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Top 100 Cincinnati Reds of All-Time (1 Viewer)

Pete Rose is nothing more than a product of white-boy hustle and playing for a million years.

Being the all-time leader in hits, and second in doubles really mean little when you have almost 2000 more PAs than anyone else in baseball. Tris Speaker has 46 more doubles than Rose with 3873 less PAs.
If it's so easy why doesn't everybody do it?
I'm not saying it's easy. I just don't think he is as good as the number one Red. Should be in the HOF, but I would put Morgan, Bench, hell maybe even Larkin ahead of him.
Larkin>Rose is just silly. Consistency and the ability to stay in the lineup are skills that can help a team as much as any stat line category.
Whatever Grandpa.I will admit, I just never liked Rose has a player. Even worse when he was a manager. Full disclosure, I was an infant during the Machine days, maybe I would have more respect for him if I was older. I can only look at stats now and highlights of that bad haircut flopping up as he plops into second. I hate the fact that he played forever just to get a hit record that now will probably never be broken, and is now just a joke of a man living his life as a one trick punchline.

 
It's really hard to compare pre-war to post-war players, in my opinion. The game was much different.
it's not that hard. and i'm not clear why WW2 would be a logical dividing line, even if it were hard.
I'd disagree. Baseball has a number of generally accepted "eras". The period after WWII is generally considered "modern" baseball. Players returned from war, integration started, night games started to be played, teams moved to the west coast, etc.Prior to the war, there were changes to the ball, spit balls/doctoring of the ball were allowed, ball park dimensions were all over the place, etc. It was definitely a different game. It's accepted by many that the game was different, because of a number of factors, prior to WWII then it was after.There have definitely been changes to the game since WWII, but probably nothing as drastic as the stuff that was allowed in the years before the war. It's not a 100%, "baseball changed at this very moment" type of thing, but it's clear that it was a different game. The years after all the players came back from the war and the number of black and latino players started to grow is a basic, general cutting off point, though there certainly have been other eras since then.We can compare players to others in their era, but it becomes much harder to compare players across eras. Babe Ruth was hitting 60 HR when no one else was hitting 25. How would he have done if he was playing today? What would have Pedro been able to do if he was allowed to throw a spit ball or if the mound was still raised? We can look at the numbers they put up, but it's hard to answer those types of questions.
Son, you sound like a potential WIS owner
:thumbdown:
 
From the guy that made the list: Pete Rose #1

Peter Edward Rose, perhaps more than any man in the history of the world, was built to hit .300. One suspects that it was not only important to him (you just *know* he kept track of his stats), but that there was some sort of innate necessity—like an internal magnet that drew him towards a .300 batting average. I say this for a variety of reasons: one, Rose played for a really, really long time, came up to bat more than anyone ever, and hit .303 for that career. But at the end of his career, he had—as player/manager—the ability to write himself in or out of the lineup. As his skills dimmed (he hit just .219 in his final season), he had the power to ensure that his lifetime mark stayed above that magic line. More interesting, however, is just how balanced it all was after 14,000 at-bats. Rose hit .302 in day games, .303 at night. He hit .303 on grass, and the same on turf. Domed stadiums presented no trouble (.301). He wasn’t a total robot—for example he was a better left-handed hitter than right—but it must have seemed that way to opponents, at times. From 1965 through 1980, Rose managed at least 175 hits in each season—and often times posted many more than that. Too much has been written about Rose, much of it either overly positive or overly negative. Here, then, are five observations about Rose, rooted primarily in fact and data:

1) Rose was at least a little bit lucky that Tommy Helms wasn’t either a bit older or a bit better. Rose won Rookie of the Year in 1963, due in part to the fact that there weren’t many good candidates that year (he had just a 101 OPS+, and was caught stealing more times than he was successful). The following season, Rose was pretty bad—80 OPS+, didn’t field particularly well, etc. The Reds had Helms, another 2nd baseman, in AAA that year, and he was just not quite ready for prime time. Actually, as his career unveiled, it turned out he wasn’t quite good enough to be foundational to a winning team. Rose bounced back in ’65 (led the league in hits, finished 6th in MVP voting), but an impatient team or a better alternative at 2nd base might have changed his situation considerably.

2) Rose bounced from position to position, generally at four-year intervals, and didn’t play any of them particularly well. Honestly, one of the great surprises in this entire project was that Rose won two Gold Glove awards, while playing right field, but I would guess that a retrospective, fielding data-based examination of the results wouldn’t approve. Actually, he was probably a decent enough left fielder in the early 70’s, especially playing alongside Tolan or Geronimo. He didn’t make many errors, and was almost certainly pretty intelligent about throws, or running down flies, etc.

3) One of my favorite unknowable questions in baseball history is this: how many home runs could Pete Rose have hit had he employed a different style of hitting? He certainly didn’t hit very many as it was: just 160 of his 4256 hits went over the fence, and he peaked at 16, twice. From 1972 on, he reached double digit dingers just once. Still, he regularly led the league in doubles (five separate times during his 30’s), and he appeared to be muscular enough to turn some of those doubles into home runs. One imagines that his mental calculus determined that trying for home runs decrease the batting average, and that might mean he drop below .300…

4) Rose played until he was 45 years old. He clearly and transparently played long enough to eclipse Ty Cobb’s hits record. Still, he was good enough in 1985, at age 44, to post a .395 on-base percentage.

5) Throughout his career and its aftermath, Rose was probably a bit overrated. He was flashy, a great quote, a statistical freak given his longevity, and he had an elevated profile in part due to the greatness of his teammates. His peak was very good, but wasn’t other-worldly (he had only two seasons with OPS+ marks above 150, although he was generally on-base heavy). Still, it’s possible that his ridiculous career marks are understated. The indescribably good Baseball-reference.com takes efforts to translate each player’s season to a "neutral" offensive era, whereby teams average just over 4.4 runs per game. Since Rose’s peak took place in the pitcher-friendly 1960’s, he emerges favorably from this exercise, which imagines 4,604 career hits, 800 doubles, and an OPS of 815 instead of his actual 784.

Rose spent 19 seasons with the Reds, came to bat over 12,000 times, scored over 1700 runs, maintained a 124 OPS+, and reached base safely over 4,500 times
 
That's a pretty good balanced writeup on Rose. To say he's always been a controversial figure would be a huge understatement. It's really a shame that the betting stuff overshadows his accomplishments as a player, because there's plenty to debate around just his on field record.

 
Pete Rose is nothing more than a product of white-boy hustle and playing for a million years.

Being the all-time leader in hits, and second in doubles really mean little when you have almost 2000 more PAs than anyone else in baseball. Tris Speaker has 46 more doubles than Rose with 3873 less PAs.
If it's so easy why doesn't everybody do it?
I'm not saying it's easy. I just don't think he is as good as the number one Red. Should be in the HOF, but I would put Morgan, Bench, hell maybe even Larkin ahead of him.
Pete Rose is the Cincinnati Reds.
 
I will admit, I just never liked Rose has a player. Even worse when he was a manager. Full disclosure, I was an infant during the Machine days, maybe I would have more respect for him if I was older. I can only look at stats now and highlights of that bad haircut flopping up as he plops into second. I hate the fact that he played forever just to get a hit record that now will probably never be broken, and is now just a joke of a man living his life as a one trick punchline.
He won a WS with the Phillies in '80 and then was an all-star, top 10 in mvp voting, and led the league in hits in the strike-shortened 1981 season. He was already 4th on the all-time hit list and had Cobb in his sights. You really would expect someone to start thinking about packing it in coming off a year like that?Dude had a .395 OBP in 500 plate appearances in 1985, 22 years after he won rookie of the year. Why should he have quit playing?
 
I will admit, I just never liked Rose has a player. Even worse when he was a manager. Full disclosure, I was an infant during the Machine days, maybe I would have more respect for him if I was older. I can only look at stats now and highlights of that bad haircut flopping up as he plops into second. I hate the fact that he played forever just to get a hit record that now will probably never be broken, and is now just a joke of a man living his life as a one trick punchline.
He won a WS with the Phillies in '80 and then was an all-star, top 10 in mvp voting, and led the league in hits in the strike-shortened 1981 season. He was already 4th on the all-time hit list and had Cobb in his sights. You really would expect someone to start thinking about packing it in coming off a year like that?Dude had a .395 OBP in 500 plate appearances in 1985, 22 years after he won rookie of the year. Why should he have quit playing?
On the other hand, there's his .245/.316/.286 line in over 550 PAs during his last season in Philadelphia. I can't criticize the man for continuing his chase for record but it's hard to deny that's exactly what he was doing.The 1985 team he managed (and bet on) was actually pretty good. They won 89 games. Rose broke Cobb's record and had a fine .395 OBP, although he slugged only .319. Rose performed well enough to keep writing his own name on the lineup card. You could make the case that the Reds would have been better off with Nick Esasky or Gary Redus at 1B, although Rose probably would have played his old friend Tony Perez there if he couldn't play himself.
 
I will admit, I just never liked Rose has a player. Even worse when he was a manager. Full disclosure, I was an infant during the Machine days, maybe I would have more respect for him if I was older. I can only look at stats now and highlights of that bad haircut flopping up as he plops into second. I hate the fact that he played forever just to get a hit record that now will probably never be broken, and is now just a joke of a man living his life as a one trick punchline.
He won a WS with the Phillies in '80 and then was an all-star, top 10 in mvp voting, and led the league in hits in the strike-shortened 1981 season. He was already 4th on the all-time hit list and had Cobb in his sights. You really would expect someone to start thinking about packing it in coming off a year like that?Dude had a .395 OBP in 500 plate appearances in 1985, 22 years after he won rookie of the year. Why should he have quit playing?
On the other hand, there's his .245/.316/.286 line in over 550 PAs during his last season in Philadelphia. I can't criticize the man for continuing his chase for record but it's hard to deny that's exactly what he was doing.
Who's denying it? He was still capable of hitting the ball and the record was within reach.
 
I will admit, I just never liked Rose has a player. Even worse when he was a manager. Full disclosure, I was an infant during the Machine days, maybe I would have more respect for him if I was older. I can only look at stats now and highlights of that bad haircut flopping up as he plops into second. I hate the fact that he played forever just to get a hit record that now will probably never be broken, and is now just a joke of a man living his life as a one trick punchline.
He won a WS with the Phillies in '80 and then was an all-star, top 10 in mvp voting, and led the league in hits in the strike-shortened 1981 season. He was already 4th on the all-time hit list and had Cobb in his sights. You really would expect someone to start thinking about packing it in coming off a year like that?Dude had a .395 OBP in 500 plate appearances in 1985, 22 years after he won rookie of the year. Why should he have quit playing?
On the other hand, there's his .245/.316/.286 line in over 550 PAs during his last season in Philadelphia. I can't criticize the man for continuing his chase for record but it's hard to deny that's exactly what he was doing.The 1985 team he managed (and bet on) was actually pretty good. They won 89 games. Rose broke Cobb's record and had a fine .395 OBP, although he slugged only .319. Rose performed well enough to keep writing his own name on the lineup card. You could make the case that the Reds would have been better off with Nick Esasky or Gary Redus at 1B, although Rose probably would have played his old friend Tony Perez there if he couldn't play himself.
Everyone has down years. Who is to say he didn't have a nagging injury or the like that season?
 
I will admit, I just never liked Rose has a player. Even worse when he was a manager. Full disclosure, I was an infant during the Machine days, maybe I would have more respect for him if I was older. I can only look at stats now and highlights of that bad haircut flopping up as he plops into second. I hate the fact that he played forever just to get a hit record that now will probably never be broken, and is now just a joke of a man living his life as a one trick punchline.
He won a WS with the Phillies in '80 and then was an all-star, top 10 in mvp voting, and led the league in hits in the strike-shortened 1981 season. He was already 4th on the all-time hit list and had Cobb in his sights. You really would expect someone to start thinking about packing it in coming off a year like that?Dude had a .395 OBP in 500 plate appearances in 1985, 22 years after he won rookie of the year. Why should he have quit playing?
On the other hand, there's his .245/.316/.286 line in over 550 PAs during his last season in Philadelphia. I can't criticize the man for continuing his chase for record but it's hard to deny that's exactly what he was doing.The 1985 team he managed (and bet on) was actually pretty good. They won 89 games. Rose broke Cobb's record and had a fine .395 OBP, although he slugged only .319. Rose performed well enough to keep writing his own name on the lineup card. You could make the case that the Reds would have been better off with Nick Esasky or Gary Redus at 1B, although Rose probably would have played his old friend Tony Perez there if he couldn't play himself.
Everyone has down years. Who is to say he didn't have a nagging injury or the like that season?
He followed up his .245/.316/.286 season with a .259/.334/.295 line through Aug 15th of the next year. The only nagging injury that could have lasted 1.75 seasons was Rose's haircut.
 
Pete Rose is nothing more than a product of white-boy hustle and playing for a million years.

Being the all-time leader in hits, and second in doubles really mean little when you have almost 2000 more PAs than anyone else in baseball. Tris Speaker has 46 more doubles than Rose with 3873 less PAs.
If it's so easy why doesn't everybody do it?
I'm not saying it's easy. I just don't think he is as good as the number one Red. Should be in the HOF, but I would put Morgan, Bench, hell maybe even Larkin ahead of him.
Pete Rose is the Cincinnati Reds.
:goodposting: No reason to overthink this one. This is the reason.

 

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