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Sylvia should not be mentioned in any tier. He is busy fighting in freak shows. Rogers has done nothing other than landing a punch on Arlovski's chin and lasting a round and a bit with Fedor. Seriously, without checking his record, can you name one good mediocre guy he has fought asides from Fedor and Arlovski?
at the time he fought Fedor, Sylvia was considered a top-5 HW. Rogers' only top opponent was Arlovski, true, but I don't think his record pre-Fedor was all that much different than what Carwin's bringing to the table now. it sounds a little like you have an axe to grind with Fedor or something - I'm not trying to tell you he's been fighting the best of the best, but neither have the top UFC guys to this point.
I have no axe to grind with Fedor. He is a great fighter and its a shame that he isn't, and likely won't be, fighting the top heavyweights for the rest of his career. He'll likely retire with just the one loss on his record instead of challenging the current best fighters in the world. I'd love to see him fighting guys like Lesnar, Cain, dos Santos, Mir, Carwin etc instead of guys like Rogers, Arlovski and Werdum. I think he is a little over-hyped at this point in his career considering the recent competition he has been fighting. He had a chance to bang with the big boys and decided not to.
gotcha - we're pretty much on the same page, then. I do think he's still at the top of the heavyweight heap at the moment though - I'd have him 50/50 against Lesnar and at least a slight favorite against everybody else out there.also I still hold out a little hope he'll make it to the UFC for at least a fight or two, but he's been doing it for twelve years and 30+ fights now and is talking about retirement more and more, so it's almost certainly a pipe dream.
Finney's not even a full time fighterPlus Cyborg is a manAhrnCityPahnder said:
Saw -2000 and +800 somewhere a few days ago.AhrnCityPahnder said:
Voice Of Reason said:
That was frustrating. Almost had a 2-0 night with Bellator, and i think my first winning night with them. If you don't score that 1st round 10-8, i don't know what a 10-8 round would be. Also a little suspect giving Warren rd. 2 as well, he got one takedown, and that was kind of it. Not saying Warren didn't show a ton of heart to bounce back like he did, but that should have been Pitbull's win
yes it is. The rest of the card would have been better if Alves-Fitch were on it instead of the 117 card, but i think that main event will pull a lot of people in by itself. I think Brown-Lytle could be pretty exciting, and Pellegrino-George S. (Trying to spell Sotiroplous without looking it up is tough) should be a heck of a fight too. I am not sure who will win that one, George looked pretty fantastis against Joe Stevenson, but Kurt has been on a tear lately. Should be a fun card to watch
There's more than one fight?
Yes, the Carwin-Gonzaga fight was all Gonzaga prior to Carwin KO'ing him, but let's be real here, Gonzaga landed 3 punches and then scored a single leg on a dazed, broken-nosed Carwin about 30 seconds into the fight - it's not as though Gonzaga was tuning him up for 3 or 4 minutes. From that fight we learned several things: Carwin can take a punch - you get tagged that flush by a HW with power like Gonzaga and don't get put away, you've got a chin in my book.Carwin recovers quickly - despite having his nose broken, Carwin maintained his composure despite being put on his back and was able to stand up almost instantly.Carwin displayed excellent stand up ability after being taken down - so, he got tagged badly, put on his back by one of the better grappler's in the HW division, a legitimate BJJ black belt, and still managed to pull guard from half guard and stand up seconds after being rocked. Carwin has legitimate, real KO power - seconds after being dazed, he standing KO's a tough dude in Gonzaga with an arm punch. Not sure how you can say Carwin is going to be "outclassed". I could likewise make the same statement towards Brock that if this fight stays standing, Brock is going to be outclassed. I don't care how he does it, Carwin's got some of the best stand up in the division. The technique may not be there, but the ability to take a punch and deliver with the kind of power that he does can trump quite a bit of technique disparity. IMO, he's second only to Dos Santos in the striking department in the HW division. Examining the likely paths to victory here:For Carwin: If he can stay off his back, he gains a SUBSTANTIAL advantage in this fight. Brock Lesnar, for all of his mounds of muscle and scary appearance and alleged power, has not shown any sort of legitimate KO power with his punches in any of his professional fights. The best punch he landed was the one that sent Heath Herring tumbling backwards across the ring, and that materialized into absolutely nothing other than a drawn out lay n' pray decision win. You can talk about Carwin having poor stand up defense all you want (seriously, has he ever truly been hit hard in any fight other than the Gonzaga fight to base this assessment off of?) but it's not like Brock is the poster boy for defensive boxing or head movement, he's gotten himself tagged up a few times, fortunately for him by guys with minimal power so it's easy to forget that it even happened. Carwin literally knocks out everybody he fights. This fight stays standing, and skill sets and previous fight history dictates that Carwin becomes the favorite in this fight - I don't see how you could argue it any other way.For Lesnar: Takedowns are obviously key here. If Lesnar can take down Carwin and keep him down, he's probably going to win the fight - either by wearing him down and finishing via TKO by strikes, or grinding out a decision. No secrets there. We know Lesnar's a big, strong, athletic, powerful, agile, [whatever other adjective you want to use to describe him] guy - this is no secret. We also know that Carwin will be the biggest, strongest guy Brock Lesnar has fought, and while not as credentialed, also has legitimate collegiate wrestling experience. We also know that Shane Carwin has ability to stand up after being taken down as evidenced in the Gonzaga fight where he did so against a more experienced grappler while being rocked. I'm not going to say that Gonzaga is close to as strong on the ground as Brock, or that Brock won't be able to hold Carwin down if/when he puts him down, but this is a huge wild card in the fight. If Brock struggles to take or keep Carwin down because of Carwin's wrestling ability or size/strength, Lesnar's going to wear himself out in an attempt to take or keep him down. Furthermore, we've got Lesnar coming off a year long layoff where he battled diverticulitis, apparently was fighting for his life at one time, and lost a substantial amount of bodyweight and strength. We DO NOT know if he has fully regained what was lost. The sheer fact that there is no proof that this is a 100% healthy, returned to full form Brock Lesnar is another thing that must be examined when considering a bet on this fight.It's easy to look at Lesnar and say "damn, this guy's a monster, no one's ever going to beat him, he's way too big and athletic." But examine both fighter's strengths and weaknesses, previous fight history, paths to victory in this fight and the wildcard of Lesnar having had such a long lay off due to a debilitating illness and I find it hard to justify a bet on Lesnar here. As I said in a previous post, I'm on Carwin for multiple units - because when you consider everything surrounding this fight, there's less questions surrounding Carwin's path to victory than there are Lesnar's, and the + vig makes this a very strong bet for me.
If Alves was training with guys who couldn't push him in training, like Rampage at Wolfslair, then I'd be more concerned. He should be pretty sharp working with ATT.
The 2nd round was easily the closest, and I gave it up Warren. I guess I could see a 10-8, 10-10, 10-9 for a 29-28 Pitbull scorecard. But I was absolutely shocked by Jimmy Smith's comment that Pitbull wasn't dominant enough to warrent a 10-8 in round 1. Rothwell-Velasquez round 1 was probably the first time I thought at 10-7 was the right score, and round 1 was closer to that than the next 2 10-9 rounds I thought Warren won.Voice Of Reason said:
Watch it live. Part of the fun is talking about the prior fight.On Lesnar / Carwin...I read somewhere (and can't find it again now) that for the Mir fight, Lesnar trained almost exclusively on grappling and submission avoidance. If you'll remember, Mir had zero offense on the ground. You'll probably also remember that Lesnar's standup wasn't so hot. Obviously, for the Carwin fight, Lesnar is focusing on standup. I have zero doubt that he'll by much sharper on the feet.
couple things:1) you say Carwin getting popped and taken down so easily by Gonzaga is not a big deal because it shows he has a good chin, but it also shows his lack of defense - even guys like Christian Wellish and Neil Wain were able to land shots flush on his head. So far he's gotten away with just walking through the other guy's shots and getting in one of his bombs. Lesnar might not have one-punch KO power like Carwin, but he's got more than enough ability to stun Shane and take him down.2) I don't think Carwin's stand-up is all that great, he just has incredible power - neither he nor Lesnar have a lot of good technique. Lesnar is going to be faster and have the reach advantage in this fight, though. I don't think the clinch is going to work so great for Shane either - letting Lesnar get close enough to get his hands on him is a bad plan. 3) I agree with you that it's better for Carwin if the fight stays standing, but I don't think it will. Lesnar is too quick and athletic for Carwin to keep him off for long. When you watch their fights the speed difference really jumps out - Carwin's average in that regard while Lesnar is a freak of nature. I think he's going to shoot in and take Shane down pretty quickly, and Carwin getting out from under him is going to be a lot tougher than getting out from under Gabriel Gonzaga.again, I think that it would be great if I'm wrong and Carwin takes this - he seems like a good guy. And it's MMA where anything can happen, especially with those little gloves. But as much as I dislike Lesnar, I think he's a special kind of athlete - he's just a crazy package of size, speed, aggression and brute force combined with outstanding wrestling ability. I just don't think Carwin has much to offer Brock Lesnar - I feel like if they fought ten times, Lesnar would probably win 8 of them. I think he's gonna put Shane on the mat and smother him with top control and ground and pound and wear him out en route to either a late-round TKO or a decision.One thing that you mentioned that's a wildcard in all this is whether Lesnar is completely healthy, though. I'm taking the reports that he's fine at face value and predicting accordingly, but like you said, if he is suffering any lingering effects, then Carwin's chances definitely look a whole lot better.
I'd say Carlos Condit was headed to atleast 10-7 in rd 3 vs Marcham.I'm glad he got the stoppage because those reffs probably give him 10-9.The 2nd round was easily the closest, and I gave it up Warren. I guess I could see a 10-8, 10-10, 10-9 for a 29-28 Pitbull scorecard. But I was absolutely shocked by Jimmy Smith's comment that Pitbull wasn't dominant enough to warrent a 10-8 in round 1. Rothwell-Velasquez round 1 was probably the first time I thought at 10-7 was the right score, and round 1 was closer to that than the next 2 10-9 rounds I thought Warren won.Voice Of Reason said:That was frustrating. Almost had a 2-0 night with Bellator, and i think my first winning night with them. If you don't score that 1st round 10-8, i don't know what a 10-8 round would be. Also a little suspect giving Warren rd. 2 as well, he got one takedown, and that was kind of it. Not saying Warren didn't show a ton of heart to bounce back like he did, but that should have been Pitbull's win
I read an interesting thought about the judges scoring this one. The fight was basically for a shot at the title, so they had to have a winner. I wonder if any were hesitent to score it a draw because of this. The promoter for Bellator (Bjorn) said if it would have been a draw they would have had to go to a 4th round, but i don't know if that was known before the fights what would happen if it were a draw. If that was the case though, i wouldn't have been surprised to see Warren take the 4th round, and thus win the fight anyway. But i do agree, if that 1st round wasn't a 10-8, i honestly don't know what would warrant oneThe 2nd round was easily the closest, and I gave it up Warren. I guess I could see a 10-8, 10-10, 10-9 for a 29-28 Pitbull scorecard. But I was absolutely shocked by Jimmy Smith's comment that Pitbull wasn't dominant enough to warrent a 10-8 in round 1. Rothwell-Velasquez round 1 was probably the first time I thought at 10-7 was the right score, and round 1 was closer to that than the next 2 10-9 rounds I thought Warren won.Voice Of Reason said:That was frustrating. Almost had a 2-0 night with Bellator, and i think my first winning night with them. If you don't score that 1st round 10-8, i don't know what a 10-8 round would be. Also a little suspect giving Warren rd. 2 as well, he got one takedown, and that was kind of it. Not saying Warren didn't show a ton of heart to bounce back like he did, but that should have been Pitbull's win
Respectfully, I've always found this stance, mostly fueled by Dana White and the UFC, absurd. He has dominated the best heavyweights in the world for 10 years, and has never so much as been beaten, outside of a stoppage due to a cut from an illegal elbow years ago. The Pride heavyweights were miles ahead of the UFC for a long time, and probably up until Pride was bought out. Personally, I still don't think the UFC has caught up with where Pride was in the heavyweight division at one time. Let's leave further debate of Pride vs UFC for another discussion, thoughCould you build a great resume from one of the current UFC guys you listed? I know everyone loves Brock like he's the best ever but he has only fought FIVE TIMES. Everyone was doing this with Machida until he got cut down twice in a row, and now that kool aid is also gone. Couture, although one of the greats, is way past his prime. I could keep going with the rest of the guys but won't. I'm not saying they suck or even that they aren't the best heavyweights in the world, but to discredit Fedor because he hasn't fought the guys you listed carries little meaning to me. I've been following Fedor for much of his career, and I can say that he's a different kind of guy. Totally dominate over his competition but the most gracious and humble fighter I've ever watched. He doesn't appear to look at things the same way as many of the other fighters. As far as celebrating or boasting, I can't ever remember him doing anymore than a small fist pump after a win. Just walks off back to his corner. I'm not saying he's some sort of saint, but just different. If he cared much about proving himself or what others thought, he would've came over long ago. I doubt he is trying to dodge the top guys or think he's lost it.
Paring down the comments to focus on this point.
Definitely not a gimme but not much is these days. Fwiw, Fedor hasn't went past the 2nd round in 5 years. Just sayin...
I thought you were talking about a fight that had already started tonight. I couldn't find it on the net but that's why. Hasn't started yet. whew
yeah I know it, but I think Werdum is going to try to win this with control - holding Fedor up against the cage, holding top position on the ground, etc, just trying to wear him out and get the decision. He keeps talking about his special secret strategy that nobody's used before, and I'm thinking that's what he's going to do - Rogers was able to hold Fedor against the cage for a good bit of time, and even though Werdum's not that big, he's a good bit bigger than Fedor and he's more used to fighting in a cage. I just think he's going to fight a really defensive fight - Fedor should win it, but I think it's going to take longer than usual for him to find an opening to finish.
Yeah, Thomson looks more like a featherweight next to him.
agreed, good effort by Healy. He looked slippery as hell getting out of a couple of those submissions.
