BeTheMatch
Footballguy
Forgot to mention... Loved the military guys in full riot gear and giant shields protecting US player taking corners. Maybe that's a sign they shouldn't allow games there. WTF?
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US Men's National Team (16 Viewers)
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NewlyRetired
Footballguy
here are some GGG comments post game
======
"It turned into too hectic of a game and we didn't manage it well enough. ... Overall, I wasn't happy with the control of the game."
On Dest: "We'll review his performance and talk to him about his evaluation ... we know he's a quality player ... for him it's just a learning experience as well, for a young player, plays at Ajax, Barcelona now, they don't play in environments like this."
"great learning experience that was needed but we need to play better"
On Miles: "I thought he was outstanding defensively. I was happy with his overall performance"
On Concacaf away games: "You can talk about them but until you're actually in them, it's hard to understand. We got the game under out belt, got a point and we’ll move on."
On Brooks: Just confirmed it was load management only.
======
"It turned into too hectic of a game and we didn't manage it well enough. ... Overall, I wasn't happy with the control of the game."
On Dest: "We'll review his performance and talk to him about his evaluation ... we know he's a quality player ... for him it's just a learning experience as well, for a young player, plays at Ajax, Barcelona now, they don't play in environments like this."
"great learning experience that was needed but we need to play better"
On Miles: "I thought he was outstanding defensively. I was happy with his overall performance"
On Concacaf away games: "You can talk about them but until you're actually in them, it's hard to understand. We got the game under out belt, got a point and we’ll move on."
On Brooks: Just confirmed it was load management only.
ChiefD
Footballguy
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Ted Lange as your Bartender
Footballguy
Concacaf qualifiers will always just be a different sport compared to what these fans watch on Saturday mornings. Even the elite euro national teams would have headaches playing in Central America.
yes and no. I do think the conditions of an away Concacaf qualifier are unlike anything a typical European team will have seen, and not even close to playing a European minnow.
But, what I saw last night was more down to a lack of composure by the US. A typical European team would have had a far more veteran presence in the squad. For all the talent, the US squad is very young, and relatively inexperienced. El Salvador obviously wanted to create a hectic game/pace - but I thought the US played into that as well. A more mature team could have slowed the game down, and let El Salvador chase the ball around the pitch and wear themselves out.
"lack of composure" is probably not the right word choice - but a more mature team doesn't get sucked in to playing at El Salvador's pace, they move the ball around calmly, and probe for openings.
JaxBill
Footballguy
El Floppo
Footballguy
lack of composure is fair...individually and collectively.
it's still not clear to me what they were trying to do out there on attack.
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
Major positive from last night that carries over from the Gold Cup: the US didn't control the midfield, but they did control the chances. El Salvador created almost nothing.
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
I don't think they got sucked in as much as they were under massive pressure because El Salvador was up for it, and the US first-touch control was terrible.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
I don't really understand how ELS are being competative given their talent level but if some one does not hire Hugo after this, they are nuts. If he can squeeze this level of competitiveness out of USL level players, imagine what he could do with a Honduras type team?
I was very pleased how little real chances ELS had. I honestly only remember the weak header that was an easy save for Turner. ELS did create a decent amount of corners though but they did not come to much.
I was very pleased how little real chances ELS had. I honestly only remember the weak header that was an easy save for Turner. ELS did create a decent amount of corners though but they did not come to much.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
Reyna, Weston, Robinson, Adams, and Ream all went 90.
Outside of Brooks in for Ream, I have no clue who is going to start against Canada.
Any of you guys have a guess? I assume if they feel Pulisic is ready, he will start.
Weston picked up a yellow I believe.
Outside of Brooks in for Ream, I have no clue who is going to start against Canada.
Any of you guys have a guess? I assume if they feel Pulisic is ready, he will start.
Weston picked up a yellow I believe.
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
On reflection, and at risk of breaking through the dead horse's rib cage, I really want to see more of a McKennie--Acosta--Adams midfield. For the 1.2 minutes we had it last night things seemed to flow better and Acosta was, again, very dynamic.
gianmarco
Footballguy
Agreed. They did have a good header attempt off a corner that went over the bar, but otherwise Turner didn't have much to do.
Thinking on it this morning, it's an ok result and disappointing, but in the end, not crazy bad.
First, looking at xG, and knowing if Miles buried that header early on, this is a very different conversation. This stuff happens. Look at Germany and Lichtenstein for most of the game, for example.
-- We have a very young team. No matter how good, that lack of experience matters
-- Lack of experience in CONCACAF WCQ. Same thing, especially away. It's a different animal
-- It's the very first game. The first half seemed reserved. The US was more aggressive the second half but just didn't end with a result
-- Late at night, humid, hostile crowd. Guys want to show up. I think there was lot of mental and physical factors at play. Plus recent travel, long summer, etc
This home match at Canada can right the ship immediately and I expect that will happen.
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
I don't know. This felt like a pretty typical recent performance to me. The US did well to limit chances. They controlled the game. And they lacked a cutting edge in the final third. That was pretty much the entire Gold Cup. They still generated some chances and should have probably won. I agree that I thought they had trouble switching the field and hitting long diagonals, but that's something you kind of lose in playing Adams if you're also going to rest Brooks.
Even so, I thought only two players stood out as clearly below par. Aaronson couldn't find the ball. So he wasn't up to the standard, but it wasn't the type of bad performance that leaves me tearing my hair out. That honor goes to Dest, and it's becoming a bit of a habit. I've seen Dest lock-up Phonzie Davies in the Nations League and the big names from France in the U20 World Cup. I know he can defend when he's locked in mentally and focusing on it. But that is rarely the case in his USMNT appearances. Sometimes, all his saucy tricks are working and it doesn't matter. BUt when they aren't, you get a giveaway machine who doesn't make defensive contributions. And that is no bueno.
I seem to be in the minority, but of all the attackers, I thought Gio had clearly the best game. He played passes that led to the two biggest missed chances. He got in the box twice early (admittedly, both times he seemed to try to beat the keeper near side and high instead of playing the percentage and pulling back). He had some turnovers, but he also had a lot of successful dribbles.
This is the first game where I did thing that Turner's distribution might have hurt the team a bit. Not so much the mistake that lead to the corner, as that's a one-off thing. But after that, Turner played it very safe and huffed a bunch of backpasses upfield when he was under only moderate, one-man, pressure.
In all, I'd rate this performance a 6 considering the circumstances. That's a hell of a lot better than the first games of the last two final qualifying cycles.
Even so, I thought only two players stood out as clearly below par. Aaronson couldn't find the ball. So he wasn't up to the standard, but it wasn't the type of bad performance that leaves me tearing my hair out. That honor goes to Dest, and it's becoming a bit of a habit. I've seen Dest lock-up Phonzie Davies in the Nations League and the big names from France in the U20 World Cup. I know he can defend when he's locked in mentally and focusing on it. But that is rarely the case in his USMNT appearances. Sometimes, all his saucy tricks are working and it doesn't matter. BUt when they aren't, you get a giveaway machine who doesn't make defensive contributions. And that is no bueno.
I seem to be in the minority, but of all the attackers, I thought Gio had clearly the best game. He played passes that led to the two biggest missed chances. He got in the box twice early (admittedly, both times he seemed to try to beat the keeper near side and high instead of playing the percentage and pulling back). He had some turnovers, but he also had a lot of successful dribbles.
This is the first game where I did thing that Turner's distribution might have hurt the team a bit. Not so much the mistake that lead to the corner, as that's a one-off thing. But after that, Turner played it very safe and huffed a bunch of backpasses upfield when he was under only moderate, one-man, pressure.
In all, I'd rate this performance a 6 considering the circumstances. That's a hell of a lot better than the first games of the last two final qualifying cycles.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
let me talk through it.
GK: No reason to not start Turner again, but I guess if GGG is concerned about his having a yip every game, we could go with Horvath. As good as Turner is, you have to think that Yip with his feet is going to cost a goal some where down the line.
RB: Has to be Dest assuming Yedlin is hurt. I know GGG loves Dest on the left but it never looks correct to me as the players all seem to get in each others line of space.
LB: Robinson seems an easy choice here and then let Bello sub in after Antonee runs himself into the ground chasing either Buchanan and/or Davies
CB: Brooks is a lock to start, which means Ream sits. Miles is said to be a fitness freak and in incredible shape. I would go with the hot hand here and stick with Miles. He can easily handle either Larin or David. If we go 3 in the back, Sands will start in the middle of Brooks and Miles.
DM: I think Acosta will start here and then Adams will sub in. This will help Adams not have to go 90 minutes in three quick games. Also, both Acosta and Adams will likely be the emergency RB's if Yedlin is hurt enough to not play.
CM: This one is tough. I guess maybe Lletget and Gio start and then sub Gio out with Weston later, to help limit some minutes. If we go three at the back, we can also save some minutes at this spot.
Wings: Pulisic (if ready) and Aaronson. Konrad subs in for whim ever needs it.
Striker: Like Ream and Lletget, GGG clearly has a soft spot for Sargent, so another start would not surprise me. I really want to see Pepi get some minutes though in this game. I can't figure out if I like or dislike Pefok. In one minute my mind will be like "ok there is something here" and in the next I think "jesus he is limited"
GK: No reason to not start Turner again, but I guess if GGG is concerned about his having a yip every game, we could go with Horvath. As good as Turner is, you have to think that Yip with his feet is going to cost a goal some where down the line.
RB: Has to be Dest assuming Yedlin is hurt. I know GGG loves Dest on the left but it never looks correct to me as the players all seem to get in each others line of space.
LB: Robinson seems an easy choice here and then let Bello sub in after Antonee runs himself into the ground chasing either Buchanan and/or Davies
CB: Brooks is a lock to start, which means Ream sits. Miles is said to be a fitness freak and in incredible shape. I would go with the hot hand here and stick with Miles. He can easily handle either Larin or David. If we go 3 in the back, Sands will start in the middle of Brooks and Miles.
DM: I think Acosta will start here and then Adams will sub in. This will help Adams not have to go 90 minutes in three quick games. Also, both Acosta and Adams will likely be the emergency RB's if Yedlin is hurt enough to not play.
CM: This one is tough. I guess maybe Lletget and Gio start and then sub Gio out with Weston later, to help limit some minutes. If we go three at the back, we can also save some minutes at this spot.
Wings: Pulisic (if ready) and Aaronson. Konrad subs in for whim ever needs it.
Striker: Like Ream and Lletget, GGG clearly has a soft spot for Sargent, so another start would not surprise me. I really want to see Pepi get some minutes though in this game. I can't figure out if I like or dislike Pefok. In one minute my mind will be like "ok there is something here" and in the next I think "jesus he is limited"
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Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
I suppose I should also say something about Sargent. Last night was the whole Josh Sargent experience. You watch him and he seems to have plenty of moments where he does pretty good soccer things. He presses well, for the most part. He can make a nice turn or hold up play. Not at the level of a Benzema or even a fit on-form Jozy, but it's not a weakness to his game. He isn't terribly turnover prone. And you're always left feeling that he didn't get much more than half-chances to work with and that he could maybe have been a bit luckier with those half-chances. And that's happened so much at a bad team like Bremen, that it's easy to con yourself into believing that more goals have to be in him.
And maybe there are. I honestly don't know. But I kind of feel that goal scorers just find a way more often. Maybe they take more chances. Tutul Rahman posted some MLS analysis this week on finishing. And the results were interesting, if not surprising. There are a few guys who seem to significantly underperform Xg (like Fanendo Adi) and a few guys who seem to overperform (like Cyle Larin), but for the vast majority of players, finishing percentage is just a very small predictor of goals. Good scorers are scorers who consistently get good chances. And for whatever reason, maybe all the time he gets shunted to the wing, Sargent just doesn't consistently get good looks. And maybe Pepi will, even if he won't do all the other good soccer things that Sargent does better.
And maybe there are. I honestly don't know. But I kind of feel that goal scorers just find a way more often. Maybe they take more chances. Tutul Rahman posted some MLS analysis this week on finishing. And the results were interesting, if not surprising. There are a few guys who seem to significantly underperform Xg (like Fanendo Adi) and a few guys who seem to overperform (like Cyle Larin), but for the vast majority of players, finishing percentage is just a very small predictor of goals. Good scorers are scorers who consistently get good chances. And for whatever reason, maybe all the time he gets shunted to the wing, Sargent just doesn't consistently get good looks. And maybe Pepi will, even if he won't do all the other good soccer things that Sargent does better.
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
Those are some really interesting stats from Connelly.
The section on how the US seemed intent on not wanting to be pressured is what many noticed last night with the constant long clearances from all 4 defenders and Turner.
I know every one lives in fear over giving the ball away in the attacking 3rd but we have to find some balance of playing it out of the back.
I feel like if the environment effected any part of the play last night, it was in this area.
The section on how the US seemed intent on not wanting to be pressured is what many noticed last night with the constant long clearances from all 4 defenders and Turner.
I know every one lives in fear over giving the ball away in the attacking 3rd but we have to find some balance of playing it out of the back.
I feel like if the environment effected any part of the play last night, it was in this area.
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Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
Quoted for agreement -- feel like we watched the same game.
Sargent really is an interesting case. It's not like he's missing easy chances, mostly. The spinning chest-trap volley attempt would have been a worldie if it'd come off. But he did have a good look on the cushioned header from McKennie and... it ended up looking a lot like all those half-chances do. I think I'd try Pefok against Canada.
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
Just off the cuff I don't think the US were any more dangerous than ELS last night. We noticed early their keeper seemed shaky and unusually small - but he was never troubled, never questioned for anything other than a couple routine saves.
As for Sargent, I haven't seen him play much until this summer. I don't generally watch friendlies and didn't see any of his games in the BL. I have that sinking feeling with him that I've had a few times over the years with my club team - when you have a #9 that everyone makes excuses for using terms like "work rate" "good runs" "pressing" "creating chances" etc. - that gets old very fast. None of that stuff matters if he's not scoring goals. At the same time, none of that stuff matters if he's scoring goals. No one cares about a #9 pressing the backline, passing, running, etc. if he's banging in goals.
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
OTOH, if clearing those balls keeps you from giving up any chances and you generate 1.7xg you're going to win a lot of games. Avoiding the big mistakes on the road might not be a bad strategy for this team. If you get to 0-0 or 1-0 in every away match you've had a great cycle.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
Check out the stat on the lower left hand corner. That can't be right.....does "handball" indicate something else like a throw in?
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
I think starting Yedlin also is a factor. And DeAndre was mostly fine to the extent that he did what he was asked to do last night. He even made some nice early contributions on offense. But he will always be a liability in build-up. Both in terms of his passing range and reliability (both well below average, IMO) and in his skill in presenting himself as an option. This is kind of a chicken/egg thing because I think other players are often reluctant to play it to him, but I also think he's not very good at finding space and presenting options.
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
One positive takeaway for me was confirmation that CBS has a great product. The Abdo team was fantastic pregame, HT and post-game. I expect there's some discussion of Gooch going after Davies multiple times last night, with Kate and Deuce playing the calm mediator roles. They created some good tension, even if we all know its not real. The live commentary team was somewhat weak (not terrible), but the studio group was A+ and really the first time in a long time I've paused to listen to what the studio guys are saying.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
Agreed.
We are looking for, on average, ~1.7 points a game. That will get us to 24 points for the cycle and an excellent chance to be top three based on historical results.
To keep the 1.7 average, we need at least 5 points this window. If we can achieve that with two away games, that would be a solid, yet unspectacular, start to qualifying.
I don't think we can overstate how important 3 points are against Canada even this early in qualifying.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
I thought the lead commentator had a really rough game last night. I know they were calling the game from a studio and with the poor camera angle things were difficult but he mixed up a ton of names on the ball and got confused in his notes a few times on where players played at the club level.
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
Gooch and Beasley and a third guy have a Youtube thing with some great guests (Klinsmann, Pulisic, Dempsey, McKennie, Clint Mathis, etc) that is really well done. It's smart and fun.
ETA: The Crack Podcast
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Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
I like the studio show fine, but I thought the actual broadcasting team was pretty subpar. The play-by-play guy was often just wrong about very basic things happening on the field. Maybe because he was watching on a small monitor or something. And I didn't think Edu (who I've liked in studio roles) really offered much insight either. I think Fox's team of Strong and Holden is genuinely quite good and normally don't mind Taylor and whatever Brit they pair him with as much as most people. I respect that CBS is trying to do better with Hispanics even on the English language feeds, but maybe just drop a dumptruck of money at Seb Salazar and Herc or even Max Bretos.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
Last night I mentioned we want Mexico to take max points in all their games. But that was more meant to say all their home games. We definitely don't want Mexico dropping any home points unless it is to us. Any draws Mexico picks up on the road are very good for the US as well.
Ned
Footballguy
Alex Roldan turned him inside out at one point. Not sure if Dest would've fared any better, but it was
I wish they could afford to send the broadcast team to the site.
It felt like they were broadcasting from a studio - and could only comment on what came across the feed. On site broadcasters tend to have a better sense of what is going on.
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
I'm swimming against the tide, but the studio team spends too much time yukking it up and not enough on real info for me. I mean the FOX NFL team goofs around a lot but includes two HOF coaches who also add a lot of insight. The CBS soccer team is like having six Terry Bradshaws sometimes.
ChiefD
Footballguy
The more I think about that game the more it irritates me:
The video quality.
The studio team was awful I thought. A runway segment about their shoes? WTF?
The team performance. USA should have won that game. No question.
The fireworks going off in the background the first 15 minutes.
The video quality.
The studio team was awful I thought. A runway segment about their shoes? WTF?
The team performance. USA should have won that game. No question.
The fireworks going off in the background the first 15 minutes.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
I think they are more trying to imitate the style of the TNT basketball group (Barkley, Shaq, and Kenny Smith)
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
That was so annoying how long they lasted....
None of the players would ever likely admit it but I do wonder about how much the atmosphere effects them. We don't see guns here in the US much at all, but in ELS they seem so prevalent. The players having to be protected by a ton of riot gear level police every time they stepped into the open has to be unnerving the first time you see it, especially how young our team is. Gio looked freaked out in the corner when he tried to take ck's, always looking over his shoulder.
BeTheMatch
Footballguy
ChiefD
Footballguy
Maybe. But I think it just comes across awful. The whole time these guys are trying to talk smack to each other and it comes across as mean and nasty. At least on TNT you can tell the guys genuinely like each other and it seems more good natured ribbing.
The guys on that pre-game show seem like a bunch of #####.
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
Just to be fair, CBS had nothing to do with the feed. The feed comes from the host country.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
This is a fairly good analogy from Sciaretta.
=============
Almost all the players on the U.S. team have never played a CONCACAF game on the road. While expectations among fans were that this team had the quality to dominate on the road, this was never going to be the case. These games are simply different – even when there is a wide talent gap between the two teams. It’s not unlike cup games in Europe, when a top division team has to go on the road to an energized lower-division team and the result ends even.
=============
Almost all the players on the U.S. team have never played a CONCACAF game on the road. While expectations among fans were that this team had the quality to dominate on the road, this was never going to be the case. These games are simply different – even when there is a wide talent gap between the two teams. It’s not unlike cup games in Europe, when a top division team has to go on the road to an energized lower-division team and the result ends even.
BeTheMatch
Footballguy
When it first started and showed that all 22 look from behind the net, I honestly thought that was going to be it for the whole game. Like we were watching some sort of surveillance video.
gianmarco
Footballguy
This is perfect and sums it up so well. I think it's why he has people that understand why he's out there and others that want to move on. And both have valid points.
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
Reading Roger Gonzalez this morning is rough. He is ripping the team to shreds. He is the most negative I have seen. I hope his views are more wrong than right.
Sammy3469
Footballguy
I'm sorry that's not a positive. I'll say it again, Mexico (Tata) has shown how to attack this 4-3-3 setup in a manner that limits US possession especially when we have an exploitable side of the pitch. GGG has to decide if an adjustment is needed or if we are OK with the ragged matches where effectively our best chances end up coming from small side direct counters given our attackers talent level. That would seem to be good for us long-term, but its also obvious Mexico and ELS made the calculation our 9 can't hurt them in these counters (this is effectively saying one of the wingers or Pepi is going to need to play up top as neither Sargent, Pefok, nor Zardes are really the answer if we being forced to go that direct).
So effectively GGG has to decide if he wants to be direct or not, but can't put half measure teams trying to do both out there.
Other thoughts from last night:
- One big plus from yesterday is that Aaronson seemed like the only guy that was really gassed.
- Dest on the left simply hasn't worked for us. Keep him on the right. Let that be our "cute" side with him, Gio, and Weston.
- I did think Weston had a good match.
- Konrad is a more than capable LW option and I would like to see him with more traditional MF on his side.
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