TRADE THREAD- President Trump signs Phase One of China agreement, China promises to double its purchases in 2020 (1 Viewer)

[Henry Ford]

In the last page you've made it clear that educated people are preferable and Slapdash is asking people to stop speaking to me. How is this any different than saying that it's preferable that only men or white people should be allowed to vote? Do you think there are educated people in this country that voted for Trump? or Nixon? or any other President or politician that you may not see as the best choice? I stated it was a moot point in my original comment. You can't force people to educate themselves so why does it matter. 

It’s different for a number of reasons.  Chief among them that lack of education isn’t an immutable characteristic, along with there being a host of verifiable reasons to prefer education to ignorance among a population.  Preferring that all people have the opportunity to get an education isn’t elitist.  And doing so in part because it is preferable that our average level of education go up instead of down also isn’t elitist.  

Also, what I’m proposing is making education available to everyone, not forcing anyone to get educated or stopping people from voting.  

It matters because as a nation we have to decide what we want to be moving forward.  If we want to be a nation of uneducated, easily-led, easily manipulated voters, we should by all means stop talking about providing more affordable or free educational opportunities.  

 

[Henry Ford]

The most dangerous way to handle government is to have the people say “well, I don’t understand any of this.  I’m sure they know better than I do.  I’ll let them handle it.”

If you can’t see that the people who want that are the “elitists” looking down on everyone voting for them, we’re farther along than I’d imagined. 

 

[The Commish]

But isn't that the premise of his "argument" that half the workforce shouldn't be "forced" to work (no prizes for guesses about which half that would be)?

Honestly I can neither find heads or tails in the discussion and how it is in any way relevant (except through faerie dust and unicorn farts) to the ongoing and escalating trade war

I don't really know honestly.  It's just a bunch of questions going in a bunch of different directions.  It SEEMED like he was concerned that jobs were shipping overseas and that we needed to keep them here.  That's a valid concern.  However, it's not up to the government to keep them here though I do believe they play a part in helping us be competitive in the global market.  It's our job to show that we have the knowledge and education to do these new types of jobs.  Talking about the way things were 50 years ago as if that has anything to do with how the world works today isnt going to get us there.

 

[The Commish]

Which half do you think it is? I said that you can't force people to go to school. Especially if you expect them to pay thousands of dollars in tuition that they don't have. Just to get a job that may or may not be there when they graduate. 

If our trade deficit wasn't so imbalanced and the jobs that have been shipped overseas in the last 30 years were still here, would there be tariffs? There is your relevance. 

Sure....if everything were the same as it was 30 years ago, then the conditions would be the same as they were 30 years ago.  Problem is, virtually NOTHING is the same as it was 30 years ago and it's never going to be that way again.  We have to adapt.  Part of that adaptation is putting more in our toolboxes than "can do attitude".  If one doesn't want to get those tools, and many of them can be found for a couple hundred bucks at your local community/tech school or even in high school for free, then that's on that person.  

 

[thayman]

You can't force education on people. It doesn't work that way. 

That's true.  Hell a month ago you didn't know how The Speaker of The House was elected.  Do you know how they're appointed now?

 

[James Daulton]

Never thought I'd see anyone arguing against education on this forum.

What it does is tell me a lot about the way that particular dude thinks.  And now you're an elitist if you think an educated populous is better for the country?  This is the mindset we have to deal with in this country.

Those who don't adapt get left behind.  That's how life works for all animals. 

 

[msommer]

Never thought I'd see anyone arguing against education on this forum.

What it does is tell me a lot about the way that particular dude thinks.  And now you're an elitist if you think an educated populous is better for the country?  This is the mindset we have to deal with in this country.

Those who don't adapt get left behind.  That's how life works for all animals. 

"An educated workforce is one that has demands. An educated voting population is one that has questions.

To be avoided at all costs"

/Goppersoftoday

 

[KCitons]

That's true.  Hell a month ago you didn't know how The Speaker of The House was elected.  Do you know how they're appointed now?

I think you have me mixed up with someone else.

 

[KCitons]

Never thought I'd see anyone arguing against education on this forum.

What it does is tell me a lot about the way that particular dude thinks.  And now you're an elitist if you think an educated populous is better for the country?  This is the mindset we have to deal with in this country.

Those who don't adapt get left behind.  That's how life works for all animals. 

Show me where I argued against education?

I said that there are people that don't have the money and can't get the education required. There are others that may not have an ability to learn at a level required to get a degree. There are people that can work hard and build things with their hands and do a great job at it. Are you proposing we bash those people on the head with a shovel, since they serve no purpose in your society? Or perhaps they do. Serving you that super sized Big Mac and laundering your shirts. 

 

[KCitons]

Sure....if everything were the same as it was 30 years ago, then the conditions would be the same as they were 30 years ago.  Problem is, virtually NOTHING is the same as it was 30 years ago and it's never going to be that way again.  We have to adapt.  Part of that adaptation is putting more in our toolboxes than "can do attitude".  If one doesn't want to get those tools, and many of them can be found for a couple hundred bucks at your local community/tech school or even in high school for free, then that's on that person.  

The only thing that changed is the desire for the 1% to have more. Had the problem been handled decades ago, the price of products made in America would have increased incrementally. To make the switch now, may be too much. What do you do with a 50 year old factory worker that hasn't been to school in 30 years? Maybe he/she has lost a good paying job with benefits. He's trying to pay for an education for his kids and his mortgage. He should just find a way to go back to school to become an Network Engineer in the hopes that some company will hire a guy in his mid 50's?  Just hit him over the head with the shovel. It's a losing proposition.

 

[James Daulton]

Show me where I argued against education?

I said that there are people that don't have the money and can't get the education required. There are others that may not have an ability to learn at a level required to get a degree. There are people that can work hard and build things with their hands and do a great job at it. Are you proposing we bash those people on the head with a shovel, since they serve no purpose in your society? Or perhaps they do. Serving you that super sized Big Mac and laundering your shirts. 

Why are you focused on degrees?  Education includes tradesmen as well.  The days however of people being able to support a family stocking shelves is just about over.  We can whine about it or we can help those folks re-orient into other jobs that can't easily be outsourced to 3rd world countries. 

 

[The Commish]

The only thing that changed is the desire for the 1% to have more. Had the problem been handled decades ago, the price of products made in America would have increased incrementally. To make the switch now, may be too much. What do you do with a 50 year old factory worker that hasn't been to school in 30 years? Maybe he/she has lost a good paying job with benefits. He's trying to pay for an education for his kids and his mortgage. He should just find a way to go back to school to become an Network Engineer in the hopes that some company will hire a guy in his mid 50's?  Just hit him over the head with the shovel. It's a losing proposition.

This simply isn't true.  There are literally thousands of things that have changed, all of which are part of the equation that got us to this point.

 

[James Daulton]

The only thing that changed is the desire for the 1% to have more. Had the problem been handled decades ago, the price of products made in America would have increased incrementally. To make the switch now, may be too much. What do you do with a 50 year old factory worker that hasn't been to school in 30 years? Maybe he/she has lost a good paying job with benefits. He's trying to pay for an education for his kids and his mortgage. He should just find a way to go back to school to become an Network Engineer in the hopes that some company will hire a guy in his mid 50's?  Just hit him over the head with the shovel. It's a losing proposition.

It's governments responsibility to take care of this guy who couldn't see the writing on the wall?

Personal responsibility down?

 

[The Commish]

Had the problem been handled decades ago, the price of products made in America would have increased incrementally.

I'll say I agree with this 100%.  The government should have addressed this decades ago and created the protections for the people like other countries have.  They all seemed to see what was happening, analyzed what they needed to do as a country, and started doing it.  Meanwhile, we are sitting here with our fingers in our noses arguing that the government doesn't have a place in our personal lives and they certainly don't need to be in our economic equations.  Well, that group won for a time and here we are.  Now we have individuals angry that they can't compete in this world economy.  And they can't....not by themselves.  They are up against companies in their own country, other countries and companies in those countries.  I don't know what the #### they expected to be honest  

 

[KCitons]

This simply isn't true.  There are literally thousands of things that have changed, all of which are part of the equation that got us to this point.

What do you do with the 50 year old factory worker?

 

[KCitons]

It's governments responsibility to take care of this guy who couldn't see the writing on the wall?

Personal responsibility down?

Then we should do away with welfare and any aid for people crossing the border illegally as well?

 

[KCitons]

Why are you focused on degrees?  Education includes tradesmen as well.  The days however of people being able to support a family stocking shelves is just about over.  We can whine about it or we can help those folks re-orient into other jobs that can't easily be outsourced to 3rd world countries. 

Trade work is great. Let's take millions of production workers and retrain them a tradesmen. Do you think the job market can find jobs for all those people? 

Bottom line is that there are not enough living wage jobs in this country to allow people to pursue the American dream. If you have a company full of managers and nobody to do the work, nothing happens. The only way the managers, VP's and CEO succeed is by paying low wages to its workers. The solution for decades has been to move production overseas. Perhaps we should move everything overseas. We can produce nothing here. But, that also means we move the managers and CEO's overseas as well. It'll just be a bunch of zombies preying on each other. 

 

[toshiba]

What do you do with the 50 year old factory worker?

Given them a job with a living wage, like all jobs should have!  Stock shelves, cashier, dig ditches, WalMart greeter....   just all job should have a living wage to start with.

 

[dutch]

What do you do with the 50 year old factory worker?

BIG

 

[dutch]

Then we should do away with welfare and any aid for people crossing the border illegally as well?

BIG

 

[dutch]

Trade work is great. Let's take millions of production workers and retrain them a tradesmen. Do you think the job market can find jobs for all those people? 

Bottom line is that there are not enough living wage jobs in this country to allow people to pursue the American dream. If you have a company full of managers and nobody to do the work, nothing happens. The only way the managers, VP's and CEO succeed is by paying low wages to its workers. The solution for decades has been to move production overseas. Perhaps we should move everything overseas. We can produce nothing here. But, that also means we move the managers and CEO's overseas as well. It'll just be a bunch of zombies preying on each other. 

BIG

 

[KCitons]

BIG

Believe it or not, I'm not a fan of BIG. It may be a pipe dream, but I want a country where people can work for a living. 

 

[The Commish]

What do you do with the 50 year old factory worker?

I don't do anything with him.  It's up to him to figure out how to best position himself for success.  If this person came to me and asked for advice, I'd encourage him to put more tools in his toolbox and find something he likes to do.  I'd point him to one of the many companies that hire people like him to these retraining programs.  They are usually paid appointments with an agreement to stay at that company for X amount of years.

 

[dutch]

Believe it or not, I'm not a fan of BIG. It may be a pipe dream, but I want a country where people can work for a living. 

I hear ya, but...you just made so many arguments in favor of a BIG I am trying to find way to get you over your last hurdle which seems to me to be an ingrained sense that hard work alone is enough for an individual to compensate for society losing jobs at a macro level.

 

[The Commish]

Believe it or not, I'm not a fan of BIG. It may be a pipe dream, but I want a country where people can work for a living. 

I think there is more to your "want" than you're willing to admit, because we live in a country where people can work for a living.  The disconnect is, the types of jobs we have readily available don't match the skill sets of those looking for jobs.  Well, I can't magically turn my networking engineering job into a factory job making widgets so it's up to the guy looking for work to adapt.

So it seems that what you really want is a country where people can work making a living doing______________________________________ (insert whatever job(s) you have in mind here)

 

[KCitons]

I hear ya, but...you just made so many arguments in favor of a BIG I am trying to find way to get you over your last hurdle which seems to me to be an ingrained sense that hard work alone is enough for an individual to compensate for society losing jobs at a macro level.

Thanks. I understand what you're saying. I know people (like my dad) who would never take a hand out. He'd rather work two minimum wage jobs before that.

 

[KCitons]

I think there is more to your "want" than you're willing to admit, because we live in a country where people can work for a living.  The disconnect is, the types of jobs we have readily available don't match the skill sets of those looking for jobs.  Well, I can't magically turn my networking engineering job into a factory job making widgets so it's up to the guy looking for work to adapt.

So it seems that what you really want is a country where people can work making a living doing______________________________________ (insert whatever job(s) you have in mind here)

I posted the minimum wages by states and the minimum living wage by states. There is a fundamental gap in those numbers. And that's just at the bottom of the food chain. I also pointed out that as you move up the food chain, there are less jobs available for the mass of people that are moving from a blue collar job to a white collar job. If we are all managers, who's left for them to manage?

 

[dutch]

Thanks. I understand what you're saying. I know people (like my dad) who would never take a hand out. He'd rather work two minimum wage jobs before that.

What if he could work one job, say at an auto parts store cuz he fancies himself a gear head, and he made enough even at $10/hr for 30hrs a week that he and your mom could live "ok".  Would that be preferable to your dad working two jobs?

 

[KCitons]

What if he could work one job, say at an auto parts store cuz he fancies himself a gear head, and he made enough even at $10/hr for 30hrs a week that he and your mom could live "ok".  Would that be preferable to your dad working two jobs?

Everyone's "ok" is going to be different. Someone that is 50 years old and in good health may be fine with that. Someone at 59 and in poor health would probably have a hard time putting food on the table.

 

[dutch]

Everyone's "ok" is going to be different. Someone that is 50 years old and in good health may be fine with that. Someone at 59 and in poor health would probably have a hard time putting food on the table.

Why do you say that?  Oh I forgot to add that inexpensive healthcare is available to all under any circumstance.  Does that help in your scenario?

 

[Sheriff Bart]

Kent Bacus, the head of the US Cattleman's Beef Association just stated that the tariffs are going to really hurt its members but they are willing to take the short term pain because things will be better long term.  This is somehow going to happen by forcing China to change some laws to give them more access to the country.  He also said something about "nonscience based laws" so guessing he's another climate change denier.

 

[The Commish]

I posted the minimum wages by states and the minimum living wage by states. There is a fundamental gap in those numbers. And that's just at the bottom of the food chain. I also pointed out that as you move up the food chain, there are less jobs available for the mass of people that are moving from a blue collar job to a white collar job. If we are all managers, who's left for them to manage?

Right...this is my point.  The jobs we have are of variety X and the people looking for jobs aren't equipped to fill those jobs.  This means workers have to change or jobs have to change or both.  Since the job can't change that leaves us with workers.  If they don't want to go to the jobs, that's their choice.  I'm not sure what else to say.

ETA:  I reread what you wrote, and I'm not sure I understand what you mean.  Who are the people moving from blue collar to white collar jobs?

 

[msommer]

Given them a job with a living wage, like all jobs should have!  Stock shelves, cashier, dig ditches, WalMart greeter....   just all job should have a living wage to start with.

That would be my plan B. Plan A would be to teach them a new trade

 

[Sheriff Bart]

Given them a job with a living wage, like all jobs should have!  Stock shelves, cashier, dig ditches, WalMart greeter....   just all job should have a living wage to start with.

That would be my plan B. Plan A would be to teach them a new trade

I've done a complete 180 on this and would support both plans.

 

[Sheriff Bart]

Whirlpool (WHR) shares tumbled 8% in after-hours trading on Monday after missing Wall Street expectations for a host of factors, including weakness in international markets and rising costs that have likely been exacerbated by U.S. tariffs. The company cut its earnings-per-share expectations for 2018 to a range of $14.20-$14.80, down from earlier guidance of $14.50-$15.50.

Whirlpool second-quarter posted EPS of $3.20 after excluding one-time items, compared with Wall Street expectations for $3.69.

The company posted a loss in an international segment encompassing Europe, the Middle East and Africa, and had to write down the value of assets in the region. Whirlpool got hit by a triple-whammy there: raw material prices rose and sales volume dropped even as it took a hit from currency impacts.

In North America, sales slipped 2.2% as the company shipped lower volumes of products but sold more higher-priced goods. Raw materials costs rose, likely impacted by the Trump administration's tariffs on steel and aluminum. Whirlpool has benefited on the one hand from the administration's tariffs on washing machines, but has been hurt by the steel and aluminum tariffs. A company spokesman did not immediately respond to a question about the impact of tariffs on second-quarter earnings.

 

[The Commish]

It's going to take a bit, but you'll probably see it prior to 2020 election cycle.  There's already signs of impact on individual companies and industries.  If you need a new washer/dryer, go get them.  The steel and aluminum tariffs are going to impact 400-500K jobs in this country along with increased costs for the product themselves.  That's my estimate.  I'm sure you can get expert analysis with more accurate numbers on the google.

They'll try to blame it on something else like the rise in interest rates or some bull#### like that, but it's all going to be tied right back to these decisions.  It will be as clear to cause as the recent tax cuts.

 

 

[KCitons]

Why do you say that?  Oh I forgot to add that inexpensive healthcare is available to all under any circumstance.  Does that help in your scenario?

Sure, that helps. Everyone's scenario. 

We've also tried to cover affordable education. We just need to figure our retirement and things will be a lot better for everyone. How do we pay for all of these things?

 

[KCitons]

Right...this is my point.  The jobs we have are of variety X and the people looking for jobs aren't equipped to fill those jobs.  This means workers have to change or jobs have to change or both.  Since the job can't change that leaves us with workers.  If they don't want to go to the jobs, that's their choice.  I'm not sure what else to say.

ETA:  I reread what you wrote, and I'm not sure I understand what you mean.  Who are the people moving from blue collar to white collar jobs?

Everyone that is losing their jobs to overseas workers. Lets take an average factory that employs 1000 workers. They decide to outsource their production to China. We now have a 1000 people that need to re-educate themselves to find new jobs. For argument sake, lets say they all go into IT. You now have a 1000 new IT workers that will flood the market. Are there jobs in there current market for 1000 new IT workers? Maybe. If not, now your expecting people to sell their homes and relocate. Most companies won't pay relocation costs for entry level people. They get to start a new life, in new place, with student loan debt and relocation fees. Sounds neat. How long before they see an ROI?  Especially if they are in their 50's?

 

[The Commish]

Sure, that helps. Everyone's scenario. 

We've also tried to cover affordable education. We just need to figure our retirement and things will be a lot better for everyone. How do we pay for all of these things?

Well....college for all is approx $47 billion a year.  That number includes free community college for all and free college for those who's families make less than $125K a year.  Right now the total cost for college is $70 billion a year for the country.  That's a third more than Bernie's proposal.  He wants to tax speculation trading on wall street and various other taxes.  Personally?  i'd be asking the question, is there a significant difference for our military to be given $400B a year and $353B a year?  They could also use part of the billions they make on the current student loan program to help pay for it.  I figure, if we can find the monies to dump in the laps of the super rich and big business, we can find a fraction of that to pay for education.

 

[The Commish]

Everyone that is losing their jobs to overseas workers. Lets take an average factory that employs 1000 workers. They decide to outsource their production to China. We now have a 1000 people that need to re-educate themselves to find new jobs. For argument sake, lets say they all go into IT. You now have a 1000 new IT workers that will flood the market. Are there jobs in there current market for 1000 new IT workers? Maybe. If not, now your expecting people to sell their homes and relocate. Most companies won't pay relocation costs for entry level people. They get to start a new life, in new place, with student loan debt and relocation fees. Sounds neat. How long before they see an ROI?  Especially if they are in their 50's?

In Charlotte alone there are that many IT jobs, but that's not really the point.  I don't expect anything out of anyone other than they have a plan for if something should happen to their jobs.  We should all have such a plan.  I do.  I fully assume that once I get close to retirement age, I will be one of the first to go in a "downsizing" event.  If something happens to my job, I'm going into one of the trades.  I can make pretty close to what I'm making now as an electrician or a plumber....jack of all trades handyman with a GC license is an option too.  I have no idea if companies don't pay relocation costs or not.  All I know is, for us, we've moved three times and the employers paid for it.  One of those times was last year and the employer is a small liberal arts school.  If they want the people, they'll pay especially for jobs they can't fill fast enough.  

Is any of this ideal?  No.  Is it always fair?  Of course not.  That's life.  But we can make it easier on ourselves if we work on ourselves to be more of a multi-tool rather than simply a hammer or a screw driver.

 

[KCitons]

In Charlotte alone there are that many IT jobs, but that's not really the point.  I don't expect anything out of anyone other than they have a plan for if something should happen to their jobs.  We should all have such a plan.  I do.  I fully assume that once I get close to retirement age, I will be one of the first to go in a "downsizing" event.  If something happens to my job, I'm going into one of the trades.  I can make pretty close to what I'm making now as an electrician or a plumber....jack of all trades handyman with a GC license is an option too.  I have no idea if companies don't pay relocation costs or not.  All I know is, for us, we've moved three times and the employers paid for it.  One of those times was last year and the employer is a small liberal arts school.  If they want the people, they'll pay especially for jobs they can't fill fast enough.  

Is any of this ideal?  No.  Is it always fair?  Of course not.  That's life.  But we can make it easier on ourselves if we work on ourselves to be more of a multi-tool rather than simply a hammer or a screw driver.

In January, our organization did something most corporations wouldn't even think of. The CEO looked at the salary of some of our lowest paid workers. She realized that some were making less, or as much, as some of the people we help. How could we be honest about our mission, when we were part of the problem? We had a lump sum of money available for merit increases. Most of the executive and management team decided to take less or forego merit increases to allow increases for hourly workers. It's not difficult to see a problem and fix that problem. It takes unselfish CEO's and management to care about it's worker and not their second homes. 

 

[Henry Ford]

Believe it or not, I'm not a fan of BIG. It may be a pipe dream, but I want a country where people can work for a living. 

Big doesn’t keep people from working.  In fact, it solves that problem with Medicaid, disability, and other poverty benefits. 

 

[The Duff Man]

All the discussion on the need for change is good and real.....and none of what Trump has done will do anything to make this change happen. 

When you are bleeding out from a gash in your arm you also "need to do something". 

But the answer isn't to shoot yourself in the foot. 

 

[The Commish]

In January, our organization did something most corporations wouldn't even think of. The CEO looked at the salary of some of our lowest paid workers. She realized that some were making less, or as much, as some of the people we help. How could we be honest about our mission, when we were part of the problem? We had a lump sum of money available for merit increases. Most of the executive and management team decided to take less or forego merit increases to allow increases for hourly workers. It's not difficult to see a problem and fix that problem. It takes unselfish CEO's and management to care about it's worker and not their second homes. 

awesome  

 

[The Commish]

How do we pay for all of these things?

To put things in terms of actual actions taken by this administration.....take the money and interest on the deficit spending for these tax cuts and you can fund "education for all" for 30+ years

 

[msommer]

Well....college for all is approx $47 billion a year.  That number includes free community college for all and free college for those who's families make less than $125K a year.  Right now the total cost for college is $70 billion a year for the country.  That's a third more than Bernie's proposal.  He wants to tax speculation trading on wall street and various other taxes.  Personally?  i'd be asking the question, is there a significant difference for our military to be given $400B a year and $353B a year?  They could also use part of the billions they make on the current student loan program to help pay for it.  I figure, if we can find the monies to dump in the laps of the super rich and big business, we can find a fraction of that to pay for education.

Make that $700bn and $653 bn respectively

 

[msommer]

All the discussion on the need for change is good and real.....and none of what Trump has done will do anything to make this change happen. 

When you are bleeding out from a gash in your arm you also "need to do something". 

But the answer isn't to shoot yourself in the foot. 

Good luck. A few of us have tried that line of argument before...

 

[Politician Spock]

is there a significant difference for our military to be given $400B a year and $353B a year?  

To the companies in the military industry, ABSOLUTELY!!! Their market would shrink 12%. Pretty sure they'd lobby heavily against that happening.

Oh wait.... they already do. 

 

[timschochet]

Trump: “Tariffs are the greatest!” 

 

[The Commish]

The biggest story in this whole thing to me is not the tariffs, rather the silence of our Congress.  It's absolutely unacceptable that they are allowing this crap to be done under the guise of national security.  It's probably the biggest crock of #### out of all his positions.