KCitons
Footballguy
Then you guys are right. This conversation has nothing to do with tariffs. It's cyclical.
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.
TRADE THREAD- President Trump signs Phase One of China agreement, China promises to double its purchases in 2020 (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter timschochet
- Start date
msommer
Footballguy
KCitons
Footballguy
It's partially due to cheap products and partially due to people wanting the newest thing. Regardless of condition of the old one.
As I posted in the car thread, we own one new car to use for vacations. (I contemplated renting a car, but decided the cost of a lease would be better) Remove the one new car and the others are 2007, 1999, 1997. All go from point A to point B just fine. My refrigerator doesn't have wifi. We bought it with the house 21 years ago. The iced dispenser no longer works, but it still keeps things cold. I refuse to replace it until it dies.
Things that I have bought in the last decade (washing machine, dryer, dishwasher) have all broke down shortly after the warranty ran out. Products these days are cheaply made with the purpose of making you buy another in a few years.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Not necesarily cyclical, we have avoided another Depression because we learned some lessons and made changes. Most of these were governmental regulations to prevent wild west banking, stock trading, etc. We created better price controls for essential things like crops. We put in safety nets, minimum wage,etc.There will always be ups and downs, but I don't think another Depression is guaranteed. Also nobody is saying tariffs caused the Great Depression. It had a net negative impact though. It was put in place with the claims it would save American jobs and it did not.
Mile High
Footballguy
Guess he is correct. No one needs a refrigerator with WIFI or with a TVI still haven't seen one of these WIFI refrigerators in person?
I just texted a GB who's building a $4+ million beach house in the Caribbean asking if his fridge had WIFI. He said, "No, what the ####?"
My search continues.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
I think your understanding of likfe in the 1920s is just flat out wrong. You act like it was pioneer days. The consumer culture of the 20s was massive and caused the economy to boom.
Look at private credit market debt to GDP. The levels we saw in the 20s weren't matched again untill the late 90s.
Look at private credit market debt to GDP. The levels we saw in the 20s weren't matched again untill the late 90s.
The Commish
Footballguy
On a side note I must be a freakin' washing machine/dryer savant. I have one of the first LG Tromm front loader combos ever made and they're still humming along. Had a couple valves go bad, but easy enough to replace. I've only bought new refrigerators when we got new houses. All we need is "no side by side" and ice/water. I laugh at the rest of that stuff, but I don't know anyone who's ever bought a fridge like that.
But let's make no mistake about it. The quality of the product is driven by what we demand. We don't know what we don't know and so IMO it circles back to education on the items we like to have that make our lives easier. I don't think the answer is going back to the "Little House on the Prairie" days where we didn't have "stuff". Though I do think there is something to your theory about parents providing things to their kids they didn't have. I'm not really sure what that's all about. My kid doesn't have all the gaming systems. He doesn't play all the sports etc etc.
The Commish
Footballguy
Go look at the Samsung models at HD if you really want to see oneI still haven't seen one of these WIFI refrigerators in person?
I just texted a GB who's building a $4+ million beach house in the Caribbean asking if his fridge had WIFI. He said, "No, what the ####?"
Sheriff Bart
Footballguy
I have 3 of these.I still haven't seen one of these WIFI refrigerators in person?
I just texted a GB who's building a $4+ million beach house in the Caribbean asking if his fridge had WIFI. He said, "No, what the ####?"
https://m.lowes.com/pd/LG-Signature-InstaView-30-8-cu-ft-4-Door-French-Door-Refrigerator-with-Ice-Maker-and-Door-within-Door-Textured-Steel-ENERGY-STAR/1000152079?cm_mmc=SCE_PLA_ONLY-_-Appliances-_-SosRefrigeration-_-1000152079:LG&CAWELAID=&kpid=1000152079&CAGPSPN=pla&k_clickID=3a323dbb-54f8-44c2-b866-dfb94e678902&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI3snXibSz3AIVUdbACh1dZwXXEAQYAiABEgLjO_D_BwE
KCitons
Footballguy
There are people still using flip phones. That doesn't mean the iPhone doesn't exist.I still haven't seen one of these WIFI refrigerators in person?
I just texted a GB who's building a $4+ million beach house in the Caribbean asking if his fridge had WIFI. He said, "No, what the ####?"
KCitons
Footballguy
Hate to break it to you, but the title of the thread is TRADE WAR- Trump to announce new restrictions against China.Quit jumping into the boat and stay on topic
Tim has changed it a few times, but trade war encompasses a lot of things. Not just tariffs.
KCitons
Footballguy
I did the same when the iPhone came out. Who needs all those features. My bag phone made calls just fine.
I'm not expecting to go back to Little House on the Prairie. I am saying that we can't expect to purchase foreign made products that are cheap and actually cost more over time due to replacement, while at the same time American workers are making less and less. It's a business model that slowly suffocates it's customer base.
msommer
Footballguy
You should start a consumer advocacy group, to buy
Enjoy your mission, report back soon now, you hear?
Last edited by a moderator:
KCitons
Footballguy
I really feel sorry for you. You add very little to the conversation and your snide comments borderline on bullying. Perhaps you should find something in your own life to add purpose. You might be a happier person for it.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
I agree with you. Where we disagree is how to combat the problem.I am not convinced causing products to become more expensive, reduce our exports is going cause our workers to make more money. It does run the risk of having the opposite impact: things cost more, company sales go down and people lose their jobs, bonuses aren't given, etc.
On a semi-related noted, the biggest issue with appliances needing repalcement is the digital BS put in things that don't need to be digital but that is another argument. Maybe that is a niche market that could develop: high quality American appliances without digital BS that breaks.
msommer
Footballguy
Do take up that consumer advocacy thing, it'll be good for you to do something. Any action is better than no action, right?
KCitons
Footballguy
This tells me how little you know about me. I spend 50-60 hours a week working to make things better for other people.
I'm also financially able to weather any storm that should come our way. I'm not worried about me, I'm trying to make things better for my kids. (isn't that what people were wanting in the gun thread?)
The Commish
Footballguy
This is true, but simply bringing those jobs back here doesn't accomplish squat in this regard. We can't expect to purchase domestically made products that are cheap and actually cost more over time due to replacement either. That's an issue of quality regardless of where it's made. It's why I research a product's durability and rarely do I consider where it's made. I don't care as long as it's durable.
I know I keep pounding that education drum, but I see a HUGE problem in our approach. We have plenty of jobs in this country. The problem seems to be, those in demand jobs don't have a sufficient base of people interested in doing them. In the IT industry we are constantly looking for people and oddly enough, they are hard to find. Quality ones are virtually impossible to find. We need to do a way better job of educating people of where the jobs are, how much they pay and how you get there. In general, people don't have a clue. They simply think "What do I want to do after high school? Hmmm....I'll go to college" with little consideration for WHAT they are going to study. There's a huge disconnect that oddly enough, I think guidance counselors in the high schools could easily bridge.
msommer
Footballguy
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Also if manufacturing jobs are coming back, won't the companies mostly loom to automation? Automation is more responsible for the lack of U.S. manufacturing jobs than anything else and it is only going to get worse. Their was just a recent report that expects another 30-70 million American jobs are going to be lost to automotion Robot purschaes by companies have been growing by like 30% a year.
KCitons
Footballguy
KCitons
Footballguy
The problem with this approach is that it forces people to get a college degree in order to work. That degree comes at too high of a cost to make sense or even possible for some people. Decades ago there were jobs that didn't require anything but a good work ethic. And they paid well enough for a person to live a happy and prosperous life. Some people don't want to, or can't get a college education. It becomes an elitist society.
The Commish
Footballguy
How do you figure? For me, and I mentioned this already in this thread, the solution is three pronged. College, trade classes (in all sorts of forms including community college as well as companies offering them to teach people for jobs they need specifically, and altering high school curriculum to allow early exposure to trades that are a dying breed.
I understand that decades ago all you needed was "want to". Like it or not, technology has made that less and less possible. Education is required. There's no getting around it. There are ways to solve the cost issue as well, but some are really hung up on extending public education beyond high school even though you're making a pretty good case for why their support would be helpful.
The Commish
Footballguy
Right....education is necessary in this day and age. We could probably curb some of this if we changed our primary and high school approaches, but altering them still won't get us completely there. "Want to" isn't enough anymore.
squistion
Footballguy
Mike Pence's hometown is taking a hit due to Trump's tariffs.
"I'm very worried," said Tom Linebarger, the head of Cummins, the biggest employer in Columbus, Indiana, who warns of job losses ahead because thousands of jobs in the area depend on trade.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/dependent-on-trade-mike-pences-hometown-takes-a-hit-due-to-trumps-tariffs/2018/07/21/25fd2bda-8c2e-11e8-8aea-86e88ae760d8_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.e5d7f4ab44ce
"I'm very worried," said Tom Linebarger, the head of Cummins, the biggest employer in Columbus, Indiana, who warns of job losses ahead because thousands of jobs in the area depend on trade.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/dependent-on-trade-mike-pences-hometown-takes-a-hit-due-to-trumps-tariffs/2018/07/21/25fd2bda-8c2e-11e8-8aea-86e88ae760d8_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.e5d7f4ab44ce
KCitons
Footballguy
I agree with some of this. But, why then, has CEO and upper class incomes increased at a higher rate? Companies are profitable, they just choose to increase the pay of the top 1%, while the average worker fights to make ends meet. Or they lose their job to outsourcing because the CEO wants a third house.
Bottom line, it's greed. Money is the root of all evil. As I see it, the tariffs may accelerate things, but the results are the same either way.
timschochet
Footballguy
It seems like there are 3 basic arguments made for tariffs:
1. You want to protect industries in your own country from competition that is cheaper because they use lower wages. So you’re putting a tax on consumers in order to dissuade them from purchasing the less expensive overseas product. This has been the traditional argument. The problem is that the government is creating an artificial higher price that is not reflective of actual value, and essentially the government is attempting to redistribute wealth. The other problem, of course, is that other nations whose products are targeted in this manner will retaliate by targeting our exports as well, which we are seeing happen.
2. The second argument is a variation of the first one but in a reverse way: the politician doesn’t propose new tarrifs but he rejects new free trade agreements because he is concerned about making things worse for workers. This would be closest to Bernie Sanders’ position. He is opposed to lowering existing trade barriers, but also opposed to new barriers being erected.
3. The third argument is that tarrifs are awful, but other nations are imposing them already. If we threaten to impose them ourselves we can therefore scare the other nations enough to lower theirs in order to stop us. Our real goal is to actually have freer trade than we have now.
This last appears to be Donald Trump’s approach, though he only hints at it- other members of his administration are more explicit. What’s interesting is that Wall Street is not only convinced that this is exactly what Trump is doing, they are also convinced he will succeed, and that’s the sole reason the stock market hasn’t tumbled off a cliff thus far. And the truth is that Trump might succeed, because there is not a single nation trading with us on this planet, including China, which is not more reliant on our trade than we are on theirs. We hold the upper hand. The problem is that when you’re dealing with the pride of other nations it’s a huge gamble. China and other nations may be willing to suffer much before they’ll give in to demands made at what they regard as the barrel of a gun. We’ll have to see.
1. You want to protect industries in your own country from competition that is cheaper because they use lower wages. So you’re putting a tax on consumers in order to dissuade them from purchasing the less expensive overseas product. This has been the traditional argument. The problem is that the government is creating an artificial higher price that is not reflective of actual value, and essentially the government is attempting to redistribute wealth. The other problem, of course, is that other nations whose products are targeted in this manner will retaliate by targeting our exports as well, which we are seeing happen.
2. The second argument is a variation of the first one but in a reverse way: the politician doesn’t propose new tarrifs but he rejects new free trade agreements because he is concerned about making things worse for workers. This would be closest to Bernie Sanders’ position. He is opposed to lowering existing trade barriers, but also opposed to new barriers being erected.
3. The third argument is that tarrifs are awful, but other nations are imposing them already. If we threaten to impose them ourselves we can therefore scare the other nations enough to lower theirs in order to stop us. Our real goal is to actually have freer trade than we have now.
This last appears to be Donald Trump’s approach, though he only hints at it- other members of his administration are more explicit. What’s interesting is that Wall Street is not only convinced that this is exactly what Trump is doing, they are also convinced he will succeed, and that’s the sole reason the stock market hasn’t tumbled off a cliff thus far. And the truth is that Trump might succeed, because there is not a single nation trading with us on this planet, including China, which is not more reliant on our trade than we are on theirs. We hold the upper hand. The problem is that when you’re dealing with the pride of other nations it’s a huge gamble. China and other nations may be willing to suffer much before they’ll give in to demands made at what they regard as the barrel of a gun. We’ll have to see.
The Z Machine
Footballguy
I work for a company that has an public policy of "make where you cell." I've yet to see that policy actually mean anything when it comes down to dollars and cents.
I do believe that the uncertainty of the tariffs will likely cause some more products to be made in the US than otherwise. However, they are also likely to cost more to the customer. Those products that are "made in the USA" have the vast majority of the parts and even large subassemblies come from overseas. Sure some parts are actually fabricated by suppliers in the US, but not most. Furthermore, the quality of components made overseas is often better than those made in the US. Assuming you have a competent quality department doing the audits and approvals.
I do believe that the uncertainty of the tariffs will likely cause some more products to be made in the US than otherwise. However, they are also likely to cost more to the customer. Those products that are "made in the USA" have the vast majority of the parts and even large subassemblies come from overseas. Sure some parts are actually fabricated by suppliers in the US, but not most. Furthermore, the quality of components made overseas is often better than those made in the US. Assuming you have a competent quality department doing the audits and approvals.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Good way to look at and if he is able to accomplish that, then it would be a good thing.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Do you believe that an educated voting public is preferable to an uneducated voting public?KCitons said:
KCitons
Footballguy
No. It's a moot point. The day that we establish education requirements on voting, is the day that this country deserves to crumble. We are not elitists. A person doesn't need to have a a certain level of education to be smart enough to vote on topics which are important to him or her. You of all people should understand this. The real Henry Ford had little formal education.
Now if you want to change your statement to informed voting public verses uninformed. Then yes.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
I didn’t say anything about requirements. I asked if you think it’s preferable that our voting population be educated.
KCitons
Footballguy
The Commish
Footballguy
I'm not following your logic at all. Seem to be hopping from one topic/problem to another. I thought we were talking about outsourcing and bringing jobs back to this country. Now we are talking about CEOs and his friends? There's no question, the bottom line for companies drive every single one of their decisions. It's a big reason I believe, and said such in the "what do conservatives want" thread, it's government's role to protect us from our own companies as well. Getting back to topic....as long as companies can get labor cheaper elsewhere, that's what they're going to do. Education is a big part of us figuring out how to make things less expensive here and/or more efficient. The answer to that is most certainly automation and technology which requires education in those specific areas.
The Commish
Footballguy
Then you're NEVER (and I hardly ever use that term in discussions like this) going to get the jobs back here you are seeking.
By the way, what's the difference between "educated" and "informed" in terms of this discussion?
KCitons
Footballguy
Simple, I don't think we (as a nation) should prefer to have our voting population educated or uneducated, white or black, rich or poor. The people that we vote to represent us, represent all of us. To think otherwise is an elitist attitude and one that I'm surprised to hear from some of you in this forum.Then you're NEVER (and I hardly ever use that term in discussions like this) going to get the jobs back here you are seeking.
By the way, what's the difference between "educated" and "informed" in terms of this discussion?
Educated is formal, informed can come from many other sources.
The Commish
Footballguy
Personally, I think you are bending over backwards and twisting yourself into a pretzel to make the word "educated" mean something more than how it's being used here, but thanks for the clarification. FWIW....I want our entire population educated. It's the only way we are going to survive in this new world economy and be able to adapt in the future. Knowledge really is power.
KCitons
Footballguy
Also, I suggest you back any sort of gun reform. At a point in time, this country will be divided between those that don't want, or can't achieve a level of education to obtain a living wage and those that will fall in the top 10%. There will be no middle ground and those stuck there will be 80% of the population. A well armed population.Then you're NEVER (and I hardly ever use that term in discussions like this) going to get the jobs back here you are seeking.
By the way, what's the difference between "educated" and "informed" in terms of this discussion?
KCitons
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
First, yes you can.
Second, no one is suggesting you do. Simply that we make it available.
Look at the governments of populations without access to education and those with access. Which do you think are better?
KCitons
Footballguy
You mean like our public school system? Some people just don't want to go to school. Especially at 18 years of age. They don't have the maturity level to understand the importance.
KCitons
Footballguy
You guys keep trying to silence me. Yet, here I am., now quit indulging it.
Elitists?
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Yes, that’s it. We’re all elitists and you are the poor, downtrodden masses. You poor, poor man.
The Commish
Footballguy
You could....but I wouldn't.
Those that don't want to do the work to have a good job don't have to. Don't whine about not having things like everyone else or that you can't find a job or that your job was taken overseas because you didn't know how to do the job and weren't willing to learn.
msommer
Footballguy
But isn't that the premise of his "argument" that half the workforce shouldn't be "forced" to work (no prizes for guesses about which half that would be)?
Honestly I can neither find heads or tails in the discussion and how it is in any way relevant (except through faerie dust and unicorn farts) to the ongoing and escalating trade war
Last edited by a moderator:
KCitons
Footballguy
In the last page you've made it clear that educated people are preferable and Slapdash is asking people to stop speaking to me. How is this any different than saying that it's preferable that only men or white people should be allowed to vote? Do you think there are educated people in this country that voted for Trump? or Nixon? or any other President or politician that you may not see as the best choice? I stated it was a moot point in my original comment. You can't force people to educate themselves so why does it matter.
KCitons
Footballguy
Which half do you think it is? I said that you can't force people to go to school. Especially if you expect them to pay thousands of dollars in tuition that they don't have. Just to get a job that may or may not be there when they graduate.
If our trade deficit wasn't so imbalanced and the jobs that have been shipped overseas in the last 30 years were still here, would there be tariffs? There is your relevance.
msommer
Footballguy
Not going to get tricked into your unicorn infested world again. Go bother someone else
Similar threads
