What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

US Men's National Team (16 Viewers)

Any result other than a win on Tuesday, and the US loses the ability to control its own destiny.

A loss puts them in real deep crap because Guat and T&T could shake hands in round 5 and virtually lock the US out with a draw against each other.

So i think this is as close to a must win as we could imagine in round 4 of qualifying.

This is the EXACT same position we were in last time around where we started

win Antigua

draw @Guat

loss @Jamaica

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Steve Tasker said:
The US has had 3 coaches in the past 18 years.  Does any other top-flight country come anywhere even near that?
Click to expand...
Only Denmark comes to mind because of the unusual long term of Morten Olsen.

I realize finances are an issue here in terms of replacing JK because US Soccer is paying JK more than it can afford and much of it is likely guarenteed.  

 
On the road to Guatemala, and you bring in a bunch of players who haven't played together and play them out of position.  I tend to give coaches a lot of latitude, but this sucks is it's so obviously illogical -- there's nothing there that makes any sense at all.

OTOH, if we can't beat Guatemala and draw T&T at home with any XI guys we have in the pool we don't deserve to go the World Cup.

 
wdcrob said:
On the road to Guatemala, and you bring in a bunch of players who haven't played together and play them out of position.  I tend to give coaches a lot of latitude, but this sucks is it's so obviously illogical -- there's nothing there that makes any sense at all.

OTOH, if we can't beat Guatemala and draw T&T at home with any XI guys we have in the pool we don't deserve to go the World Cup.
Click to expand...
Right, but you experiment at home next Tuesday. After securing at least a point with a solid squad last night.

 
Sunil letting us all understand that this one game aberation does not drive decisions....Does he think people are just forgetting the horror show of last year?


"It's not game-to-game like that," he said. "We get a good result on Tuesday, which we expect, then things are back on track."

 




 



 
wdcrob said:
On the road to Guatemala, and you bring in a bunch of players who haven't played together and play them out of position.  I tend to give coaches a lot of latitude, but this sucks is it's so obviously illogical -- there's nothing there that makes any sense at all.
Click to expand...
The players absolutely sucked.  There is no way around that fact but I feel like JK put them in spots to fail.  

Specfically:

Mix: How many more times do we have to see a naturally offensive and some what soft player put in a DM role?  His skill set is a complete mismatch for that spot

Bradley: The guy is not an attacking midfielder by any stretch.  He has only played that role once at club level and that was in Holland where defense is almost non existent.  Every other club and for most of his national team career he has played a more withdrawn role. He simply is not an effective enough passer to be so far up the field.

Bedoya: The guy has been having a career year at Nantes playing in the middle.  He is adequate on the right but every time JK forces him out on the left, he struggles a bit.

Yedlin: The guy simply NEVER produces in a starting midfield role.  He is better suited to either starting at RB or coming on as a second half sub at midfield.  If Yedlin can't get behind defenses he is almost a complete waste in the midfield because his technique is so low.

Cameron: At this stage he is a CB or a DM.  Sticking him at fullback makes little sense, especially when two CB's are hurt.

That is 50% of our field players playing in spots they don't shine in and that does not even factor in Orozco who never should have been on the field with so little club play.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
I had a lot of things to say but MR said it better. 

A few things not metioned....

I forgot Dempsey was even on the pitch at times. Wood was doing work but Duece seemed to disappear. 

Howard didn't seem very sharp. Not saying either goal was his fault but we need a new GK to step up. 

I actually liked Castillo at LB. 

Nagbe needs to start. 

Did you notice Zardes first touch when he was offside? He his the ball so far forward it was 15 yards from him before he got to it. I think his boots are made of granite. 

 
NewlyRetired said:
Is there a single country in the entire world that keeps its coach after such a long run of poor results?
Click to expand...
I've redirected my anger toward Gulati. Is this guy untouchable or what? Out with both of these charlatans.

 
Time to clean house, this is a lot more than just JK.

I have never been on board with JK since the Landon Donovan situation...have  been looking forward to his demise since.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
CletiusMaximus said:
I've redirected my anger toward Gulati. Is this guy untouchable or what? Out with both of these charlatans.
Click to expand...
I feel the same way now. 

Keller has made multiple comments that he intends to run in the future for an important spot in US Soccer.

Sunil got us into this mess by giving JK total power and a huge salary.   The second of which severely handcuffs us.

The only way out is to eat the salary and then go cheap with Tab, Porter or Vermes.  Porter and Vermes are in great situations so it would be tough to get them super cheap.

Tab could be the cheap interim solution.

I think JK might get fired should the US not win on Tuesday but I think Sunil has to think long and hard whether a change should be made even with a win.

A new coach could take over for the Copa and use that time to get ready for WCQing in the fall.

I expect the US will win at home on Tuesday but in one game anything can happen and we might be out of WC2018 before we ever got started.

 
TripItUp said:
Now the question becomes, do I want us to lose on Tuesday so it's JK's head?  Ugh.
Click to expand...
no IMO. 

A loss and we are almost certainly done.  God that is painful to write :(

With these WC cycles only coming every 4 years I would rather limp to the hex (where we always play better) with a bad coach than I have to wait until September 2018 to start all over again.

It is a bad situation that could/should have been addressed last year when the team imploded.

 
I misspoke earlier when I said anything but a win on Tuesday and the US loses control of its destiny.

Let me lay it out as I understand it.

* A loss and we are almost certainly done (a simple handshake game between Guat and T&T round 5 would see to that).

* A win and the path is very clear, no math needed, just win and in.

* So a draw on Tuesday is when everything gets murky but I still think the US controls its own destiny.

* A draw on Tuesday leaves the points likely at this after 4 rounds

T&T: 10 points

Guat: 7 points

US: 5 points

* Stipulate that every thing below assumes the US wins its last two games

* The key game now becomes T&T vs Guat in round 5.

* If either team wins the US is through (see stipulation above).  If either teams wins, that means both can not get past 11 points at the end of the round (which is where the US will be based on the stipulation)

* If they draw, then the most likely scenario, assuming Guat wins at home vs St Vincent in round 6 would be

US: 11 points

T&T: 11 points

Guat: 11 points

and then it comes down to GD in which the US will have its own destiny in control since it is playing T&T last. 

It might not be pretty if T&T crushes St. Vincent at home on Tuesday but the US should still be alive after a draw on Tuesday if I thought through this right.

 
Obviously I would not expect the USSF leadership to get rid of JK on a short weekend with a very important game upcoming.  I think his recent performance merits questioning, but you don't do it right now unless you really think he has 100% lost the team.

A loss on Tuesday is an absolute disaster.  I don't care how much we collectively dislike JK, they cannot lose on Tuesday.  A loss on Tuesday, and T&T and Guatemala just need to beat St. Vincent at home (T&T would only need a draw) and the US is done.  You cannot hope for a loss on Tuesday.  Soccer has come a long way in this country but not qualifying for the World Cup would be a disaster.

 
Steve Tasker said:
Obviously I would not expect the USSF leadership to get rid of JK on a short weekend with a very important game upcoming.  I think his recent performance merits questioning, but you don't do it right now unless you really think he has 100% lost the team.

A loss on Tuesday is an absolute disaster.  I don't care how much we collectively dislike JK, they cannot lose on Tuesday.  A loss on Tuesday, and T&T and Guatemala just need to beat St. Vincent at home (T&T would only need a draw) and the US is done.  You cannot hope for a loss on Tuesday.  Soccer has come a long way in this country but not qualifying for the World Cup would be a disaster.
Click to expand...
Yeah, we don't want to become England without the long ago WC title.

 
@NewlyRetired your math is correct.

The problem I have is leaving it up to a must-win final game against T&T.  Obviously the US is better on paper and should win, especially at home, but I can envision a nightmare of T&T parking the bus and frustrating the US to a draw.  Even if T&T is already through, if the US is playing for their lives, I have to assume T&T is going to show up, because keeping the US out of the hex exponentially increases their chance of making WC 2018.

This could all be moot if the US wins on Tuesday and beats St. Vincent, and T&T beats Guatemala at home on 9/2.  Guatemala would have 6 points, US would have 10, T&T would have 10-11-13 depending on their result vs. St. Vincent.  The last group game against T&T would be meaningless.

 
Steve Tasker said:
@NewlyRetired

This could all be moot if the US wins on Tuesday and beats St. Vincent, and T&T beats Guatemala at home on 9/2.  Guatemala would have 6 points, US would have 10, T&T would have 10-11-13 depending on their result vs. St. Vincent.  The last group game against T&T would be meaningless.
Click to expand...
This is the best case scenario.  Qualifying a game early from this round has not happened often (once maybe?).

I don't care how ugly it is to get the win on Tuesday, I will take a ricochet off of a Zardes shin for a winning goal.

Hopefully Ruiz does not come on Tuesday to lower the annoyance factor.

It is amazing how exact this scenario was to 2014 qualifying where we went into game 4 with a must win, and Herc's second half free kick got us the 3 points against Jamaica at home.

Hopefully traveling to St. Vincent will not be the butt clenching experience it was when we went to Antigua in the last cycle and the unlikely Gordon to Johnson combo won us the 3 points very late.

 
There's so such thing as losing for the benefit of the long term here because who feels like waiting 6 years for a World Cup?

The mistake was not getting rid of JK after he failed against Mexico last year.  Now you have to see through at least this game.

what will be interesting is what they do with JK if they only manage a draw Tuesday.  Mexico was switching coaches on a game by game basis by the end of last hex, but the end justified the means and they got in.  I'd move on from JK on anything short of a win.

And if they went domestic route (they'd need to this time IMO), I'd see if Oscar Pareja was interested.  I doubt he would leave FC Dallas right now but I'd ask. This is ultimately Porter's destiny, but won't take it until the start of a cycle.

stopgaps:  Kinnear?  Kreis?  Sigi?  Maybe John Hackworth? (kidding)

 
Ted Lange as your Bartender said:
what will be interesting is what they do with JK if they only manage a draw Tuesday.  Mexico was switching coaches on a game by game basis by the end of last hex, but the end justified the means and they got in.  I'd move on from JK on anything short of a win.

And if they went domestic route (they'd need to this time IMO), I'd see if Oscar Pareja was interested.  I doubt he would leave FC Dallas right now but I'd ask. This is ultimately Porter's destiny, but won't take it until the start of a cycle.

stopgaps:  Kinnear?  Kreis?  Sigi?  Maybe John Hackworth? (kidding)
Click to expand...
I think they even need to consider a change with a win.

You can probably add Tab to the list of stop gaps.

I mentioned earlier that getting any of the MLS guys (Porter, Vermes, Pareja) might be tough as the ones you want are all in good situations.

I think Kreis is a good coach who got caught in a nightmare situation last year in NY but I don't know how the public would respond to a guy getting fired and moving to a huge promotion.

 
Mix had a rough week huh?  First he gets called out by his fellow MLS players as being the most overrated in the league and then struggles mightly against Guat which earned him this review from Soccer America

2 Mix Diskerud (New York City FC) 37/6
Perhaps unlucky that Morales' downward header went off him into goal but can't be excused for being so easily muscled off ball sent into area on corner kick. Failed to prevent goal kick from getting past him and on to Ruiz. Subbed out at the half after a career-ruining performance.

 
bagger said:
Tonight was beyond gross. Feels like I am watching the US revert 30 years. Post World Cup this team has been about as big of a disaster as I can remember.
Click to expand...
JK deserves a lot of blame but honestly the players are just not talented enough. People are fooling themselves that changing coaches is going to unlock some hidden potential because it's simply not there to begin with. Sure they should beat Guatemala but what does it matter if they can't consistently compete with teams at the top level, regardless of the coaching staff. 

 
Tuesday is such a big day for US soccer. By night's end we can be out of both the Olympics and the World Cup. That would set us back immeasurably.

 
TwinTurbo said:
 Sure they should beat Guatemala but what does it matter if they can't consistently compete with teams at the top level, regardless of the coaching staff. 
Click to expand...


Just because we can't compete with the best in the world does not mean we should look to either give up or minimize what little we have. 

If that is the general attitude we might as well give up the sport now along with 180 other nations who can't compete at the highest level.

 
NewlyRetired said:
Just because we can't compete with the best in the world does not mean we should look to either give up or minimize what little we have. 

If that is the general attitude we might as well give up the sport now along with 180 other nations who can't compete at the highest level.
Click to expand...
It's just my frustration with the lack of improvement over the last decade. I don't think this team could even compete with the 2002 USMNT. And that team did compete at the highest level. 

 
Minor story, but Tony Tchani is now officially cap-tied with Cameroon after getting subbed into their AFCON qualifying match.

Not a huge loss I guess though I'd probably rather have seen him over Mix as a holding mid last night

 
TwinTurbo said:
JK deserves a lot of blame but honestly the players are just not talented enough. People are fooling themselves that changing coaches is going to unlock some hidden potential because it's simply not there to begin with. Sure they should beat Guatemala but what does it matter if they can't consistently compete with teams at the top level, regardless of the coaching staff. 
Click to expand...
Tell that to Mexico after they brought half the Club América team, leaving their world class players at home for do or die games last cycle and crushed it.  

 
The Z Machine said:
What is the best all USA MLS club?  That's that team you roll out against StV&tG
Click to expand...
We don't really have one that stands out.  Last year it could have been the Revs (Ngyuen, Rowe, Jones, Farrell, Agudelo, Tierny, Bunbury, Davies, Caldwell etc) but even then it was not great.  

The better/best American players are spread out across the league.

We can all argue whether the right players are being called and how they are used but I guess that happens with every fan base.

 
TwinTurbo said:
JK deserves a lot of blame but honestly the players are just not talented enough. People are fooling themselves that changing coaches is going to unlock some hidden potential because it's simply not there to begin with. Sure they should beat Guatemala but what does it matter if they can't consistently compete with teams at the top level, regardless of the coaching staff. 
Click to expand...
What matters is that we should be setting a baseline for us to grow from. That should include not losing to a Guatamala team especially in the way we did with as poor as the back line looked.

Just because we can't compete with Germany shouldn't mean we shouldn't even bother qualifying with the World Cup. What kind of logic is that.

 
TwinTurbo said:
It's just my frustration with the lack of improvement over the last decade. I don't think this team could even compete with the 2002 USMNT. And that team did compete at the highest level. 
Click to expand...
Here is a piece of trivia that might make you feel better (or least not so crappy).

That 2002 team was in just as bad a position in this round of qualifying as the current team is.

The US went into the very last game of the round needing 3 points to advance, in an away game.

The score was level until the 63rd minute.

Talk about butt clenching time.  :( And this was at a point in time where failure to qualify for the WC very likely meant the end of MLS.

At least now we don't have that worry, it is more about slowing progress of the sport instead of the complete destruction of it.

 
Haven't they lost a game in this round every time going back 16 years or something? They look terrible but there is also likely some overreaction due to recency bias. 

 
This round of qualifying does not always indicate how your team will do in the WC itself

===============================================

1998: We breezed through this round, and went 0-3 in the WC, worst record in the entire cup

2002: struggled all the way in the round and made the quarter finals of the WC

2006: breezed through this round, but were dumped in the group stage coming in last in group

2010: breezed through this round, and won the WC group (lost in second round)

2014: struggled all the way in the round and made it out of the group (lost in second round)

 
Capella said:
Haven't they lost a game in this round every time going back 16 years or something? They look terrible but there is also likely some overreaction due to recency bias. 
Click to expand...
Here are the records for this round for each cycle

W-D-L

1998: 4-1-1

2002: 3-2-1 (qualified by winning last game)

2006: 3-3-0

2010: 5-0-1

2014: 4-1-1 (qualified by winning last game (needed a draw)

2018: 1-1-1 (still 3 games to go, exact same record after 3 games as 2014 cycle)

 
Last edited by a moderator:
TwinTurbo said:
JK deserves a lot of blame but honestly the players are just not talented enough. People are fooling themselves that changing coaches is going to unlock some hidden potential because it's simply not there to begin with. Sure they should beat Guatemala but what does it matter if they can't consistently compete with teams at the top level, regardless of the coaching staff. 
Click to expand...
Personally, I think a coach who at a minimum plays the players at their natural positions would be a huge improvement.   This thought process of believing you're the smartest guy in the room and know more than respective club teams is maddening.

 
Ugh so I was a believer in JK until last night. I've always realized that the US men's team would never be an upper echelon team but last night was flat out embarrassing. Our top athletes will always gravitate to American football, basketball and baseball but with our population size I would think that we could still field teams better than this. JK needs to realize that we are not these other countries that are able to draw their top athletes and play the players he has in the positions that they are accustomed to. Maybe he should read money ball and see how the A's deal with this issue or maybe it's just time I put the JK juice down and quit getting my hopes up.

 
The soccer media need to take Klinsmann to task. I want to hear him hammered about everything we talk about in here. Unfortunately it seems our soccer media has their kid gloves permanently sewed on. Why hasn't anyone asked directly "why do you keep playing Yedlin at midfield when every team he has ever played for plays him at RB?" "Why do you keep playing Fabian out of position......"  Cameron, etc. I want him asked direct. Not generic about positions in general. That just leads to outs about philosophy. Direct questions and follow ups that show he's an idiot for be ing so arrogant. Point out to him directly how hypocritical it is of him to play Orozco when he preaches about club form and earning your way. These reporters are tweeting and writing these things, but when it comes time to go face-to-face, they cower. 

I've redirected my anger at the media. 

 
Here is what I would try.

........................GK (either Howard or Guzan)

Yedlin.......Gonzo.......Cam.........Castillo

Nagbe.........Bedoya.......Bradley.......?

..................Wood..........Jozy/Dempsey

? = Fab if healthy, if not choose between Ngyuen, Finlay or Zardes or even Pulisic if healthy.

 
Replacing JK is complicated for the reasons listed below. All of these reasons I place the blame squarely on Sunil.

1) Finances: Any one who has read the last couple of US Soccer Yearly financial reports understands the federation is far from swimming in money. One could argue that they are spending more on JK than they can afford with the hopes it pays off on the back end. It is my guess that Sunil ceded so much power in the re-sign that most if not all of JK's contract is guaranteed, limiting how much we can actually spend on the next coaching system.

2) Dual Hats: Because there is no realistic way to fire the coach with out firing the technical director, Sunil has created the issue of having two holes to fill should he fire JK. Again, finances are going to come into play.

3) Timing: Most agree that with a loss on Tuesday, JK must be 100% fired but the problem with the timing is that it is going to be near impossible to sign a quality coach with out any real chance of qualifying for the WC. No one is going to leave a good spot in MLS or any where else to be a care taker until the next cycle starts. Sunil again is to blame for this since the proper timing for this was last year, either after the Gold Cup or after the Mexico game.


Ignoring the finances for now, IMO, the best time to fire JK would be after a win on Tuesday. You can then sell the job to the new coach with friendlies and the Copa as excellent preparation for the fall qualifiers and the new coach feeling that making the Hex has a realistic chance which is going to make the job more attractive. The new coach would have 3+ months to get familiar with the playing base and not feel like he has to just use exactly what is in front of him at that moment in time.

 
-550 to win Tuesday. Guat is +1200. If you don't know gambling odds, that is a monumental favorite. 

Draw is +450. 

 
CHICAGO (March 27, 2016) - U.S. Men’s National Team head coach Jurgen Klinsmann has added midfielders Graham Zusi from Sporting Kansas City and Christian Pulisic from Borussia Dortmund to the roster for USA-Guatemala, presented by Liberty Mutual Insurance. Game 4 of Semifinal Round qualifying for the 2018 FIFA World Cup kicks off at 7 p.m. ET on March 29 in Columbus, Ohio [TICKETS].

A veteran of the 2014 FIFA World Cup, Zusi has earned 32 caps and tallied three goals. He last appeared in the third-place match of the 2015 Gold Cup.

Pulisic makes his debut in a Senior National Team camp. The 17-year-old represented the United States at the 2015 FIFA U-17 World Cup in Chile. He has appearances for Dortmund this season at the U-19, U-21 and first team levels.

Since he has not made enough progress to be ready for Tuesday’s match, Fabian Johnson has returned to Borussia Moenchengladbach for further treatment on a groin injury suffered prior to his arrival into camp. Matt Besler will travel to Kansas City today after sustaining a concussion in training last Thursday

U.S. ROSTER BY POSITION
GOALKEEPERS (4): David Bingham (San Jose Earthquakes), Brad Guzan (Aston Villa), Tim Howard (Everton), William Yarbrough (Club Leon)
DEFENDERS (8): Ventura Alvarado (Club America), Steve Birnbaum (D.C. United), Geoff Cameron (Stoke City), Edgar Castillo (Club Tijuana), Omar Gonzalez (LA Galaxy), Michael Orozco (Club Tijuana), DeAndre Yedlin (Sunderland)
MIDFIELDERS (8): Kyle Beckerman (Real Salt Lake), Alejandro Bedoya (Nantes), Michael Bradley (Toronto FC), Mix Diskerud (New York City FC), Ethan Finlay (Columbus Crew SC), Fabian Johnson (Borussia Monchengladbach), Darlington Nagbe (Portland Timbers), Lee Nguyen (New England Revolution), Graham Zusi (Sporting KC), Christian Pulisic (Borussia Dortmund)
FORWARDS (5): Jozy Altidore (Toronto FC), Clint Dempsey (Seattle Sounders FC), Chris Wondolowski (San Jose Earthquakes), Bobby Wood (Union Berlin), Gyasi Zardes (LA Galaxy)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Hope for a win, then hire a foreign coach to come in and make a name for himself  during the Copa.  Make the hex and he's got a great shot at getting the gig through the WC.  That's how most other countries would approach this.

 
NewlyRetired said:
Replacing JK is complicated for the reasons listed below. All of these reasons I place the blame squarely on Sunil.

1) Finances: Any one who has read the last couple of US Soccer Yearly financial reports understands the federation is far from swimming in money. One could argue that they are spending more on JK than they can afford with the hopes it pays off on the back end. It is my guess that Sunil ceded so much power in the re-sign that most if not all of JK's contract is guaranteed, limiting how much we can actually spend on the next coaching system.

2) Dual Hats: Because there is no realistic way to fire the coach with out firing the technical director, Sunil has created the issue of having two holes to fill should he fire JK. Again, finances are going to come into play.

3) Timing: Most agree that with a loss on Tuesday, JK must be 100% fired but the problem with the timing is that it is going to be near impossible to sign a quality coach with out any real chance of qualifying for the WC. No one is going to leave a good spot in MLS or any where else to be a care taker until the next cycle starts. Sunil again is to blame for this since the proper timing for this was last year, either after the Gold Cup or after the Mexico game.


Ignoring the finances for now, IMO, the best time to fire JK would be after a win on Tuesday. You can then sell the job to the new coach with friendlies and the Copa as excellent preparation for the fall qualifiers and the new coach feeling that making the Hex has a realistic chance which is going to make the job more attractive. The new coach would have 3+ months to get familiar with the playing base and not feel like he has to just use exactly what is in front of him at that moment in time.
Click to expand...


Seems like financing can be solved by a healthy contribution from a broadcast partner who stands to lose most of their investment if the US does not qualify for the WC...

 
The Z Machine said:
Hope for a win, then hire a foreign coach to come in and make a name for himself  during the Copa.  Make the hex and he's got a great shot at getting the gig through the WC.  That's how most other countries would approach this.
Click to expand...
I don't really care where the coach is from but he has to understand Concacaf.  We can't afford another coach who thinks these away games are like the luxury vacations the Euro teams take when playing the smaller Euro countries.

We have never had a South American head coach in our history.

19 Americans

13 Europeans (4 from Germany, 5 from the UK)

 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

snogger
I'm starting a new job and looking for insight on leading a team
Replies
37
Views
960
Phil Elliott
Phil Elliott
titusbramble
  • Poll Poll
2026 FIFA World Cup megathread
3 4 5
Replies
229
Views
4K
QuizGuy66
QuizGuy66
the moops
Taste test ideas
Replies
38
Views
524
bcat01
B

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 11 (members: 1, guests: 10)
Back
Top