Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
Unlimited Vacation time - the "new" trend? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter snogger
- Start date
Philo Beddoe
Footballguy
My last company pulled this crap. I lost 17 accrued weeks. Would have been a large payout. Cali guys got a lawyer and were compensated. The rest of us were left holding our dongs.
James Daulton
Footballguy
Corporate America once again looking out for their own bottom line at the expense of their workers.
At some point in time, workers will have to band together to prevent this kind of thing. Oh that's right, unions have effectively been killed by the media and business.
At some point in time, workers will have to band together to prevent this kind of thing. Oh that's right, unions have effectively been killed by the media and business.
SHIZNITTTT
Footballguy
I don't understand this at all other than it must be bad for the employee. Also, people selling their vacation time back for less than 100% of value...wtf, why would anyone give away days off with pay for less money? Ok, I get it maybe you have an emergency? But, outside of needing to take off for ball cancer selling your guaranteed time off for less than 100% seems like a sucker play!
Scoresman
Footballguy
I like it because it forces people to take vacations and refresh themselves instead of banking it all and becoming burnt out/grumpy/mistake prone in the process. My company doesn't do this but I've always encouraged those who report to me to use their vacation time.
I hate the corporate culture in America where taking vacations is looked down upon. There is no glory in being a miserable workaholic.
I hate the corporate culture in America where taking vacations is looked down upon. There is no glory in being a miserable workaholic.
NutterButter
Footballguy
I'd honestly be happy to sell my days for $.8 on the dollar. Most of the time, I just take random days off here and there b/c we can only bank so much and I'd lose them otherwise. I'd much rather be paid a few hundred bucks.
SHIZNITTTT
Footballguy
I have heard this a couple of times about people only being able to "bank" so many vacation or sick days and after you hit that mark you just lose them. That seems like a weird policy. I guess a company is thinking that the employee who was making 5 bucks an hour 20 years ago and is making 30 bucks an hour now is going to break us when they retire? I dunno
brun
Footballguy
Had this at a company I worked at a couple of years ago. While it was "unlimited" for exempts. there was a suggested vacation usage (in the employee handbook) and that was to follow the vacation accrual rules that were applied to direct employees. Personally I know I used less vacation hours than I would have under an accrual system. Of course, when I got laid off there were no vacation hours owed to me.
NutterButter
Footballguy
I think the idea is that they want you to use your days so that you don't get burnt out.
Sand
Footballguy
As my HR will kindly tell me: You don't lose hours, you just fail to accrue any more hours.
Also, the reason they limit the bank size is the accountants don't like a big liability sitting on their books. That's also the reason why sick time has gone away in favor of PTO - sick time is an unknown liability, which accountants hate.
Last edited by a moderator:
TLEF316
Footballguy
Yeah, this is very clearly a ploy to get simultaneously get liability off the books AND guilt trip people that take vacation. Total garbage.
In my 10 year career, my PTO days have fluctuated between 18 and 25 days. In most years, I take a week vacation during the summer, 2 days off for the NCAA tournament and maybe 1 other 2 day break for a random short trip or family obligation. Other than that, its random full or half days off for my birthday, an appointment, a round of golf or just a mental health day. End of the year is by far the busiest time in my industry, so taking days off after like December 10th (other than the week of Christmas where everyone we work with is generally off anyway) is really tough. So you really need to be mostly done with PTO by Thanksgiving.
If I had "unlimited" days, I'd almost certainly work more. My new gig makes this even more likely, as I'm in a position where the people I work with (people from my company in overseas offices) are less tolerant of me not getting back to them for a day or 2 if I decide I need a break. So when you take a random Friday off, there's no "meh, I'll just email everyone back on Monday". One of my colleagues will have to cover for me, which is obviously just more work for them.
For the most part, I've always been one of the more efficient guys on my team. I refuse to get into the "lets see who can work the longest" contest with the 50 year old women that decide they're gonna show up at 7:45 and stay until 6.(which is only required because they aren't very good at the job) So I already get some eye rolls when I walk out the door at 5 on most days and don't get dragged into the "ugh, there just aren't enough hours in the day" #####ing. I'm sure this would get much worse in an "unlimited PTO environment" when I take my 20th vacation day and they've only taken 5 (because...ya know...they're just SOOOOOOO overwhelmed)
In my 10 year career, my PTO days have fluctuated between 18 and 25 days. In most years, I take a week vacation during the summer, 2 days off for the NCAA tournament and maybe 1 other 2 day break for a random short trip or family obligation. Other than that, its random full or half days off for my birthday, an appointment, a round of golf or just a mental health day. End of the year is by far the busiest time in my industry, so taking days off after like December 10th (other than the week of Christmas where everyone we work with is generally off anyway) is really tough. So you really need to be mostly done with PTO by Thanksgiving.
If I had "unlimited" days, I'd almost certainly work more. My new gig makes this even more likely, as I'm in a position where the people I work with (people from my company in overseas offices) are less tolerant of me not getting back to them for a day or 2 if I decide I need a break. So when you take a random Friday off, there's no "meh, I'll just email everyone back on Monday". One of my colleagues will have to cover for me, which is obviously just more work for them.
For the most part, I've always been one of the more efficient guys on my team. I refuse to get into the "lets see who can work the longest" contest with the 50 year old women that decide they're gonna show up at 7:45 and stay until 6.(which is only required because they aren't very good at the job) So I already get some eye rolls when I walk out the door at 5 on most days and don't get dragged into the "ugh, there just aren't enough hours in the day" #####ing. I'm sure this would get much worse in an "unlimited PTO environment" when I take my 20th vacation day and they've only taken 5 (because...ya know...they're just SOOOOOOO overwhelmed)
Sand
Footballguy
ghostguy123
Footballguy
I did it a while back. At my old job (and also new job) we have max number of PTO hours we can carry. Once we hit the max, we can't accrue any more. I think it is something like 300 hours.
I had right around 300 hours so I cashed in something like 50 hours at 75% to go on the next paycheck. I figured I don't take all that much time off anyway, could use some extra money, and would approach the max again withing a few months anyway.
I haven't done it since. I figure I will just take days off and earn a little less each year. Been well worth it. I do like to keep my available PTO near the max though. In case of emergency, break PTO glass.
sbonomo
Footballguy
Struck a cord? I am generilizing what see. this statement is not a personal attack only an observation.
-OZ-
Footballguy
In that context it makes perfect sense.
although in the last job we were given 30 days/year and could only carry 60 (went to 90 for a bit). You'd find a lot of people "taking weekends off" in which they wouldn't have been working anyway or going to the office in casual clothing and working anyway. But they could avoid a meeting or two and actually get their priority for the day done. The biggest thing about having a set number of days leave is you know everyone is on equal footing. If bob takes Monday off nobody cares (unless it directly impacts them) because you know you can take a day off when you want.
I was quite happy to sell 60 days when I left the job, essentially that becomes part of the severance package.
-OZ-
Footballguy
you just assess which has more value to you - a paid day off in which you'll have to make up the work missed anyway, or the money. If you work in a field where work doesn't accumulate waiting for your return that's different. It also depends how many days you get. Earning 30 days / year creates a different dynamic than 12 or so. Especially if you get at least one 3 or 4 day weekend every month without taking leave.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
I don't disagree but if that was the policy when they started then it's kind of ####ty for the company to not follow through on it. Maybe somebody banked days intentionally to take a long trip in a couple years or maybe they just wanted to cash it in per the policy.
snogger
Footballguy
It isn't, at least in my mind, a sense of "entitlement"...
I accumulate, or at least I did, 16.67 hours per month. But going on vacation cost $$ so going on vacation for 5 weeks a year is not affordable.
Sure you can do the "staycation", but since I work from home I like to actually get away when I take time off.
Other then the two trips I go on with my cousin to his cabin in the summer, which only cost me about $150 each trip, the other vacation I go on is one with my wife and daughter in the summer.
During the winter months, with my wife working in the school district, the only time we can think of going somewhere is when all other Yahoo's are doing the same thing. Not to mention the cost to go somewhere warm where we could enjoy the vacation outside.
So I spend most of the rest of the year "playing the game" to make sure I don't accumulate over 200 hours. In that regard, I was taking my 5 weeks of vacation a year and banking hours at the same time.
In sense I was getting the both of both worlds.... 5 weeks of vacation per year, plus the safety net in case of lay offs. but no more..
My hope is management doesn't go the way most talk about here and make you feel "guilty" when taking vacations as I do plan on tracking my time off and making sure I still take the 5 weeks off.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
This is funny to read. The company just moved to unlimited vacation time. This doesnt screw "the employees". It helps most of them. The only employees that get "screwed" are the guys that have been around forever and have 6 weeks of vacation each year.
Millenials want vacation time and they want it quick.
In most companies vacation time keeps going up,up,up with years if service. Preference to days is often given by seniority. So while you are taking your 6 weeks vacation Mr. 55 year old and taking it around every holiday that exists. Mr. 25 year old is doing your job while you are gone seething mad that you are always gone and they have to work the day before and after every holiday. Eventually they start pointing this out.
You know who starts using less vacation time when the field is leveled? The insecure 55 year old that realizes they arent producing as much as the 25 year old that is paid half as much as them. Guess who takes more vacation? The 25 year old that started with only 5 days and couldnt ever get anything but fridays in february.
Guess who becomes more productive and doesnt get let go in two years? Guess who becomes happier and doesnt jump ship in two years to go work at a more progressive company?
Of course i am oversimplifying, but this is not uncommon. Companies are figuring out that in this ever changing climate 20 years of service isnt as valuable anymore. Especially when salaries and benefits have been known to swell at faster rates than experience enhanced production does.
When you factor in that vacation policies are generally universal, that difference gets exposed in greater detail. So at your lower level positions like admin, warehouse, etc these gaps in production become staggering.
Who do you want in the warehouse? The 25 year old that has no lifting restrictions and can adapt to change of product line much easier, or the 55 year old overweight with bad knees with 6 weeks vacation smoker at 3 bucks an hour more?
moleculo
Footballguy
1. You do understand that everyone who is 55 was 25 at some point, right? Conversely, any 25 yr old will (hopefully) one day be 55.
2. Escalating vacation based on term of service is a tool to encourage loyalty. I guarantee you, that extra week of vacation I'm promised is a couple of years is something I pay attention to and makes me not want to jump ship. Likewise, when I had extra time available, I really didn't want to go back to the standard 2 weeks at another company. This unlimited vacation model removes that tool.
3. I would also point out that experience has value. You ask who is more valuable - the young guy or the old guy. I'd pose I want the guy who knows where everything is and why it is that way, the guy who knows who to see to get #### done, the guy who knows which fork-lift has issues, and the guy who isn't gonna give me any attitude when crap needs done.
Judge Smails
Footballguy
I've been on the management side of the table with a company deciding to do this. Like others have said, it's all about getting the accrued vacation off the books. The tip off is that it always is the suggestion of the CFO, not the VP of HR. HR then spins it as a benefit which is good for employees. It is not. I actually saw no change in vacation behavior after it was implemented. The accruals just stopped.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
I generally like my boss a lot, but he is weird about people taking sick days. Another account manager (who sits next to me) got dinged on his annual review recently under the reliability part because he took a sick day recently (the only PDO he has taken so far in his year plus with the company). According to someone in the know, the boss man doesn't mind us taking a PDO if it is scheduled in advance, as if everyone knows ahead of time when they are going to be sick. People are just weird sometimes.
Arsenal of Doom
Footballguy
I was moved to this from PTO several years back when I moved into the executive band in our company. I proceeded to not take a vacation for the next two years. I probably wouldn't have anyway since I had generally been close to my PTO cap in the years before hand but trying to stay below the PTO cap definitely creates more incentive to take time off.
BTW, not sure if this has been mentioned but accrued vacation/PTO time is reported as liabilities so going to a policy like this is a way for companies to avoid that overhead reporting. I had a Canadian employee who had a massive amount of time accumulated because the laws in Canada don't allow that to be capped and for a while I had to report to my CFO how it was being managed on a quarterly basis. We're a billion+ revenue company and I had to report on PTO for a Director level position to the CFO.
BTW, not sure if this has been mentioned but accrued vacation/PTO time is reported as liabilities so going to a policy like this is a way for companies to avoid that overhead reporting. I had a Canadian employee who had a massive amount of time accumulated because the laws in Canada don't allow that to be capped and for a while I had to report to my CFO how it was being managed on a quarterly basis. We're a billion+ revenue company and I had to report on PTO for a Director level position to the CFO.
Last edited by a moderator:
Scoresman
Footballguy
People need to start coming into work sick, going into this manager's office and sneezing/coughing all over everything including him. Then you'll see if he still wants people there when sick.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
I don't often reply to serious posts with this but...NutterButter said:
moleculo
Footballguy
My past few companies didn't allow roll-on at all. Completely use it or lose it. It's been 15 years or so since I've been at a company that let us roll it over.
My current company:
10 fixed holidays (i.e. bldg will not be open)
2 days of floating holiday
5 days of personal time
15 days (probably 10 for new hires) vacation
Personal time includes sick time and does not have to be scheduled in advance. Vacation time does need to be scheduled. Eliminates the "call in sick" game.
My current company:
10 fixed holidays (i.e. bldg will not be open)
2 days of floating holiday
5 days of personal time
15 days (probably 10 for new hires) vacation
Personal time includes sick time and does not have to be scheduled in advance. Vacation time does need to be scheduled. Eliminates the "call in sick" game.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
Except, as stated numerous times already, this absolutely is not what happens. People end up taking LESS vacation time.
This isn't a brand new thing. It has been done long enough for the data to be out there and it's pretty clear: people take less vacation with "unlimited vacation" than an accrued or specified given amount.
Scoresman
Footballguy
I certainly wouldn't but I'm the work to live type. Never really understood the live to work type unless they're passionate about what they do.
I agree if you take less vacation that is on you. Put on your big boy pants and do what's right for you.
NutterButter
Footballguy
My company doesn't pay out for banked days if you leave. Is that still considered a liability? If not, what other reason would there be for them not allowing me to bank as many days as I wantI don't often reply to serious posts with this but...
AAABatteries
Footballguy
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Why is this funny? My company tells us this all the time, and is THE reason why we have a maximum amount of PTO we can carry.I don't often reply to serious posts with this but...
I suppose they dont want patients dying because of burnt out careless worker slipups. Go figure.
NutterButter
Footballguy
seems like a different type of liability. at any time, they can fire me and be off the hook. and its not like i can just use a bunch of them at will. i still need approval.
James Daulton
Footballguy
Enjoy your zero $'s of accrued vacation when the company that's "looking out for you" by giving you "unlimited" vacation, cans your ###.
Anything the company owes you that's not accounted for on their books somewhere is totally discretionary and up to the company. Doing away with accrued vacation, not matching your 401k contribution until the next year (so if you left during the year you get $0 match), anything they can do to lower their own financial obligations will be bad for the employee.
Anything the company owes you that's not accounted for on their books somewhere is totally discretionary and up to the company. Doing away with accrued vacation, not matching your 401k contribution until the next year (so if you left during the year you get $0 match), anything they can do to lower their own financial obligations will be bad for the employee.
Sand
Footballguy
Yes, as it's a line item in the company budget. Sadly you must live in a state that doesn't mandate payouts for accrued vacation. Many states do.
Most companies want you there all the time. You company has a different atmosphere than many.
The work is never done.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
It's possible that your company is different but 95% or more don't give two ####s about you and you being burned out. They don't want to pay to train someone else, they don't want to get sued if you #### up after working too much and they care about their bottom line - it's laughable that people think otherwise. You being burned out is complete corporate spin for ####### people in the ###.
snogger
Footballguy
Yea, I have yet to work for a company who would say "Hey listen, we see you haven't taken vacation lately and we are concerned about your well being. Please take the next week off to relax".
My concern is during the summer when I take the majority of my vacation I could see, with the new policy, someone in upper management questioning taking 3 weeks off in a 4 month period.
My concern is during the summer when I take the majority of my vacation I could see, with the new policy, someone in upper management questioning taking 3 weeks off in a 4 month period.
-OZ-
Footballguy
-OZ-
Footballguy
we did exactly this a few months back as one of our employees was noticeably burned out.
Last edited by a moderator:
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Burnout leads to mistakes. In the medical field that leads to bad outcomes which leads to lawsuits.
Obviously they dont care that we are burnt out. I am not an idiot. However, they dont want us making the kinds of brainfart screwups that lead to lawsuits, and burnout is the #1 way those mistakes happen.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
You say it like i is a bad thing. It is nothing more than a financial arrangement.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
I know these are the talking points, but those days are over. You think a millennial is looking at the vacation benefits at a place and says to himself "wow! I cant wait until year 20 when I get that 6th week of vacation." They dont think that far ahead career wise. It isn't even just millennials. Tons of people dont think that they will be working where they are now in 5 years. That is going to change even more as technology keeps moving forward.moleculo said:
Obviously experience has value, but how much value? Our warehouse looks completely different than it did 7 years ago. We have several new styles of equipment, we use handhelds and filling machines, our product line has obsoleted and added thousands of SKU's. We will constantly be changing technology and products. The guy who knows where everything is? That's everybody now. You just type it in the gun and it tells you how many we have and exactly where it is. So sure there is still some tribal knowledge that benefits us, but nowhere near as much as it used to. I used to really appreciate when one of the old timers used to point out they thought an order was wrong because Customer ABC has only been buying Product 123 for 10 years. Now when they bring those up we dont even bother digging into it further because the order is correct 99% of the time. The spec just changed or the customer updated their machines so now they get a new product.
Maybe things are different where you work. Some fields have less change or require way more initial on the job training. Our company changes products so often, experience is only so valuable and it never offsets the right skill set and willingness to learn. Training you got 5 years ago might be invalid or obsolete now.
The career trajectory of starting off as a go getter, becoming complacent, and then just becoming a big liability is obviously common enough that companies are making moves o adjust for it. They also want their shot at young talent. Selling them on vacation time in year 15 doesn't help get that done.
Similar threads
