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U of Tennessee WR Justin Hunter (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter Matt Waldman
- Start date
Faust
MVP
Faust
MVP
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Bob Magaw
Footballguy
another point is the earlier tough love in evidence from receiver coach jefferson and SS pollard, is because by their own admission, they see a lot of potential they hope is realized, because if it is, the team could be much stronger.
So many were like you this offseason and didn't believe that Hunter wasn't getting it done. It was always blown off as coach speak. The post by Faust beneath yours about demands you guys reconsider your previous thoughts on the situation.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
I like Hunter but I see him as a longer term prospect that will require patience.
If the coaching staff gets canned there is no guarantee that the new coaching staff takes a shine to him.
If the coaching staff gets canned there is no guarantee that the new coaching staff takes a shine to him.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
so do you think he will be fine or not?are you worried or not?
does faust's post demand you reconsider your position?
i mentioned several times liking him more in dynasty...
a lot can happen... how does britt's knee hold up? will he be retained next year?
the same people that were riding him (jefferson and pollard) have said he has the potential for greatness? they haven't said that about WRs like nate washington and damian williams ahead of him on the depth chart...
not sure what your point is or what you are looking for... that his career is doomed because a coach was mean to him? if so, i don't agree, but we can have that conversation, and track it over the next year or two... If you don't think that, which would be consistent with the post I have quoted here, than i agree... but you seem conflicted and are sending mixed messages (saying you aren't worried, but taking me to task for expressing something similar)...
maybe missing so much time in camp has put him behind at the start of the season...
the season hasn't even started yet... i don't think too many here were advocating him as an immediate starter, so i'm willing to take the long view...
most people conceded he needs to get stronger (i explicitly mentioned this in context of his track background)... while that wasn't necessarily assumed to manifest as what could be a redshirt year, if he is on track later this season and next year, it won't matter in the long run...
* posts don't make demands... people do...
** reread faust's article link... its reports munchak saying the team MAY dress four... the operative word is MAY...
even if that proves to be the case, it also states titans top four WRs are britt, washington, wright and williams... it doesn't (and can't) state with certainty they will be the top four WRs all season... do we know hunter is incapable of improving during the season, and it will be impossible for him to surpass one of the WRs at some point?
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werdnoynek
Footballguy
Hunter has the talent to ring the bell and enter the arena. If you have him in redraft you're ####### insane. If you have him in dynasty, you're a ####### genius. We can analyze everything the media says until something makes sense. This kid has the talent. He could and likely will make Britt expendable next year IMO.
Special.
Special.
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az_prof
Footballguy
I have him in dynasty but I will officially be worried if he doesn't even suit up. This is reminding me of Robert Meachem who "red shirted" his rookie year in NO and look how that turned out.
Shanahanigans
Footballguy
It's like you read my mind. When I saw that he might not suit up I had nightmares about my days after drafting Meachem. I only have 19 roster spots, so if he doesn't suit up for 3-4 weeks I may have to bail. He's also starting to remind of Baldwin, a physical freak who just isn't good at football. Hopefully, he can turn things around, and this is all just overreaction to a poor rookie preseason. I still like him more than other rookies like Patton, Dobson, Bailey, Williams, etc.
az_prof
Footballguy
Maybe it is because I also struck out on Meachem. But I do hate giving up on a first round pick his first year.
Hunter was drafted (in my opinion, not fact I suppose) to push Britt. Britt's been the taller faster more athletic WR that gets every opportunity and now he can welcome Hunter and either stop dropping the ball or walk soon in free agency. He can behave in the offseason or watch Hunter from the sidelines. I loved the Hunter pick.so do you think he will be fine or not?are you worried or not?
does faust's post demand you reconsider your position?
i mentioned several times liking him more in dynasty...
a lot can happen... how does britt's knee hold up? will he be retained next year?
the same people that were riding him (jefferson and pollard) have said he has the potential for greatness? they haven't said that about WRs like nate washington and damian williams ahead of him on the depth chart...
not sure what your point is or what you are looking for... that his career is doomed because a coach was mean to him? if so, i don't agree, but we can have that conversation, and track it over the next year or two... If you don't think that, which would be consistent with the post I have quoted here, than i agree... but you seem conflicted and are sending mixed messages (saying you aren't worried, but taking me to task for expressing something similar)...
maybe missing so much time in camp has put him behind at the start of the season...
the season hasn't even started yet... i don't think too many here were advocating him as an immediate starter, so i'm willing to take the long view...
most people conceded he needs to get stronger (i explicitly mentioned this in context of his track background)... while that wasn't necessarily assumed to manifest as what could be a redshirt year, if he is on track later this season and next year, it won't matter in the long run...
* posts don't make demands... people do...
** reread faust's article link... its reports munchak saying the team MAY dress four... the operative word is MAY...
even if that proves to be the case, it also states titans top four WRs are britt, washington, wright and williams... it doesn't (and can't) state with certainty they will be the top four WRs all season... do we know hunter is incapable of improving during the season, and it will be impossible for him to surpass one of the WRs at some point?
(Britt's done better, not really the point here but he has)
Many here had high expectations for Hunter and in fact there are articles and posts which claimed he was one of the rooks that could produce right away.
The articles that came out took away my enthusiasm for Hunter.
Many people here (this thread, others) never changed and remained enthusiastic. As the summer wore on, the enthusiasm remained high and it just didn't match. Many times seeing the enthusiasm, I went searching thinking maybe I missed an article or a quote or something.
Here, you are stating he could still be great and the future is still bright. I don't disagree. I believe you quoted me saying he'd be fine. While I don't doubt Munchak's ability to get 100% effort out of a player, even if he's gone I don't imagine a new coach is going to be OK with less than full effort. I expect the young guy to "get it" some day, sure. For all I know, Hunter might get a bunch of calls for tickets to his first game and be saying ummm I might not play and that's the crow the rook has to eat. Maybe during the practices between week one and two, Hunter could be going full tilt all the time and his world is suddenly different.
This doesn't address this year's expectations. Saying he may get a chance to play as the 5th or 6th WR wasn't at all in the plans you can infer from oh so many posts here. I doubt there is even one where someone said ooh I hope he gets a chance to play in week one.
KellysHeroes
Footballguy
if they start red shirting him then I'm neverous. Tried to just blow it off all summer long but for a skill position outside of QB to get red shirted is a big red flag
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Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
So what? Just because it was said doesn't make it true. You're one of my favorite posters bob, but not really sure why people believe anything coaches say. They have an agenda - very similar to politicians.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
thanx for the feedback, alex...
but if we are supposed to ignore all coaching statements as coach speak agendizing, than that would include the negative as well as the positive...
if we ignored all the negative reports, which triggered the most recent conversation, than we wouldn't be having this conversation...
it is true i don't put a lot of stock in what belichick says...
but when fisher says he is going to get the ball in austin's hands in a variety of ways, i tend to believe that... maybe he has an agenda to justify trading up for the pick? i don't know? but i file that info away, and don't automatically discount it as meaningless coach speak...
i don't think you are advocating ignoring equally all praise or criticism?
but without context, it is unclear...
but if we are supposed to ignore all coaching statements as coach speak agendizing, than that would include the negative as well as the positive...
if we ignored all the negative reports, which triggered the most recent conversation, than we wouldn't be having this conversation...
it is true i don't put a lot of stock in what belichick says...
but when fisher says he is going to get the ball in austin's hands in a variety of ways, i tend to believe that... maybe he has an agenda to justify trading up for the pick? i don't know? but i file that info away, and don't automatically discount it as meaningless coach speak...
i don't think you are advocating ignoring equally all praise or criticism?
but without context, it is unclear...
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
lets back up for a moment...
1 - i don't know if i said i didn't believe hunter wasn't getting it done... or if i was blowing it off as coach speak...
2 - i would appreciate it if you would pay me the courtesy of not lumping me in with a nebulous, you's guys category... if you have need for a point of clarification with an individual or several people, bring it up with them separately and specifically... if it involves a larger group, no need to personalize things by funnelling multiple issues you seem to have with others onto a focal point poster...
just make a general comment to the thread (if you have a specific question or concern about something I said, that is different, than please address that to me, of course)...3 - some people thought you were being overly critical, or took you to task for, what (i take it) they took to be blurring the lines between passing along news and inserting your own narrative (prima donna?)... that wasn't me... sometimes i also make personal observations and comments, but when possible i try and use links, cites, attribution so others can judge for themselves the context and relevance of the information... maybe he was a prima donna, but it would be helpful to know if titans insiders said that, or that was you reading into it... that is the good thing about cites and links... if you have one, i have one, you have comments, i have comments, we all have biases, nobody is exempt, obviously i include myself... than the thread can do a sort of conceptual TRIANGULATION, judging for themselves between the different links, quotes, articles, etc., and the comments spurred by them, what is the best way to reconcile the various known facts and interpretations for themselves... the whole prima donna commentary was somewhat controversial, as i recall, as it came on the heels that jefferson was riding him for missing OTAs when he had hamstring injury, there were conflicting reports, with different elements of coaching staff or front office maybe not on same page on whether his absence was understood or resented... this wasn't really nailed down definitively... later, when he came back, was he being coached hard for being lazy, or was the injury lingering? if the latter, does that make him a prima donna? i have heard that he has a humble demeanor, which is kind of the exact opposite of a prima donna... is the biggest issue that he needs to be more physical? pay more attention to detail... hustle more? not everybody would use the phrase prima donna to describe these potential issues...
4 - i took pains several times to say i like him more in dynasty and redraft, that could hardly have been clearer... you took objection to a post i made about three weeks ago, reiterating specific positive comments jefferson and pollard had said, countering earlier negative reports from them or reporting of incidents surrounding them... it is common sense that when a poster makes a positive or a negative comment, there isn't an assumption that they are anything as simplemindedly as 100% positive and 0% critical, or vice verce, on a given prospect (you aren't like that, right, so extend to others the respect that they are, like you, capable of a sense of balance, perspective and proportion)...
5 - as near as i can tell, what started the immediate ruckus was a report that hunter might be a game day inactive because they may only suit up four this season... than you did the equivalent of saying, i told you you were wrong, you should have known this
... i thought at first, not the greatest form, as the season hasn't even started yet, it was phrased as a maybe that we don't know for sure will even materialize yet, we don't know if it is a temporary circumstance... but that is cool, good to get the info out there, i just think it could have been disseminated differently... the main issue you seemed to be focusing on upthread was that in your opinion he had a wrong/bad attitude or temperment in need of adjusting... i don't remember anywhere in the thread, you, or anybody, stating the titans would probably suit up just four this year, and hunter was likely a game day inactive... so that is revisionist history on your part to say others were "wrong" and you are "right"... i'm not aware of any earlier news on this, so maybe even beat reporters were taken by surprise on this matter... it is bad form, to fault others, and take credit for something that wasn't known several weeks or a month ago...but enough of that...
you said elsewhere recently that, in your opinion, hunter was brought in to push britt... you could be right, but that doesn't make sense to me... i don't think they part with a 2014 3rd to move up six spots in the second, for some kind of an oblique, indirect move that might make britt play harder, but in and of itself, not have a tangible payoff...
imo, they brought hunter because they think he could be a great WR (if they wanted a good WR, they could have waited six picks and let the draft come to them, there were even great WRs like wheaton avail in third)... he was taken within a half dozen picks of hopkins and patterson at end of first, beginning of second round... there were reports (again, upthread i think), that titans had a high first round grade on him...
it was reported (this and other links can also be found upthread) that hunter didn't necessarily need britt to bust for health or off field reasons to get future playing time... he could in fact be a complement on the outside, with wright sliding to slot... but britt has been hurt a lot, and few NFL players were seemingly in trouble with the law as much as he was in past two or three years... so if hunter proves capable of assuming a bigger role once he becomes acclimated to the game (so went the rationale), at worst, he could be a complemement to britt... at best, his replacement... about the latter, even if britt manages to stay healthy, and keep his nose clean this year... do they risk a big financial investment with a lot of guaranteed money, on a player representing so much risk from several fronts (medical and intangibles)... he is very talented when healthy, but i think that is a tough call... i'm not even sure the titans know for certain what they will do (as has been pointed out, we don't even know if front office or coaching staff will survive the season), even if current regime does survive... it could depend on how good he looks, lots of factors... maybe this reflects my bias, but i have some serious questions about whether britt will be in TEN in 2014... i could also see teams more desperate at WR being more willing to take risk...
it is a bit disturbing if hunter doesn't suit up at all in 2013... how common is it for team to carry only four WRs? if everybody did it, presumably more rookie WRs wouldn't be suiting up...
i understand some people seeing parallels with meacham if he doesn't suit up... from what i have seen, hunter is more talented, so he should have a more favorable prognosis as to his long term future... before hurting his knee, some scouts were saying he resembled moss... i don't remember that level of respect for meacham at any point in his career or during the scouting process? maybe the thread can jump in on that historical comparison of their respective scouting process arcs...
to become more fantasy relevant in dynasty (never saw him as great redraft option), he needs to leap frog nate washington (thought to be gone, that isn't happening, one more year on contract after this?) and damian williams... i don't know when exactly that will happen, maybe his progress has been delayed, but i think he is more talented than them, has a brighter future than them, and it is a matter of time before he inexorably rises up the depth chart... with possible apex upside in a few years... that is my outlook and time frame... i had conviction before, a potentially temporary setback isn't going to cause me to pull the plug after a few weeks (which has been discussed in thread, not saying you said or are suggesting, let alone advocating that)...
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Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
Not sure that my comment needs clarification, but happy to offer some.
Coaches have reasons for both positive and negative commentary. Until we see on-field evidence that supports the praise or criticism, we have no way of evaluating the credibility of the information.
How often do we hear coaches rave about the potential of a low-performing, early round draft pick? How often do we similarly hear about coaches criticizing the work effort or minor errors of a promising player?
You mentioned Fisher and Tavon Austin.....I have no idea what Fisher's motivation is for discussing in-season game plans publicly. Maybe he wants defenses to disproportionately focus on Austin in the first few weeks. What incentive does Fisher have to be honest? "Hey everybody, Austin is gonna get the ball A LOT!!!" What purpose does that serve?
All I'm asking for is appropriate degrees of skepticism....when interpreting coachspeak. I tend not to take teh comments at face value. That doesn't make the coachspeak false.....all the time.....
Regarding Hunter.....fully agree with your latest post.....if Hunter doesn't see the field in 2013, and is typically inactive, that would be a bad sign. As in AJ Jenkins bad.
Kitrick Taylor
Footballguy
While I agree that it would be a bad sign if Hunter is a game day inactive all season, I don't think too much should be read into it early on in the season. Damian Williams plays special teams. As far as I know, Hunter isn't on any special teams. That matters when coaches are deciding on game day rosters.
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Pete Prisco@PriscoCBS@ChrisWesseling They love him. That spat with Pollard is something they want to get him competing
Follow
Pete Prisco@PriscoCBS@ChrisWesseling They love him. That spat with Pollard is something they want to get him competing
werdnoynek
Footballguy
Well said above Bob.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
If they only dress 4 WR it tells me they plan to be running the ball a lot.
Shanahanigans
Footballguy
Maybe I'm overreacting due to my being burned by Meachem in the past, but I bailed on Hunter after just one week. I went ahead and dropped him for Terrance Williams. It wasn't as hard for me bc I was able to snag him with the 3.01, not a 1st like many people.
My thinking is that Hunter is not going to be active for the first quarter of the season, and even when he does get active, the likelihood that he will produce anything significant with Locker throwing to him seems slim. Williams on the other hand is already operating as the Cowboy's #3, which has proved to be a productive spot in the past. Beyond that, Williams' ceiling isn't all that much lower than Hunter's. Hopefully, nobody else in my league likes Hunter, and I can pick him up closer to the offseason, preserving roster space and flexibility for the 2013 season.
My thinking is that Hunter is not going to be active for the first quarter of the season, and even when he does get active, the likelihood that he will produce anything significant with Locker throwing to him seems slim. Williams on the other hand is already operating as the Cowboy's #3, which has proved to be a productive spot in the past. Beyond that, Williams' ceiling isn't all that much lower than Hunter's. Hopefully, nobody else in my league likes Hunter, and I can pick him up closer to the offseason, preserving roster space and flexibility for the 2013 season.
fruity pebbles
Footballguy
i traded him, can't have him bleeding value every week
Mortimer Ichabod
Footballguy
I can't think of many other players who were compared to AJ Green and Randy Moss coming out. No way I give up on him this early in his career.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
Not good having him ride the pine AJ Jenkins style. Color me worried.
Mortimer Ichabod
Footballguy
AJ Jenkins showed absolutely nothing in preseason. Hunter caught two TDs in the last two preseason games.
az_prof
Footballguy
Color me worried. But it would be foolish to drop him this early in dynasty. It is true that I didn't expect anything this season. But I did expect he would play some and maybe catch 25 passes. I want to see him on the field some and improving. If he can't be the team's fourth best receiver that concerns me.
Good point about how he did show something in the preseason. That gives a some hope.
Good point about how he did show something in the preseason. That gives a some hope.
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Sabertooth
Footballguy
I already had an owner in a league drop him. 10-team 24 man rosters. I snagged him immediately as this was during our fcfs period. I am holding him for sure.
Adam Harstad
Moderator
If you don't count Trindon Holliday (return specialist), Denver only has 4 WRs on its entire 53-man roster.
Adam Harstad
Moderator
I'm in a 12 team PPR dynasty with 20-man rosters, and my WR corps has been absolutely decimated (Harvin, Crabtree, and Danario Alexander were three of my top four receivers). With such tight rosters, it's been a stretch even fielding three starting WRs every week, and I don't really know what I'm going to do to make it through bye weeks. With that said, there's no way I'm dropping Hunter to ease the load. I'd rather take a zero at the position for a week or two than cut bait on such a promising young prospect so early in his career.
Xue
Footballguy
Sidney Rice, Chris Henry. Besides, Green and Moss comparisons are pretty lazy in itself.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
What rookie WR DID do anything last weekend?
Mortimer Ichabod
Footballguy
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
Ketamine Dreams
Footballguy
King of the Jungle
Footballguy
It seems as though some people are becoming very impatient with rookies....it has been one game. We are mostly talking about dynasty value and that has not changed a bit IMO. We have been spoiled over the years with instant rookie gratification and it is just not realistic in all circumstances. I personally love hearing that the staff and players are barking at this kid because it means that they see the potential he can bring. I do not see anything in print or film that makes me change my standpoint on him. I do not think he is a guaranteed talent but as far as a rookie that can be bought dirt cheap and have huge upside his name is JUSTIN HUNTER. Get him for nothing now before he enters the lineup and shows flashes.
pghrob
Hail to the Chief
Shanahanigans
Footballguy
I would be less concerned if he was active and didn't produce, than seeing him inactive despite being 100% healthy. That's a huge red flag for me, especially when the Titans only had 4 active WRs. The fact that they don't even think Hunter is worth having to run go routes and keep the defense honest, or in case of injury, has me seriously worried about his future.
In bigger dynasty roster leagues, 22+, I think he should definitely be on a roster, but as far as my 19 player roster, I prefer Terrance Williams by a relatively large margin. Not only does Williams have upside immediately being in the Cowboys' #3 spot, but he also provides similar potential to Hunter. I am still very intrigued by Hunter, but I am starting to think he will be more like Jon Baldwin than AJ Green.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Eh, I see your point, but I'm not terribly concerned.
The Titans' top 3 WRs are pretty good and the coaching staff wants to get the season off to a good start and four of their first five games are very winnable. I can't fault them for going with the veterans over the rookie at this point.
I think you'll see him eased in more and more as the season goes on.
The Titans' top 3 WRs are pretty good and the coaching staff wants to get the season off to a good start and four of their first five games are very winnable. I can't fault them for going with the veterans over the rookie at this point.
I think you'll see him eased in more and more as the season goes on.
werdnoynek
Footballguy
I see that Damian Williams is still battling his hamstring ... could mean opportunities for Hunter down the line. At this point it's going to take another injury it seems but something to monitor.
It's crazy talk to drop Hunter in dynasty IMO. Too much talent.
It's crazy talk to drop Hunter in dynasty IMO. Too much talent.
EBF
Footballguy
Hunter was a tough one for me to peg out of college. Kind of an awkward prospect with his rail thin frame and long strides. He has the turn radius of a fire truck, but those long strides that pose a liability in terms of short area quickness and agility also make him a monster on vertical routes. I think he's one of the most dynamic receivers in this class because of his height and downfield ability. He's likely never going to be the total package because his game has some warts, but if utilized properly I think he has big potential.
I am not rushing out to buy him for reasons that I already mentioned, but I'm not jumping ship either. It's pretty common for rookie WRs to struggle and the Titans have a few capable guys already ahead of Hunter on the roster. I don't think this is an AJ Jenkins situation where the guy will be a total flop. At some point he will get on the field and make some waves. The quotes from Bernard Pollard are encouraging. Nobody knows NFL talent better than the players who face it every day. When a veteran like Pollard says stuff like this...
"I can't wait until Justin Hunter realizes that he is a star," strong safety Bernard Pollard said, via The Tennessean. "It is out of control how good that guy could be."
"When Justin realizes he can go in there and single-handedly destroy a defense, I think this team is going to be in for something," Pollard added. "And we need Justin Hunter to perform now, we can't wait. Because we are chasing that Lombardi Trophy and he's the kind of guy who could help us get it."
...I tend to think there's probably some fire behind the smoke. Pollard has seen a lot of WRs come and go over the years. He must see something in Hunter that stands out.
I am not rushing out to buy him for reasons that I already mentioned, but I'm not jumping ship either. It's pretty common for rookie WRs to struggle and the Titans have a few capable guys already ahead of Hunter on the roster. I don't think this is an AJ Jenkins situation where the guy will be a total flop. At some point he will get on the field and make some waves. The quotes from Bernard Pollard are encouraging. Nobody knows NFL talent better than the players who face it every day. When a veteran like Pollard says stuff like this...
"I can't wait until Justin Hunter realizes that he is a star," strong safety Bernard Pollard said, via The Tennessean. "It is out of control how good that guy could be."
"When Justin realizes he can go in there and single-handedly destroy a defense, I think this team is going to be in for something," Pollard added. "And we need Justin Hunter to perform now, we can't wait. Because we are chasing that Lombardi Trophy and he's the kind of guy who could help us get it."
...I tend to think there's probably some fire behind the smoke. Pollard has seen a lot of WRs come and go over the years. He must see something in Hunter that stands out.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
preemptively speaking, some would call those quotes fluff...
but nobody on the titans ever said that about damian williams, or nate washington...
another difference between jenkins and hunter is jenkins fell to SF, TEN traded up to get hunter... he clearly is a part of their future plans...
if the rams suited up only four WRs, i guess stedman bailey would be inactive... would people drop him then? hunter and bailey are still the same WRs, but it seems like hunter is being dinged due to the vagaries and idiosyncracies of how many WRs his team chose to suit up...
but nobody on the titans ever said that about damian williams, or nate washington...
another difference between jenkins and hunter is jenkins fell to SF, TEN traded up to get hunter... he clearly is a part of their future plans...
if the rams suited up only four WRs, i guess stedman bailey would be inactive... would people drop him then? hunter and bailey are still the same WRs, but it seems like hunter is being dinged due to the vagaries and idiosyncracies of how many WRs his team chose to suit up...
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Adam Harstad
Moderator
And all it took was an injury ahead of him on the depth chart and 60+ attempts by his quarterback...Ketamine Dreams said:
