Trent Green Traded To Dolphins (1 Viewer)

[The Jacket]

Very reasonable signing for the Dolphins, as they get an unbelievabley underrated qb in Green. Check out the receivers he has had to work with in KC< so it is not a big deal he gets Miami's wideouts. He is a good decision maker, with a quick release. I think he is really going to surprise. Not as a fantasy qb, but as an NFL qb.

Least accurate comment in this thread, even among all the absurd speculation.Green's well-known (appartently not with general NFL fans, though) for how long he holds onto the ball.

 

[SSOG]

First of all, notice I made mention of system and WR. Further, you're prorating out 5 games. That's an extremely small sample to prorate and is completely jacked up by a 363 yard, 4 TD game in there. Which, with only a 5 game sample size is going to seriously skew the numbers.So headed into week 6 last year did you swap Carson Palmer for Rex Grossman? If you prorate out those 5 games he was on his way to a heckuva season himself.We saw what happened to Culpepper when Moss wasn't on the team. It wasn't pretty.

5 games is a small sample size? Well, you didn't have any problem making comparisons based off of those 5 games, did you? I mean, I wasn't the one that introduced the sample- you posted how he did in those 5 games and talked about how it was evidence that he wasn't talented, I was merely pointing out that that 5-game stretch, that stretch of time that you were displaying as evidence that he wasn't a great QB, *WAS STILL STUD-LEVEL PRODUCTION*. If you don't want to use a 5-game sample size, then don't give me the 5-game sample size in the first place.Also, we haven't seen how Culpepper has done when Moss wasn't on the team, we have seen how Culpepper has done when coming back early from a dramatic injury. Everyone gives Roethlisberger a pass because he rushed back from his injuries last year, but Culpepper rushed back EVEN MORE and he's thrown under the bus.You also mention how that one game skews the results. Okay, let's throw out that one game (ignoring the fact that you can't throw out games, and that there are always going to be big games to skew the results). Culpepper still averaged 204 yards passing, 1.2 TDs passing, .75 INTs passing, and 24.5 yards rushing. Pro-rate those numbers and you have 3264 passing, 392 rushing, 19.2 TDs passing, and 12 INTs. Seems like a pretty weak season, right? Well, since rushing yardage is worth twice as much as passing yardage, that's the equivalent of over 4,000 yards passing, and it would have ranked Daunte Culpepper as the #8 Fantasy QB last year. Take away all of his quality receivers, give him absolutely NO running game to work with, throw out all of his best games, and he's *STILL* a starter-caliber fantasy QB. Do you want to eliminate his two best games without Moss, now? Would you rather we just pro-rate his worst game without Moss and judge him entirely on that?

I'll buy that to an extent, but I can't recall the last time a QBs numbers dropped off that badly for more than a game or two when losing a WR. Further, what do you make of all those other guys that went into Minnesota with Moss and far eclipsed their career averages? It's the same thing Culpepper was doing, we just didn't have any numbers from other teams like we did for the other guys to compare to yet.

From what I remember, the only "career number" that those guys wound up eclipsing was the TDs per game number. For instance, let's look at Frerotte- he averaged 230 yards, 2.33 TDs, and .66 INTs in 2003 in Minnesota... and 250 yards, 1.3 TDs, and 1.1 INTs in 2000 in Denver. He averaged 211 yards, 1.3 TDs, and .9 INTs in all of the games that he started and finished in Miami in 2005. He averaged 235 yards, 1 TD, and .8 INTs in 1999 in Detroit. He averaged 215 yards, 1.4 TDs, and 1 INT per game in 1997 in Washington (again, only counting games where he played the complete game). As I said, the only number that jumps off the page as clearly out of line with his career averages is the TD number- and here's where your funny little "sample size" arguement rears its ugly head again, because Frerotte only played 3 games for Minny in 2003, and one of them was a 4-TD performance. I suppose you only like throwing out games when it helps your point, though. As for the rest of them... the only other QB I can remember you specifically bringing up is Randall Cunningham. Cunningham did have his best passing season in Minnesota- 3704 yards, 34 TDs, 10 INTs. Of course, his second best passing season was 3466/30/13, so it's not like this is so out of line with his career numbers, here. In fact, I suspect that Cunningham's passing "emergence" in Minnesota had more to do with the fact that he was finally injury-free again than it did with Randy Moss, as three times in his career Cunningham had either thrown for more yards, or been on pace to throw for more yards. Also, if you look at the career arc of mobile QBs, there typically is a dramatic rise in passing efficiency late in the career when the mobility winds down, anyway (look at Steve Young, John Elway, Steve McNair, Donovan McNabb, etc). It's possible that the only reason why it seems so dramatic with Cunningham is because he missed so much time. Instead of becoming a better passer every year, he was a good passer, then beset by injuries for 6 years, and then when he was healthy again he was a great passer.I really don't see any compelling evidence that playing with Randy Moss specifically led to a significant rise in performance, except possibly for the TD number... and Daunte Culpepper would have been an uberstud with half the TDs, anyway.Anyway, I'm not trying to bust your balls here. I like you, I think you're one of the better posters and that you bring a lot to the message board... I just thought you were using sketchy statistics and felt like you needed to be called on it.

Green's an immobile QB? Why, because he's over 36? Was Rich Gannon an immobile QB, too? Green seemed plenty mobile to me whenever I watched him, even if he wasn't likely to take off and run with the ball very often. According to www.footballoutsiders.com, from 2002 to 2004, no QB in the entire NFL provided more rushing value on a per-play basis than Green (he finished 1st, 2nd, and 2nd in rushing DVOA). Now, he might have slowed down a bit since then (I really don't think last season is going to be the best sample to look at), but mobility has always been a very underrated aspect of Green's game, in my opinion.

Yes he is. I don't know if you watched him last year but he was sacked 24 times in less than 8 games which equates to 48+ on prorated basis which would have been 2-3rd worst in the league. LOL @ rushing value stats from several years ago, I'd say the KC RB and line had a liitttle more to do with that than Green did and I'm not quite sure what that has to do with mobility or lack thereof. The fact is during that time period he had been chucking the ball behind one of the best, if not the best lines in the league. Last year their line took a step back and all the sudden Green is a tackling dummy. To compare Gannon and Green in terms of mobility is a joke. Gannon was a mobile QB and rushed for 464-2187-19 (in 126 when he was a healthy starter) as opposed to 233-878-6 in 112 career games for Green. Beyond the rushing stats Gannon's mobility in the pocket was >>>> better than Green's. Not bashing Green he's been a good QB but he's a pocket passer not a mobile QB by any stretch. He seriously looked like Bledsoe last year in terms of mobility.

As I said in my original post, I really don't think last season is the best sample to look at. Green was seriously injured and ridiculously gun-shy. Now, that might carry over and still be true this year (like it did for Tommy Maddox when he was almost paralyzed), but last year was not representative of Trent Green's talents or abilities, in my opinion.

 

[Banger]

As I said in my original post, I really don't think last season is the best sample to look at. Green was seriously injured and ridiculously gun-shy. Now, that might carry over and still be true this year (like it did for Tommy Maddox when he was almost paralyzed), but last year was not representative of Trent Green's talents or abilities, in my opinion.

I agree with you that I think Green is a better QB than he showed last year but that was always behind an excellent line and an excellent rushing attack. My big question is was it the injury that made him look/play so poorly, was it the fact that for the 1st time since he came to KC they had a below average line and now at his age he doesn't have the quickness/ability to avoid speedy attackers or some combination of the two. The fact is he's going to a team with probably an equally bad line (maybe worse) and not nearly the running threat that KC and given his limited mobility there's a definite potential for a long year. Drew Bledsoe (2 years younger than Green) was always a good QB too but there comes a time when you lose that fraction of a second reaction time and become a tackling dummy. Last year may have given us a glimpse of things to come.

 

[dolfanatic]

as a Dolphin's fan I would rather see if CPep has anything left or even give Lemon a shot. Green will take us from 2-3 wins to maybe 4-6 wins. I like Green and he will be a nice mentor to Beck, but he has no upside.

These were my thoughts exactly throughout this whole process negotiating with King Karl. I'd rather have the (likely early) 4th rounder next year. Green is an expensive stopgap measure when we had other options imo

 

[Bull Dozier]

Also, we haven't seen how Culpepper has done when Moss wasn't on the team, we have seen how Culpepper has done when coming back early from a dramatic injury. Everyone gives Roethlisberger a pass because he rushed back from his injuries last year, but Culpepper rushed back EVEN MORE and he's thrown under the bus.

Actually, we did see Culpepper without Moss on the team, in 2005. With many of the same parts from 2004, except Moss, Culpepper through 7 games was on pace for 4096 yards, 16 TDs, 32 INTs, 347 rushing yards and 3 TDs. He did have two good games in this stretch, against 3-13 New Orleans and 4-12 Green Bay. Otherwise he was a major liability, and the MAIN reason the Vikes were 2-4 heading into the Carolina game in which he was injured early.Regardless, the original point was whether or not Culpepper is a skilled NFL QB. Wether or not he is a quality FF QB, in my mind, is undebatable. His former mobility made him an elite fantasy QB. However, his mobility also made up for his lack of development in the passing game, in other words, it hid his weaknesses to a certain extent. We saw Culpepper on his own in 2005, and it was a shadow of what he looked like with Moss.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Also, we haven't seen how Culpepper has done when Moss wasn't on the team, we have seen how Culpepper has done when coming back early from a dramatic injury. Everyone gives Roethlisberger a pass because he rushed back from his injuries last year, but Culpepper rushed back EVEN MORE and he's thrown under the bus.

I wasn't aware that Culpepper was hurt headed into 2005. He played all 16 games in 2004 and I don't recall him getting hurt in the '05 preseason...If Roethlisberger were coming off a season where he had 3 times as many turnovers as touchdowns prior to getting injured and then been rushed back he probably would've been thrown under the bus as well. But he was coming off a Superbowl season with a 100 QB rating.Culpepper stunk it up in his first year without Moss, then got hurt, then rushed back and stunk it up just like he was beforehand. Roethlisberger won a Superbowl and had a QB rating near 100, then got hurt, then rushed back and stunk it up. Very different in terms of perception.

Pro-rate those numbers and you have 3264 passing, 392 rushing, 19.2 TDs passing, and 12 INTs. Seems like a pretty weak season, right? Well, since rushing yardage is worth twice as much as passing yardage, that's the equivalent of over 4,000 yards passing, and it would have ranked Daunte Culpepper as the #8 Fantasy QB last year.

I thought your argument was about talent, not how fantasy football scoring gives a less talented quarterback more value in such a game..

 

[Gold Plated Nails]

Am I the only one who thinks Trent Green is pretty much done as a viable QB? He looked flat out bad before and after his injury.

He got the concussion during Game 1 of last season. Please explain.

He played 3Qs and led the Cheifs to a whopping 3 pts in their home opener. Didn't reach 100yrds and threw a pick. They looked bad that game. Sure it was not alot to go off, but the aging QB looked inefective.When he came back he showed me nothing that I could conclude he would regain the form he once had. In fact during the playoff game I actually felt bad for him, he couldnt even get a 1st down.

That first game was also in a driving rain.......and he was running for his life as it was with a new Lt after Roaf abruptly retired.For KC's sake, I hope he gets 70% of the snaps...but I still don't think MIA is a playoff team.

So you are ignoring the second part of my statement, the more important part? The part where Green looked awful after he came back, while Huard, in the same offense looked very good. Kevin are you of the opinion Green is going to be a worthwhile starter in Fantasy Leagues this season?

At first, I thought like you -- that Trent was just absolutely done, esp. after the putrid way he played vs. IND in playoff game. Now, I see it differently in a sense. I mean this in the nicest way possible, but Trent Green acted like a hurt puppy a lot last season without Vermeil and Saunders there. He had the offense changed around him and he did not adapt---because he had been in the same offense since 1997.. Why do you all think he said MIA was the only place he would accept a trade. According to Chiefs brass, CLEV offered a similar deal months ago - but Trent wanted to play in a certain system.

Maybe what I mean is that it became obvious that Trent was a system QB. Herm changed the offense -- heck he installed Mike Solari as OC. Solari was an OL coach who knew nothing of a passing offense. You combine Green not being happy about those changes with losing Roaf, and then whatever effect the concussion had -- if any, then I think you have a bad-looking QB.

Now, he goes to MIA, and gets his ball back again, so to speak. He has his old QB coach, etc to make him comfortable. I like Trent Green as a man and a player, but he has come off awfully selfish the last 12 months or so.

To answer your question, I think we will have to wait and see, because of 2 factors.

1. A whole new OL in Miami

2. How well do Chambers, Hagan, Booker learn the offense?

My opinion - He is a decent option as a QB 2 in 12+ team leagues. if he is somewhat protected, he can still run that offense.

So you, like me, no longer believe Green to be a viable fantasy starter. Cheers to that. You still consider him a decent platoon guy though, or at least a dcent backup. For me, I'll roll the dice on my backup with a younger less proven guy. Either way we agree, you likely won't see a team in your fantasy football playoffs running Trent Green out there unless its an emergency.

 

[SSOG]

Also, we haven't seen how Culpepper has done when Moss wasn't on the team, we have seen how Culpepper has done when coming back early from a dramatic injury. Everyone gives Roethlisberger a pass because he rushed back from his injuries last year, but Culpepper rushed back EVEN MORE and he's thrown under the bus.

I wasn't aware that Culpepper was hurt headed into 2005. He played all 16 games in 2004 and I don't recall him getting hurt in the '05 preseason...

Ah, but he didn't play that poorly in 2005. Remember, we're allowed to throw out a single game as long as we believe it's an aberration, so if you throw out his 400 yard, 4 TD performance in 2004, then I throw out his 5 INT performance in 2005, and suddenly he was on pace for 4160 yards passing, 381 yards rushing, 19 TDs, and 22 INTs.Seriously, in his first two games of the season, he was absolutely abysmal, but after that he was pretty solid until he got hurt. Personally, I believe it's far more likely that throwing 8 INTs in 2 games was an aberration, and that the 266 yards, 1.5 TDs, and 1 INT per game he got after that was an accurate representation of his true ability. Sometimes, stuff happens. Tom Brady has thrown a 4-INT game every single season of his entire career except for 2002. Daunte Culpepper had had turnover-heavy stretches before in his career, but he was always able to provide enough data to show that it was just that- a stretch. In 2005, he just never got the chance.If Roethlisberger were coming off a season where he had 3 times as many turnovers as touchdowns prior to getting injured and then been rushed back he probably would've been thrown under the bus as well. But he was coming off a Superbowl season with a 100 QB rating.

I thought your argument was about talent, not how fantasy football scoring gives a less talented quarterback more value in such a game..

I'm generally using fantasy points as a statistic to describe production. As the saying goes, Production = Talent + Opportunity, so unless you'd like to argue that Culpepper has had so much more opportunity than anyone else (an arguement I'd be more than happy to take up), then production should give us a reasonable idea of what kind of talent he has. I mean, generally speaking, if you over the course of your career average a 64.2% Comp%, 7.7 yards per attempt, a 1.54:1 TD:INT ratio, 250 yards per game passing, another 30 yards per game rushing, and 1.96 TDs per game, then you're a very talented QB. That is elite production. I mean, Peyton Manning, the poster boy for elite QB talent in the NFL right now, is behind Culpepper in Comp%, YPA, Yards per game, and just baaaaaarely ahead of Culpepper in TDs per game (2.00 compared to 1.96). The only place where Peyton clearly edges Culpepper is in turnovers- every other stat is either a virtual tie (TDs, YPA, Comp%) or a clear edge to C'Pep (yards per game)- and this is including C'Pep's last two seasons. I know I'm talking about production, but you do not produce on that scale, to that extreme, for that length of time, unless you are a supremely talented individual. It simply does not happen. Add to that all of the awards and accolades he won in college, and the fact that he was drafted by the Yankees and considered professional baseball, and the fact that he produced without Randy Moss in Minnesota, and I think it's ludicrous to suggest that Culpepper was ever anything except one of the most talented QBs in the entire NFL. Did his knee injury rob him of that talent? It's possible, but personally, for my 3rd/4th QB, I'd rather roll the dice on a proven talent like Culpepper than a career nobody like Damon Huard or a longshot like Kevin Kolb.This isn't to say that Culpepper doesn't have his weaknesses- he's something of a turnover machine- but no QB is perfect. Brett Favre is something of a turnover machine, as well. So was Peyton Manning until a couple of years ago.

 

[Balco]

Very reasonable signing for the Dolphins, as they get an unbelievabley underrated qb in Green. Check out the receivers he has had to work with in KC< so it is not a big deal he gets Miami's wideouts. He is a good decision maker, with a quick release. I think he is really going to surprise. Not as a fantasy qb, but as an NFL qb.

Least accurate comment in this thread, even among all the absurd speculation.Green's well-known (appartently not with general NFL fans, though) for how long he holds onto the ball.

You might have to explain this one to me, but try to write in words I can understand. What does holding on to the ball long have to do with a quick release?

 

[Our Gang]

Very reasonable signing for the Dolphins, as they get an unbelievabley underrated qb in Green. Check out the receivers he has had to work with in KC< so it is not a big deal he gets Miami's wideouts. He is a good decision maker, with a quick release. I think he is really going to surprise. Not as a fantasy qb, but as an NFL qb.

Least accurate comment in this thread, even among all the absurd speculation.

Green's well-known (appartently not with general NFL fans, though) for how long he holds onto the ball.

Well known amongst who? Aparently not NFL Scouts--

You stand corrected:

Comment:

Green is smart, experienced and tough. He is an excellent game manager who generally makes good decisions with the ball. He is instinctive and fairly athletic. He is a veteran of the Chiefs' system and doesn't get rattled easily under pressure. He has outstanding leadership qualities and intangibles. He has above-average arm strength and elite accuracy on short and intermediate throws. He has good mechanics, a quick release and likes to pat the ball before he delivers. He shows good timing and rhythm, and he allows his receivers to catch and get upfield quickly. He moves moderately well within the pocket and can throw on the move. He has the discipline and guts to hang in and take a shot while throwing. But Green lacks ideal arm strength and athleticism. He tends to open his hips and throw off his back foot, diminishing his arm strength. He can't consistently squeeze the ball into tight spots and is adequate at best on deep vertical routes. He tends to locate and lock on in his progressions. He is a limited scrambler who takes some sacks other wouldn't.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

I thought your argument was about talent, not how fantasy football scoring gives a less talented quarterback more value in such a game..

I'm generally using fantasy points as a statistic to describe production. As the saying goes, Production = Talent + Opportunity, so unless you'd like to argue that Culpepper has had so much more opportunity than anyone else (an arguement I'd be more than happy to take up), then production should give us a reasonable idea of what kind of talent he has. I mean, generally speaking, if you over the course of your career average a 64.2% Comp%, 7.7 yards per attempt, a 1.54:1 TD:INT ratio, 250 yards per game passing, another 30 yards per game rushing, and 1.96 TDs per game, then you're a very talented QB. That is elite production. I mean, Peyton Manning, the poster boy for elite QB talent in the NFL right now, is behind Culpepper in Comp%, YPA, Yards per game, and just baaaaaarely ahead of Culpepper in TDs per game (2.00 compared to 1.96). The only place where Peyton clearly edges Culpepper is in turnovers- every other stat is either a virtual tie (TDs, YPA, Comp%) or a clear edge to C'Pep (yards per game)- and this is including C'Pep's last two seasons. I know I'm talking about production, but you do not produce on that scale, to that extreme, for that length of time, unless you are a supremely talented individual. It simply does not happen. Add to that all of the awards and accolades he won in college, and the fact that he was drafted by the Yankees and considered professional baseball, and the fact that he produced without Randy Moss in Minnesota, and I think it's ludicrous to suggest that Culpepper was ever anything except one of the most talented QBs in the entire NFL. Did his knee injury rob him of that talent? It's possible, but personally, for my 3rd/4th QB, I'd rather roll the dice on a proven talent like Culpepper than a career nobody like Damon Huard or a longshot like Kevin Kolb.This isn't to say that Culpepper doesn't have his weaknesses- he's something of a turnover machine- but no QB is perfect. Brett Favre is something of a turnover machine, as well. So was Peyton Manning until a couple of years ago.

I will certainly take you up on that.Moss was drafted by the Vikes in 1998, and left the team after the 2004 season. In that span, the following guys saw starts or games with significant time:

Brad Johnson

Jeff George

Randal Cunningham (35 years old)

Todd Bouman

Gus Frerotte

In those games (34 game sample), they averaged the following numbers per game:

250 yards passing, 2.26 pass TDs, 0.9 ints

Pro-rated over a 16 game season that gives us:

4000 yards passing, 36.16 pass TDs, 14.4 ints

Basically, that's QB1 or QB2 most years. Now, your whole point is that a guy absolutely cannot put up numbers of that caliber unless you are a "supremely talented individual". Now, unless it is in your will to argue that Brad Johnson, a 38 year old Jeff George, a 35 year old Randall Cunninghame, Todd Bouman, and Gus Frerotte are "supremely talented individuals" then I would say that is not the case.

Everyone put up blistering numbers in that offense. Journeyman QBs? Check. Career backups? Check. Over the hill vets? Got that too.

As such, everything in italics above means basically nothing to me, because everyone that got plugged into that team did the same dang thing. Daunte just happened to be there the longest because he was the only one that they actually invested in originally but really they could've gone with just about any QB in the league and hardly missed a beat.

 

[SSOG]

I thought your argument was about talent, not how fantasy football scoring gives a less talented quarterback more value in such a game..

I'm generally using fantasy points as a statistic to describe production. As the saying goes, Production = Talent + Opportunity, so unless you'd like to argue that Culpepper has had so much more opportunity than anyone else (an arguement I'd be more than happy to take up), then production should give us a reasonable idea of what kind of talent he has. I mean, generally speaking, if you over the course of your career average a 64.2% Comp%, 7.7 yards per attempt, a 1.54:1 TD:INT ratio, 250 yards per game passing, another 30 yards per game rushing, and 1.96 TDs per game, then you're a very talented QB. That is elite production. I mean, Peyton Manning, the poster boy for elite QB talent in the NFL right now, is behind Culpepper in Comp%, YPA, Yards per game, and just baaaaaarely ahead of Culpepper in TDs per game (2.00 compared to 1.96). The only place where Peyton clearly edges Culpepper is in turnovers- every other stat is either a virtual tie (TDs, YPA, Comp%) or a clear edge to C'Pep (yards per game)- and this is including C'Pep's last two seasons. I know I'm talking about production, but you do not produce on that scale, to that extreme, for that length of time, unless you are a supremely talented individual. It simply does not happen. Add to that all of the awards and accolades he won in college, and the fact that he was drafted by the Yankees and considered professional baseball, and the fact that he produced without Randy Moss in Minnesota, and I think it's ludicrous to suggest that Culpepper was ever anything except one of the most talented QBs in the entire NFL. Did his knee injury rob him of that talent? It's possible, but personally, for my 3rd/4th QB, I'd rather roll the dice on a proven talent like Culpepper than a career nobody like Damon Huard or a longshot like Kevin Kolb.This isn't to say that Culpepper doesn't have his weaknesses- he's something of a turnover machine- but no QB is perfect. Brett Favre is something of a turnover machine, as well. So was Peyton Manning until a couple of years ago.

I will certainly take you up on that.Moss was drafted by the Vikes in 1998, and left the team after the 2004 season. In that span, the following guys saw starts or games with significant time:

Brad Johnson

Jeff George

Randal Cunningham (35 years old)

Todd Bouman

Gus Frerotte

In those games (34 game sample), they averaged the following numbers per game:

250 yards passing, 2.26 pass TDs, 0.9 ints

Pro-rated over a 16 game season that gives us:

4000 yards passing, 36.16 pass TDs, 14.4 ints

Basically, that's QB1 or QB2 most years. Now, your whole point is that a guy absolutely cannot put up numbers of that caliber unless you are a "supremely talented individual". Now, unless it is in your will to argue that Brad Johnson, a 38 year old Jeff George, a 35 year old Randall Cunninghame, Todd Bouman, and Gus Frerotte are "supremely talented individuals" then I would say that is not the case.

Everyone put up blistering numbers in that offense. Journeyman QBs? Check. Career backups? Check. Over the hill vets? Got that too.

As such, everything in italics above means basically nothing to me, because everyone that got plugged into that team did the same dang thing. Daunte just happened to be there the longest because he was the only one that they actually invested in originally but really they could've gone with just about any QB in the league and hardly missed a beat.

35 year old Randall Cunningham was a supremely talented QB. Not HoF quality, but definitely HoVG quality. His age really has nothing to do with it. 35 is still within a QB's prime- look at Marino, Elway, Favre, Gannon, Steve Young, Joe Montana, Warren Moon, etc. Very good QBs, guys like Randall Cunningham, are still great at 35- and Randall Cunningham was a great QB. Besides, as I've already pointed out, Cunningham's numbers in that offense really weren't out of line with the rest of his career, anyway.As for the rest of them... Frerotte had three good games and, outside of the TD number (which was inflated by a 4-TD game), none of the numbers were out of line with his career averages. Brad Johnson played in 3 games and put up 237, 2 TDs, 1.67 INTs per game (his career average was about 230 yards passing, 1.3 TDs, and .9 INTs per game). The only number that stands out as out of line with his career averages again is the passing TD number- and again, he had a 4-TD game in his three games with Moss, and apparently we're allowed to throw those out.

Jeff George. 216 yards per game with the Vikes, about 216 yards per game elsewhere. About .9 INTs per game with the vikes, about .9 INTs per game elsewhere. About 1.9 TDs with the Vikes, 1.2 TDs elsewhere.

Todd Bouman. He's a hard guy to compare, simply because he didn't put up ANY stats elsewhere, but he only played in 3 games for the Vikes.

Still, the consistant theme here tends to be the QBs put up yardage numbers very much in line with everything else they did during the rest of their careers, and INT numbers very much in line with everything they did during the rest of the careers... and TD numbers that were 50-100% higher than anything else they ever did during their careers. So if you want to say that Culpepper's TD numbers were inflated by the system that he played in, then I'm all ears. Once again, though, Culpepper could have had half the TDs and he still would have been a stud. *AND*, Culpepper did something that none of those others ever did- he produced without Randy Moss. In fact, the numbers that Culpepper produced WITHOUT Moss were as good as the numbers those guys produced WITH Moss (if you throw out Culpepper's 4-TD game, then you have to throw out Johnson's and Frerotte's and everyone else's, so Culpepper still comes out on top).

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Cleo Lemon > Trent Green.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

35 year old Randall Cunningham was a supremely talented QB. Not HoF quality, but definitely HoVG quality. His age really has nothing to do with it. 35 is still within a QB's prime- look at Marino, Elway, Favre, Gannon, Steve Young, Joe Montana, Warren Moon, etc. Very good QBs, guys like Randall Cunningham, are still great at 35- and Randall Cunningham was a great QB. Besides, as I've already pointed out, Cunningham's numbers in that offense really weren't out of line with the rest of his career, anyway.

Well, your definition of "in-line" is certainly interesting.That year Cunningham set career bests in touchdowns, fewest INTs in seasons where he started at least 10 games, QB rating, completion percentage, yards per attempt, and 2nd in passing yards. The only year he threw for more yards was in 1988 when he threw for 3808 yards on 560 pass attempts. In the '98 season he threw for 3704 yards in only 425 pass attempts. Not to mention the 10 extra touchdowns on those 135 fewer pass attempts. His yards per attempt were a full yard better than his career best, and almost two better than his career average. I don't think I have to tell you how massive a difference that is.

Prior to that year, his career best QB rating was 91. It was the only time he broke the 90 barrier. That's career best. In '98, it was 106. The last time he had thrown for 20 TDs was 8 years prior, in 1990. His last two full seasons with another team were 2772yds, 19td, 11in, and 3229yds with 16td, 13int.

Bottom line

career averages: 2802yds, 18 pass TDs, 13 int, 6.8 y/a

With Moss: 3704yds, 34 pass TDs, 10 int, 8.7 y/a

Hardly "in line". Once again, that's Peyton Manning to JP Losman.

As for the rest of them... Frerotte had three good games and, outside of the TD number (which was inflated by a 4-TD game), none of the numbers were out of line with his career averages. Brad Johnson played in 3 games and put up 237, 2 TDs, 1.67 INTs per game (his career average was about 230 yards passing, 1.3 TDs, and .9 INTs per game). The only number that stands out as out of line with his career averages again is the passing TD number- and again, he had a 4-TD game in his three games with Moss, and apparently we're allowed to throw those out.

Jeff George. 216 yards per game with the Vikes, about 216 yards per game elsewhere. About .9 INTs per game with the vikes, about .9 INTs per game elsewhere. About 1.9 TDs with the Vikes, 1.2 TDs elsewhere.

Todd Bouman. He's a hard guy to compare, simply because he didn't put up ANY stats elsewhere, but he only played in 3 games for the Vikes.

Still, the consistant theme here tends to be the QBs put up yardage numbers very much in line with everything else they did during the rest of their careers, and INT numbers very much in line with everything they did during the rest of the careers... and TD numbers that were 50-100% higher than anything else they ever did during their careers. So if you want to say that Culpepper's TD numbers were inflated by the system that he played in, then I'm all ears. Once again, though, Culpepper could have had half the TDs and he still would have been a stud.

Well, I can tell you straight up that your numbers are wrong.With Jeff George, you took his yards and divided it by games played. That means you counted the game where he came in for one play against his averages. His actual passing yards per game with Moss in games he actually played significant time in was a bit over 260.

Likewise, when counting up Brad Johnson's (didn't check the other guys so dunno if you did it with them as well) career averages you just took his total stats for his career and divided it by his career starts. That means that if he came in on the second play of the game and threw for 300 yards and a couple touchdowns it would be added to his total stats but not to the number being divided into that, thus vastly inflating his stats. Obviously that exact scenario didn't happen often, but given that he played in 33 games in which he did not start I'm sure those numbers added up quite a bit.

Either way, the bottom line is even without Culpepper in there the Minnesota Vikings QB position produced absolute stud numbers without absolute stud QBs.

In fact, the numbers that Culpepper produced WITHOUT Moss were as good as the numbers those guys produced WITH Moss (if you throw out Culpepper's 4-TD game, then you have to throw out Johnson's and Frerotte's and everyone else's, so Culpepper still comes out on top).

Culpepper without Moss prorated out to 16 games: 3989yds, 22 pass tds, 22int

The other guys with Moss prorated to 16: 4000 yards passing, 36 pass TDs, 14int

Call me crazy, but I'd take option #2.

Also, you're vastly misusing statistics (the practice, not the numbers). I was comparing the sample of the Minnesota QBs as a whole (which comprised of 34 games), not each one individually.

 

[Spartans Rule]

Trent Green has been one of the most productive quarterbacks in the league for a while, and that's without the benefit of any insanely talented wideouts.

But he had the benefit of two insanely talented linemen, an insanely talented tight end, some very good running backs and some good offensive coaching.I really think Green's situation in KC was much better than people give it credit for. When you have all day to throw, Gonzalez and Priest to throw to and a defense that has to pay mucho attention to the run, you don't need good WRs to put up monster passing stats. Even in his prime I wouldn't be excited about Green in Miami, and he may be on the decline. If that line doesn't hold up, Trent won't either.

 

[SSOG]

35 year old Randall Cunningham was a supremely talented QB. Not HoF quality, but definitely HoVG quality. His age really has nothing to do with it. 35 is still within a QB's prime- look at Marino, Elway, Favre, Gannon, Steve Young, Joe Montana, Warren Moon, etc. Very good QBs, guys like Randall Cunningham, are still great at 35- and Randall Cunningham was a great QB. Besides, as I've already pointed out, Cunningham's numbers in that offense really weren't out of line with the rest of his career, anyway.

Well, your definition of "in-line" is certainly interesting.That year Cunningham set career bests in touchdowns, fewest INTs in seasons where he started at least 10 games, QB rating, completion percentage, yards per attempt, and 2nd in passing yards. The only year he threw for more yards was in 1988 when he threw for 3808 yards on 560 pass attempts. In the '98 season he threw for 3704 yards in only 425 pass attempts. Not to mention the 10 extra touchdowns on those 135 fewer pass attempts. His yards per attempt were a full yard better than his career best, and almost two better than his career average. I don't think I have to tell you how massive a difference that is.

Prior to that year, his career best QB rating was 91. It was the only time he broke the 90 barrier. That's career best. In '98, it was 106. The last time he had thrown for 20 TDs was 8 years prior, in 1990. His last two full seasons with another team were 2772yds, 19td, 11in, and 3229yds with 16td, 13int.

Bottom line

career averages: 2802yds, 18 pass TDs, 13 int, 6.8 y/a

With Moss: 3704yds, 34 pass TDs, 10 int, 8.7 y/a

Hardly "in line". Once again, that's Peyton Manning to JP Losman.

Cunningham's last healthy season before Moss: 3466, 30, 13.Cunningham's season with Moss: 3704, 34, 10.

That seems pretty "in-line" to me, especially considering how mobile QBs have historically gotten a lot better passing when their mobility leaves them.

Well, I can tell you straight up that your numbers are wrong.

With Jeff George, you took his yards and divided it by games played. That means you counted the game where he came in for one play against his averages. His actual passing yards per game with Moss in games he actually played significant time in was a bit over 260.

I see what I did with George- PFR said he appeared in 14 games, so I checked the game logs and saw that he only had one pass in a game, so I divided by 13, when in reality he only played significant time in 11.

Likewise, when counting up Brad Johnson's (didn't check the other guys so dunno if you did it with them as well) career averages you just took his total stats for his career and divided it by his career starts. That means that if he came in on the second play of the game and threw for 300 yards and a couple touchdowns it would be added to his total stats but not to the number being divided into that, thus vastly inflating his stats. Obviously that exact scenario didn't happen often, but given that he played in 33 games in which he did not start I'm sure those numbers added up quite a bit.

What I did for Brad Johnson is I counted all of his career games where he split time with another QB for whatever reason, discarded those games from his career totals, and then divided the remaining yards by the remaining games. It was just a quick check, but it should be reasonably close.

Either way, the bottom line is even without Culpepper in there the Minnesota Vikings QB position produced absolute stud numbers without absolute stud QBs.

Denver and KC's RBs have produced absolute stud numbers without absolute studs, too. Does this mean that Priest Holmes and Terrell Davis weren't talented, too?

Culpepper without Moss prorated out to 16 games: 3989yds, 22 pass tds, 22int

The other guys with Moss prorated to 16: 4000 yards passing, 36 pass TDs, 14int

Call me crazy, but I'd take option #2.

Also, you're vastly misusing statistics (the practice, not the numbers). I was comparing the sample of the Minnesota QBs as a whole (which comprised of 34 games), not each one individually.

Again, Moss had a definite and noticeable impact on TD numbers, which I acknowledge, admit, and agree to 100%. Outside of that, Culpepper had comparable yards without Moss as the other guys had with Moss. The INTs were higher, but so were the rushing totals. Outside of the TD numbers, Culpepper was as good without Moss as the other guys were with him... and I've said many times, Culpepper could have had half the TDs and he'd still be a stud.

 

[Otis]

Shark Pool Madness

 

[The Jacket]

Well known amongst who? Aparently not NFL Scouts--

You stand corrected:

Comment:

Green is smart, experienced and tough. He is an excellent game manager who generally makes good decisions with the ball. He is instinctive and fairly athletic. He is a veteran of the Chiefs' system and doesn't get rattled easily under pressure. He has outstanding leadership qualities and intangibles. He has above-average arm strength and elite accuracy on short and intermediate throws. He has good mechanics, a quick release and likes to pat the ball before he delivers. He shows good timing and rhythm, and he allows his receivers to catch and get upfield quickly. He moves moderately well within the pocket and can throw on the move. He has the discipline and guts to hang in and take a shot while throwing. But Green lacks ideal arm strength and athleticism. He tends to open his hips and throw off his back foot, diminishing his arm strength. He can't consistently squeeze the ball into tight spots and is adequate at best on deep vertical routes. He tends to locate and lock on in his progressions. He is a limited scrambler who takes some sacks other wouldn't.

You put stock into some dopey ESPN "ScoutsINC" report, probably from 2 years ago, that is probably based on seeing him take 100 snaps?

I'll take my opinion of seeing every single snap he took as a Kansas City Chief over that garbage.

Instinctive? "Fairly" athletic? "Outstanding" leadership? Above-average arm strength?



That's just f'ing brutal comedy.

 

[Liquid Tension]

Now it is fair to say that for an entire year Culpepper hasn't played well without Moss, but the same can be said for Moss.

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, the same can't be said for Moss. Moss has excelled no matter what QB was throwing him the ball (with the exception of three starts with Spergeon Wynn) up until his injury in his first year with the Raiders. Here's a list of the QBs he's played with, along with his PPG (1 pt 10 yards rec, 6 points TDs), and the number of games with that QB:Brad Johnson, 4 games, 12.8 ppgRandal Cunningham, 18 games, 14.2 ppgJeff George, 10 games, 13.4 ppgDaunte Culpepper, 66 games, 13.3 ppgTodd Bouman, 3 games, 22.9 ppgSpergeon Wynn, 3 games, 1.8 ppgGus Frerotte, 3 games, 21.3 ppgKerry Collins, first four games of 2005, 14.7 ppg (9.3 ppg for all of 2005)So, with one exception, Moss has put up great numbers with every QB he played with prior to 2006, and in a few cased, greatly eleveated his game when the starter went down. Culpepper has not shown that he can be a dominant QB without Moss, with the exception of one game against Green Bay who had one of the worst, if not the worst defenses in the league in 2004.

Excelled PRIOR to 2006? The same can be said for Culpepper then? As SSOG showed Culpy was still a top 3 QB for the games WITHOUT Moss.The Dolphins did a good job in the renegotiation of Trent's contract. If the OL can be reasonable in protection Green should be able to spread the ball around and make good decisions. Mt feeling is that he will get hurt though.I would rather have rolled the dice with Culpepper, but maybe the Dolphins sneak into the playoffs. Personally, I do not think the Jets are all that talented. Injuries play a HUGE role in how teams perform and the Jets were one of the 3 healthiest teams in football. If they have average injuries they will take a step back.