Torry Holt vs. Champ Bailey (1 Viewer)

[ffldrew]

Looking at the matchup here, and as a Bronco fan, locally Champ gets lots of kudos as being a "shutdown" cornerback. But as a Bronco fan I've seen him get torched by TO, Chad Johnson Jerry Porter - mainly the big physical receivers in the league are the ones he's struggled against. Is Torry Holt that kind of receiver? He's only at 6'1" - not the 6'4" types that have hurt Champ. Also is Bulger the type of QB that can still get it to Holt even if Champ is on him - or is this a week that Bruce or Curtis get more looks as the Rams stay away from Champs side of the field?

 

[SSOG]

Looking at the matchup here, and as a Bronco fan, locally Champ gets lots of kudos as being a "shutdown" cornerback. But as a Bronco fan I've seen him get torched by TO, Chad Johnson Jerry Porter - mainly the big physical receivers in the league are the ones he's struggled against. Is Torry Holt that kind of receiver? He's only at 6'1" - not the 6'4" types that have hurt Champ. Also is Bulger the type of QB that can still get it to Holt even if Champ is on him - or is this a week that Bruce or Curtis get more looks as the Rams stay away from Champs side of the field?

Bailey was gimpy in the extreme against Terrell Owens. Bailey gave as good as he got against Chad Johnson (got burned once for a TD, burned Chad once for a big INT in the end zone, and then Chad got another long reception against Bailey after a flagrant and uncalled offensive pass interference where he actually put both hands on Bailey's shoulders and leveraged himself up over top of Bailey to go get the ball while holding Bailey on the ground). Jerry Porter was really the only one of the three to just beat Bailey around.According to Football Outsiders, Denver ranked #11 in the entire NFL against #1 WRs last year- although you have to remember that Bailey was really gimped up. Still, while Torry Holt is facing one of the best cover corners in the entire NFL, you have to ask yourself... how often does Torry Holt see 1-on-1 coverage?I dunno, I view the game as a harder than average matchup for Holt, but not incredibly tough, since again, how often is he ever single-covered?

 

[DOVCommish]

Bailey can shut down lesser WRs, but Holt is an elite guy. He can make living on slants and some underneath stuff so I wouldn't count him out because he may not go 20 yards a catch. I'm not looking for a 140-yard day or anything but 7-80 vs. Bailey would be a reasonable expectation. Maybe more if Denver blows them out (garbage time rules!)

 

[msommer]

Under the previous regime it seemed like both Holt and Bruce dropped like a stone or ran ob practically as soon as the ball was secured in their hands, most times it was placed exactly where only they could get it, often they were turning back to get it. Not sure if Linehan subscribes to that as well or if it is a Martz technique. Hard to defend against I'd say, even for Champ Bailey.

 

[mojorizin]

Under the previous regime it seemed like both Holt and Bruce dropped like a stone or ran ob practically as soon as the ball was secured in their hands, most times it was placed exactly where only they could get it, often they were turning back to get it. Not sure if Linehan subscribes to that as well or if it is a Martz technique. Hard to defend against I'd say, even for Champ Bailey.

Holt is the master at running the out and post corner which doesnt play into a CBs hands. Guy makes every route look the same. Has Champ shut anyone down since Tony Gonzalez?

 

[jurb26]

There is no such thing as a shut down CB any more... NFL rules wont allow it.

 

[SSOG]

Under the previous regime it seemed like both Holt and Bruce dropped like a stone or ran ob practically as soon as the ball was secured in their hands, most times it was placed exactly where only they could get it, often they were turning back to get it. Not sure if Linehan subscribes to that as well or if it is a Martz technique. Hard to defend against I'd say, even for Champ Bailey.

Holt is the master at running the out and post corner which doesnt play into a CBs hands. Guy makes every route look the same. Has Champ shut anyone down since Tony Gonzalez?

Check the game logs of Antonio's 4 games against Bailey.Also, like I said, it's hard for Bailey to "shut down" the marquee WRs. These guys are used to routinely beating double-teams. Even if Bailey is as good in coverage as an average CB *WITH SAFETY HELP*, he's still going to give up a lot of big games to the best WRs who are used to routinely beating average CBs with safety help. Like I said, the big advantage Bailey provides isn't taking the opposing WR out of the game, like people say... it's freeing up the rest of the secondary to not even worry about the rest of the field. Marquee WRs generally turn football into a game of 9 on 9 (since 2 defenders will cover that 1 WR, and the QB doesn't really count here), but Bailey gives the defense an extra man (since the safety doesn't help him), essentially making it a game of 9 on 10.Bailey's also phenominal in run support and is a big-play machine. He's definitely earned his "best CB in the NFL" acclaim... but he's not a shut-down guy most of the time. Holding the opposing WR to 80 yards is still a phenominal day for Bailey, considering all else he provides the defense with.

 

[Skinsfansince72]

There is no such thing as a shut down CB any more... NFL rules wont allow it.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

There is no such thing as a shut down CB any more... NFL rules wont allow it.

not only that Champ is a high risk type guy. gets burned, makes a good play.If holts numbers are subpar this week it wont be due to champ shutting him down. it will be more due to STL's Oline play and Bulger getting put on his back.

 

[ffldrew]

Under the previous regime it seemed like both Holt and Bruce dropped like a stone or ran ob practically as soon as the ball was secured in their hands, most times it was placed exactly where only they could get it, often they were turning back to get it. Not sure if Linehan subscribes to that as well or if it is a Martz technique. Hard to defend against I'd say, even for Champ Bailey.

Holt is the master at running the out and post corner which doesnt play into a CBs hands. Guy makes every route look the same. Has Champ shut anyone down since Tony Gonzalez?

Mojo - since you are in St. Louis - is Bulger good enough to test Bailey or is he the type of QB that shies away from the tougher matchup and starts to focus on Bruce and Curtis more. Do the the target numbers change for Holt because Bailey is covering him?

 

[pinda]

Looking at the matchup here, and as a Bronco fan, locally Champ gets lots of kudos as being a "shutdown" cornerback. But as a Bronco fan I've seen him get torched by TO, Chad Johnson Jerry Porter - mainly the big physical receivers in the league are the ones he's struggled against. Is Torry Holt that kind of receiver? He's only at 6'1" - not the 6'4" types that have hurt Champ. Also is Bulger the type of QB that can still get it to Holt even if Champ is on him - or is this a week that Bruce or Curtis get more looks as the Rams stay away from Champs side of the field?

i won't even answer the TO and CJ ones cause they were covered pretty good.But Jerry Porter??? There was like a foot of snow on the ground, how can somebody even make an assessment on Champ or Porter in that type of weather.

 

[intrinsic]

i scanned the Rams stats for the last 3 seasons and was surprised to see they hadnt played the Broncos in a few years. I was hoping to find atleast 1 match up betwen Bailet and Holt. Anyone know the stats, if they have even played against each other previously?

 

[massraider]

I suppose the individual matchup is tougher, if Bailey matches up man to man on Holt all game. Is that the Broncos' tendency? I don't know.

Also, the phrase 'shutdown corner' shoulda retired when Deion Sanders did.

 

[Archie Bunker]

i scanned the Rams stats for the last 3 seasons and was surprised to see they hadnt played the Broncos in a few years. I was hoping to find atleast 1 match up betwen Bailet and Holt. Anyone know the stats, if they have even played against each other previously?

2000 and 2002 when Bailey was a Redskin. Holt had 5/75/0 and 4/125/0 inthose games, respectively.http://www.pro-football-reference.com/game...ltTo00.htm#2002

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/game...ltTo00.htm#2000

www.pro-football-reference.com is a great tool for getting this type of data. Thanks Doug.

 

[SSOG]

There is no such thing as a shut down CB any more... NFL rules wont allow it.

not only that Champ is a high risk type guy. gets burned, makes a good play.If holts numbers are subpar this week it wont be due to champ shutting him down. it will be more due to STL's Oline play and Bulger getting put on his back.

I disagree with the high risk. The coverage schemes tend to be high risk schemes (man-to-man against quality receivers always is), but Champ Bailey gets burned far less than almost any other CB in the NFL would in man coverage with no help against stud WRs.If Holt's numbers are subpar this week, it'll almost certainly be due to Champ. Denver's passrush is, at this point, pretty mediocre (or worse) and a big reason why Champ "gets burned" a lot of the time. Not even Deion could cover anyone for 5 seconds without slipping up at some point.

I suppose the individual matchup is tougher, if Bailey matches up man to man on Holt all game. Is that the Broncos' tendency? I don't know. Also, the phrase 'shutdown corner' shoulda retired when Deion Sanders did.

Champ Bailey plays man-to-man more than any other CB in the league over the last 2 years, iirc, so yes, he is getting matched up 1-on-1. He doesn't always go 1-on-1 with the best WR, though. He usually defends one side of the field (the defense's left side), which is traditionally where the opposition's best WR lines up (because right-handed QBs are better at throwing to their right). Sometimes, if the other team is ignoring him a lot, Denver moves him around and disguises his coverages to try to get him a chance to make a play on the ball.

 

[KnowledgeReignsSupreme]

Amani Toomer routinely had very good games against the Skins in his prime.

 

[Billy1x]

There is no such thing as a shut down corner anymore.

The new rules do not allow it. If a corner is left alone 100% of the game he will be burned but the better ones might survuve if they are only left on an island occasionally.

The definition of a #1 WR is one that can get open against double coverage. Holt IS a #1 receiver.

 

[thecardiackid]

Under the previous regime it seemed like both Holt and Bruce dropped like a stone or ran ob practically as soon as the ball was secured in their hands, most times it was placed exactly where only they could get it, often they were turning back to get it. Not sure if Linehan subscribes to that as well or if it is a Martz technique. Hard to defend against I'd say, even for Champ Bailey.

Holt is the master at running the out and post corner which doesnt play into a CBs hands. Guy makes every route look the same. Has Champ shut anyone down since Tony Gonzalez?

Mojo - since you are in St. Louis - is Bulger good enough to test Bailey or is he the type of QB that shies away from the tougher matchup and starts to focus on Bruce and Curtis more. Do the the target numbers change for Holt because Bailey is covering him?

Not mojo here, but IMO Bulger is going to HAVE to test Bailey after the Rams get down a couple scores. And most QBs (except Delhomme maybe) will get the ball to whoever is open. I think most would agree that Holt is better than most at precise routes and getting open. Targets may be off a little, but Holt will get his. I'd be more concerned about the STL O line giving Bulger the time to actually find Holt & get him the ball effectively.

 

[fsufan]

there has not been a shutdown CB in the NFL since Primetime

 

[Hammatime]

I suppose the individual matchup is tougher, if Bailey matches up man to man on Holt all game. Is that the Broncos' tendency? I don't know. Also, the phrase 'shutdown corner' shoulda retired when Deion Sanders did.

Amen brother. Maybe the most over-used phrase in football. Seriously, Champ Bailey a shutdown corner? Start Holt, you won't regret it

 

[tombonneau]

Not to just regurgitate what has been said, but yeah, I think people forget how Deion literally was the progenitor of the term "shutdown corner."

If you recall Deion in his prime, he LITERALLY shut down an entire half of the field. QBs didn't even *think* to throw over there.

There has been no corner since--nor do I think there will be in the future--who commands that sort of respect, dominating an entire 25 yards of field.

Bailey is good, but not good enough to not start the likes of Holt.

 

[DOVCommish]

Bailey can shut down lesser WRs, but Holt is an elite guy. He can make living on slants and some underneath stuff so I wouldn't count him out because he may not go 20 yards a catch. I'm not looking for a 140-yard day or anything but 7-80 vs. Bailey would be a reasonable expectation. Maybe more if Denver blows them out (garbage time rules!)

I should have bought lottery tickets...

 

[FFLOA]

Champ and the Denver D had a good day - same can't be said about Holt or the Denver O