UNOFFICIAL COVID-19: NOT the mainstream Narrative (1 Viewer)

[Doug B]

I'm not proving anything. Just saying "vaccine" immunity is stronger than natural immunity is a statement that has yet to be proven.

That proof is on our doorstep. Corroborative studies of the findings below are forthcoming -- this is all very recent research:

How Immunity Generated from COVID-19 Vaccines Differs from an Infection (NIH.gov, 6/22/2021)

The new evidence shows that protective antibodies generated in response to an mRNA vaccine will target a broader range of SARS-CoV-2 variants carrying “single letter” changes in a key portion of their spike protein compared to antibodies acquired from an infection.

These results add to evidence that people with acquired immunity may have differing levels of protection to emerging SARS-CoV-2 variants. More importantly, the data provide further documentation that those who’ve had and recovered from a COVID-19 infection still stand to benefit from getting vaccinated.

These latest findings come from Jesse Bloom, Allison Greaney, and their team at Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center, Seattle. In an earlier study, this same team focused on the receptor binding domain (RBD), a key region of the spike protein that studs SARS-CoV-2’s outer surface. This RBD is especially important because the virus uses this part of its spike protein to anchor to another protein called ACE2 on human cells before infecting them. That makes RBD a prime target for both naturally acquired antibodies and those generated by vaccines.

...

By closely examining the results, the researchers uncovered important differences between acquired immunity in people who’d been vaccinated and unvaccinated people who’d been previously infected with SARS-CoV-2. Specifically, antibodies elicited by the mRNA vaccine were more focused to the RBD compared to antibodies elicited by an infection, which more often targeted other portions of the spike protein. Importantly, the vaccine-elicited antibodies targeted a broader range of places on the RBD than those elicited by natural infection.

These findings suggest that natural immunity and vaccine-generated immunity to SARS-CoV-2 will differ in how they recognize new viral variants. What’s more, antibodies acquired with the help of a vaccine may be more likely to target new SARS-CoV-2 variants potently, even when the variants carry new mutations in the RBD.

Further reading:

Antibodies elicited by mRNA-1273 vaccination bind more broadly to the receptor binding domain than do those from SARS-CoV-2 infection (Science Translational Medicine c/o PubMed.gov, 6/8/2021)

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EDIT: Looking at Nathan Jessep's last post ... it looks like this Seattle study corroborates some earlier studies mentioned in his link. More studies along these lines will continue, and I expect a consensus to be achieved soon in favor of vaccine-rendered immunity to SARS-CoV-2.

 

[The Z Machine]

Not hardly. Eventually, the world will need a few dozen COVID vaccine producers as it has for influenza vaccines. Novavax will be instrumental in getting the billions living in the developing world vaccinated.

Besides, it's uncommon (maybe never happens, actually) that the first few vaccines developed for a disease remain the top vaccination choices forever. Vaccines are improved over time (not necessarily in efficacy, but also in storage, side effects, etc.). For instance, three polio vaccines were developed by 1961 and though they all helped beat back polio worldwide, none of these are used today in the U.S. The current polio vaccine given to infants and toddlers in the U.S. came to market in 1987.

There's a pretty big furor over one of the current Polio vaccines giving the disease to those vaccinated.  There are real tradeoffs being made in which vaccines are used and how to attack the remaining pockets to try and eradicate polio. 

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/polio/hcp/vaccine-derived-poliovirus-faq.html

"Oral polio vaccines cause about three cases of vaccine-associated paralytic poliomyelitis per million doses."

Still better odds than what would happen if the vaccine wasn't given and polio circulates in the community. 

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

There's a pretty big furor over one of the current Polio vaccines giving the disease to those vaccinated.  There are real tradeoffs being made in which vaccines are used and how to attack the remaining pockets to try and eradicate polio. 

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/polio/hcp/vaccine-derived-poliovirus-faq.html

"Oral polio vaccines cause about three cases of vaccine-associated paralytic poliomyelitis per million doses."

Still better odds than what would happen if the vaccine wasn't given and polio circulates in the community. 

Different animal. The Polio vaccines are made with live, albeit weakened, virus. The mRNA vaccines for COVID are not. There is literally no way for the COVID vaccines to give a person COVID. 

 

[The Z Machine]

Different animal. The Polio vaccines are made with live virus. The mRNA vaccines for COVID are not. There is literally no way for the COVID vaccines to give a person COVID. 

Not the mRNA ones, no.  I think maybe the Russian or Chinese ones are a different story.  It's certainly not widespread if it happens at all with those vaccines.

 

[Mookie]

Some great information being shared here.  Thanks.  My story is less study-based, but maybe my anecdotal experience will help others decide:

I got a mild case of COVID in March, 2020, and didn't find out about it until I was accepted into an antibody study in the summer of 2020.  It turns out that our community's actual infection rate, as shown by positive antibody results, was 10 times the reported rate.  As a participant in the study, I was tested for antibodies three times over the next 7 months - In June of 2020 (positive), October of 2020 (positive), and January of 2020 (negative).  So my antibodies were gone roughly 10 months after I was infected.

Speaking to a Harvard/Stanford educated epidemiologist friend of mine in the Fall of 2020 (she was infected about the same time as me and had a bad case with lasting effects), I asked her if (1) I should get the vaccine when it became available since I had antibodies and (2) if I should "trust" in the science behind the vaccine.  Her response then and now was/is an emphatic yes to both questions.  When a close friend who is way smarter and far more trained in this particular subject than I gives me an emphatic yes, I follow her advice.  I've been fully vaccinated since March and haven't looked back. 

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

Some great information being shared here.  Thanks.  My story is less study-based, but maybe my anecdotal experience will help others decide:

I got a mild case of COVID in March, 2020, and didn't find out about it until I was accepted into an antibody study in the summer of 2020.  It turns out that our community's actual infection rate, as shown by positive antibody results, was 10 times the reported rate.  As a participant in the study, I was tested for antibodies three times over the next 7 months - In June of 2020 (positive), October of 2020 (positive), and January of 2020 (negative).  So my antibodies were gone roughly 10 months after I was infected.

Speaking to a Harvard/Stanford educated epidemiologist friend of mine in the Fall of 2020 (she was infected about the same time as me and had a bad case with lasting effects), I asked her if (1) I should get the vaccine when it became available since I had antibodies and (2) if I should "trust" in the science behind the vaccine.  Her response then and now was/is an emphatic yes to both questions.  When a close friend who is way smarter and far more trained in this particular subject than I gives me an emphatic yes, I follow her advice.  I've been fully vaccinated since March and haven't looked back. 

 Just curious, do you know if she got tested for antibodies at the same intervals (and perhaps beyond) you did? Was just curious if she, having had a more severe infection, had different levels of antibodies. 

 

[Mookie]

 Just curious, do you know if she got tested for antibodies at the same intervals (and perhaps beyond) you did? Was just curious if she, having had a more severe infection, had different levels of antibodies. 

She was not accepted into the antibody study, but her husband was, and he was positive for antibodies in January 2021.  We all got sick around the same time, and his case was like a bad flu with no long-lasting effects - he ran an ultra-marathon last month. 

 

[Gatorman]

The vax is a very complex thing, the virus a is a very complex thing and our immune system is a huge complex system.  You think the variables are known here?  Now?

Are the vax's off EUA yet? 

This is a very interesting way to drive a truck through what we are actually seeing, and I appreciate it as a debate tool, but in terms of truth and reality it is a different animal.

COVID is complex, Our immune system is complex, and the vaccine is complex, and nothing in this world is 100 percent (hell, even gravity is a theory), but this is what we know.

COVID variants have been around for a while now, and scientists and immunologists knew at some point it would likely crossover so they were working on Vaccines, but not for the -19 variant. However, once the variant was out in the open, it was a matter of tailoring the vaccines in prototype to this particular variant.  As of now, that has been a resounding success (Pfizer, Moderna) and a reasonable success (JNJ) to a moderate failure (AstraZenica).

So for part one and three of your argument, it wasn't as complex as you think in that we have been able to mitigate this disease in pretty record time with little to no side effects (Again, if you want "absolutism", try religion bc you ain't gonna find it in science)

As for our immune system, it may be complex, but scientists have been working within it for a while now so they do understand some basic tenets, and this is where the mRNA vaccines really shine.  Unlike traditional vaccines that either use an inert form of the virus (or a live less lethal form), this one uses essentially a "slide show" approach of showing the immune system what to look out for (ie the spike protein) and defend against that. This is why you are seeing such small responses to the vaccine vs what you get from taking it.  The best analogy I can think of is you are getting a slice of Pizza that tastes delicious and doesn't make you gain weight or change your cholesterol and you look at it and say "well, you should gain weight because it is Pizza so I'm not trying it no matter how many slices people ate and didn't gain weight"

 

[Doug B]

if you want "absolutism", try religion bc you ain't gonna find it in science

This, all day. People need to stop looking for 100% assurances.

 

[Terminalxylem]

That proof is on our doorstep. Corroborative studies of the findings below are forthcoming -- this is all very recent research:

How Immunity Generated from COVID-19 Vaccines Differs from an Infection (NIH.gov, 6/22/2021)

Further reading:

Antibodies elicited by mRNA-1273 vaccination bind more broadly to the receptor binding domain than do those from SARS-CoV-2 infection (Science Translational Medicine c/o PubMed.gov, 6/8/2021)

...

EDIT: Looking at Nathan Jessep's last post ... it looks like this Seattle study corroborates some earlier studies mentioned in his link. More studies along these lines will continue, and I expect a consensus to be achieved soon in favor of vaccine-rendered immunity to SARS-CoV-2.

In general, you want antibodies which focus on highly conserved sequences of invading pathogens, because those are the regions least likely to be impacted by structural mutations. In SARS-CoV-2, the best target is the spike protein, because that’s the part which allows it to enter our cells. And the vaccines create antibodies to the most important part of the spike, the section which binds to human angiotensin converting enzyme-2 (ACE-2).

Natural immunity isn’t nearly as selective, a much more trial-and-error process where a mix of antibodies is introduced to different fragments of a digested virus. Some of these antibodies may be neutralizing, rendering the virus ineffective, but that’s not guaranteed by any means.

So the mRNA vaccines not only prime our immune system to produce specific neutralizing antibodies, they do so in a way which makes more virulent, vaccine-resistant mutants less likely. Why? Because a structural mutation which impacts the receptor binding domain of the spike protein will likely impair the virus’ ability to enter cells, and the virus can’t replicate without hijacking our cells’ reproductive machinery.

 

[Terminalxylem]

Also, I find it surprising that people who enjoy gambling have such a hard time understanding odds and managing uncertainty.

 

[Terminalxylem]

 Just curious, do you know if she got tested for antibodies at the same intervals (and perhaps beyond) you did? Was just curious if she, having had a more severe infection, had different levels of antibodies. 

In general, absent immunodeficiency, more severe infections result in higher antibody titers.

Conversely, higher antibody titers are thought to be more effective in preventing recurrent infection, and provide a more durable immune response.

But to be clear, there’s a lot more to the immune system, and memory B/T cells can restimulate an adaptive response even after antibodies wane.

 

[Terminalxylem]

Not the mRNA ones, no.  I think maybe the Russian or Chinese ones are a different story.  It's certainly not widespread if it happens at all with those vaccines.

At this point, there aren’t any live attenuated covid vaccines, though I know they’re being studied. So no risk of vaccine-derived covid analogous to infection from the oral polio vaccine.

 

[[icon]]

Nope

I'm not proving anything. Just saying "vaccine" immunity is stronger than natural immunity is a statement that has yet to be proven.

Also inaccurate, as usual.

"Comparing the antibody levels between those who had a natural infection and those who were vaccinated, the authors found that anti-RBD levels in vaccinated individuals varied widely, from being similar to those infected naturally to almost 20 times more compared to natural infection.

The results indicate that the BNT162b2 vaccine is highly immunogenic and elicits more antibodies than in response to natural infection."

The prevailing data shows Vaccination, on average, builds a significantly more effective antibody response. 

 

[[icon]]

That proof is on our doorstep. Corroborative studies of the findings below are forthcoming -- this is all very recent research:

How Immunity Generated from COVID-19 Vaccines Differs from an Infection (NIH.gov, 6/22/2021)

Further reading:

Antibodies elicited by mRNA-1273 vaccination bind more broadly to the receptor binding domain than do those from SARS-CoV-2 infection (Science Translational Medicine c/o PubMed.gov, 6/8/2021)

...

EDIT: Looking at Nathan Jessep's last post ... it looks like this Seattle study corroborates some earlier studies mentioned in his link. More studies along these lines will continue, and I expect a consensus to be achieved soon in favor of vaccine-rendered immunity to SARS-CoV-2.

Also this.  

So many folks are just dead set on being on the wrong side of science/history on this one. 

 

[IC FBGCav]

What facts are you looking for? 

Like the news today, 99.98 of all deaths come from people unvaccinated now.  It is really simple to do that math and include how many of those unvaccinated people already had covid.  

This works for me.

 

[IC FBGCav]

Also, I find it surprising that people who enjoy gambling have such a hard time understanding odds and managing uncertainty.

So you think when all the data comes out the people that had covid and took the vax will be better protected with less risk?  I will throw 5k on that you are not correct.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

So you think when all the data comes out the people that had covid and took the vax will be better protected with less risk?  I will throw 5k on that you are not correct.

Google “Delta Plus variant”

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

So you think when all the data comes out the people that had covid and took the vax will be better protected with less risk?  I will throw 5k on that you are not correct.

Can you define the bolded terms in your wager?

 

[IC FBGCav]

Can you define the bolded terms in your wager?

I have to deal with the long term effects of having covid.  

Fact

Will getting the vax protect me better after having covid.

No data

Will getting a vax have long term or short term risks

Yes, but no data to what extent

 

[Doug B]

So you think when all the data comes out the people that had covid and took the vax will be better protected with less risk? 

“All the data”? That’s a heckuva hedge in your favor — data will be collected for years to come.

If you’re interested in the state of play at the moment, see the first post on this page.

 

[IC FBGCav]

Google “Delta Plus variant”

You taking the bet?

 

[IC FBGCav]

“All the data”? That’s a heckuva hedge in your favor — data will be collected for years to come.

If your interested in the state of play at the moment, see the first post on this page.

Why is the data i seek not out?  They have the information.

Why is the vax still EUA?

 

[Alex P Keaton]

You taking the bet?

No, I’m banned from gambling

 

[DA RAIDERS]

  The bottom line if you believe in FREEDOM: No other human being has the authority to tell YOU how to treat your mind, body and spirit.  

so you're pro-choice?

 

[IC FBGCav]

One simple question.  How can people pimp that the vax will produce higher better anti bodies than natural immunity.  When they didn't test people that had covid?

 

[IC FBGCav]

No, I’m banned from gambling

Free world.

 

[IC FBGCav]

Is there a case where someone had covid, got it months later and died?

This is as simple as it gets.

 

[IC FBGCav]

I know first hand of at least 5 people that got vaxxed and months later got covid.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

Is there a case where someone had covid, got it months later and died?

This is as simple as it gets.

Very fair question

 

[Doug B]

One simple question.  How can people pimp that the vax will produce higher better anti bodies than natural immunity.  When they didn't test people that had covid?

See first post on this page.

 

[IC FBGCav]

See first post on this page.

I got that dude blocked. 

 

[Doug B]

I know first hand of at least 5 people that got vaxxed and months later got covid.

Getting COVID isn’t a vaccine fail — 8-10 out of 100 will still get an infection. The bar is severity. Getting severe symptoms/hospitalized is a vaccine fail.

 

[IC FBGCav]

See first post on this page.

Summarize please.

 

[Doug B]

Summarize please.

It already is a summary

 

[DA RAIDERS]

I got that dude blocked. 

  it's @Doug B  at least it is, for me.

 

[Doug B]

I got that dude blocked. 

 

[IC FBGCav]

Getting COVID isn’t a vaccine fail — 8-10 out of 100 will still get an infection. The bar is severity. Getting severe symptoms/hospitalized is a vaccine fail.

You are correct, I don't disagree in general.  We will find out if it the numbers are correct later.

 

[Doug B]

Is there a case where someone had covid, got it months later and died?

It’s very, very rare— here was one case in the Netherlands last fall:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-twice-death-dutch-woman/

EDIT: Found two more such cases — a 74-year-old German man and an 18-year-old American man.

 

[IC FBGCav]

It’s very, very rare— here was one case in the Netherlands last fall:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-twice-death-dutch-woman/

EDIT: Found two more such cases — a 74-year-old German man and an 18-year-old American man.

Okay, now how many people who got vax died?  

 

[IC FBGCav]

It’s very, very rare— here was one case in the Netherlands last fall:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-twice-death-dutch-woman/

EDIT: Found two more such cases — a 74-year-old German man and an 18-year-old American man.

If this is your evidence, why do I get vax?

 

[jobarules]

Okay, now how many people who got vax died?  

I said this already. I know ALOT more people and stories of people being vaxxed and getting covid (heck 8 yankees alone). I have yet to hear a single story of someone getting covid twice. I'm sure it has happened but it seems a lot more rare. 

 

[Cold Dead Hands]

I said this already. I know ALOT more people and stories of people being vaxxed and getting covid (heck 8 yankees alone). I have yet to hear a single story of someone getting covid twice. I'm sure it has happened but it seems a lot more rare. 

There have been articles about reinfections since summer 2020. 
 

One other thing to think about, 600,000 people died from COVID. This essentially eliminates 600,000 of the most COVID susceptible people from the equation of reinfection. However, how many people who received the vaccine have died from COVID? How many who completed the mRNA based vaccine protocol died from COVID after being fully vaccinated?

How many people would have died if not for the vaccine and how many would have been reinfected if not for the slowing of the spread due to the vaccine? 

 

[IC FBGCav]

There have been articles about reinfections since summer 2020. 
 

One other thing to think about, 600,000 people died from COVID. This essentially eliminates 600,000 of the most COVID susceptible people from the equation of reinfection. However, how many people who received the vaccine have died from COVID? How many who completed the mRNA based vaccine protocol died from COVID after being fully vaccinated?

How many people would have died if not for the vaccine and how many would have been reinfected if not for the slowing of the spread due to the vaccine? 

All for the data on that.

 

[Terminalxylem]

Like the news today, 99.98 of all deaths come from people unvaccinated now.  It is really simple to do that math and include how many of those unvaccinated people already had covid.  

This works for me.

Do tell.

 

[DallasDMac]

I'll never understand the compulsion to try and convince people of something that they are clearly never going to consider no matter how how well thought out or factual the argument presented is.

 

[jobarules]

There have been articles about reinfections since summer 2020. 
 

One other thing to think about, 600,000 people died from COVID. This essentially eliminates 600,000 of the most COVID susceptible people from the equation of reinfection. However, how many people who received the vaccine have died from COVID? How many who completed the mRNA based vaccine protocol died from COVID after being fully vaccinated?

How many people would have died if not for the vaccine and how many would have been reinfected if not for the slowing of the spread due to the vaccine? 

I posted this earlier. Very few but seemingly more than those previously infected.

 

[Terminalxylem]

So you think when all the data comes out the people that had covid and took the vax will be better protected with less risk?  I will throw 5k on that you are not correct.

Yes. But collecting that data is problematic at best, and convincing you to accept it (if it can be definitely determined) will be even harder.

So why am I convinced?

1. Neutralizing antibodies are central in our immune response to recurrent infection.

2. The mRNA vaccines promote creation of neutralizing antibodies more reliably than natural infection.

3. Higher titers of antibodies generally lead to more robust and durable immune response.

4. The mRNA vaccines lead to higher antibody levels, on average, than natural infection.

5. Significant adverse effects from the vaccines appear inconsequential at this point.

So there is biologic plausibility suggesting mRNA vaccine superiority over natural immunity,  with links to supporting data in this very thread. I’ve seen nothing in support of the opposing viewpoint, where vaccinated people have worse outcomes. 

 

[RG623]

I said this already. I know ALOT more people and stories of people being vaxxed and getting covid (heck 8 yankees alone). I have yet to hear a single story of someone getting covid twice. I'm sure it has happened but it seems a lot more rare. 

One of the Yankees (Torres) got it twice, with being vaccinated in between.

 

[Doug B]

I'll never understand the compulsion to try and convince people of something that they are clearly never going to consider no matter how how well thought out or factual the argument presented is.

There are undecided people lurking on the sides reading this thread, as well.