

Being the all-time leader in hits, and second in doubles really mean little when you have almost 2000 more PAs than anyone else in baseball. Tris Speaker has 46 more doubles than Rose with 3873 less PAs.

 

[Koya]

Pete Rose is nothing more than a product of white-boy hustle and playing for a million years.

Being the all-time leader in hits, and second in doubles really mean little when you have almost 2000 more PAs than anyone else in baseball. Tris Speaker has 46 more doubles than Rose with 3873 less PAs.

Pete Rose - good ballplayer with some very good years. Great teammate in that he hustled and gave it all. Bad teammate/manager in that he hustled aka bet on games and as a manager, even at the expense of his team's overall success.Joe Morgan - Possibly the best ever at his position. Lots of good years, a few very good years, a few stupid good years. At a scarcity position through it all.

Tough call here.

 

[Eephus]

Pete Rose is nothing more than a product of white-boy hustle and playing for a million years.

Being the all-time leader in hits, and second in doubles really mean little when you have almost 2000 more PAs than anyone else in baseball. Tris Speaker has 46 more doubles than Rose with 3873 less PAs.

Rose was an excellent player for a long time, then an OK player for a while, then a bad player chasing a record, then a terrible manager and finally an embarrassment. Unfortunately, a lot of people remember his end more than his peak.

 

[Chairshot]

As a Reds fan....Morgan was not that good. Seriously. I could have hit 25 home runs in that lineup. Look at his career stats away from the Reds and you will see that Morgan benefitted from being in a lineup with Rose, Bench, Perez, Foster, Geronimo, etc. Also, Concepcion covered half the 2nd base side for Morgan, so it's not like Joe had to strain himself playing defense.

Wow.

 

[oso diablo]

Joe Morgan - Possibly the best ever at his position. Lots of good years, a few very good years, a few stupid good years. At a scarcity position through it all.

i know you were making a different point with this post, but one could almost write the exact same description for Bench. And Bench played ALL of his years for the Reds. He gets my vote as the greatest Red of all-time.

 

[Eephus]

140 years of Cincinnati baseball and there's only one Hall of Fame pitcher to talk about. And Eppa Rixey is one of worst selections even by VC standards. Rixey was a good (115 ERA+) pitcher for a very long time but was never anywhere near the best of his era. He also spent a third of his career in Philadelphia.

After Rixey, there's a bunch of guys from the 1800s, Bucky Walters, Dolph Luque and guys like Maloney, Gary Nolan and Gullett who started off strong but got hurt. Maybe Joe Nuxhall will get voted in as an announcer.

Of the original sixteen teams, only the Pirates have as poor an all-time pitching staff to choose from.

 

[Koya]

Joe Morgan - Possibly the best ever at his position. Lots of good years, a few very good years, a few stupid good years. At a scarcity position through it all.

i know you were making a different point with this post, but one could almost write the exact same description for Bench. And Bench played ALL of his years for the Reds. He gets my vote as the greatest Red of all-time.

Bench would get my vote as well. I was merely discussing Morgan vs. Rose.

 

[Chairshot]

Joe Morgan - Possibly the best ever at his position. Lots of good years, a few very good years, a few stupid good years. At a scarcity position through it all.

i know you were making a different point with this post, but one could almost write the exact same description for Bench. And Bench played ALL of his years for the Reds. He gets my vote as the greatest Red of all-time.

You can definitely make a ton of reasonable arguments for Bench.The one difference that I make between Bench and Morgan is that you can make a pretty solid argument that Yogi Berra was just as good as Bench. And you could probably make solid arguments that Pudge Rodriguez and Joe Mauer will be just as good or better by the time it's all said and done. That's taking nothing away from Bench. He was awesome.With Morgan, though, he is far and away the best second baseman of all time. There is no one really even close to him. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that Morgan was one of the best 10 or 15 post-war players, period, at any position. That, to me, would be the difference.Either way, both are HOF players and a true credit to their organizations.

 

[Koya]

With Morgan, though, he is far and away the best second baseman of all time. There is no one really even close to him.

Ok, whoa there.Hornsby historically is better than Morgan. As was Nap Lajoie. In the discussion are Eddie Collins and Gehringer and Robinson (talking baseball here, but also considering he came into the league quite late).

 

[Chairshot]

With Morgan, though, he is far and away the best second baseman of all time. There is no one really even close to him.

Ok, whoa there.Hornsby historically is better than Morgan. As was Nap Lajoie. In the discussion are Eddie Collins and Gehringer and Robinson (talking baseball here, but also considering he came into the league quite late).

You are right, of course.I don't know why I wrote that sentence that way. I've qualified it as "post-war" players pretty much every where else, but didn't say it that way in the sentence you quoted. It's really hard to compare pre-war to post-war players, in my opinion. The game was much different.With Jackie Robinson, it's really hard to tell quite how good he was, since we only got the back end of his career. For what it's worth, he and Morgan have the exact same career OPS+ of 132. In my estimation, I think it's probable that Robinson was as good a hitter as Morgan, though Morgan was a much more prolific base-stealer. It's possible he was as good as Morgan as a defender. Overall, having never actually seen Robinson play, I can only go by his numbers. And, unfortunately, his numbers are very incomplete.Anyway, my point was to compare Morgan to post-war players. And I definitely believe that he was the best post-war 2B of all time.

 

[oso diablo]

It's really hard to compare pre-war to post-war players, in my opinion. The game was much different.

it's not that hard. and i'm not clear why WW2 would be a logical dividing line, even if it were hard.

 

[shuke]

As a Reds fan....Morgan was not that good. Seriously. I could have hit 25 home runs in that lineup. Look at his career stats away from the Reds and you will see that Morgan benefitted from being in a lineup with Rose, Bench, Perez, Foster, Geronimo, etc. Also, Concepcion covered half the 2nd base side for Morgan, so it's not like Joe had to strain himself playing defense.

 

[shuke]

Pete Rose is nothing more than a product of white-boy hustle and playing for a million years.

Being the all-time leader in hits, and second in doubles really mean little when you have almost 2000 more PAs than anyone else in baseball. Tris Speaker has 46 more doubles than Rose with 3873 less PAs.

If it's so easy why doesn't everybody do it?

 

[Chairshot]

It's really hard to compare pre-war to post-war players, in my opinion. The game was much different.

it's not that hard. and i'm not clear why WW2 would be a logical dividing line, even if it were hard.

I'd disagree. Baseball has a number of generally accepted "eras". The period after WWII is generally considered "modern" baseball. Players returned from war, integration started, night games started to be played, teams moved to the west coast, etc.Prior to the war, there were changes to the ball, spit balls/doctoring of the ball were allowed, ball park dimensions were all over the place, etc. It was definitely a different game. It's accepted by many that the game was different, because of a number of factors, prior to WWII then it was after.There have definitely been changes to the game since WWII, but probably nothing as drastic as the stuff that was allowed in the years before the war. It's not a 100%, "baseball changed at this very moment" type of thing, but it's clear that it was a different game. The years after all the players came back from the war and the number of black and latino players started to grow is a basic, general cutting off point, though there certainly have been other eras since then.We can compare players to others in their era, but it becomes much harder to compare players across eras. Babe Ruth was hitting 60 HR when no one else was hitting 25. How would he have done if he was playing today? What would have Pedro been able to do if he was allowed to throw a spit ball or if the mound was still raised? We can look at the numbers they put up, but it's hard to answer those types of questions.

 

[Eephus]

It's really hard to compare pre-war to post-war players, in my opinion. The game was much different.

it's not that hard. and i'm not clear why WW2 would be a logical dividing line, even if it were hard.

I'd disagree. Baseball has a number of generally accepted "eras". The period after WWII is generally considered "modern" baseball. Players returned from war, integration started, night games started to be played, teams moved to the west coast, etc.Prior to the war, there were changes to the ball, spit balls/doctoring of the ball were allowed, ball park dimensions were all over the place, etc. It was definitely a different game. It's accepted by many that the game was different, because of a number of factors, prior to WWII then it was after.There have definitely been changes to the game since WWII, but probably nothing as drastic as the stuff that was allowed in the years before the war. It's not a 100%, "baseball changed at this very moment" type of thing, but it's clear that it was a different game. The years after all the players came back from the war and the number of black and latino players started to grow is a basic, general cutting off point, though there certainly have been other eras since then.We can compare players to others in their era, but it becomes much harder to compare players across eras. Babe Ruth was hitting 60 HR when no one else was hitting 25. How would he have done if he was playing today? What would have Pedro been able to do if he was allowed to throw a spit ball or if the mound was still raised? We can look at the numbers they put up, but it's hard to answer those types of questions.

Son, you sound like a potential WIS owner

 

[Bogart]

Pete Rose is nothing more than a product of white-boy hustle and playing for a million years.

Being the all-time leader in hits, and second in doubles really mean little when you have almost 2000 more PAs than anyone else in baseball. Tris Speaker has 46 more doubles than Rose with 3873 less PAs.

If it's so easy why doesn't everybody do it?

I'm not saying it's easy. I just don't think he is as good as the number one Red. Should be in the HOF, but I would put Morgan, Bench, hell maybe even Larkin ahead of him.

 

[Eephus]

Pete Rose is nothing more than a product of white-boy hustle and playing for a million years.

Being the all-time leader in hits, and second in doubles really mean little when you have almost 2000 more PAs than anyone else in baseball. Tris Speaker has 46 more doubles than Rose with 3873 less PAs.

If it's so easy why doesn't everybody do it?

I'm not saying it's easy. I just don't think he is as good as the number one Red. Should be in the HOF, but I would put Morgan, Bench, hell maybe even Larkin ahead of him.

Larkin>Rose is just silly. Consistency and the ability to stay in the lineup are skills that can help a team as much as any stat line category.