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Transgender People - The Basics (1 Viewer)

Seems like you are an ####### 


Quite frankly, sir...you are an #######
So it's just okay to curse at others with different beliefs now? So tolerant and progressive.

Give them hell @dotman! This kind of thing drives me nuts about the intellects and righteous of the world.

To them, you're the bad person. Yet you have never attacked them or called them names. But look what they've done to you. They insist that they are the "good people". It's very telling.

 
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Your idea of what is rational is purely self serving and in the long run we will see who is rational...

There are Jewish sects that believe it is rational to suck the blood out of circumsized penis- it's how babies get herpes and die from circumcision. And a large part of the Arab world thinks it is perfectly rational to marry and procreate with their first cousin...

So you see there is a lot of irrationality going around...

Would you like to keep poking me because I will give you more facts about stupid irrational humans that blame all the ills of their life on a false God construct and do nothing to make the world a better place.
Why do you think those aforementioned Jews and Arabs aren’t doing anything to make the world a better place?

 
So it's just okay to curse at others with different beliefs now? So tolerant and progressive.

Give them hell @dotman! This kind of thing drives me nuts about the intellects and righteous of the world.

To them, you're the bad person. Yet you have never attacked them or called them names. But look what they've done to you. They insist that they are the "good people". It's very telling.
I didn’t call him an ####### because of his beliefs. I called him an ####### because of his ridiculous self righteous posts.

 
I didn’t call him an ####### because of his beliefs. I called him an ####### because of his ridiculous self righteous posts.
True.  But the hypocrisy is that in other parts of this forum any name calling at all would result in the report button being mashed and timeouts given.  You can't even use a emoji to laugh at someone's self righteous posts.

 
Your idea of what is rational is purely self serving and in the long run we will see who is rational...

There are Jewish sects that believe it is rational to suck the blood out of circumsized penis- it's how babies get herpes and die from circumcision. And a large part of the Arab world thinks it is perfectly rational to marry and procreate with their first cousin...

So you see there is a lot of irrationality going around...

Would you like to keep poking me because I will give you more facts about stupid irrational humans that blame all the ills of their life on a false God construct and do nothing to make the world a better place.
Both of those examples are a result of religion.  

 
But what is really odd about the whole thing is in talking with my Mother in hindsight she sounds exactly like you when talking about the neighbor's son. "Oh, since he was born, he always wanted to play dress up and play with dolls and he was always like that". When she talks about me she says I liked my cars and toys for boys- but I didn't have a sister- there were no girls toys around. And I definetely remember him and I were good friends and we would ride our bikes, climb trees, play cars and have wars with water guns. All of which he seemed to enjoy. For some odd reason there seems to be a disengenuous effort to act like he was always 100% feminine. It's weird. I feel like we may have just been judged at a young age to be one way or another and then children adapt to what they are told. I don't know if the neighbors kid every even got a chance to be straight. Basically he was told he was gay at a young age and what do you know he lived it. The way you spoke of your niece was EXACTLY like they speak of him in hindsight- but in this case it is not entirely true.
Or, maybe your mother was just much better at understanding and empathizing with a young boy in that situation than the prepubescent you and, quite likely, the fully mature you?

 
Your idea of what is rational is purely self serving and in the long run we will see who is rational...

There are Jewish sects that believe it is rational to suck the blood out of circumsized penis- it's how babies get herpes and die from circumcision. And a large part of the Arab world thinks it is perfectly rational to marry and procreate with their first cousin...

So you see there is a lot of irrationality going around...

Would you like to keep poking me because I will give you more facts about stupid irrational humans that blame all the ills of their life on a false God construct and do nothing to make the world a better place.
What is rational (and is not rational) has absolutely nothing to do with one's idea of what is rational. It's not subjective. It's not up to the person to define what is (or is not) rational.

Anything rational is based on, or in accordance with, reason or logic. Anything NOT based on, or in accordance with, reason or logic is NOT rational. 

That said, irrational people will struggle to accept this because.... well... their thought process is irrational. 

 
GM alias?
For it was just 1 day ago that I was in line at Rite-Aid and a young beautiful woman was in front of me.  While checking out, she told the cashier how should would be spending New Year's alone because she was unmarried and new to the city.  Crushing to overhear that a virile young woman of great.......pulchritude....would be spending her day alone.  Why it did not dawn on me immediately to do.......something....I can only blame on my own hideous appearance.....lack of game with the other sex....and a wife at home who is meaner than a rattlesnake sent down from YOUR god to trick Eve into biting an apple.  You know....incidentally....it's a little known fact that a certain sect of jews can suck an apple through a garden hose to ward off HIV and Rickets from new born babies.  I was given a great opportunity and, well let's face it, even if I tried to invite that hot young thing over, she would have called Rite-Aid security on me.  I am far from perfect......

I also encouraged some neighborhood kids to share their drugs with me as we all agreed that doing drugs and respecting other people's property was a fine way to live a life. I felt as if I really got through to them, but it could have been the LSD talking.  I said unto them.....'FOR THIS IS MY LAND....THE LAND OF MY PEOPLE....I GIVE YOU THIS CHANGE WITHOUT PUNISHMENT...."  Then my mean wife called me inside and asked me who I was yelling at, for there was nobody around, except me and my new men's medium t-shirt that I got at Rite-Aid for $9.99 that says "Foghat". 

Anyhow, let me tell you again how I'm right and you're wrong.....how I know the truth....and you have been lied and conned by a false god, like that time on Melrose Place where Michael was tricked into sleeping with his sister in law Sydney.  Although.....truth be told....she was way hotter than his wife anyway. 

 
True.  But the hypocrisy is that in other parts of this forum any name calling at all would result in the report button being mashed and timeouts given.  You can't even use a emoji to laugh at someone's self righteous posts.
I said it and stuck by it with full acknowledgement that I will get a timeout. I’m fine with that. The guy isn’t here to learn or understand or discuss, he’s here to explain why he’s smarter than everyone else. 

 
Ilov80s said:
I said it and stuck by it with full acknowledgement that I will get a timeout. I’m fine with that. The guy isn’t here to learn or understand or discuss, he’s here to explain why he’s smarter than everyone else. 
I think you'll be fine dotman doesn't seem like a snitch. In fact, if you don't get a timeout it speaks a lot of his character.

If he was truly trying to inconvenience you, you served him up a softball on a silver platter. Homie didn't swing.

 
Make no mistake, if society wants to allow arbitrary genders I am totally going adonic demi-god, and I won't tolerate anyone else's gender until I am accepted and supported exactly the same as everyone else.
I mean this is pretty much is the issue. You call yourself a demigod and said we can’t understand your superior intellect. 

 
I think you'll be fine dotman doesn't seem like a snitch. In fact, if you don't get a timeout it speaks a lot of his character.

If he was truly trying to inconvenience you, you served him up a softball on a silver platter. Homie didn't swing.
I’m not at all concerned about it. 

 
What I don't understand is how a transgender persons desire to be cast in the gender they intrinsically identify with has anything to do with anybody else.  By that I mean their expression of gender does not impact me one bit other than the basic civility it requires to address them by their preferred pronoun and offer them the dignity that we afford to anyone else on this planet.  Trust me I get the whole argument about hormones and genes and sexual assignment.  All of that doesn't matter much when we are talking about simple dignity to a fellow human being.  That is my take on it - I have friends that are gay, straight, transgender...but I don't treat them differently based upon their sexual or gender identity.  I treat them as friends.  If they are a-holes I will afford them the same disdain I show for anyone else that is an #####.  

 
This issue is continuing to grow and move its way into every part of our society.  I am a very conservative religious individual, but I honestly want to understand where trans people come from.  I feel like I have no idea what is going on and can't even grasp the very basics of the issue.

To start I just have to ask some questions that may seem basic to some, but I do not know the actual answers.

  1. What does it mean for someone to "feel like" they are a specific gender?
  2. How do we define what constitutes someone being a different gender than their natural sex (if that's even the correct term)?
  3. Is it tied to sexual orientation? (I think I know this, but want to make sure)
  4. How much of it is emotional, psychological, physiological, etc.?
  5. Who decides what the answers to these questions are?
When dealing with the societal ramifications of transgender people, I think a full understanding of what we are even talking about is important.

I'll hang up and listen.
Just had a class at work on this after a coworker became transgender. 

There's 4 components...

1) Sex assigned at birth: based on genitals at birth

2) Gender Identity: what the person feels, try are. Whatever a person tells you is their identity, is what they are. If your sex assigned at birth and gender identity match you are Cisgender, if they are opposite you are transgender.

3) Gender expression: what they choose to LOOK like. A Trans person can choose to keep their sex assigned at birth. 

4) Sexual orientation: who they want to sleep with in relation to your gender identity. 

So a person who is male at birth, who gender identifies as a man, and expresses his gender as a man, and is sexually attracted to females is a cis hetro-sexual. If that same person is sexual attracted to other men, he is a cis homo-sexual. Now if that same person is a male at birth, presents as a male, and is sexually attracted to females BUT gender identifies as a female...she is trans homosexual or trans lesbian. If that same trans person is sexual attracted to males she would be a trans heterosexual.

So really it's just a more detailed way to describe a person. Outside of athletic competitions I don't see the issue.

 
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I was curious why this thread was so popular, so I decided to check in. 

That...was...a...mistake!!!


It's all gotten very ugly. I had some recent personal experiences to share but I'm not going to bother with this thread anymore.  
It’s too bad one person has chosen to trash this thread and behave like a jerk. There are good sections of the thread where certain poster(s) weren’t posting.

 
One issue is some women are really creeped out by sharing a bathroom with some of these trans-women. It actually happened at a factory I worked at when a guy who looked like Ben Franklin started wearing dresses and wanted to use the women's bathroom. He exhibited some serious signs of mental illness including frequently talking to himself and reeking of body odor. I'm not sure he/she ever showered. The company gave in and said he could use the women's bathroom closest to his work area and all the people that were born women avoided her and that bathroom like the plague.
Whole lot of issues in this one example.  So anyone that has psychological/psychiatric or hygiene issues should not be allowed to use the bathroom (because all of those things are not germane to the transgender aspect of your argument)?

Are there not laws in place to handle assault or voyeurism if you are that concerned about an actual assault or someone posing as a transgender person to get a free peepshow?

 
Whole lot of issues in this one example.  So anyone that has psychological/psychiatric or hygiene issues should not be allowed to use the bathroom (because all of those things are not germane to the transgender aspect of your argument)?

Are there not laws in place to handle assault or voyeurism if you are that concerned about an actual assault or someone posing as a transgender person to get a free peepshow?
Also, I understand people's fear about their daughers being in a restroom with a strange and potentially unstable adult male. But don't they have those same concerns for their son being in a bathroom with a strange and potentially unstable adult male?

 
The DoD tried to provide us training on the basics of transgender along with implementing and enforcing military standards.  The presentations ended up with more questions than answers.  A lot more went into the transgender ban, but speaking from a military perspective, I think we're a long long way away from allowing transgenders to enlist.  

 
Also, I understand people's fear about their daughers being in a restroom with a strange and potentially unstable adult male. But don't they have those same concerns for their son being in a bathroom with a strange and potentially unstable adult male?
Yep. Privacy in public facilities is like oil and water. 

 
It's all gotten very ugly. I had some recent personal experiences to share but I'm not going to bother with this thread anymore.  
Sorry that's the case.  It would be nice if people would just be decent to each other.  Sadly, that doesn't always happen and it costs all of us learning experiences from people sharing their own.

 
Honestly, the discrimination that transgender people face today is remarkably close to the discrimination that gay people faced 20 years ago. 

Lots of doubt that people are "really" transgender, that they're"choosing" to be, or that they're just confused and are in a phase that they'll grow out of. Lots of inappropriate questions about genitals that are absolutely nobody's business. Lots of snide comments, or outright mockery for people not adhering to traditional societal norms.

How about a little common decency in how you treat people, even people that are different from you? How about believing people when they discuss a lived experience about which you have absolutely no idea?

 
Honestly, the discrimination that transgender people face today is remarkably close to the discrimination that gay people faced 20 years ago. 

Lots of doubt that people are "really" transgender, that they're"choosing" to be, or that they're just confused and are in a phase that they'll grow out of. Lots of inappropriate questions about genitals that are absolutely nobody's business. Lots of snide comments, or outright mockery for people not adhering to traditional societal norms.

How about a little common decency in how you treat people, even people that are different from you? How about believing people when they discuss a lived experience about which you have absolutely no idea?
Also lots of worry about them being around kids.

 
Honestly, the discrimination that transgender people face today is remarkably close to the discrimination that gay people faced 20 years ago. 

Lots of doubt that people are "really" transgender, that they're"choosing" to be, or that they're just confused and are in a phase that they'll grow out of. Lots of inappropriate questions about genitals that are absolutely nobody's business. Lots of snide comments, or outright mockery for people not adhering to traditional societal norms.

How about a little common decency in how you treat people, even people that are different from you? How about believing people when they discuss a lived experience about which you have absolutely no idea?
All true and good points.

The main issue I, and most of the people I interact with on a daily basis, have with all this is simply that we have a hard time buying into the "feeling" that someone is something they're biologically not.  What's the difference between a bio-male saying he feels like a woman, and the same person saying he feels like a panda?  

One explanation is that we assign gender roles which not everyone meets. If my son wants to be a stay at home dad, loves cooking and dancing, dislikes sports and Marvel movies, is he behaving like a girl? Or is he just being himself? I have no idea what it would feel like to feel like I'm a woman, I'm certainly willing to listen and learn. I'll even try to quell my skepticism.

 
All true and good points.

The main issue I, and most of the people I interact with on a daily basis, have with all this is simply that we have a hard time buying into the "feeling" that someone is something they're biologically not.  What's the difference between a bio-male saying he feels like a woman, and the same person saying he feels like a panda?  

One explanation is that we assign gender roles which not everyone meets. If my son wants to be a stay at home dad, loves cooking and dancing, dislikes sports and Marvel movies, is he behaving like a girl? Or is he just being himself? I have no idea what it would feel like to feel like I'm a woman, I'm certainly willing to listen and learn. I'll even try to quell my skepticism.
I believe you're asking in good faith, so I will tell you in that spirit that it is extremely offensive and dehumanizing to compare transgender people to animals.

While sexuality is a very imperfect analogy, swapping in homosexuality for gender in your thoughts above might again give you a bit of understanding:

We have a hard time buying into the "feeling" that someone is something they're biologically not.  What's the difference between a gay man saying he is attracted to another man, and the same person saying he'd like to screw a panda?  .... I have no idea what it would feel like to feel like I'm attracted to a man, I'm certainly willing to listen and learn. I'll even try to quell my skepticism.

Your question about gender roles is a good one. In fact, I think many transgender people would vastly prefer that they didn't have to identify as one gender or another and simply could be themselves, and watch Marvel movies or dance instead of playing sports or avoid dressing up like a princess to attend a school social function. So the next time you hear about a state adding an "other" option to go along M/F on drivers licenses, or people say they identify as non-gender conforming, understand that what people are trying to accomplish with that is "just being themself" 

 
I believe you're asking in good faith, so I will tell you in that spirit that it is extremely offensive and dehumanizing to compare transgender people to animals.

While sexuality is a very imperfect analogy, swapping in homosexuality for gender in your thoughts above might again give you a bit of understanding:

We have a hard time buying into the "feeling" that someone is something they're biologically not.  What's the difference between a gay man saying he is attracted to another man, and the same person saying he'd like to screw a panda?  .... I have no idea what it would feel like to feel like I'm attracted to a man, I'm certainly willing to listen and learn. I'll even try to quell my skepticism.

Your question about gender roles is a good one. In fact, I think many transgender people would vastly prefer that they didn't have to identify as one gender or another and simply could be themselves, and watch Marvel movies or dance instead of playing sports or avoid dressing up like a princess to attend a school social function. So the next time you hear about a state adding an "other" option to go along M/F on drivers licenses, or people say they identify as non-gender conforming, understand that what people are trying to accomplish with that is "just being themself" 
Maybe it's just time but homosexuality seems much more normal to me. 

There's no part of homosexuality that is directly at odds with reality. 

You might find it offensive but what about Bob, the 19yo who feels like he's 22? Should he be able to get a beer legally (assuming you don't believe the law should change for underage drinking). Obviously that's minimal compared to what transgender people feel they're experiencing, but what's the real difference? 

As for the identification on licenses, just get rid of that part entirely. There's no real need for it. For the school functions, just let people be themselves without labelling everyone. 

 
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I believe you're asking in good faith, so I will tell you in that spirit that it is extremely offensive and dehumanizing to compare transgender people to animals.

While sexuality is a very imperfect analogy, swapping in homosexuality for gender in your thoughts above might again give you a bit of understanding:

We have a hard time buying into the "feeling" that someone is something they're biologically not.  What's the difference between a gay man saying he is attracted to another man, and the same person saying he'd like to screw a panda?  .... I have no idea what it would feel like to feel like I'm attracted to a man, I'm certainly willing to listen and learn. I'll even try to quell my skepticism.

Your question about gender roles is a good one. In fact, I think many transgender people would vastly prefer that they didn't have to identify as one gender or another and simply could be themselves, and watch Marvel movies or dance instead of playing sports or avoid dressing up like a princess to attend a school social function. So the next time you hear about a state adding an "other" option to go along M/F on drivers licenses, or people say they identify as non-gender conforming, understand that what people are trying to accomplish with that is "just being themself" 
I don't think he was trying to compare transgender people to animals.  I think he was just giving an example of someone saying they feel like something they are not.  It could have been any word. 

 
Maybe it's just time but homosexuality seems much more normal to me. 

There's no part of homosexuality that is directly at odds with reality. 

You might find it offensive but what about Bob, the 19yo who feels like he's 22? Should he be able to get a beer legally (assuming you don't believe the law should change for underage drinking). Obviously that's minimal compared to what transgender people feel they're experiencing, but what's the real difference? 

As for the identification on licenses, just get rid of that part entirely. There's no real need for it. For the school functions, just let people be themselves without labelling everyone. 
There’s no part of being transgender that is directly at odds with reality, either. 

 
If you're telling about gender expression, I get it. If you're talking gender identity, how is that not in conflict? 
Just go ahead and define binary sex or gender for me so it includes everyone clearly in one or the other and excludes from each the people you don’t want to be able to choose. 

The idea we were all taught about what “male” and “female” mean in elementary school is simplistic, exclusionary, and frankly false.  From a scientific point of view.

 
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Just go ahead and define binary sex or gender for me so it includes everyone clearly in one or the other and excludes from each the people you don’t want to be able to choose. 

The idea we were all taught about what “male” and “female” mean in elementary school is simplistic, exclusionary, and frankly false.  From a scientific point of view.
I think you're making my point better than I did earlier. 

Just my :2cents:  but it seems the whole argument revolves around the idea that we must label ourselves. Take away the labels, let people just be people, remove society's apparent need to define us from birth, and we won't have the gender identity issue.

People who want to change their anatomy is what I don't really understand. 

 
I think you're making my point better than I did earlier. 

Just my :2cents:  but it seems the whole argument revolves around the idea that we must label ourselves. Take away the labels, let people just be people, remove society's apparent need to define us from birth, and we won't have the gender identity issue.

People who want to change their anatomy is what I don't really understand. 
People change their anatomy all the time.  Do you feel similarly about flat chested women who get breast implants? Or people who get lasik surgery? Gastric bypass? Hair plugs? Piercings? Tongue splitting? People in China who get their legs extended? The Asian and African tribes that extend the neck? Foot binding? Circumcision? Labiaplasty? 

 
Just a reminder, you didn’t say “we shouldn’t label each other” you said gender identity was in direct conflict with reality.  That’s not the case because reality is gender is not as objective as we treat it. 

 


As for the identification on licenses, just get rid of that part entirely. There's no real need for it. For the school functions, just let people be themselves without labelling everyone. 


Just a reminder, you didn’t say “we shouldn’t label each other” you said gender identity was in direct conflict with reality.  That’s not the case because reality is gender is not as objective as we treat it. 
Ok then.

 
Maybe it's just time but homosexuality seems much more normal to me. 

There's no part of homosexuality that is directly at odds with reality. 

You might find it offensive but what about Bob, the 19yo who feels like he's 22? Should he be able to get a beer legally (assuming you don't believe the law should change for underage drinking). Obviously that's minimal compared to what transgender people feel they're experiencing, but what's the real difference? 

As for the identification on licenses, just get rid of that part entirely. There's no real need for it. For the school functions, just let people be themselves without labelling everyone. 
You said for school functions. If you’re all for not calling each other male and female completely, I apologize if I misunderstood. 

 
You said for school functions. If you’re all for not calling each other male and female completely, I apologize if I misunderstood. 
Yeah, sorry that wasn't clearer. I meant that as one example. 

People change their anatomy all the time.  Do you feel similarly about flat chested women who get breast implants? Or people who get lasik surgery? Gastric bypass? Hair plugs? Piercings? Tongue splitting? People in China who get their legs extended? The Asian and African tribes that extend the neck? Foot binding? Circumcision? Labiaplasty? 
Most of those are ornamental and cultural.  Don't get me wrong here though, I'm not judging any of this as immoral, I just genuinely don't understand the basis. What people want to do, and not affect other people, is fine. I'm very much  of a "do what you want as long as it doesn't negatively impact others" philosophy. 

To be open and honest, I feel some pity for people who feel the need to do some of the things you mentioned, as they seem to come from a feeling of inadequacy.  

 
Yeah, sorry that wasn't clearer. I meant that as one example. 

Most of those are ornamental and cultural.  Don't get me wrong here though, I'm not judging any of this as immoral, I just genuinely don't understand the basis. What people want to do, and not affect other people, is fine. I'm very much  of a "do what you want as long as it doesn't negatively impact others" philosophy. 

To be open and honest, I feel some pity for people who feel the need to do some of the things you mentioned, as they seem to come from a feeling of inadequacy.  
Fair.

I think everyone feels inadequate without something.  I’m happy for people who can fix that and feel more like the people they want to feel like in their own skin. 

 
Jacob Tobia interview on gender.

"I want to live in a world where gender is a playful thing, where there's no patriarchy, no misogyny.  None of the things that make gender suck, and only the things that make gender great."

 

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