Unfair keeper trade? (1 Viewer)

[jpwest]

2-player keeper league; rules state that any players traded in the offseason must be kept.

Team 1 is loaded with potential keepers; Team 2 has garbage.

Team 1 trades Rudi Johnson and Larry Fitzgerald to Team 2 for Team 2's first-round pick this year.

In my opinion, this trade should be overturned. In effect, Team 1 is keeping SA and TO, while also getting value for two players he is not keeping.

Thoughts? Am I right, or is this sour grapes?

 

[wannabee]

seems like a legit win/win situation to me. But, I think you might get better feedback in the ACF

 

[Real Man of Genius]

Sounds fair to me. One owner has more good players than he can keep and trades those players to another owner for draft consideration? Happens every year in my keeper league.

 

[gorf]

2-player keeper league; rules state that any players traded in the offseason must be kept.Team 1 is loaded with potential keepers; Team 2 has garbage.Team 1 trades Rudi Johnson and Larry Fitzgerald to Team 2 for Team 2's first-round pick this year.In my opinion, this trade should be overturned. In effect, Team 1 is keeping SA and TO, while also getting value for two players he is not keeping.Thoughts? Am I right, or is this sour grapes?

no, you're wrong. most keeper leagues do this.

 

[Real Man of Genius]

seems like a legit win/win situation to me. But, I think you might get better feedback in the ACF

He might get tumbleweeds in the ACF too.

 

[CA_7]

So you want to overturn it because Team 1 is already too good?

Yea, that sounds legit....

 

[jpwest]

So you want to overturn it because Team 1 is already too good? Yea, that sounds legit....

The thinking here is that each team retains the rights to two players in the offseason. In this case, the team is keeping two players, and getting value for two other players. That amounts to using the rights to four players.As for the ACF, I'm looking for opinions from experienced players.

 

[trader jake]

Team 3 is

BTW - You're Team 3

 

[2112]

yes, you're off base here. this happens every year in every keeper league

 

[tomarken]

2-player keeper league; rules state that any players traded in the offseason must be kept.Team 1 is loaded with potential keepers; Team 2 has garbage.Team 1 trades Rudi Johnson and Larry Fitzgerald to Team 2 for Team 2's first-round pick this year.In my opinion, this trade should be overturned. In effect, Team 1 is keeping SA and TO, while also getting value for two players he is not keeping.Thoughts? Am I right, or is this sour grapes?

In my league, to prevent exactly this type of situation, all offseason trades can include keepers only. So if Team 1 trades away Rudi Johnson and Larry Fitzgerald, he is, in effect, declaring those two players as his keepers. SA and TO would be returned to the player pool. Put another way, you could view it as not allowing any offseason trades until after the keeper deadline. That way the available player pool for the draft doesn't get watered down by a redistribution of talent during the offseason.We've always done it that way and it has worked great.EDIT: In other words, despite what everyone else seems to think, no I do not believe you are way off base for feeling this is unfair. However, if you didn't ALREADY have a rule in place preventing such a trade, there's probably not a whole lot you can do about it now...

 

[rascal]

2-player keeper league; rules state that any players traded in the offseason must be kept.Team 1 is loaded with potential keepers; Team 2 has garbage.Team 1 trades Rudi Johnson and Larry Fitzgerald to Team 2 for Team 2's first-round pick this year.In my opinion, this trade should be overturned. In effect, Team 1 is keeping SA and TO, while also getting value for two players he is not keeping.Thoughts? Am I right, or is this sour grapes?

Sounds fair to me. Team 2 gets two top 20 players that it didn't have for a first round pick, while team 1 is able to salvage some value for being smart the previous year.

 

[glumpy]

One problem I see according to how you described it is that Team 1 ends up with one more draft pick than everyone else, while team 2 ends up with one fewer!

 

[drpill]

yes, you're off base here. this happens every year in every keeper league

Not in mine. We have a rule which prevents trading non-keepers from last year's roster. Sucks for someone like me, as I often have a couple extra guys worthy of consideration who don't make the cut, but it's good for overall league parity and usually leads to a more interesting first round of each year's draft.

 

[blkgolf23]

team 1 made a great trade, getting valve for something he couldn't keep. Team 2 got more then he could have gotten for the 1st round pick.

 

[my man otis]

you have to have rules on this.

basically it boils down to the interpretation that you either own "all" of your team after the last game of the year or own "only two" players from your roster.

I've seen both and have been in leagues where there is both, but you absolutely need to address this.

 

[tangfoot]

It sounds like either you don't know the ins and outs of your league rules or they have not been clearly stated.

In either case, the trade sounds fair and is legal in most keeper leagues. The only situation that would not be legal would be a case where a team trades for a third keeper.

Trading of future draft picks is one of the strategies of quality teams.

 

[jpwest]

you have to have rules on this.

basically it boils down to the interpretation that you either own "all" of your team after the last game of the year or own "only two" players from your roster.

I've seen both and have been in leagues where there is both, but you absolutely need to address this.

Very well put. Thanks.

 

[Bull Dozier]

I'll echo those that say it depends on the rules. I'd have to agree that most keeper leagues do this. However, when our league went to a keeper league, we specifically banned off season trading because we wanted there to be some leveling force each season, and to prevent dynasties. Now, if your league does not specifically prohibit this, then it really is the norm.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Team 3 is BTW - You're Team 3

 

[Loomba]

The trade is legit.

This is a keeper league, the point of which is that teams get to benefit from building a strong roster. If one team has excess talent, why shouldn't they get to trade some of it away for draft picks in an attempt to carry over some value to the next season.

If you don't like this kind of trading, make a rule as suggested above or go to a redraft league.

Better still, convert to a salary cap/auction league that, in my view, is the most fair way to reward the good owners while giving the guys that can't dedicate as much time a fair chance.

 

[GregR_2]

So you want to overturn it because Team 1 is already too good? Yea, that sounds legit....

The thinking here is that each team retains the rights to two players in the offseason. In this case, the team is keeping two players, and getting value for two other players. That amounts to using the rights to four players.As for the ACF, I'm looking for opinions from experienced players.

You need to show in your rules where it indicates that each team only retains the rights to two players at the point in the off-season where the trade took place.If no mention is made that rosters are cut back prior to the keeper deadline, then I don't see justification to believe the rights to the player aren't maintained until that time.

 

[dirtyhalos]

2-player keeper league; rules state that any players traded in the offseason must be kept.Team 1 is loaded with potential keepers; Team 2 has garbage.Team 1 trades Rudi Johnson and Larry Fitzgerald to Team 2 for Team 2's first-round pick this year.In my opinion, this trade should be overturned. In effect, Team 1 is keeping SA and TO, while also getting value for two players he is not keeping.Thoughts? Am I right, or is this sour grapes?

my league requires that no player trades are allowed until after keepers announced (so must be kept by original owner), so in our league, this would be against rules, if that is the intent of your rule, then its written poorly

 

[Cenobite]

2-player keeper league; rules state that any players traded in the offseason must be kept.Team 1 is loaded with potential keepers; Team 2 has garbage.Team 1 trades Rudi Johnson and Larry Fitzgerald to Team 2 for Team 2's first-round pick this year.In my opinion, this trade should be overturned. In effect, Team 1 is keeping SA and TO, while also getting value for two players he is not keeping.Thoughts? Am I right, or is this sour grapes?

In my league, to prevent exactly this type of situation, all offseason trades can include keepers only. So if Team 1 trades away Rudi Johnson and Larry Fitzgerald, he is, in effect, declaring those two players as his keepers. SA and TO would be returned to the player pool. Put another way, you could view it as not allowing any offseason trades until after the keeper deadline. That way the available player pool for the draft doesn't get watered down by a redistribution of talent during the offseason.We've always done it that way and it has worked great.EDIT: In other words, despite what everyone else seems to think, no I do not believe you are way off base for feeling this is unfair. However, if you didn't ALREADY have a rule in place preventing such a trade, there's probably not a whole lot you can do about it now...

100% correct

 

[PatsWillWin]

Legit trade. This is what happens in keeper leagues.

 

[PatsWillWin]

Legit trade. This is what happens in keeper leagues.

 

[doughboydeluxe]

Sounds like a trade that is legit under your current rules.

It would be legit under the rules of my keeper league, too, but with a twist. In our league you lose a draft pick for whatever round your keeper was drafted in. So if Rudi was drafted in the 2nd and Fitz in the 4th, Team 2 would actually be giving up a 1st, 2nd, and 4th for these two players. This makes it much more difficult for a loaded team to sell off its players for keepers.

 

[easy like sunday morning]

2-player keeper league; rules state that any players traded in the offseason must be kept.Team 1 is loaded with potential keepers; Team 2 has garbage.Team 1 trades Rudi Johnson and Larry Fitzgerald to Team 2 for Team 2's first-round pick this year.In my opinion, this trade should be overturned. In effect, Team 1 is keeping SA and TO, while also getting value for two players he is not keeping.Thoughts? Am I right, or is this sour grapes?

Sour grapes all the way. This is the system your league has set up. If team 1 is loaded then congrats to team one for working the system as it is set up. I don't see any justification for an over turn here.

 

[BroadwayG]

Kick them both in the nuts at the draft.

 

[tangfoot]

2-player keeper league; rules state that any players traded in the offseason must be kept.Team 1 is loaded with potential keepers; Team 2 has garbage.Team 1 trades Rudi Johnson and Larry Fitzgerald to Team 2 for Team 2's first-round pick this year.In my opinion, this trade should be overturned. In effect, Team 1 is keeping SA and TO, while also getting value for two players he is not keeping.Thoughts? Am I right, or is this sour grapes?

In the keeper leagues I'm in, the rules state that you own your entire roster until the keeper announcement date, after which you only own the players you designated as your keepers.If you want to wheel and deal prior to the keeper deadline, the more power to you. This prevents owners from dumping at the end of the season and rewards those who are able to stockpile talent (assuming they are then able to trade some of the excess).Of course, my leagues are also keeper-optional, which allows an owner to dump his entire roster back into the pool and acquire supplemental picks prior to the actual draft, in order to "draft" their keepers. Supplemental picks are not tradeable.

 

[TheWick]

Sounds like garbage to me. After the season ended last year you only have your 2 keepers....nothing else. Doesn't make sense to do it any other way to me.

 

[jpwest]

Hey, thanks to all for your consideration and (mostly) helpful replies. This incident pointed out a large hole in our rulebook, and due in part to your input, we now have documented rules in place that make the keeper system clear.

JPW

 

[PahtyTom]

Allowing trades like this is very important to keep everyone on their toes from week 1 thru week 17 even if they are out of contention. Team 1 should not be penalized for putting together a great team throughout the previous season, and the rest of the teams who did not do as well should not be rewarded by getting to draft his players. Legit

 

[tomarken]

Hey, thanks to all for your consideration and (mostly) helpful replies. This incident pointed out a large hole in our rulebook, and due in part to your input, we now have documented rules in place that make the keeper system clear. JPW

Just out of curiousity, what rules did you decide on? I think there are pro's and con's to both sides of this argument...which system is better isn't the point of this thread anyway.Preemptively putting rules in place, whatever they may be, is very important - in my main money league we have a handbook that has grown over the years to be almost 20 pages long. Excessive? Maybe. But we never have any conflicts or disputes over rules.

 

[tangfoot]

we have a handbook that has grown over the years to be almost 20 pages long. Excessive? Maybe.

And if anyone complains, you can simply hit them over the head with that tome.

 

[mcjc4]

Great deal for both teams, not sure why anyone in a keeper league chooses TO over Fitz, so I think team 2 got a top 5 WR and a 10-12 TD RB for a player in the 25-38 range? Solid move by both teams. Team 2 may not be the whipping boy this again

 

[jpwest]

Just out of curiousity, what rules did you decide on? I think there are pro's and con's to both sides of this argument...which system is better isn't the point of this thread anyway.

The rule is basically this one:QUOTE(tomarken @ Aug 23 2006, 10:57 AM)

In my league, to prevent exactly this type of situation, all offseason trades can include keepers only. So if Team 1 trades away Rudi Johnson and Larry Fitzgerald, he is, in effect, declaring those two players as his keepers. SA and TO would be returned to the player pool.

The other way to put it is that we each have the rights to two players, which do not need to be identified until draft night. Everybody else is technically in the draft pool and cannot be traded. When the two keepers are identified, they can be traded for other kept players or draft picks. As you said, there are pros and cons; this happens to be the approach we're taking. And after some lengthy discussion, both of the teams involved in the trade are on board.Thanks again!

 

[tangfoot]

And after some lengthy discussion, both of the teams involved in the trade are on board.

Was the trade allowed to stand?

 

[TheWick]

Marc Bulger is in his contract year...can the rams keep him all season, not re-sign him and then trade him for equal value at the end of the year? There are a maximum of keepers for a reason.

 

[tangfoot]

Marc Bulger is in his contract year...can the rams keep him all season, not re-sign him and then trade him for equal value at the end of the year? There are a maximum of keepers for a reason.

Yes, but it all depends on what date is set as the "end of season".Some leagues set keepers after the NFL season, some do it in training camp. Personally, I prefer the keeper date to be as late as possible in order to hedge against injuries.

 

[jpwest]

Was the trade allowed to stand?

No.

 

[tangfoot]

Was the trade allowed to stand?

No.

Wow. I'd leave a league over that.