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Trumps youth camps (1 Viewer)

Sometime soon, one of these children is going to become very ill.  Or die. Do you think there is any kind of registry that would hold someone accountable or would that corpse conveniently disappear?  They aren't letting media inside to see these facilities. Everything is shrouded in lies and secrets. If Trump was smart, he will end this before something horrific happens. These kids aren't all 18 months old. Some can and will talk after this nightmare ends. 

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
So Noonan imagine if your greatgrandfather or whoever sailed in a sailboat from Sicily in 1892 or wherever/whenever your people are from and instead of landing at Ellis Island landed at Atlantic City and presented himself and said 'my homeland is rife with corruption, the place is lousy with disease, the mafia will kill me because I'm too honest, and I brought my wife and child and sold everything and left everyone and everything behind' and then the US government arrested him and his wife, told them they were taking the child for a bath, then didn't return the child but instead put him in a camp and then didn't tell your great-grandfather where he was. Where the _ would your family be right now?
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That isn't what is happening.   Opie already illustrated this is false

 
Opie said:
No...it's that a lot of people here don't care to understand.  They are under the impression that when a happy family dances up to the desk to buy a ticket to take the "America Ride", armed goons rush up, knock mommy to the ground, then grab the kids and rush them into a concentration camp.

In reality, "parents" attempting to gain asylum in an approved port of entry have commited no crime therefore, they are not detained and kids are not removed.

HOWEVER...A "parent" (coyote...whatever) who is found to be ILLEGALLY trying to gain entry into the country have broken a law...therefore, they are processed just like anyone else caught breaking a law.  IF they happen to have a child in tow, the child is taken into protective custody while the offending "parent" (coyote...whatever) is being processed.

"D.H.S. does have a responsibility to protect minors and, in that case as well, we will only separate the family if we cannot determine there is a familial relationship, if the child may be at risk with the parent or legal guardian, or if the parent or legal guardian is referred for prosecution."

"D.H.S. is not separating families legitimately seeking asylum at ports of entry. If an adult enters at a port of entry and claims asylum, they will not face prosecution for illegal entry. They have not committed a crime by coming to the port of entry".

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/18/us/politics/dhs-kirstjen-nielsen-families-separated-border-transcript.html
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I know ACLU is biased here because they are presenting a case against the US, but they claim that this is innaccurate

Is the administration separating asylum-seeking families who enter at ports of entry?

Yes, despite claims to the contrary. On June 17, DHS Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen took to Twitter to defend family separation, saying, “For those seeking asylum at ports of entry, we have continued the policy from previous administrations and will only separate if the child is in danger, there is no custodial relationship between 'family' members, or if the adult has broken a law.”

In case Secretary Nielsen forgot, she’s currently a defendant in our class action lawsuit, where we represent families who entered at ports of entry to seek asylum and had their children taken away.
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https://www.aclu.org/blog/immigrants-rights/immigrants-rights-and-detention/fact-checking-family-separation

 
Ilov80s said:
They are being sued for forcing prisoners to work in the camps for $1 a day. Good business model, really cuts on costs. 
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At our particular facility there was a question about the amount of force being used, whether it was being used punitively, and also whether sufficient communication was being allowed to families and attorneys.  There was an expression of a willingness to reform and the issues subsided, or at least the intensity of the issues subsided.  Once it was no longer a public safety concern I was no longer involved.  As I also recall that facility was lobbying for permission to house overflow from area jails.  It seems to my recollection that there are standards for housing jail inmates that this facility did not meet and they were seeking a waiver.  the issue was the quality of their security.  This was all some time ago so my recollection is maybe not what it should be.

 
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No use trying to reason with cult members.  Their mind is already in a locked position.  This is why there is an ignore button!  These folks require cult deprogramming before there is any chance to reach them.  How sad to see in action.  

 
timschochet said:
There’s too many of them Dedfin. It’s the same dilemma I’ve had since Trump first appeared: either I believe that millions of my fellow Americans are awful people, or I find other explanations. I have constantly chosen the latter, even when it’s flimsy, even when I know I’m probably lying to myself. I’ll probably continue to do so because ai just don’t want to face the former. 
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Keeping the blinders on only delays the inevitable of the full truth sinking in.

Grace Under Pressure said:
I am interested in better understanding why it is being done. It seems that's what a lot of people here are trying to understand.
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I'm not interested in understanding at all why anyone would think this "policy" is good in any way. It's simply unjustifiable. Period. It needs to be eliminated and stopped immediately. It is wrong on every human level possible. To even attempt to justify it in any manner, for whatever reason, in any way is disgusting. Anybody doing this should be ashamed of themselves.

 
My kid just went to youth camp for one night.  But we were able to find her and bring her home afterwards.

 
Ruffrodys05 said:
I'm not interested in understanding at all why anyone would think this "policy" is good in any way. It's simply unjustifiable. Period. It needs to be eliminated and stopped immediately. It is wrong on every human level possible. To even attempt to justify it in any manner, for whatever reason, in any way is disgusting. Anybody doing this should be ashamed of themselves.
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I'd disagree with this.  I think that attempting to paint folks as evil or disgusting for attempting a policy like this is counterproductive.

I can see why some people would look at this and think that a zero tolerance approach to immigration is the way to go.  Of course people will get hurt in the process - it happens with almost all zero tolerance plans.  The goal of these plans is to deter folks from doing wrong things because they know in advance that if they do, there will be no clemency, no gray areas.

So folks who support these kinds of policies will suggest that they're similar to other policies of removing children in other circumstances, and other zero tolerance policies, and that perhaps this will be a deterrent for people to not do something like illegally immigrate to the country.

We should be able to rationally discuss why this is a bad idea, if it's a bad idea, and not just reduce the asking of the question to Evil/shame/disgust.  If it's wrong, we should be able to clearly explain why it's wrong and understand that folks come down on the other sides of a lot of issues and that doesn't necessarily make them evil.

I know it's kids, i know they're being stripped form parents.  But there are injustices all across our country, and the world, that are as grave or more.  Some folks may feel the same way about the death penalty, where we know we've executed completely innocent people, or a judicial system that is unfair to minorities or the poor that favors the rich.  The numbers affected in those situations far outstrip those in this situation, yet many of us who oppose this immigration policy may support the death penalty, or not really get worked up about the injustices endemic in our judicial system and jails.

This is a serious issue, and has serious consequences, and I'm in no way attempting to minimize the harm being done.  Only suggesting we should be able to rationally discuss with folks why this is a terrible idea, why the means don't justify the ends, and why the consequences of these actions far outstrip the benefits.  And how effective are zero tolerance approaches in general?

I'm with everyone who is outraged about this issue, but I don't support demonizing folks who genuinely want to understand the problems with the policy and discuss things from a pragmatic point of view.

 
eurotrashman said:
 To a part of Trump's base, family separation at the border is not a humanitarian crisis, but the fulfillment of a campaign pledge. Many understood, more than some ever wanted to, that inflicting pain on those deemed outsiders was central to the Trump 2016 promise.

Congratulations to all of those here who are part of this group.  You must feel proud.
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As I mentioned before, outsiders has far more to do with color of skin than immigration status. 

See: Puerto Rico.

See: Harrassment of people who look to be of Latino/Hispanic heritage in public.

Couple that with a desire for authoritarian rule at the expense of democracy, strong man and overreaching govt eliminating civic freedoms at the expense of liberty and the rights of the individual and an alignment with ruthless regimes led by dictators with overarching fascist tendencies at the expense of our closest and most valuable allies and you have a pretty damning roadmap. 

 
apalmer said:
adonis said:
My kid just went to youth camp for one night.  But we were able to find her and bring her home afterwards.
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How did she like sleeping on the floor surrounded by chicken wire?
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She talked the most about singing, food she had, friends she got to play with.  She had a good time.

Gotta say, that seeing those pictures of kids in cages at the same time she was away at camp, was particularly disturbing for me.

 
AP Sources: Homeland Security secretary drafting order to end family separation at border; unclear if Trump will sign it.

--

So weird. That seems to be contrary to everything we've heard from the administration and Trump supporters here. 

 
adonis said:
I'd disagree with this.  I think that attempting to paint folks as evil or disgusting for attempting a policy like this is counterproductive.

I can see why some people would look at this and think that a zero tolerance approach to immigration is the way to go.  Of course people will get hurt in the process - it happens with almost all zero tolerance plans.  The goal of these plans is to deter folks from doing wrong things because they know in advance that if they do, there will be no clemency, no gray areas.

So folks who support these kinds of policies will suggest that they're similar to other policies of removing children in other circumstances, and other zero tolerance policies, and that perhaps this will be a deterrent for people to not do something like illegally immigrate to the country.

We should be able to rationally discuss why this is a bad idea, if it's a bad idea, and not just reduce the asking of the question to Evil/shame/disgust.  If it's wrong, we should be able to clearly explain why it's wrong and understand that folks come down on the other sides of a lot of issues and that doesn't necessarily make them evil.

I know it's kids, i know they're being stripped form parents.  But there are injustices all across our country, and the world, that are as grave or more.  Some folks may feel the same way about the death penalty, where we know we've executed completely innocent people, or a judicial system that is unfair to minorities or the poor that favors the rich.  The numbers affected in those situations far outstrip those in this situation, yet many of us who oppose this immigration policy may support the death penalty, or not really get worked up about the injustices endemic in our judicial system and jails.

This is a serious issue, and has serious consequences, and I'm in no way attempting to minimize the harm being done.  Only suggesting we should be able to rationally discuss with folks why this is a terrible idea, why the means don't justify the ends, and why the consequences of these actions far outstrip the benefits.  And how effective are zero tolerance approaches in general?

I'm with everyone who is outraged about this issue, but I don't support demonizing folks who genuinely want to understand the problems with the policy and discuss things from a pragmatic point of view.
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I have not seen the bolded part on this thread AT ALL!

 
I think if we start referring to them as illegal immigrants instead of immigrants discussion would improve.

 
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whoknew said:
AP Sources: Homeland Security secretary drafting order to end family separation at border; unclear if Trump will sign it.

--

So weird. That seems to be contrary to everything we've heard from the administration and Trump supporters here. 
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Kyle Griffin‏Verified account @kylegriffin1 4m4 minutes ago

Remember this is the same policy that Kirstjen Nielsen tweeted the other day wasn't happening.

 
adonis said:
I'd disagree with this.  I think that attempting to paint folks as evil or disgusting for attempting a policy like this is counterproductive.

I can see why some people would look at this and think that a zero tolerance approach to immigration is the way to go.  Of course people will get hurt in the process - it happens with almost all zero tolerance plans.  The goal of these plans is to deter folks from doing wrong things because they know in advance that if they do, there will be no clemency, no gray areas.

So folks who support these kinds of policies will suggest that they're similar to other policies of removing children in other circumstances, and other zero tolerance policies, and that perhaps this will be a deterrent for people to not do something like illegally immigrate to the country.

We should be able to rationally discuss why this is a bad idea, if it's a bad idea, and not just reduce the asking of the question to Evil/shame/disgust.  If it's wrong, we should be able to clearly explain why it's wrong and understand that folks come down on the other sides of a lot of issues and that doesn't necessarily make them evil.

I know it's kids, i know they're being stripped form parents.  But there are injustices all across our country, and the world, that are as grave or more.  Some folks may feel the same way about the death penalty, where we know we've executed completely innocent people, or a judicial system that is unfair to minorities or the poor that favors the rich.  The numbers affected in those situations far outstrip those in this situation, yet many of us who oppose this immigration policy may support the death penalty, or not really get worked up about the injustices endemic in our judicial system and jails.

This is a serious issue, and has serious consequences, and I'm in no way attempting to minimize the harm being done.  Only suggesting we should be able to rationally discuss with folks why this is a terrible idea, why the means don't justify the ends, and why the consequences of these actions far outstrip the benefits.  And how effective are zero tolerance approaches in general?

I'm with everyone who is outraged about this issue, but I don't support demonizing folks who genuinely want to understand the problems with the policy and discuss things from a pragmatic point of view.
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I agree that changes need to be made and agreed to by both parties regarding immigaration. Let's do that. Let's not separate children from families and hold them as bargaining chips (exactly what Drumpf is doing here.) Supporting doing that is disgusting. Trying to justify it through whataboutism is disgusting. 

 
Per the AP story, Nielson is going to the Whote House to meet with Trump’s team. 

If Trump signs off on this, how will he explain it to his base? He has argued, falsely,  for days that he couldn’t do this, that it was all the Democrats fault. 

 
adonis said:
I'd disagree with this.  I think that attempting to paint folks as evil or disgusting for attempting a policy like this is counterproductive...

I'm with everyone who is outraged about this issue, but I don't support demonizing folks who genuinely want to understand the problems with the policy and discuss things from a pragmatic point of view.
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I see your point. But this is not an isolated incident nor policy. Furthermore, you have people like Leowendowski "whoomp whoomping" the conditions of innocent children being harmed, with many others perfectlynok to admit this is weaponizing the fate of children to push their desired policy aims.

At best, it's echoes of a time when "vermin invaders who are breeding" was propaganda used to dehumanize an entire population, to make it easier to "exterminate the problem" (the problem = people).

Ive had enough white washing. The very group that likes to call it like it is, is by and large, supportive of and often enthusiastic about a policy designed to hurt people for policy goals (and also becuase many are flat out cruel, heartless racists that want to see these dirty brown enemies of America get what's coming).

Again, I was told to never forget. I was told to be vigilant. I was told it takes people standing up and facing ugly truths head on to have any lasting chance of preserving democracies and freedoms.

calling out the behaviors and language and actions - including those of support and enabling - is not designed to demonize.  But if the picture that is painted by an honest assessment of ones behavior is that of a demon, don't blame the messenger for their vigilance in calling it out. Dont water down the message to allow this democracy's death by a thousand cuts to continue.

We need to have the collective balls as a society to stand up to these bullies, racists, heartless individuals to at the least put a halt to this March - and ideally have them find a place in their heart where they might themselves recognize the demons they have become.

Millions in Germany had to face the reality of their choices.. choices and enabling that extended FAR beyond what we have seen so far. They had far more reason to repent andnothrrs had far more reason to never forgive.  But to a large degree we DID forgive, but only after confession. Only after their acknowledgement of having been lured by darkness and against humanity.

Even so, they recognized that being called Nazis - even if they themselves were more idle bystanders, but certainly those championing these types of policie - was a moniker they earned, and would have to earn their way out of by demonstrating contriteness and humanity.

Lets see some of those last two items and we can discuss failing down what is, unfortunately, the most accurate depiction of an ugly present reality. 

 
timschochet said:
Per the AP story, Nielson is going to the Whote House to meet with Trump’s team. 

If Trump signs off on this, how will he explain it to his base? He has argued, falsely,  for days that he couldn’t do this, that it was all the Democrats fault. 
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Something along the lines of...despite lack of cooperation from the Democrats, I am using my powers as the leader of the world, I mean, country to put an end to the separating of children and their parents. As you all know, nobody cares more about children than I do. Nobody. Now we need the Democrats to finally agree to cooperate so we don't have to put the kids through this again. Blah blah blah

 
timschochet said:
Per the AP story, Nielson is going to the Whote House to meet with Trump’s team. 

If Trump signs off on this, how will he explain it to his base? He has argued, falsely,  for days that he couldn’t do this, that it was all the Democrats fault. 
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He can't explain it, so he won't sign it, unless someone finally got through to him what a PR disaster this is for the GOP and 2018 mid-terms

 
tonydead said:
You're welcome.  Thanks for providing the perfect example of a lot of false narratives being spread around by the media.  The guy you copy-tweeted is a journalist for the Washington Post, he should be held to higher standards than that.  
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Oh the outrage

 
Koya said:
I see your point. But this is not an isolated incident nor policy. Furthermore, you have people like Leowendowski "whoomp whoomping" the conditions of innocent children being harmed, with many others perfectlynok to admit this is weaponizing the fate of children to push their desired policy aims.

At best, it's echoes of a time when "vermin invaders who are breeding" was propaganda used to dehumanize an entire population, to make it easier to "exterminate the problem" (the problem = people).

Ive had enough white washing. The very group that likes to call it like it is, is by and large, supportive of and often enthusiastic about a policy designed to hurt people for policy goals (and also becuase many are flat out cruel, heartless racists that want to see these dirty brown enemies of America get what's coming).

Again, I was told to never forget. I was told to be vigilant. I was told it takes people standing up and facing ugly truths head on to have any lasting chance of preserving democracies and freedoms.

calling out the behaviors and language and actions - including those of support and enabling - is not designed to demonize.  But if the picture that is painted by an honest assessment of ones behavior is that of a demon, don't blame the messenger for their vigilance in calling it out. Dont water down the message to allow this democracy's death by a thousand cuts to continue.

We need to have the collective balls as a society to stand up to these bullies, racists, heartless individuals to at the least put a halt to this March - and ideally have them find a place in their heart where they might themselves recognize the demons they have become.

Millions in Germany had to face the reality of their choices.. choices and enabling that extended FAR beyond what we have seen so far. They had far more reason to repent andnothrrs had far more reason to never forgive.  But to a large degree we DID forgive, but only after confession. Only after their acknowledgement of having been lured by darkness and against humanity.

Even so, they recognized that being called Nazis - even if they themselves were more idle bystanders, but certainly those championing these types of policie - was a moniker they earned, and would have to earn their way out of by demonstrating contriteness and humanity.

Lets see some of those last two items and we can discuss failing down what is, unfortunately, the most accurate depiction of an ugly present reality. 
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I understand the feeling, but when we use terms like "disgusting" or "evil" to describe folks who in large part are neither, but who genuinely don't see the issue with certain policies, we turn them off from discussion.

I'm sure there are many in this thread trolling, not interested in discussion, but it's counterproductive societally, to call people disgusting or evil.  It's likely the same for even using those phrases with the policies themselves.

If they're so wrong, why not engage folks on the substance of the issue.  I know I've been wrong before on hotbutton issues and folks could've called me ignorant, racist, or worse...and some did...but others actually engaged my ideas and showed me the problems with that line of thinking and it truly changed my mind.  

I know not everyone is reachable, but I guarantee you no one will be reached by us going to our respective corners and simply hurling insults at each other.  Change will only come when folks can pull away from the namecalling, try to engage fairly, assume the best in other folks, and try to discuss important issues.

 
timschochet said:
Per the AP story, Nielson is going to the Whote House to meet with Trump’s team. 

If Trump signs off on this, how will he explain it to his base? He has argued, falsely,  for days that he couldn’t do this, that it was all the Democrats fault. 
Click to expand...
For some strange reason, lies don't matter to Trump supporters even though they're sick of politics-as-usual in DC which is why the brought in an outsider.

 
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