Verizon required to give ALL call data to NSA (1 Viewer)

[Slapdash]

NSA also obtains access to data from Internet service providers on Internet use such as data about email or website visits, several former officials said. NSA has established similar relationships with credit-card companies, three former officials said

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324299104578529112289298922.html

No problem with this either, eh Tim?

 

[5 digit know nothing]

Tim your government lies to you. They lie to their allies. They break international treaties. I know this because I have been involved. I have been places we weren't supposed to be, doing things we weren't supposed to do, and you were either told nothing about it or were lied to about it, usually a bit of both. I have helped break international treaties concerning certain weapon systems. I have seen men killed in a place we weren't supposed to be and their deaths tucked into a training exercise thousands of miles away.

Your naivety is kind of nice but it's time to take off the blinders. Governments exist to accrue power and the only curb on that accrual is sunshine. Too much happening in the dark here for anyone to be comfortable with or accepting of it.

OK, Rambo.

 

[humpback]

This certainly does happen. But the idea is that the more you increase free trade, the more consumers you create in each society, and the less tyranny you have over time. I got that from reading F. Hayek in college, a classic libertarian, along with Ludwig Von Mises. I've always believed it, and generally still do. That's why, for me, the promotion of free trade and free markets remains the main key of libertarianism, and it's why I feel comfortable still calling myself a libertarian despite my strong disagreement with many people who claim that title today.

As I have pointed out on numerous occasions, modern day extremists have so misapplied the term "libertarianism", and moved it so far away from what it was back in the 80s when I was involved, that I no longer consider myself one.

 

[Slapdash]

Tim your government lies to you. They lie to their allies. They break international treaties. I know this because I have been involved. I have been places we weren't supposed to be, doing things we weren't supposed to do, and you were either told nothing about it or were lied to about it, usually a bit of both. I have helped break international treaties concerning certain weapon systems. I have seen men killed in a place we weren't supposed to be and their deaths tucked into a training exercise thousands of miles away. Your naivety is kind of nice but it's time to take off the blinders. Governments exist to accrue power and the only curb on that accrual is sunshine. Too much happening in the dark here for anyone to be comfortable with or accepting of it.

OK, Rambo.

Good catch since Tim seems to have deleted it.

 

[5 digit know nothing]

He didn't actually post that.

 

[timschochet]

Tim your government lies to you. They lie to their allies. They break international treaties. I know this because I have been involved. I have been places we weren't supposed to be, doing things we weren't supposed to do, and you were either told nothing about it or were lied to about it, usually a bit of both. I have helped break international treaties concerning certain weapon systems. I have seen men killed in a place we weren't supposed to be and their deaths tucked into a training exercise thousands of miles away. Your naivety is kind of nice but it's time to take off the blinders. Governments exist to accrue power and the only curb on that accrual is sunshine. Too much happening in the dark here for anyone to be comfortable with or accepting of it.

OK, Rambo.

Good catch since Tim seems to have deleted it.

tim never posted it.

 

[timschochet]

This certainly does happen. But the idea is that the more you increase free trade, the more consumers you create in each society, and the less tyranny you have over time. I got that from reading F. Hayek in college, a classic libertarian, along with Ludwig Von Mises. I've always believed it, and generally still do. That's why, for me, the promotion of free trade and free markets remains the main key of libertarianism, and it's why I feel comfortable still calling myself a libertarian despite my strong disagreement with many people who claim that title today.

>As I have pointed out on numerous occasions, modern day extremists have so misapplied the term "libertarianism", and moved it so far away from what it was back in the 80s when I was involved, that I no longer consider myself one.

Sigh. I go back and forth. My views haven't changed, but the terminology has.

 

[Buddy Ball 2K3]

This certainly does happen. But the idea is that the more you increase free trade, the more consumers you create in each society, and the less tyranny you have over time. I got that from reading F. Hayek in college, a classic libertarian, along with Ludwig Von Mises. I've always believed it, and generally still do. That's why, for me, the promotion of free trade and free markets remains the main key of libertarianism, and it's why I feel comfortable still calling myself a libertarian despite my strong disagreement with many people who claim that title today.

>As I have pointed out on numerous occasions, modern day extremists have so misapplied the term "libertarianism", and moved it so far away from what it was back in the 80s when I was involved, that I no longer consider myself one.

A lot changes in a month compared to the 80's when he was involved.

 

[NCCommish]

Tim your government lies to you. They lie to their allies. They break international treaties. I know this because I have been involved. I have been places we weren't supposed to be, doing things we weren't supposed to do, and you were either told nothing about it or were lied to about it, usually a bit of both. I have helped break international treaties concerning certain weapon systems. I have seen men killed in a place we weren't supposed to be and their deaths tucked into a training exercise thousands of miles away.

Your naivety is kind of nice but it's time to take off the blinders. Governments exist to accrue power and the only curb on that accrual is sunshine. Too much happening in the dark here for anyone to be comfortable with or accepting of it.

OK, Rambo.

It's funny because it's all true.

 

[Slapdash]

This certainly does happen. But the idea is that the more you increase free trade, the more consumers you create in each society, and the less tyranny you have over time. I got that from reading F. Hayek in college, a classic libertarian, along with Ludwig Von Mises. I've always believed it, and generally still do. That's why, for me, the promotion of free trade and free markets remains the main key of libertarianism, and it's why I feel comfortable still calling myself a libertarian despite my strong disagreement with many people who claim that title today.

>As I have pointed out on numerous occasions, modern day extremists have so misapplied the term "libertarianism", and moved it so far away from what it was back in the 80s when I was involved, that I no longer consider myself one

span>.

Sigh. I go back and forth. My views haven't changed, but the terminology has.

SquishyTim

 

[Doug B]

Sure, it is a serious issue and I have been part of the crowd for a while. But what can you do about it? The government has been engaging in this type of behavior for decades (or longer). The only new revelation is that the technology they can use to do it is much more powerful.

This is where I'm at with it. There are, of course, legion philosophical complaints that can be lodged.

But, as far as I'm aware, this kind of stuff (less completely and with older technology) has been going on since the 1960s. Doesn't make it "right" ... but then, not all the powers that be define "right/wrong" by what's written in the Constitution. Can't vote 'em out, because (a) many of these "shadow powers" aren't even up for election, and (b) any and all political parties (R, D, Green, Libs, whoever) will maintain the status quo. They, apparently, have to. Constitution be damned.

 

[Doug B]

Your naivety is kind of nice but it's time to take off the blinders. Governments exist to accrue power and the only curb on that accrual is sunshine. Too much happening in the dark here for anyone to be comfortable with or accepting of it.

Has a tiping point been reached? Does the (shadow?) U.S. govenment now have enough power to keep the things they want in the dark essentially forever?

And if so, how long has this been the case? I'm thinking several decades.

 

[shader]

Tim your government lies to you. They lie to their allies. They break international treaties. I know this because I have been involved. I have been places we weren't supposed to be, doing things we weren't supposed to do, and you were either told nothing about it or were lied to about it, usually a bit of both. I have helped break international treaties concerning certain weapon systems. I have seen men killed in a place we weren't supposed to be and their deaths tucked into a training exercise thousands of miles away.

Your naivety is kind of nice but it's time to take off the blinders. Governments exist to accrue power and the only curb on that accrual is sunshine. Too much happening in the dark here for anyone to be comfortable with or accepting of it.

Mitch Rapp is that you?

 

[Slapdash]

The UK is using PRISM too: http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2013/jun/07/uk-gathering-secret-intelligence-nsa-prism

 

[NCCommish]

Tim your government lies to you. They lie to their allies. They break international treaties. I know this because I have been involved. I have been places we weren't supposed to be, doing things we weren't supposed to do, and you were either told nothing about it or were lied to about it, usually a bit of both. I have helped break international treaties concerning certain weapon systems. I have seen men killed in a place we weren't supposed to be and their deaths tucked into a training exercise thousands of miles away. Your naivety is kind of nice but it's time to take off the blinders. Governments exist to accrue power and the only curb on that accrual is sunshine. Too much happening in the dark here for anyone to be comfortable with or accepting of it.

Mitch Rapp is that you?

Nothing so impressive. Just a guy doing a job in AF many, many years ago.

 

[Buddy Ball 2K3]

Tim your government lies to you. They lie to their allies. They break international treaties. I know this because I have been involved. I have been places we weren't supposed to be, doing things we weren't supposed to do, and you were either told nothing about it or were lied to about it, usually a bit of both. I have helped break international treaties concerning certain weapon systems. I have seen men killed in a place we weren't supposed to be and their deaths tucked into a training exercise thousands of miles away. Your naivety is kind of nice but it's time to take off the blinders. Governments exist to accrue power and the only curb on that accrual is sunshine. Too much happening in the dark here for anyone to be comfortable with or accepting of it.

Mitch Rapp is that you?

Nothing so impressive. Just a guy doing a job in AF many, many years ago.

This is like the day I found out my father in law was a spy during the cold war

 

[Slapdash]

Is Prism Going To Harm US High-Tech Exports? Good points being made here about the negative effect this could have on the US tech industry.

 

[GroveDiesel]

Remember when Tim claimed to be a libertarian?

 

[jonessed]

2. Its judicially supervised. The leaked document is a court order. It was issued by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance [FISA] Court. To get the Verizon data, the FBI had to ask the court for permission. The Bush administration used to extract this kind of metadata unilaterally. The Obama administration has changed the rules to bring in the court as an overseer. 3. Its congressionally supervised. Any senator whos expressing shock about the program is a liar or a fool. The Senate Intelligence and Judiciary Committees have been briefed on it many times. Committee members have had access to the relevant FISA court orders and opinions. The intelligence committee has also informed all senators in writing about the program, twice, with invitations to review classified documents about it prior to reauthorization. If they didnt know about it, they werent paying attention.

Both of these arguments suck. Technically yes, it is judicially supervised, but it's supervised by a secret court that doesn't publish its opinions or provide any record of the government's interpretation of the law. And yes technically some members of Congress are briefed on this program, but they are legally barred from telling their constituents about it.

Per point #2, the writer notes a distinction between the Bush and Obama administrations. Is that relevant?

From what I have read the court hasn't actually denied a request in years. I'm not seeing how that changes anything. As Ezra Klein pointed out instituting faux oversight processes to try and make this appear reasonable makes the whole thing even scarier.

 

[shader]

Tim your government lies to you. They lie to their allies. They break international treaties. I know this because I have been involved. I have been places we weren't supposed to be, doing things we weren't supposed to do, and you were either told nothing about it or were lied to about it, usually a bit of both. I have helped break international treaties concerning certain weapon systems. I have seen men killed in a place we weren't supposed to be and their deaths tucked into a training exercise thousands of miles away. Your naivety is kind of nice but it's time to take off the blinders. Governments exist to accrue power and the only curb on that accrual is sunshine. Too much happening in the dark here for anyone to be comfortable with or accepting of it.

Mitch Rapp is that you?

Nothing so impressive. Just a guy doing a job in AF many, many years ago.

This is like the day I found out my father in law was a spy during the cold war

 

[jonessed]

Is Prism Going To Harm US High-Tech Exports? Good points being made here about the negative effect this could have on the US tech industry.

We been giving China crap for years about this kind of stuff. Our government just took a giant dump on our credibility.

 

[StrikeS2k]

Listening to Obama now. He just said that the people in charge of this take their work VERY seriously, and the last thing they would do is abuse their power. I feel much better now.

 

[jonessed]

Your naivety is kind of nice but it's time to take off the blinders. Governments exist to accrue power and the only curb on that accrual is sunshine. Too much happening in the dark here for anyone to be comfortable with or accepting of it.

Has a tiping point been reached? Does the (shadow?) U.S. govenment now have enough power to keep the things they want in the dark essentially forever?And if so, how long has this been the case? I'm thinking several decades.

My biggest concern with all of this is how our media has been asleep at the wheel. I expect the government to be corrupt and power hungry. Its our job to rein in that power when it gets out of hand. The media plays a big part in allowing us to do that though.This program is huge, it's been expanding exponentially for seven years, it has tentacles in all three branches of government, it involves dozens of business partners, and it took a British paper to break the story. The US media ought to be completely ashamed and we ought to be seriously concerned about its current state.

 

[NCCommish]

Your naivety is kind of nice but it's time to take off the blinders. Governments exist to accrue power and the only curb on that accrual is sunshine. Too much happening in the dark here for anyone to be comfortable with or accepting of it.

Has a tiping point been reached? Does the (shadow?) U.S. govenment now have enough power to keep the things they want in the dark essentially forever?And if so, how long has this been the case? I'm thinking several decades.

My biggest concern with all of this is how our media has been asleep at the wheel. I expect the government to be corript. Its our job to rein in power. The media plays a big part in allowing us to do that though.This program is huge, it's been expanding exponentially for seven years, it has tentacles in all three branches of government, it involves dozens of business partners, and it took a British paper to break the story. The US media ought to be completely ashamed.

The US media is largely populated with useless stenographers who are more concerned about being invited to the right cocktail party than they are about actually reporting stuff.

 

[Hang 10]

Listening to Obama now. He just said that the people in charge of this take their work VERY seriously, and the last thing they would do is abuse their power. I feel much better now.

Serious as someone at the IRS perhaps?

 

[Thunderlips]

Must be something really serious on the horizon if the government is doing this.

 

[PlasmaDogPlasma]

Is Prism Going To Harm US High-Tech Exports? Good points being made here about the negative effect this could have on the US tech industry.

Bad for profits? This just got real for a lot of folks.

 

[tom22406]

Listening to Obama now. He just said that the people in charge of this take their work VERY seriously, and the last thing they would do is abuse their power. I feel much better now.

I'm glad that's settled now.

Welcome to the new normal!

 

[Slapdash]

Is Prism Going To Harm US High-Tech Exports? Good points being made here about the negative effect this could have on the US tech industry.

We been giving China crap for years about this kind of stuff. Our government just took a giant dump on our credibility.

Yep. I pointed out during the Huawei contraversy that our government was doing the same thing, if not worse.

I have always found the cyber-espionage claims against China hypocritical.

 

[PlasmaDogPlasma]

My biggest concern with all of this is how our media has been asleep at the wheel. I expect the government to be corrupt and power hungry. Its our job to rein in that power when it gets out of hand. The media plays a big part in allowing us to do that though.This program is huge, it's been expanding exponentially for seven years, it has tentacles in all three branches of government, it involves dozens of business partners, and it took a British paper to break the story. The US media ought to be completely ashamed and we ought to be seriously concerned about its current state.

To be fair, Greenwald is an American journalist working for the American edition of the Guardian.Still mostly a failure by our media.

 

[Doug B]

The US media is largely populated with useless stenographers who are more concerned about being invited to the right cocktail party than they are about actually reporting stuff.

I don't think media can do jack-schmidt about it, really. At very best, the front-facing government publicly pretends to dismantle the offending programs. Meanwhile, it's all driven further underground, and it remains situation normal behind the curtain.

 

[Slapdash]

Your naivety is kind of nice but it's time to take off the blinders. Governments exist to accrue power and the only curb on that accrual is sunshine. Too much happening in the dark here for anyone to be comfortable with or accepting of it.

Has a tiping point been reached? Does the (shadow?) U.S. govenment now have enough power to keep the things they want in the dark essentially forever?And if so, how long has this been the case? I'm thinking several decades.

My biggest concern with all of this is how our media has been asleep at the wheel. I expect the government to be corript. Its our job to rein in power. The media plays a big part in allowing us to do that though.This program is huge, it's been expanding exponentially for seven years, it has tentacles in all three branches of government, it involves dozens of business partners, and it took a British paper to break the story. The US media ought to be completely ashamed.

The US media is largely populated with useless stenographers who are more concerned about being invited to the right cocktail party than they are about actually reporting stuff.

Exactly.

 

[Slapdash]

The US media is largely populated with useless stenographers who are more concerned about being invited to the right cocktail party than they are about actually reporting stuff.

I don't think media can do jack-schmidt about it, really. At very best, the front-facing government publicly pretends to dismantle the offending programs. Meanwhile, it's all driven further underground, and it remains situation normal behind the curtain.

The media can do a lot by covering the abuses and encouraging whistle-blowers.

 

[jonessed]

Listening to Obama now. He just said that the people in charge of this take their work VERY seriously, and the last thing they would do is abuse their power. I feel much better now.

Welcome to the world of no credibility Mr. Obama. It's going to take some time to get used to.

 

[Hang 10]

Your naivety is kind of nice but it's time to take off the blinders. Governments exist to accrue power and the only curb on that accrual is sunshine. Too much happening in the dark here for anyone to be comfortable with or accepting of it.

Has a tiping point been reached? Does the (shadow?) U.S. govenment now have enough power to keep the things they want in the dark essentially forever?And if so, how long has this been the case? I'm thinking several decades.

My biggest concern with all of this is how our media has been asleep at the wheel. I expect the government to be corrupt and power hungry. Its our job to rein in that power when it gets out of hand. The media plays a big part in allowing us to do that though.This program is huge, it's been expanding exponentially for seven years, it has tentacles in all three branches of government, it involves dozens of business partners, and it took a British paper to break the story. The US media ought to be completely ashamed and we ought to be seriously concerned about its current state.

Maybe the US reporters afraid of being brought up on espionage charges.

 

[jonessed]

The US media is largely populated with useless stenographers who are more concerned about being invited to the right cocktail party than they are about actually reporting stuff.

I don't think media can do jack-schmidt about it, really. At very best, the front-facing government publicly pretends to dismantle the offending programs. Meanwhile, it's all driven further underground, and it remains situation normal behind the curtain.

A lot of people knew about this, both public and private. The program is huge and definitely should not have taken seven years to come to light.

 

[Doug B]

The media can do a lot by covering the abuses and encouraging whistle-blowers.

I'm not talking about mere revelation on unconstitutional activity -- I'm talking about under-the-table reactions to such revelation.

The whistle-blowers can be ignored by those that don't answer to the electorate, can't they?

 

[Slapdash]

The media can do a lot by covering the abuses and encouraging whistle-blowers.

I'm not talking about mere revelation on unconstitutional activity -- I'm talking about under-the-table reactions to such revelation.

The whistle-blowers can be ignored by those that don't answer to the electorate, can't they?

If the government is incapable of answering to the electorate, then it is time for revolution. No other way.

 

[Doug B]

If the government is incapable of answering to the electorate, then it is time for revolution. No other way.

If PRISM is the hill on which to die, then you are correct.

However, note that whoever leads after the revolution will pull the same kee-rap in short order. Power corrupts, and it corrupts every time.

 

[Hang 10]

The media can do a lot by covering the abuses and encouraging whistle-blowers.

I'm not talking about mere revelation on unconstitutional activity -- I'm talking about under-the-table reactions to such revelation. The whistle-blowers can be ignored by those that don't answer to the electorate, can't they?

If the government is incapable of answering to the electorate, then it is time for revolution. No other way.

Are there any black helicopters outside your window yet? :sacred:

 

[Slapdash]

The media can do a lot by covering the abuses and encouraging whistle-blowers.

I'm not talking about mere revelation on unconstitutional activity -- I'm talking about under-the-table reactions to such revelation. The whistle-blowers can be ignored by those that don't answer to the electorate, can't they?

If the government is incapable of answering to the electorate, then it is time for revolution. No other way.

Are there any black helicopters outside your window yet? :sacred:

Nope, just the medical helos from the nearby hospital.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

A guy I work with is on an email trail of some sort and he just got a call from a Faux News producer asking him for comment. He turned about as white as Bob Jones University classroom.

Data mining has been going on for 50+ years, no one cares about you cheating on your wife or what kind of cheese you want on your pizza.

 

[Slapdash]

If the government is incapable of answering to the electorate, then it is time for revolution. No other way.

If PRISM is the hill on which to die, then you are correct.

However, note that whoever leads after the revolution will pull the same kee-rap in short order. Power corrupts, and it corrupts every time.

Gotta re-fresh that tree of liberty every once in a while.

 

[Doug B]

Data mining has been going on for 50+ years, no one cares about you cheating on your wife or what kind of cheese you want on your pizza.

For fans of William Poundstone's Big Secrets series of books, he covered a lot of thsi territory in 1986's Bigger Secrets. Here's a link to a synopsis (from a 1990 print article in the Boca Raton News. Didn't know Google had that kind of thing!). And Poundstone wrote of the various listening programs as already being decades old.

That's why it's weird to me that PRISM is treated as some kind of unprecendented line-overstepping. Seems like it's the same old same old, and isn't going anywhere in the face of either pens or pistols.

 

[MikeIke]

Who ever said FISA was a rubber stamp was right on. In 2012, they didn't reject a single surveillance request.

https://www.fas.org/irp/agency/doj/fisa/2012rept.pdf

Bump for Tim.

Going back to 1979, the FISA court has only rejected 11 out of 33,949 applications. I'd call that a rubber stamp.

http://epic.org/privacy/wiretap/stats/fisa_stats.html

 

[Doug B]

Going back to 1979, the FISA court has only rejected 11 out of 33,949 applications. I'd call that a rubber stamp.

http://epic.org/privacy/wiretap/stats/fisa_stats.html

Didn't know FISA was that old. Just assumed it was a post-9/11 thing.

 

[timschochet]

A guy I work with is on an email trail of some sort and he just got a call from a Faux News producer asking him for comment. He turned about as white as Bob Jones University classroom.

Data mining has been going on for 50+ years, no one cares about you cheating on your wife or what kind of cheese you want on your pizza.

Also, . I'd still like to know more details, but my instincts tell me that the good doctor is correct about this.

 

[MikeIke]

Going back to 1979, the FISA court has only rejected 11 out of 33,949 applications. I'd call that a rubber stamp.

http://epic.org/privacy/wiretap/stats/fisa_stats.html

Didn't know FISA was that old. Just assumed it was a post-9/11 thing.

No, more like a post-Richard Nixon thing. He used the intelligence agencies to spy on his enemies. It was amended after 2001 to include terrorism.

 

[timschochet]

Who ever said FISA was a rubber stamp was right on. In 2012, they didn't reject a single surveillance request.

https://www.fas.org/irp/agency/doj/fisa/2012rept.pdf

Bump for Tim.

Going back to 1979, the FISA court has only rejected 11 out of 33,949 applications. I'd call that a rubber stamp.

http://epic.org/privacy/wiretap/stats/fisa_stats.html

Again, this could tell us that the government is doing its job and not screwing around with this sort of thing. Or it could tell us that FISA is useless and allows the government to do whatever it wants. It really depends on your POV. If you begin with the notion that the government is evil and trying to screw us, I doubt any kind of safeguard is ever going to convince you otherwise.

 

[MikeIke]

Tim, I understand what you're saying but I find it hard to believe you're really that naive.