msommer
Footballguy
Welcome to this thread, I'd recommend reading it from the first post to the last. It may change your opinionI don't think many people advocate for do nothing.
Welcome to this thread, I'd recommend reading it from the first post to the last. It may change your opinionI don't think many people advocate for do nothing.
Certainly. That's why you train though.And fortunate that nobody shot an innocent person by mistake.
As opposed to shooting an innocent person on purpose?Apple Jack said:And fortunate that nobody shot an innocent person by mistake.
Ha!As opposed to shooting an innocent person on purpose?
I think it's too early to know if any of the victims were hit by friendly fire.
machine gun? really ?Choke said:Its tremendous that he did not have an assault rifle/machine-gun. Phenomenally better outcome for everyone involved.
And having a former officer of the law who has likely been thoroughly vetted and trained during his life, as an officer on hand, was a tremendous boon.
A problem is we will never have the perfect bill. As a society we will never agree on what to do and neither can politicians. The question in politics often is whether to support an imperfect bill rather than keep punting down the road.jm192 said:I don't agree with "hurry up and do SOMETHING." Let's get it right. It's a tremendous undertaking on both sides of the coin.
I feel that we agreed to an imperfect solution with the ACA and patted ourselves on the back. We finally did something. And the middle class have suffered ever since. There are repercussions from an imperfect bill. So it's not as simple as "let's stop putting it off and try this."A problem is we will never have the perfect bill. As a society we will never agree on what to do and neither can politicians. The question in politics often is whether to support an imperfect bill rather than keep punting down the road.
I, for one, would like to see an imperfect bill agreed to.
The bolded sentence is outrageously hyperbolic.I feel that we agreed to an imperfect solution with the ACA and patted ourselves on the back. We finally did something. And the middle class have suffered ever since. There are repercussions from an imperfect bill. So it's not as simple as "let's stop putting it off and try this."
Hurry up? This has been an issue for a long tome. There has been no hurry which is part of the problem.jm192 said:I don't think many people advocate for do nothing. Poorly planned solutions lead to poor outcomes. We should make sure when we make a law, it's effective and has little impact on the rights of law abiding citizens.
I don't agree with "hurry up and do SOMETHING." Let's get it right. It's a tremendous undertaking on both sides of the coin.
Haha. I'll give you that.msommer said:Welcome to this thread, I'd recommend reading it from the first post to the last. It may change your opinion
Same to youThe bolded sentence is outrageously hyperbolic.
I wish you a happy New Year.
I just saw the video a few minutes ago. I think the odds that one of the victims was hit by friendly fire is pretty slim. But, I only see the shooter firing one shot from a shotgun. Two killed and at least one other critically injured? That's a pretty effective shot to kill ratio. (Just wanted to point this out for those that think assault weapons are the only gun that can kill a large number of people in a short amount of time)Ha!
Law abiding armed citizens prevent a shooting from turning into a massacre--but "Well, there could have been friendly fire. We don't know yet. There's no way to say that those 2 people wouldn't be alive if the armed church goers didn't have guns" C'mon.
I'm not talking about a single what if.I just saw the video a few minutes ago. I think the odds that one of the victims was hit by friendly fire is pretty slim. But, I only see the shooter firing one shot from a shotgun. Two killed and at least one other critically injured? That's a pretty effective shot to kill ratio. (Just wanted to point this out for those that think assault weapons are the only gun that can kill a large number of people in a short amount of time)
I also see the armed citizen fire over parishioners to neutralize the shooter. There was a chance for someone to be hit by friendly fire. Reports are that there were multiple armed citizens that fired. But, I don't see that from the video. Even so, having 3-4 people in a church environment shooting has a high probability of crossfire and innocent people being caught between. The only way to know for certain how a victim died, is for ballistic forensics. Not enough time has passed. .You can argue what if's all you want. I'm just pointing out facts.
Armed church goers did stop the shooter. Please show me where I said anything different?I'm not talking about a single what if.
Armed church goers stopped the shooter. That's a fact. If anything is a "what if," it's your "can't rule out crossfire."
Is the chance of an innocent person being hit in a cross fire higher than the chance that they're shot by an unabated shooter?
I'd like to learn more about all of these reports of innocent people being caught in the crossfire.Armed church goers did stop the shooter. Please show me where I said anything different?
Also, please link to any official report that verifies that only the shooter was hit by bullets from those armed church goers? You can't.
We are seeing more and more reports of innocent people being caught in crossfire during these shooting incidents. Those are facts you can't refute.
Go ahead and have the last word. I won't respond.
Have a nice day.
I guess I'm struggling with the take away being "What about the people that could have been hit by the church goers." I think it's a safe assumption the bad guy was here to hurt as many people as he could. While tragic if anyone is hit in the cross fire, do we just leave innocent people unarmed and hope for the best?
Three people dead on the floor including the shooter. More injured. And this is the success stroy.The General said:Guy with a bunch of guns walks into a church that has armed guards and gets shot by people attending a service who are also packing. What a country.
Maybe go back and reread the conversation. Paying particular to my comments with the original poster. You're making a lot of assumptions about my comments, taking the minimal amount of time to listen in order to respond. Slow down. Let it percolate.I guess I'm struggling with the take away being "What about the people that could have been hit by the church goers." I think it's a safe assumption the bad guy was here to hurt as many people as he could. While tragic if anyone is hit in the cross fire, do we just leave innocent people unarmed and hope for the best?
exactly...i'm sure the families of the dead people are happy that the guy was shot after he killed their loved ones instead of just not having a gun at allThree people dead on the floor including the shooter. More injured. And this is the success stroy.
Good thing there were law abiding citizens packing heat there huh?Shooting :
UPDATE
West Freeway Church of Christ in Fort Worth.
• TWO dead
• three critical
• one suspect in custody <unconfirmed>
https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2019/12/29/2-dead-1-critically-injured-shooting-white-settlement-church/
I don't think he read the articleStealthycat said:how do you feel about that ?
This is the type of post from someone living is some sort of fantasy world where every psycho and criminal will all of a sudden turn in their guns when told to.exactly...i'm sure the families of the dead people are happy that the guy was shot after he killed their loved ones instead of just not having a gun at all
Since criminals will always have access to guns even if guns are outlawed, you don't have a logical or even remotely possible solution to fix that so what's your point?Armed church goers did stop the shooter. Please show me where I said anything different?
Also, please link to any official report that verifies that only the shooter was hit by bullets from those armed church goers? You can't.
We are seeing more and more reports of innocent people being caught in crossfire during these shooting incidents. Those are facts you can't refute.
Go ahead and have the last word. I won't respond.
Have a nice day.
you know every psycho and criminal doesn't have access to ar-15s in pretty much every other first world country in the worldThis is the type of post from someone living is some sort of fantasy world where every psycho and criminal will all of a sudden turn in their guns when told to.
the answer is so obvious it's amazing it flies right over their headThen why aren't they using machine guns, hand grenades and bazookas?
Mass shooting avertedThree people dead on the floor including the shooter. More injured. And this is the success stroy.
The citizens who were inside that church undoubtedly saved 242 other parishioners," Regional Director of Texas Department of Public Safety Jeoff Williams told reporters Sunday night. The men were two of multiple members of the church security team who responded to the gunman, identified as Keith Thomas Kinnunen. However, Paxton said the head of security, Jack Wilson, was the only person who shot at Kinnunen, and he fired just once. The shot killed the gunman.
Since criminals will always have access to guns even if guns are outlawed, you don't have a logical or even remotely possible solution to fix that so what's your point?
Armed church goers did stop the shooter. Please show me where I said anything different?
Also, please link to any official report that verifies that only the shooter was hit by bullets from those armed church goers? You can't.
We are seeing more and more reports of innocent people being caught in crossfire during these shooting incidents. Those are facts you can't refute.
Go ahead and have the last word. I won't respond.
Have a nice day.
Was there ever a time in history where there were 5 million legal bazookas held by the general public? Apples - Oranges.Then why aren't they using machine guns, hand grenades and bazookas?
Great you’re 1 for 17 or whatever. I mean the guys courage and skill is amazing. Wonderful more people weren’t killed. But....the numbers are.... bad.Mass shooting averted
Wat? I'm 0 for 0.Great you’re 1 for 17 or whatever. I mean the guys courage and skill is amazing. Wonderful more people weren’t killed. But....the numbers are.... bad.
Wat? Who could have had machine guns?As if they couldnt have machine guns. Dont be silly.
Start what change? You ok?So start the change.
Zero reason not to... and your excuse is just that.
I don't even own a gun. I'm just being realistic.Every single one (assaults style) you can remove from the system can save lives.
Over time, you make a massive change.
It appears as if you just "love guns" too much. Nothing more or less.
John 11:35.The General said:Guy with a bunch of guns walks into a church that has armed guards and gets shot by people attending a service who are also packing. What a country.
You can try and flap your arms too, but, you aren’t ever going to fly around the room.Sounds like "ITS TOO HARD TO TRY".
That is easy to reject. As every single one removed can make a massive difference.
And ftr, the stigma of being a flat out criminal would alleviate a ton more.
It really is bizarre and sad.Three people dead on the floor including the shooter. More injured. And this is the success stroy.
Of those 1.5 million, more and more are becoming ghost guns. Guns not made by manufacturers. The Saugus High School shooting was perpetrated by a 16 year old with a gun he put together from parts. I know people will say that other countries don't have a problem with ghost guns, but those countries don't have the gun culture that we have. If you take a legal gun away from an American, some of those are going to find a way get it back by ghosting.So lets try. If it saves lives, terrific.
Just the "new" would be a massive improvement. And save American lives. So "flying around the room" would absolutely happen. Your beliefs are not the discussion.
- Estimated 5-10 million already in the U.S. Some say as many as 20.
- There are only 640,00 full-auto machine guns in circulation in America because of the ban, so thats already terrific.
- Every year around 1.5 million new hit American circulation that will NOT land. AWESOME!
80% lowers for $165. This cat is never going back in the bag.Of those 1.5 million, more and more are becoming ghost guns. Guns not made by manufacturers. The Saugus High School shooting was perpetrated by a 16 year old with a gun he put together from parts. I know people will say that other countries don't have a problem with ghost guns, but those countries don't have the gun culture that we have. If you take a legal gun away from an American, some of those are going to find a way get it back by ghosting.
Finish your 3 guns you just bought for $165.That was from manufacturers.
And assuredly we get some machine-guns here illegally too.
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How exactly is one trying to not allow it?Only because people like you are trying not to allow it.
That's not allowing it? That's a rather low bar.Pushing the "Its too hard, it wont work" propaganda.
I'm not trying to do anything but show you what a fools errand it is. I'm guessing you didnt know how easy it is to make an AR15 that doesn't even have a serial number.Only because people like you are trying not to allow it.
False, it isnt illegal.Criminals all, but truth is they wouldn't even be for sale.
How is it not a success story? Do you believe that we'll wake up one day it will magically be zero? I don't.Three people dead on the floor including the shooter. More injured. And this is the success stroy.
Sorry. This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read.Sure, this is about a law(s) getting passed and people arguing to prevent such from being passed.
LOOK AT WHAT YOU QUOTED>>> Only because people like you are trying not to allow it.
They say things like its too hard to try and it will never work.
Isnt illegal means it's legal. Try reading it again.If it isnt legal. It would be illegal.
You are aware that 80% of the country is for universal background checks? Yet here we are.Yes.
Not "magically" though. It would still take some time. But it would happen if everyone was convinced.
We live in a country where we are all free to think and form our own opinions. Those opinions are then entrusted to our representatives to carry out. There is very rarely going to be a topic where 100% of the country agrees. That's why we have a democratic majority to decide the outcome. Gun control is just one of those issues. Not everyone agrees on abortion, death penalty, taxes, etc. We don't need to squash others' opinions in order to accomplish the goals of the majority.1) A poll is just in theory.
2) Everyone. Is Everyone. Not 80%
3) Lobbying and propaganda. (Its too hard!)
48 percent of those surveyed in a Quinnipiac University Poll in 2013 indicated that they believed the government could use background checks to confiscate legally-owned guns.
good questionWont outlaws have those?
Or are they too hard to acquire and too problematic to own?
35,000 dead on the highways each year and we are all comfortable with auto safety and highway safety and the success of all that huh ?Three people dead on the floor including the shooter. More injured. And this is the success stroy.
But how many would be killed as a result of reckless, negligent, or just purely accidental behavior?35,000 dead on the highways each year and we are all comfortable with auto safety and highway safety and the success of all that huh ?
if we could rewind and put good people with guns in all the school shootings, mall shootings, concert shootings etc ......... I wonder how radically different the results of those shootings would be ?
I think we know far, far fewer would have been killed by the evil criminals of the world