USA Shootings (3 Viewers)

[Henry Ford]

You figured wrong. And probably didn't take the time to understand my opinion on the subject. It's why SC and I don't necessarily see things the same, even though the lazy here want to lump us together. (when I do that, and lump together the anti gun crowd, I'm raked over the coals)

I don't see a need to protect myself or family outside my home. Even then, I see it as a very small need. 95% of my guns were purchased for hunting. Nothing more. Probably the same reason I don't own an AR. I don't have anything I would hunt with one. 

I'm not "lumping you together" with SC.  I don't think a CCW permit is really that big a deal to have - really just an impetus to qualify with your handgun on a regular basis for many people.

 

[KCitons]

Oh FFS...another, yeah but what about drinking comment?

Thats a disgusting response to almost 1200 kids dying in a year due to gun violence.

I could say the same to you about your response to 4300 kids dying each year due to alcohol. Funny how that works. 

of course it is, but that's when you get when people just repeat NRA talking points.  spin the wheel, spit out some propaganda.  It could just as easily have been "why aren't you trying to regulate handguns,"   "gun control didn't stop gun violence in Chicago," or "criminals don't obey laws so we don't need more laws."   

I don't belong to the NRA. I develop my own opinions. 

 

[KCitons]

I'm not "lumping you together" with SC.  I don't think a CCW permit is really that big a deal to have - really just an impetus to qualify with your handgun on a regular basis for many people.

I think it leads to stupid actions.

Here's one example from yesterday.

This was an aggressive act by someone that shouldn't be allowed to carry a gun. A CCW is for protecting yourself or innocent people in danger. Not for using it to enforce your opinion. 

 

[Hawkeye21]

There's also a suicide thread. Please be sure to direct posters there the next time suicide is mentioned in this thread. 

I said the deaths of children from guns is a sad number. So is the deaths of kids from alcohol. 1147 vs 4300 annually. Do you think the people on this forum, or in society, care or are outraged 4 times as much over one than the other?

That's quite a bit different.  The suicide thread is about dealing with depression and suicide.  The talk of suicide in this thread is directly related to guns.  I don't know why you and Stealthy feel you have to do this.

 

[Stealthycat]

This is bad form

not meant to be, just honest

our society doesn't place high value on human life. we allow 850,000 unborns to be killed every year in the womb. We don't care about 500,000 smokers dying or the 30,000 non-smokers dying of smoking related diseases. We don't care much about obesity and the deaths from that or prescription drugs or auto deaths

if we did we'd really focus on those things and try to stop them 

 

[Stealthycat]

That's quite a bit different.  The suicide thread is about dealing with depression and suicide.  The talk of suicide in this thread is directly related to guns.  I don't know why you and Stealthy feel you have to do this.

so where guns are hard to get there is no suicide - is this true ?

 

[Stealthycat]

Guns killed all of those kids.

100% false

inanimate objects do not "kill" anybody ... people using objects kill

 

[KCitons]

That's quite a bit different.  The suicide thread is about dealing with depression and suicide.  The talk of suicide in this thread is directly related to guns.  I don't know why you and Stealthy feel you have to do this.

The talk of guns in this thread is directly related to deaths. More specifically, death of children. @Fish post about the number kids killed in the last year is relevant. So is the number of kids killed by alcohol. Can you really deny that society is less outraged by 4x as many kids dying due to alcohol than guns? 

 

[Hawkeye21]

so where guns are hard to get there is no suicide - is this true ?

Do you honestly want to have this conversation?  I think you know the answer to these silly questions.

 

[Stealthycat]

I think it leads to stupid actions.

Here's one example from yesterday.

This was an aggressive act by someone that shouldn't be allowed to carry a gun. A CCW is for protecting yourself or innocent people in danger. Not for using it to enforce your opinion. 

did that attacked have a concealed weapons permit ?

 

[Hawkeye21]

The talk of guns in this thread is directly related to deaths. More specifically, death of children. @Fish post about the number kids killed in the last year is relevant. So is the number of kids killed by alcohol. Can you really deny that society is less outraged by 4x as many kids dying due to alcohol than guns? 

I think more people are against kids dying due to alcohol since it's pretty unanimous that everyone is against it.  You don't see as many heated debates about it because almost everyone agrees on it.  The only thing left to talk about with alcohol related deaths is how to keep lowering them.

Far more people disagree on the usage and amount of guns in the US.  That's why it's a bigger debate.

 

[Stealthycat]

Do you honestly want to have this conversation?  I think you know the answer to these silly questions.

yes 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-new-brain/201607/fact-check-gun-control-and-suicide

KCitons mentioned countries before that are high gun control ... and high suicide. The relation isn't there

 

[KCitons]

did that attacked have a concealed weapons permit ?

The guy that pulled the gun on the couple did have a CCW. 

It appear he started the fight, then pulled his weapon. Not my opinion on why someone needs a ccw. 

 

[Henry Ford]

I think it leads to stupid actions.

Here's one example from yesterday.

This was an aggressive act by someone that shouldn't be allowed to carry a gun. A CCW is for protecting yourself or innocent people in danger. Not for using it to enforce your opinion. 

Having a CCW permit doesn't mean you need to carry it with you everywhere you go. Or at all. 

Frankly, I think the requirements for getting a CCW permit should be requirements for owning a gun.

 

[-fish-]

not meant to be, just honest

our society doesn't place high value on human life. we allow 850,000 unborns to be killed every year in the womb. We don't care about 500,000 smokers dying or the 30,000 non-smokers dying of smoking related diseases. We don't care much about obesity and the deaths from that or prescription drugs or auto deaths

if we did we'd really focus on those things and try to stop them 

You realize that smoking and cancer-related smoking deaths are at an all-time low at this point?   How'd we get there?  Regulation and holding manufacturers liable.   It's truly amazing that you will never give up on these false equivalencies, no matter how many times you're proven wrong.

 

[KCitons]

I think more people are against kids dying due to alcohol since it's pretty unanimous that everyone is against it.  You don't see as many heated debates about it because almost everyone agrees on it.  The only thing left to talk about with alcohol related deaths is how to keep lowering them.

Far more people disagree on the usage and amount of guns in the US.  That's why it's a bigger debate.

Do you think gun control will be a big subject in the upcoming elections? Do you think alcohol will?

This is the difference. There are 4x as many kids dying. Talk about "doing nothing"

 

[Henry Ford]

did that attacked have a concealed weapons permit ?

Yes.

Edit: assuming he was the attacker.  Probably best to wait and see what the full story is.  Regardless, he was a jack### before the altercation started.

https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-prime-doesnt-serve-black-areas-2016-4

James Phillips is from Cottontown, Tennessee. He had a concealed carry permit in Tennessee, which has reciprocity with Kentucky.

 

[Stealthycat]

I think more people are against kids dying due to alcohol since it's pretty unanimous that everyone is against it.  You don't see as many heated debates about it because almost everyone agrees on it.  The only thing left to talk about with alcohol related deaths is how to keep lowering them.

Far more people disagree on the usage and amount of guns in the US.  That's why it's a bigger debate.

everyone wants people to stop violence and murdering too Hawkeye21 - I don't know a single person that doesn't want to stop violent crime and I don't know anyone who doesn't want DWI's to stop

the difference is the solution to one is just accept the deaths and where we are at on it, on the other its a ban/high restriction to stop. 

why are both treated SO differently ?

 

[KCitons]

Having a CCW permit doesn't mean you need to carry it with you everywhere you go. Or at all. 

Frankly, I think the requirements for getting a CCW permit should be requirements for owning a gun.

This is a fair statement. I'm looking at it from the standpoint of road rage or bar fights that turn deadly due to someone have a ccw. 

 

[Hawkeye21]

yes 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-new-brain/201607/fact-check-gun-control-and-suicide

KCitons mentioned countries before that are high gun control ... and high suicide. The relation isn't there

Guns do not have much of a direct relation to depression which can lead to suicide.  It doesn't make much sense in trying to find any relationship.

Where guns come into play is how incredibly easy and successful it makes suicide.  Rarely is there a second chance.  The chances of surviving a suicide attempt are greater if a gun is not involved.  This is not new info and it does not require anyone to be a scientist to figure out.

 

[Henry Ford]

This is a fair statement. I'm looking at it from the standpoint of road rage or bar fights that turn deadly due to someone have a ccw. 

There should never be guns in bars, and certainly never guns when people are drinking.  I know AZ allows guns in bars, but it should never be allowed in my opinion.

As far as road rage, lots of states out there (including mine) where you don't need a CCW to have a gun in your car.

Edit: but yeah, I don't disagree that the presence of guns makes this go badly quite often.

 

[KCitons]

Guns do not have much of a direct relation to depression which can lead to suicide.  It doesn't make much sense in trying to find any relationship.

Where guns come into play is how incredibly easy and successful it makes suicide.  Rarely is there a second chance.  The chances of surviving a suicide attempt are greater if a gun is not involved.  This is not new info and it does not require anyone to be a scientist to figure out.

I already covered this. If a woman has the right to control her body when it comes to abortion, then a person has the right to control their body when it comes to suicide. Banning or regulating guns removes the most effective method for them.

 

[Stealthycat]

Yes.

https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-prime-doesnt-serve-black-areas-2016-4

I see that now in other articles 

https://www.wnky.com/man-accused-of-pulling-gun-on-couple-wearing-maga-hats/

He broke the law, he broke the rules of carrying concealed and he needs heavily punished for it. 

 

[Hawkeye21]

Do you think gun control will be a big subject in the upcoming elections? Do you think alcohol will?

This is the difference. There are 4x as many kids dying. Talk about "doing nothing"

I'm not sure why you aren't comprehending what I'm saying.  Why would it be a big subject when all of America agrees on it and are working towards improvements all the time?  There isn't much of a debate over it, we all want fewer alcohol related deaths.

 

[KCitons]

There should never be guns in bars, and certainly never guns when people are drinking.  I know AZ allows guns in bars, but it should never be allowed in my opinion.

As far as road rage, lots of states out there (including mine) where you don't need a CCW to have a gun in your car.

Beer muscles or gun muscles. Neither is an effective tool when dealing with a non lethal confrontation 

 

[KCitons]

I'm not sure why you aren't comprehending what I'm saying.  Why would it be a big subject when all of America agrees on it and are working towards improvements all the time?  There isn't much of a debate over it, we all want fewer alcohol related deaths.

Are we succeeding? 

 

[Stealthycat]

Where guns come into play is how incredibly easy and successful it makes suicide.  Rarely is there a second chance.  The chances of surviving a suicide attempt are greater if a gun is not involved.  This is not new info and it does not require anyone to be a scientist to figure out.

all true

so again, how does it happen that so many countries that have gun control also have high suicide rates ?

those people who need help find a way to kill themselves - the way they choose IS NOT THE PROBLEM 

 

[Hawkeye21]

everyone wants people to stop violence and murdering too Hawkeye21 - I don't know a single person that doesn't want to stop violent crime and I don't know anyone who doesn't want DWI's to stop

the difference is the solution to one is just accept the deaths and where we are at on it, on the other its a ban/high restriction to stop. 

why are both treated SO differently ?

I feel like I'm in Bizarro World with this ridiculous conversation.  The lack of common sense here is staggering.

 

[Hawkeye21]

Are we succeeding? 

I feel improvements are being made all the time.  Are we not succeeding?  I don't see it getting worse.

 

[Henry Ford]

Are we succeeding? 

We are, actually. Finally in the last decade or so.

 

[Hawkeye21]

all true

so again, how does it happen that so many countries that have gun control also have high suicide rates ?

those people who need help find a way to kill themselves - the way they choose IS NOT THE PROBLEM 

I'd like to see you prove this.  The data I've seen shows that suicides are far more successful when a gun is used compared to anything else.  Data also shows that those who fail at suicide are far more unlikely to try it again.  Having a second chance is a HUGE deal when it comes to attempted suicide and guns rarely offer that second chance.

 

[-fish-]

100% false

inanimate objects do not "kill" anybody ... people using objects kill

Guns kill people.   Every day.   I know you worship guns and the NRA and you live in a bizarre paranoid fantasy world, but rational people understand this.   

 

[-fish-]

I'd like to see you prove this.  The data I've seen shows that suicides are far more successful when a gun is used compared to anything else.  Data also shows that those who fail at suicide are far more unlikely to try it again.  Having a second chance is a HUGE deal when it comes to attempted suicide and guns rarely offer that second chance.

we've been through this.  he's seen the statistics.  

 

[pbandy1]

Just checking up on this thread guys so sorry if this has all been beaten to death already.

On the recent Aurora shooting, sounds like a failure on ISP as well as Aurora PD (moreso ISP).

The troopers on ISP are awesome, often working 99 on the highways, especially the Chicago highways where car chases often end up from the West and South sides. But their administrative structure has some problems.

Martin being able to get a FOID card without any fingerprints is an issue. The fact that they checked in-state records only and failed to find the 1990s Mississippi felony conviction is an even bigger problem. It is my understanding that you have to pass a NICS federal background check to get a FOID, was this not the case in 2014?

Further, Aurora PD should have executed a search warrant on Martin's residence to retrieve said gun once Martin failed his CCL application, but they aren't required to do that by law. Also, the chance of that gun being in Martin's car, or girl's/friend's house are high. From the Chicago Tribune, ISP issued over 10,000 FOID revocations in 2018 - that is a LOT, and chances are most of these guns aren't being turned in because most of these guys are, you know, felons. So saying Aurora PD 'should have' executed a search warrant on Martin in 2014 or 2015... well, that all just sounds like hindsight. He was not any more special than any other illegal gun owner at the time, considering there are a bunch of idiots running around with guns in Chicago and its outer suburbs.

 

[derek245583]

I'd like to see you prove this.  The data I've seen shows that suicides are far more successful when a gun is used compared to anything else.  Data also shows that those who fail at suicide are far more unlikely to try it again.  Having a second chance is a HUGE deal when it comes to attempted suicide and guns rarely offer that second chance.

Aren't suicides something like...if you really wanna do it you do it, if you fail you just took half measures as a way of crying out for help?

Not even remotely close to qualified to speak on it, but I am sure I read that somewhere.

 

[Dedfin]

Aren't suicides something like...if you really wanna do it you do it, if you fail you just took half measures as a way of crying out for help?

Not even remotely close to qualified to speak on it, but I am sure I read that somewhere.

No

 

[KCitons]

We are, actually. Finally in the last decade or so.

Based on what I have read, we made strides for a few decades. At least when it comes to DUI's. That's stagnated as of late.

I can't find alcohol related deaths by year over the last decade. But there are lots of articles comparing alcohol to other things that would appear much worse.

 

[KCitons]

Guns kill people.   Every day.   I know you worship guns and the NRA and you live in a bizarre paranoid fantasy world, but rational people understand this.   

Alcohol kills people. Every day. 

 

[dkp993]

I feel like I'm in Bizarro World with this ridiculous conversation.  The lack of common sense here is staggering.

Welcome to the USA shooting thread.  Please grab a name tag and head on inside. Refreshments are on the right. 

 

[Henry Ford]

Based on what I have read, we made strides for a few decades. At least when it comes to DUI's. That's stagnated as of late.

I can't find alcohol related deaths by year over the last decade. But there are lots of articles comparing alcohol to other things that would appear much worse.

About 2007 or 2008 alcohol related driving fatalities started dropping. Until then it was a pretty steady climb. 

 

[Henry Ford]

Aren't suicides something like...if you really wanna do it you do it, if you fail you just took half measures as a way of crying out for help?

Not even remotely close to qualified to speak on it, but I am sure I read that somewhere.

That’s a myth. 

People have survived after jumping from the Golden Gate Bridge. They meant it. 

 

[KCitons]

About 2007 or 2008 alcohol related driving fatalities started dropping. Until then it was a pretty steady climb. 

Right. And they reached 10k per year. Where it's stayed the last few years. 

 

[derek245583]

That’s a myth. 

People have survived after jumping from the Golden Gate Bridge. They meant it. 

Just read a couple things on it. Sounds like I misunderstood

 

[Hawkeye21]

Aren't suicides something like...if you really wanna do it you do it, if you fail you just took half measures as a way of crying out for help?

Not even remotely close to qualified to speak on it, but I am sure I read that somewhere.

I'm not sure.  Maybe it's just a cry for help for some people.  I'm not an expert on it but I have seen the data on suicides with guns compared to other ways and guns rarely offer a second chance.

 

[abbottjamesr]

I'd like to see you prove this.  The data I've seen shows that suicides are far more successful when a gun is used compared to anything else.  Data also shows that those who fail at suicide are far more unlikely to try it again.  Having a second chance is a HUGE deal when it comes to attempted suicide and guns rarely offer that second chance.

We went through this before on this thread I think, but it was a while ago.  Per wikipedia the US ranks 34th in suicide rate compared to other countries.  Most of the countries with higher rates have very restrictive gun laws.  Countries of note that are higher than the US: Russia(3), South Korea(10), Ukraine(14), India(19), Belgium(22), Japan(30), Finland(32).

I'm not sure there is a correlation between suicide rate and gun laws.

 

[KarmaPolice]

We went through this before on this thread I think, but it was a while ago.  Per wikipedia the US ranks 34th in suicide rate compared to other countries.  Most of the countries with higher rates have very restrictive gun laws.  Countries of note that are higher than the US: Russia(3), South Korea(10), Ukraine(14), India(19), Belgium(22), Japan(30), Finland(32).

I'm not sure there is a correlation between suicide rate and gun laws.

Is this % of population, or just # of suicide deaths?;

Should we also be looking at success rate between these different countries too?

 

[Hawkeye21]

We went through this before on this thread I think, but it was a while ago.  Per wikipedia the US ranks 34th in suicide rate compared to other countries.  Most of the countries with higher rates have very restrictive gun laws.  Countries of note that are higher than the US: Russia(3), South Korea(10), Ukraine(14), India(19), Belgium(22), Japan(30), Finland(32).

I'm not sure there is a correlation between suicide rate and gun laws.

I don't know how guns would relate to it.  I would look at their living conditions, climate, freedoms and so on.

 

[abbottjamesr]

Is this % of population, or just # of suicide deaths?;

Should we also be looking at success rate between these different countries too?

Its based on number per 100,000 people.

I can see if there is any success rate info.

 

[KarmaPolice]

I feel like I'm in Bizarro World with this ridiculous conversation.  The lack of common sense here is staggering.

Especially when I couldn't think of a person in the other thread that wasn't for harsher laws and regulations for that topic.  

 

[KarmaPolice]

Its based on number per 100,000 people.

I can see if there is any success rate info.

Thanks.  I assumed that would be the measurement.