Two TEs to watch (1 Viewer)

[JayMan]

Analysis wilked and I have done in regards to this.

link

If you want a top TE, you need to draft one on a team whose WRs as a sum will be less than the league average. If a team has a corps of WRs who will be better than the NFL average, that TE will not be a stud.

That's just the overwhelming trend.

In regards to Shiancoe, he is a candidate to be sure. He at least makes the cut for being on a team whose top 4 WRs will perform less than the league average. If nothing else, that is worth a later round pick given the upside there.

As for people who say that Gates would still be a stud on a team like the Colts...history and stats prove that assumption wrong.

Interesting analysis... cause of effect tough?... might it be possible that the top4 WR didn't reach 309 FF pts because the team had a stud TE?... I don't think that we can project a team stats by position, first the WRs and if there is enough left, the TE might be a good value play... I think you have to slice the pie according to the 'eaters' - for the Chargers, Gates comes 2nd after LT - and then VJax and others will get less than 309 FF pts... my 2 cents

 

[John Mamula]

Interesting analysis... cause of effect tough?... might it be possible that the top4 WR didn't reach 309 FF pts because the team had a stud TE?...

That's the question. My belief is that a lack of WRs creates stud TEs by virtue of TEs getting more touches because of a lack of WR talent/production. One thing is clear...that you can't think that you are going to have BOTH great WRs and TEs on the same team.I got into this regarding the TE of the Colts a year or so back saying that he will not be a stud, whereas many people thought there were so many Manning passing yards to go around that he would be. An interesting situation will be McMichael going to STL, who is historically in the top half of WR production. McMichael has been (historically) a very good TE in Miami, who to no surprise had very little WR production during this time. This will be a situation that will help determine if it is the TE who steals production from WRs due to the TE's talent, or if the TE is merely a last resort dumping ground for QBs who have no other choice but to throw to the TE when his WRs are terrible.

 

[Sigmund Bloom]

This will be a situation that will help determine if it is the TE who steals production from WRs due to the TE's talent, or if the TE is merely a last resort dumping ground for QBs who have no other choice but to throw to the TE when his WRs are terrible.

I think there's also a variable there of the OC's philosophy and ability to use the TE in the game plan. For the McMike example, Linehan has already worked with him in Miami back in 05, and the Rams seemed to target him immediately after the Fins cut him - so this also measures in part the willingness of the team to liberally use the TE as a passing target in the game plan. It does get murky, because that can also be based on whether the WRs are good weapons and whether the TE is skilled, but I do think the OC has a stake in this too.

 

[Bri]

Analysis wilked and I have done in regards to this.

link

If you want a top TE, you need to draft one on a team whose WRs as a sum will be less than the league average. If a team has a corps of WRs who will be better than the NFL average, that TE will not be a stud.

That's just the overwhelming trend.

There's plenty of exceptions to the rule though like Sharpe having a HOF career with 100 catch WRs on either side. You mention "Top TE" and well that couldn't be more limitting

If you wanna talk a drop down group of TEs, I don't think the WRs impact is as great for FF scoring.

TEs as a redzone weapon can quickly skew their FF value. On alot of teams they have a very strong likelihood of catching a touchdown each week. I'm not saying alot will, just they're in a very good position to do so. As you know, 10 points from 40 yards and a TD will wind up better than a good number of WRs for the week.

As for people who say that Gates would still be a stud on a team like the Colts...history and stats prove that assumption wrong.

Tomato tomaato, I think Gates is so exceptional that he would be more like Sharpe.

 

[Bri]

This will be a situation that will help determine if it is the TE who steals production from WRs due to the TE's talent, or if the TE is merely a last resort dumping ground for QBs who have no other choice but to throw to the TE when his WRs are terrible.

I think there's also a variable there of the OC's philosophy and ability to use the TE in the game plan. For the McMike example, Linehan has already worked with him in Miami back in 05, and the Rams seemed to target him immediately after the Fins cut him - so this also measures in part the willingness of the team to liberally use the TE as a passing target in the game plan. It does get murky, because that can also be based on whether the WRs are good weapons and whether the TE is skilled, but I do think the OC has a stake in this too.

Miami's O was OK or good, they weren't the Rams O. I don't think Linehan follows any trend here and instead he's just another cog added. If you wanna talk about Randy's Miami's #s well then let's bring up how he stunk in November and December under Linehan there. I wouldn't be surprised if Linehan has his own reservations about Randy because of that. My Q to you, the rookie guy, would be why on earth did they draft two TEs then sign a vet a year later? IF I were drafting McMichael I'd be worried about those youngsters.

 

[Sigmund Bloom]

This will be a situation that will help determine if it is the TE who steals production from WRs due to the TE's talent, or if the TE is merely a last resort dumping ground for QBs who have no other choice but to throw to the TE when his WRs are terrible.

I think there's also a variable there of the OC's philosophy and ability to use the TE in the game plan. For the McMike example, Linehan has already worked with him in Miami back in 05, and the Rams seemed to target him immediately after the Fins cut him - so this also measures in part the willingness of the team to liberally use the TE as a passing target in the game plan. It does get murky, because that can also be based on whether the WRs are good weapons and whether the TE is skilled, but I do think the OC has a stake in this too.

Miami's O was OK or good, they weren't the Rams O. I don't think Linehan follows any trend here and instead he's just another cog added. If you wanna talk about Randy's Miami's #s well then let's bring up how he stunk in November and December under Linehan there. I wouldn't be surprised if Linehan has his own reservations about Randy because of that. My Q to you, the rookie guy, would be why on earth did they draft two TEs then sign a vet a year later? IF I were drafting McMichael I'd be worried about those youngsters.

Dominique Byrd is a bust because of character issues (he got a DWI back in the Spring after getting arrested for assault stemming from an incident in a nightclub last year) - I don't know if he'll be on the team much longer. Joe Klopfenstein ended up being a very average talent once they got an extended close look at him. I don't think the youngsters pose any threat to McMichael.

 

[redman]

Interesting analysis... cause of effect tough?... might it be possible that the top4 WR didn't reach 309 FF pts because the team had a stud TE?...

That's the question. My belief is that a lack of WRs creates stud TEs by virtue of TEs getting more touches because of a lack of WR talent/production. One thing is clear...that you can't think that you are going to have BOTH great WRs and TEs on the same team.I got into this regarding the TE of the Colts a year or so back saying that he will not be a stud, whereas many people thought there were so many Manning passing yards to go around that he would be. An interesting situation will be McMichael going to STL, who is historically in the top half of WR production. McMichael has been (historically) a very good TE in Miami, who to no surprise had very little WR production during this time. This will be a situation that will help determine if it is the TE who steals production from WRs due to the TE's talent, or if the TE is merely a last resort dumping ground for QBs who have no other choice but to throw to the TE when his WRs are terrible.

Do you have examples of bad TE's putting up stud numbers when they are surrounded by bad WR's? I can't think of any such examples. I think the data is pretty much confirming common sense: team's play to their strengths, and if their strength in their passing game is at TE, they'll throw to the TE.

 

[John Mamula]

Analysis wilked and I have done in regards to this.

link

If you want a top TE, you need to draft one on a team whose WRs as a sum will be less than the league average. If a team has a corps of WRs who will be better than the NFL average, that TE will not be a stud.

That's just the overwhelming trend.

There's plenty of exceptions to the rule though like Sharpe having a HOF career with 100 catch WRs on either side. You mention "Top TE" and well that couldn't be more limitting

If you wanna talk a drop down group of TEs, I don't think the WRs impact is as great for FF scoring.

TEs as a redzone weapon can quickly skew their FF value. On alot of teams they have a very strong likelihood of catching a touchdown each week. I'm not saying alot will, just they're in a very good position to do so. As you know, 10 points from 40 yards and a TD will wind up better than a good number of WRs for the week.

As for people who say that Gates would still be a stud on a team like the Colts...history and stats prove that assumption wrong.

Tomato tomaato, I think Gates is so exceptional that he would be more like Sharpe.

Plenty of examples? Sharpe was the only example in our analysis.The definition of "Top TE" in the article is scoring 100+ fantasy points in a season (or in the top 10%) so it is well defined with what we were talking about.

You say that the WRs impact is not as great...but what is that based on? Your perception. Run some analysis yourself and let me know if your perception is correct or not.

This is the entire reason I do my own projections. To protect myself as much as possible from perception based on pre-conceived biases.

You may not agree with my conclusions, but you have not brought anything to the table other than your own pre-conceived notions that I doubt anyone would dissuade you of.

 

[John Mamula]

Interesting analysis... cause of effect tough?... might it be possible that the top4 WR didn't reach 309 FF pts because the team had a stud TE?...

That's the question. My belief is that a lack of WRs creates stud TEs by virtue of TEs getting more touches because of a lack of WR talent/production. One thing is clear...that you can't think that you are going to have BOTH great WRs and TEs on the same team.I got into this regarding the TE of the Colts a year or so back saying that he will not be a stud, whereas many people thought there were so many Manning passing yards to go around that he would be. An interesting situation will be McMichael going to STL, who is historically in the top half of WR production. McMichael has been (historically) a very good TE in Miami, who to no surprise had very little WR production during this time. This will be a situation that will help determine if it is the TE who steals production from WRs due to the TE's talent, or if the TE is merely a last resort dumping ground for QBs who have no other choice but to throw to the TE when his WRs are terrible.

Do you have examples of bad TE's putting up stud numbers when they are surrounded by bad WR's? I can't think of any such examples. I think the data is pretty much confirming common sense: team's play to their strengths, and if their strength in their passing game is at TE, they'll throw to the TE.

What makes a "bad" TE put up stud numbers? Isn't a TE "good" or "bad" who puts up stud numbers, by definition, a stud?

 

[-OZ-]

Although you must admit, the "Gates theory" seems misnamed. "Crumpler theory" or "Desmond Clark theory" seem more appropriate with Shiancoe.

My "Gates Theory" at TE is that big athletic natural receivers who know how to naturally block out a defender when the ball in the air and can take over games are good TEs for fantasy.

I have my "LT theory", exceptionally talented running backs with great field vision and know how to be a receiver, have a good OL and can score TDs at will are good RBs for fantasy.

 

[Bri]

Analysis wilked and I have done in regards to this.

link

If you want a top TE, you need to draft one on a team whose WRs as a sum will be less than the league average. If a team has a corps of WRs who will be better than the NFL average, that TE will not be a stud.

That's just the overwhelming trend.

There's plenty of exceptions to the rule though like Sharpe having a HOF career with 100 catch WRs on either side. You mention "Top TE" and well that couldn't be more limitting

If you wanna talk a drop down group of TEs, I don't think the WRs impact is as great for FF scoring.

TEs as a redzone weapon can quickly skew their FF value. On alot of teams they have a very strong likelihood of catching a touchdown each week. I'm not saying alot will, just they're in a very good position to do so. As you know, 10 points from 40 yards and a TD will wind up better than a good number of WRs for the week.

As for people who say that Gates would still be a stud on a team like the Colts...history and stats prove that assumption wrong.

Tomato tomaato, I think Gates is so exceptional that he would be more like Sharpe.

Plenty of examples? Sharpe was the only example in our analysis.

I added how limitting your TOP TE classification was after the fact, sorry for the confusion

The definition of "Top TE" in the article is scoring 100+ fantasy points in a season (or in the top 10%) so it is well defined with what we were talking about.

yeah limitting, not much research needed when you limit it so much

You say that the WRs impact is not as great...but what is that based on?

I think you missed this "If you wanna talk a drop down group of TEs"

 

[Bri]

Plenty of examples? Sharpe was the only example in our analysis.The definition of "Top TE" in the article is scoring 100+ fantasy points in a season (or in the top 10%) so it is well defined with what we were talking about.You say that the WRs impact is not as great...but what is that based on? Your perception. Run some analysis yourself and let me know if your perception is correct or not.This is the entire reason I do my own projections. To protect myself as much as possible from perception based on pre-conceived biases.You may not agree with my conclusions, but you have not brought anything to the table other than your own pre-conceived notions that I doubt anyone would dissuade you of.

What an inviting post, just makes me want to do some research that you didn't do in the first placeLet's see Heap had Derrick Mason who has been a good WR for a long time.Shockey had Plax and Toomer early onCooley had MossWitten had 100+ when Glenn had 1100+ yards and the year before Meshawn had about a KMarcus Pollard had Marvin HarrisonRicky Dudley had Tim BrownWesley Walls had MuhsinFrank Wycheck had MasonKeith Jackson had Freeman and probably Brooks and Sharpe oh and same with ChmuraBrent Jones had this WR named Jerry Rice, maybe you've heard of himI'm done with doing your work and certainly could go back further.In the future, do some actual research and quit barking at people pretending you did.

 

[John Mamula]

Plenty of examples? Sharpe was the only example in our analysis.The definition of "Top TE" in the article is scoring 100+ fantasy points in a season (or in the top 10%) so it is well defined with what we were talking about.You say that the WRs impact is not as great...but what is that based on? Your perception. Run some analysis yourself and let me know if your perception is correct or not.This is the entire reason I do my own projections. To protect myself as much as possible from perception based on pre-conceived biases.You may not agree with my conclusions, but you have not brought anything to the table other than your own pre-conceived notions that I doubt anyone would dissuade you of.

What an inviting post, just makes me want to do some research that you didn't do in the first placeLet's see Heap had Derrick Mason who has been a good WR for a long time.Shockey had Plax and Toomer early onCooley had MossWitten had 100+ when Glenn had 1100+ yards and the year before Meshawn had about a KMarcus Pollard had Marvin HarrisonRicky Dudley had Tim BrownWesley Walls had MuhsinFrank Wycheck had MasonKeith Jackson had Freeman and probably Brooks and Sharpe oh and same with ChmuraBrent Jones had this WR named Jerry Rice, maybe you've heard of himI'm done with doing your work and certainly could go back further.In the future, do some actual research and quit barking at people pretending you did.

Please read the article. It says WRs on a team (specifically WRs 1-4). Just because a team has one good WR does not impact TE performance one way or the other. It is the distribution to the WR corps as a whole that impacts TE performance.Stating that stud TEs had one WR who did well either:1. blatantly ignores key assumptions in the study2. is a straw man argumentThe research wilked and I did is stated clearly in that article. But you're probably right. gb the closed mindedness here.

 

[Routilla]

I'd rather have Heath Miller. He can be had as around the 10th TE off the board and that's pretty good value for where you would be drafting him.

 

[toxicbees]

I'd rather have a guy like Marcedes Lewis as my TE2.

 

[JohnnyU]

I'd rather have a guy like Marcedes Lewis as my TE2.

With the addition of Jermaine Wiggins I doubt Lewis is much help to fantasy teams in 2007, especially since Asst Coach (and TE coach) Mike Tice loves Wiggins.

 

[Bri]

But you're probably right.

 

[oceanspook]

Jeff King, Carolina and Visanthe Shiancoe, Minnesota.

I've been touting King for over a year now (just search "jeff_eaglz" and "Jeff King" and you'll find this thread here).

It looks like I'm not the only one buying in on him being the starter this year:

Jeff King

Week 1 in the books

Darin Gantt, Rock Hill (SC) Herald Online

June 1st, 2007

Three days worth of summer school practices down, more than likely eight to go. Here are a few odds and ends we've gleaned:

-- Don't be surprised if your starting TE on opening day is one Jeff King. He's plenty big enough to do the blocking required, and he's got better hands than Michael Gaines, by all apparent measures.

I like him for more than just the transposition of his two names....With Keyshawn gone, it is conceivable that the Panthers will look towards the middle of the field to move the chains. King is a very good TE with great hands. He's an athletic player who can play all 3 downs and can get open down the seam or in the red zone.

Shiancoe I like because of the "Gates theory" - when the WRs aren't good, the QB will go to the TE. Gonzalez benefits from this as well. Look for HC Childress to get Shiancoe in the fold and Tarvaris Jackson to hit the big target a few times a game. I've written about him in several areas of the Shark Pool already, and I think 40-50 catches aren't out of the question. Sirius NFL Radio's Solomon Wilcots also thinks 50 catches aren't out of the question.

Neither TE will set the world on fire, but if you want to wait in your draft to get a second TE but also get one with good upside, keep these two in mind.

I just don't see King's upside, except that he might catch a handful of TDs. He's more of a good hands big target than a guy with the profile to be a true weapon in the passing game. Carolina barely uses TE and while King could do something like 35-300-5, he doesnt have the talent to become a big part of the passing game.Shiancoe has upside in the form of opportunity and athleticism, but he's struggling, and seems like he's pressing. He hasn't looked the part of someone who deserved that contract so far in OTAs, but its VERY early. We'll be checking in with Adam Doctolero from KFAN again soon - Here's our talk with him from a few weeks ago - in which we talk about Shiancoe and his struggles thus far.

QUOTE (oceanspook @ Jun 7 2007, 09:02 PM)

I am a Jeff King fan, but that comes from years of watching him make good plays on seam routes.

Please go tell Bloom this......

he thinks King can't get open down the seam. You and I know different......

Bloom,Jeff King is a monster down the seam. It was one of the primary ways that Tech employed him. He gets good separation and makes athletic catches for big gains.

I've seen every Tech home game for the last four years (and then some), so I've better than average knowledge of this.

As far as I know, he doesn't own pitbulls either.

 

[EBF]

King? Meh. He looks pretty average to me. Carolina doesn't have a great history of utilizing the TE and he's probably no better than the 4th-5th option. I wouldn't expect more than 350-400 yards tops. He'll probably finish closer to 200-250 yards. He's a decent red zone target, but the WRs will vulture a lot of the scores (Jarrett is a beast in the red zone).

Shiancoe is a little bit more intriguing. He was a high draft pick and he has a chance to be one of the top targets for Minnesota in the passing game. He's an interesting backup with sneaky upside.

 

[Jeff Pasquino]

As someone who saw King play live and in person on several occasions as well as several games on TV, he is much more athletic and talented than Bloom's giving him credit for.

This thread sparks some interesting debate, but there's a few things I want to touch on here with this quote.by saying he is MUCH MORE talented than Bloom is giving him credit for is basically saying that Bloom is WAY OFF on his scouting of Jeff King. I know you'll agree that while scouting is an inexact science, there is no way that Bloom could be WAY OFF on a guy. Prefer a guy, be a little off, sure - but WAY OFF?

Cec,While I respect both you and Bloom for your insight and opinions, plus you both have more hours watching college football in a year put together than most people have sleeping, but it really is possible for Bloom to be incorrect. I never said WAY OFF, that's your words, not mine. I was refuting this statement:

I just don't see King's upside, except that he might catch a handful of TDs. He's more of a good hands big target than a guy with the profile to be a true weapon in the passing game. Carolina barely uses TE and while King could do something like 35-300-5, he doesnt have the talent to become a big part of the passing game.

I don't get to see as much college ball as I'd like, as you and Bloom know, so I often defer to those who do and whose opinions I like and trust. Several posters (Chaos Commish, Andy Dufresne, Construxboy, etc.) are also in this category.However, on the few teams I do track like the Hokies, I really do know the personnel - especially those who stand out from the crowd.

The Va Tech passing game was a mess for quite a while, and the WRs just weren't up to snuff many years. IIRC, there was a game vs. Miami where they didn't have any passing yards in the first half. It was awful.

Anyway, the go-to receiver was always #80, TE Jeff King. I've seen one-handed leaping catches and bulldozing runs after the catch to convert a third down. The guy is a talent, plain and simple. He was the only receiver worth watching in Blacksburg while he was there - even Clowney wasn't that good (and he's still pretty raw now).

Now as for others making mistakes....

King was a primary target for Michael Vick while at Virginia Tech, either on 3rd down or in the red zone. He had six TDs in 2005, leading all Hokie receivers in scores.

I believe you mean Marcus Vick here?

Yes, and Bryan Randall. Mixed my Vicks....

 

[Jeff Pasquino]

Only vid I can find:

Jeff King TD

 

[BusMan]

Shiancoe?! have you seen him play?! does the guy ever catch anything thrown his way? you'll soon see that the Vikes GROSSLY overpaid for him.

I've noticed that this point hasn't yet been fully addressed. Shiancoe, in severely limited duty behind one of the premier TE talents in the league in Shockey, has caught 35 out of 54 targets in his career (63.6%), including 23 out of 36 from Eli Manning (63.8%), who happens to be a career 54.1% passer.I'm not saying that Shiancoe is going to be a TE1, and I'm certainly not disagreeing with the notion that the Vikings overpaid for him, but my guess is that with the weak WR corps in Minnesota and the perceived strength of their running back duo, Visanthe is certainly a TE worth tracking in training camps and could produce nice dividends as a late round TE2 flier. He has a history of catching a high percentage of passes from an inaccurate quarterback. Tavaris Jackson is more accurate than Eli at this point in his career, and ideally he'll improve in year two. Shiancoe's numbers fly all up in the face of your "does the guy ever catch anything thrown his way?" rant. If he gets the targets, he'll get the catches, yards, and probably some TDs.

 

[Sleeper 43]

Shiancoe?! have you seen him play?! does the guy ever catch anything thrown his way? you'll soon see that the Vikes GROSSLY overpaid for him.

I've noticed that this point hasn't yet been fully addressed. Shiancoe, in severely limited duty behind one of the premier TE talents in the league in Shockey, has caught 35 out of 54 targets in his career (63.6%), including 23 out of 36 from Eli Manning (63.8%), who happens to be a career 54.1% passer.I'm not saying that Shiancoe is going to be a TE1, and I'm certainly not disagreeing with the notion that the Vikings overpaid for him, but my guess is that with the weak WR corps in Minnesota and the perceived strength of their running back duo, Visanthe is certainly a TE worth tracking in training camps and could produce nice dividends as a late round TE2 flier.

He has a history of catching a high percentage of passes from an inaccurate quarterback. Tavaris Jackson is more accurate than Eli at this point in his career, and ideally he'll improve in year two. Shiancoe's numbers fly all up in the face of your "does the guy ever catch anything thrown his way?" rant. If he gets the targets, he'll get the catches, yards, and probably some TDs.

6'4 250 4.5/40 has a chance to be Childress's LJ Smith 2.0

Last season when I watched the Giants play, he stood out at me as a guy who was raw but had the skills. He made some good catches.

I can totally see a young QB needing a safety valve TE.

I got him in a dynasty rookie/fa draft at the 4.9 after struggling between him and James Jones. I went with Shiancoe mainly because I have Shockey (injury prone) and Mercedes (concerned) as my 2.

 

[Jeff Pasquino]

FWIW, Jeff King is lining up as the starter in Carolina.

 

[Ron_Mexico]

King? Meh. He looks pretty average to me. Carolina doesn't have a great history of utilizing the TE and he's probably no better than the 4th-5th option. I wouldn't expect more than 350-400 yards tops. He'll probably finish closer to 200-250 yards. He's a decent red zone target, but the WRs will vulture a lot of the scores (Jarrett is a beast in the red zone). Shiancoe is a little bit more intriguing. He was a high draft pick and he has a chance to be one of the top targets for Minnesota in the passing game. He's an interesting backup with sneaky upside.

concur....I don't believe the loss of Keyshawn willforce DelHomme to use the TE optionmuch more than he has in past years.

 

[simey]

King? Meh. He looks pretty average to me. Carolina doesn't have a great history of utilizing the TE and he's probably no better than the 4th-5th option. I wouldn't expect more than 350-400 yards tops. He'll probably finish closer to 200-250 yards. He's a decent red zone target, but the WRs will vulture a lot of the scores (Jarrett is a beast in the red zone). Shiancoe is a little bit more intriguing. He was a high draft pick and he has a chance to be one of the top targets for Minnesota in the passing game. He's an interesting backup with sneaky upside.

concur....I don't believe the loss of Keyshawn willforce DelHomme to use the TE optionmuch more than he has in past years.

what the Panthers did in the past on offense doesn't matter. the new offensive coordinator wants to use the TE more in the passing game this year. so far in camp, King has been included in the passing game, and is said to be doing quite well.

 

[Ron_Mexico]

King? Meh. He looks pretty average to me. Carolina doesn't have a great history of utilizing the TE and he's probably no better than the 4th-5th option. I wouldn't expect more than 350-400 yards tops. He'll probably finish closer to 200-250 yards. He's a decent red zone target, but the WRs will vulture a lot of the scores (Jarrett is a beast in the red zone). Shiancoe is a little bit more intriguing. He was a high draft pick and he has a chance to be one of the top targets for Minnesota in the passing game. He's an interesting backup with sneaky upside.

concur....I don't believe the loss of Keyshawn willforce DelHomme to use the TE optionmuch more than he has in past years.

what the Panthers did in the past on offense doesn't matter. the new offensive coordinator wants to use the TE more in the passing game this year. so far in camp, King has been included in the passing game, and is said to be doing quite well.

Good point, I didn't realize the Panther's hired Jeff Davidson as their OC.thanks for the info.

 

[Jeff Pasquino]

Jeff King has locked up the starting job.

Charlotte Observer

Carolina Panthers:

Position by Position

Some players are running out of time as 1st roster cut looms

PAT YASINSKAS

ROSTER KEY POINTS

• Running back Eric Shelton might be safer than you think. The numbers work in his favor.

• Defensive ends Dave Ball and Otis Grigsby have had nice preseasons, but they could be in trouble because the team is going to commit a roster spot to third-round pick Charles Johnson.

• Center/guard Will Montgomery is good enough to play in this league, but there is a glut of bodies in the interior line. He might end up elsewhere.

• Does Carolina keep two quarterbacks or three?

After more than 50 practices from minicamp through training camp, the Carolina Panthers will get one final look at some of the 87 players on their roster when they host the New England Patriots in an exhibition tonight. By Tuesday afternoon, they have to trim the roster to 75.

On Sept. 1, they'll have to have that number down to the regular-season limit of 53. Here's a position-by-position look at how the roster could shape up:

Quarterbacks

With Jake Delhomme and David Carr set as the top two, the only real question here is what the Panthers do with Brett Basanez. A year ago, the Panthers released him and stashed him on the practice squad and went with two quarterbacks on the opening roster. But they might elect to carry three this year. The coaches and front office like Basanez. Trying to put him on the practice squad could be too risky, because Basanez could get claimed by another team.

Running Backs

DeShaun Foster, DeAngelo Williams and fullback Brad Hoover are locks. Veteran Nick Goings is probably safe because of his ability to play running back, fullback and special teams. Eric Shelton was a major disappointment in his first two seasons, but he's looked slightly better this preseason and the Panthers might give the former second-round draft pick one more shot.

Wide receivers

Steve Smith, Dwayne Jarrett, Drew Carter and Keary Colbert are set as the top four receivers, but things will get interesting after that. Rookie Ryne Robinson might not get much playing time at receiver, but he'll be on the roster because he's going to be the top return man. There likely will be one more spot for a receiver, and that will come down to Taye Biddle or Chris Horn. Biddle has shown big-play capability and Horn has the skills to be a regular on special teams.

Tight ends

This seems pretty clear cut. Jeff King appears to have earned the starting job and Michael Gaines will be used primarily as a blocker. Rookie Dante Rosario will be the third tight end and also will line up some at fullback.

Offensive line

This will be the hardest area to trim. The Panthers likely will keep nine linemen, and that means some who are good enough to play in the league will be released. Jordan Gross, Mike Wahle, Justin Hartwig, Ryan Kalil, Travelle Wharton, Geoff Hangartner and Jeremy Bridges appear to have roster spots locked up. Center/guard Will Montgomery is not a lock, even though he's a favorite of the coaching staff. Evan Mathis, a starter at guard last year, has moved to tackle and is in a battle with second-year pro Rashad Butler and veteran Kenyatta Walker for a roster spot.

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[az_prof]

Interesting thread. It seems to me there are a few conclusions one can make:

1) I can't think of any TE who produced stud numbers with TWO great WRs. One, yes. But two, No.

2) OC and offensive scheme make a difference

3) One thing that hasn't been discussed is QB play.

I worry about Schianco because of Jackson and also Kleinsasser, who is better than people give credit

I worry about King because I don't think that offense is designed for a TE.

I like Martin bec. he has a Qb who has been successful throwing to a TE (Gonzo) and a coach who has a history of running an offense that features the TE (Gates).

He also plays for a team that has one ok WR (Chambers) and not much else at WR.

 

[nygiants56]

Jeff King, Carolina and Visanthe Shiancoe, Minnesota.

I've been touting King for over a year now (just search "jeff_eaglz" and "Jeff King" and you'll find this thread here).

It looks like I'm not the only one buying in on him being the starter this year:

Jeff King

Week 1 in the books

Darin Gantt, Rock Hill (SC) Herald Online

June 1st, 2007

Three days worth of summer school practices down, more than likely eight to go. Here are a few odds and ends we've gleaned:

-- Don't be surprised if your starting TE on opening day is one Jeff King. He's plenty big enough to do the blocking required, and he's got better hands than Michael Gaines, by all apparent measures.

I like him for more than just the transposition of his two names....With Keyshawn gone, it is conceivable that the Panthers will look towards the middle of the field to move the chains. King is a very good TE with great hands. He's an athletic player who can play all 3 downs and can get open down the seam or in the red zone.

Shiancoe I like because of the "Gates theory" - when the WRs aren't good, the QB will go to the TE. Gonzalez benefits from this as well. Look for HC Childress to get Shiancoe in the fold and Tarvaris Jackson to hit the big target a few times a game. I've written about him in several areas of the Shark Pool already, and I think 40-50 catches aren't out of the question. Sirius NFL Radio's Solomon Wilcots also thinks 50 catches aren't out of the question.

Neither TE will set the world on fire, but if you want to wait in your draft to get a second TE but also get one with good upside, keep these two in mind.

Shiancoe can't catch a cold,let a lone a pass. your theory about `when the Wr's are bad the QB goes to the TE`, goes out the window when we're talking about TAVARIS JACKSON as the QB..

 

[AB in DC]

I worry about King because I don't think that offense is designed for a TE.

It's a new offense this year. I can't imagine that anyone here has seen enough of it to come to that sort of conclusion.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Visanthe Shiancoe, Minnesota. is not even the top tight end on the team. Kleinsasser is and will steal touches. And, knowing what we know about Minnesota I wouldn't touch the guy with a 90' pole.

 

[Jeff Pasquino]

Jeff King, Carolina and Visanthe Shiancoe, Minnesota.

I've been touting King for over a year now (just search "jeff_eaglz" and "Jeff King" and you'll find this thread here).

It looks like I'm not the only one buying in on him being the starter this year:

Jeff King

Week 1 in the books

Darin Gantt, Rock Hill (SC) Herald Online

June 1st, 2007

Three days worth of summer school practices down, more than likely eight to go. Here are a few odds and ends we've gleaned:-- Don't be surprised if your starting TE on opening day is one Jeff King. He's plenty big enough to do the blocking required, and he's got better hands than Michael Gaines, by all apparent measures.

I like him for more than just the transposition of his two names....With Keyshawn gone, it is conceivable that the Panthers will look towards the middle of the field to move the chains. King is a very good TE with great hands. He's an athletic player who can play all 3 downs and can get open down the seam or in the red zone.

Shiancoe I like because of the "Gates theory" - when the WRs aren't good, the QB will go to the TE. Gonzalez benefits from this as well. Look for HC Childress to get Shiancoe in the fold and Tarvaris Jackson to hit the big target a few times a game. I've written about him in several areas of the Shark Pool already, and I think 40-50 catches aren't out of the question. Sirius NFL Radio's Solomon Wilcots also thinks 50 catches aren't out of the question.

Neither TE will set the world on fire, but if you want to wait in your draft to get a second TE but also get one with good upside, keep these two in mind.

bump for a refresher....

 

[GDogg]

I'm probably going to pick up King as my bye week replacement this week. He's been consistent thus far.

Good call on this one.

 

[rvarnell]

Any opinion on how Delhomme's injury impact's King's numbers this year? Last year did Carr ever zero in on Owen Daniels or Putzier?

 

[Illegal Pants Downfield]

Delanie Walker was mentioned early on in the thread - does Vernon Davis' injury have any impact on whether we might see more of Walker?

 

[Jeff Pasquino]

Any opinion on how Delhomme's injury impact's King's numbers this year? Last year did Carr ever zero in on Owen Daniels or Putzier?

Jake D is day-to-day, but the play calling is more important - and King's becoming a primary target.

 

[rvarnell]

Thanks.

 

[Jeff Pasquino]

Delanie Walker was mentioned early on in the thread - does Vernon Davis' injury have any impact on whether we might see more of Walker?

According to Matt Maiocco, of the Santa Rosa Press Democrat, Delanie Walker will start for VD due to a partial tear of the MCL in his right knee. Waiver wire target for sure.

 

[ThePittbully]

Im still holding onto Shiancoe, with a passing game I think he can actually be an impact player. He had half a qb this week and put up 53 yards, with a good qb who knows what he could do