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Verizon required to give ALL call data to NSA (8 Viewers)

This line in the article says it all for me.

"In effect, facing the N.S.A.s relentless advance, the companies surrendered."

The new normal!!
Remember, this makes us more free.
You misquoted me once again.What I wrote is that the same technology that makes it possible for the NSA to do what it is doing ironically serves to give the public more freedom than it has ever had. A society in which the government has access to all private emails is more free than a society in which emails don't exist.
What "technology" specifically are you referring to?
bump
Sorry, thought I made this clear earlier. The technology of the internet and emails.

(Though I will also accept Politician Spock's theory that ball bearings and bumper cars have also made us more free.)
You are going to have to explain to me how the internet and email have provided freedom....perhaps we should go over the definition of "freedom" before we go any further, because I'm not any more free today than I was in 1988
Yeah, your definition of freedom may be very different from mine. I don't view freedom as just the prevention of a negative, but as the promotion of a positive. The internet makes all of our lives easier, and that ease contributes greatly to our freedom. As does nearly every new technology.

The best analogy I can give you is the washing machine and dishwasher. In legal terms, married women before the late 1950s were not prohibited from the workplace; they were not forced to be housewives. But in practical terms, the majority of them were, because housework averaged 8 hours a day. Along came the washing machine, dryer, and dishwasher. 8 hours a day turned into 2-3 hours a day. Suddenly women were much more free to pursue other goals. To me, this is just as important a freedom as any that might be written into law. So my point is, you're wrong: you ARE much more free than you were in 1988, even if you won't realize it or acknowledge it.

 
This line in the article says it all for me.

"In effect, facing the N.S.A.s relentless advance, the companies surrendered."

The new normal!!
Remember, this makes us more free.
You misquoted me once again.What I wrote is that the same technology that makes it possible for the NSA to do what it is doing ironically serves to give the public more freedom than it has ever had. A society in which the government has access to all private emails is more free than a society in which emails don't exist.
What "technology" specifically are you referring to?
bump
Sorry, thought I made this clear earlier. The technology of the internet and emails.

(Though I will also accept Politician Spock's theory that ball bearings and bumper cars have also made us more free.)
You are going to have to explain to me how the internet and email have provided freedom....perhaps we should go over the definition of "freedom" before we go any further, because I'm not any more free today than I was in 1988
Yeah, your definition of freedom may be very different from mine. I don't view freedom as just the prevention of a negative, but as the promotion of a positive. The internet makes all of our lives easier, and that ease contributes greatly to our freedom. As does nearly every new technology.

The best analogy I can give you is the washing machine and dishwasher. In legal terms, married women before the late 1950s were not prohibited from the workplace; they were not forced to be housewives. But in practical terms, the majority of them were, because housework averaged 8 hours a day. Along came the washing machine, dryer, and dishwasher. 8 hours a day turned into 2-3 hours a day. Suddenly women were much more free to pursue other goals. To me, this is just as important a freedom as any that might be written into law. So my point is, you're wrong: you ARE much more free than you were in 1988, even if you won't realize it or acknowledge it.
Cool. So when I give my girlfriend a new vacuum cleaner for her birthday I'll be sure to tell her I did it to make her more "free."

:lmao:

 
This line in the article says it all for me.

"In effect, facing the N.S.A.s relentless advance, the companies surrendered."

The new normal!!
Remember, this makes us more free.
You misquoted me once again.What I wrote is that the same technology that makes it possible for the NSA to do what it is doing ironically serves to give the public more freedom than it has ever had. A society in which the government has access to all private emails is more free than a society in which emails don't exist.
What "technology" specifically are you referring to?
bump
Sorry, thought I made this clear earlier. The technology of the internet and emails.

(Though I will also accept Politician Spock's theory that ball bearings and bumper cars have also made us more free.)
You are going to have to explain to me how the internet and email have provided freedom....perhaps we should go over the definition of "freedom" before we go any further, because I'm not any more free today than I was in 1988
Yeah, your definition of freedom may be very different from mine. I don't view freedom as just the prevention of a negative, but as the promotion of a positive. The internet makes all of our lives easier, and that ease contributes greatly to our freedom. As does nearly every new technology.

The best analogy I can give you is the washing machine and dishwasher. In legal terms, married women before the late 1950s were not prohibited from the workplace; they were not forced to be housewives. But in practical terms, the majority of them were, because housework averaged 8 hours a day. Along came the washing machine, dryer, and dishwasher. 8 hours a day turned into 2-3 hours a day. Suddenly women were much more free to pursue other goals. To me, this is just as important a freedom as any that might be written into law. So my point is, you're wrong: you ARE much more free than you were in 1988, even if you won't realize it or acknowledge it.
Cool. So when I give my girlfriend a new vacuum cleaner for her birthday I'll be sure to tell her I did it to make her more "free."

:lmao:
If the alternative was her sweeping every day with a broom, then she will be more free. Time to do what you want = freedom.

 
This line in the article says it all for me.

"In effect, facing the N.S.A.s relentless advance, the companies surrendered."

The new normal!!
Remember, this makes us more free.
You misquoted me once again.What I wrote is that the same technology that makes it possible for the NSA to do what it is doing ironically serves to give the public more freedom than it has ever had. A society in which the government has access to all private emails is more free than a society in which emails don't exist.
What "technology" specifically are you referring to?
bump
Sorry, thought I made this clear earlier. The technology of the internet and emails.

(Though I will also accept Politician Spock's theory that ball bearings and bumper cars have also made us more free.)
You are going to have to explain to me how the internet and email have provided freedom....perhaps we should go over the definition of "freedom" before we go any further, because I'm not any more free today than I was in 1988
Yeah, your definition of freedom may be very different from mine. I don't view freedom as just the prevention of a negative, but as the promotion of a positive. The internet makes all of our lives easier, and that ease contributes greatly to our freedom. As does nearly every new technology.

The best analogy I can give you is the washing machine and dishwasher. In legal terms, married women before the late 1950s were not prohibited from the workplace; they were not forced to be housewives. But in practical terms, the majority of them were, because housework averaged 8 hours a day. Along came the washing machine, dryer, and dishwasher. 8 hours a day turned into 2-3 hours a day. Suddenly women were much more free to pursue other goals. To me, this is just as important a freedom as any that might be written into law. So my point is, you're wrong: you ARE much more free than you were in 1988, even if you won't realize it or acknowledge it.
Cool. So when I give my girlfriend a new vacuum cleaner for her birthday I'll be sure to tell her I did it to make her more "free."

:lmao:
Still not sure what that post had to do with the internet.

 
This line in the article says it all for me.

"In effect, facing the N.S.A.s relentless advance, the companies surrendered."

The new normal!!
Remember, this makes us more free.
You misquoted me once again.What I wrote is that the same technology that makes it possible for the NSA to do what it is doing ironically serves to give the public more freedom than it has ever had. A society in which the government has access to all private emails is more free than a society in which emails don't exist.
What "technology" specifically are you referring to?
bump
Sorry, thought I made this clear earlier. The technology of the internet and emails.

(Though I will also accept Politician Spock's theory that ball bearings and bumper cars have also made us more free.)
You are going to have to explain to me how the internet and email have provided freedom....perhaps we should go over the definition of "freedom" before we go any further, because I'm not any more free today than I was in 1988
Yeah, your definition of freedom may be very different from mine. I don't view freedom as just the prevention of a negative, but as the promotion of a positive. The internet makes all of our lives easier, and that ease contributes greatly to our freedom. As does nearly every new technology.

The best analogy I can give you is the washing machine and dishwasher. In legal terms, married women before the late 1950s were not prohibited from the workplace; they were not forced to be housewives. But in practical terms, the majority of them were, because housework averaged 8 hours a day. Along came the washing machine, dryer, and dishwasher. 8 hours a day turned into 2-3 hours a day. Suddenly women were much more free to pursue other goals. To me, this is just as important a freedom as any that might be written into law. So my point is, you're wrong: you ARE much more free than you were in 1988, even if you won't realize it or acknowledge it.
Cool. So when I give my girlfriend a new vacuum cleaner for her birthday I'll be sure to tell her I did it to make her more "free."

:lmao:
Still not sure what that post had to do with the internet.
He didn't say it was good, or even relevant. He said it was the "best" analogy he could give. So any other analogies he could come up with just sucked even more.

 
Neither of you guys want to agree with me (which is fine.) But I'm betting you both understand what I'm saying. Essentially anything that provides you more time to do what you want gives you more freedom. It's hardly an original concept.

 
Neither of you guys want to agree with me (which is fine.) But I'm betting you both understand what I'm saying. Essentially anything that provides you more time to do what you want gives you more freedom. It's hardly an original concept.
No Tim. I don't consider the Bush men of southern Yuganda less free because they don't have a dish washer. Sorry, I just don't.

 
Neither of you guys want to agree with me (which is fine.) But I'm betting you both understand what I'm saying. Essentially anything that provides you more time to do what you want gives you more freedom. It's hardly an original concept.
You didn't say anything that supported your implication that the internet does that.

 
Neither of you guys want to agree with me (which is fine.) But I'm betting you both understand what I'm saying. Essentially anything that provides you more time to do what you want gives you more freedom. It's hardly an original concept.
No Tim. I don't consider the Bush men of southern Yuganda less free because they don't have a dish washer. Sorry, I just don't.
then you're wrong. Unless- what is Yuganda?

 
Neither of you guys want to agree with me (which is fine.) But I'm betting you both understand what I'm saying. Essentially anything that provides you more time to do what you want gives you more freedom. It's hardly an original concept.
You didn't say anything that supported your implication that the internet does that.
I didn't I needed to go into any detail as to how much time the internet saves the average person.

 
Neither of you guys want to agree with me (which is fine.) But I'm betting you both understand what I'm saying. Essentially anything that provides you more time to do what you want gives you more freedom. It's hardly an original concept.
No Tim. I don't consider the Bush men of southern Yuganda less free because they don't have a dish washer. Sorry, I just don't.
then you're wrong. Unless- what is Yuganda?
Tim, if you think you've made any valid points in this thread then you have about as much idea of what constitutes being right or wrong as you do about what constitutes freedom.

 
Neither of you guys want to agree with me (which is fine.) But I'm betting you both understand what I'm saying. Essentially anything that provides you more time to do what you want gives you more freedom. It's hardly an original concept.
You didn't say anything that supported your implication that the internet does that
I didn't I needed to go into any detail as to how much time the internet saves the average person.
Yeah, instead you went into detail on an irrelevant analogy to a completely different type of technology.

 
This line in the article says it all for me.

"In effect, facing the N.S.A.s relentless advance, the companies surrendered."

The new normal!!
Remember, this makes us more free.
You misquoted me once again.What I wrote is that the same technology that makes it possible for the NSA to do what it is doing ironically serves to give the public more freedom than it has ever had. A society in which the government has access to all private emails is more free than a society in which emails don't exist.
What "technology" specifically are you referring to?
bump
Sorry, thought I made this clear earlier. The technology of the internet and emails.

(Though I will also accept Politician Spock's theory that ball bearings and bumper cars have also made us more free.)
You are going to have to explain to me how the internet and email have provided freedom....perhaps we should go over the definition of "freedom" before we go any further, because I'm not any more free today than I was in 1988
Yeah, your definition of freedom may be very different from mine. I don't view freedom as just the prevention of a negative, but as the promotion of a positive. The internet makes all of our lives easier, and that ease contributes greatly to our freedom. As does nearly every new technology.

The best analogy I can give you is the washing machine and dishwasher. In legal terms, married women before the late 1950s were not prohibited from the workplace; they were not forced to be housewives. But in practical terms, the majority of them were, because housework averaged 8 hours a day. Along came the washing machine, dryer, and dishwasher. 8 hours a day turned into 2-3 hours a day. Suddenly women were much more free to pursue other goals. To me, this is just as important a freedom as any that might be written into law. So my point is, you're wrong: you ARE much more free than you were in 1988, even if you won't realize it or acknowledge it.
Yes...our definitions are VERY different. Freedom to me is about more than efficiency.

 
Neither of you guys want to agree with me (which is fine.) But I'm betting you both understand what I'm saying. Essentially anything that provides you more time to do what you want gives you more freedom. It's hardly an original concept.
Now I see the issue. "Freedom" is not the same thing as "free time". Prisoners have plenty of free time, but they're not "free" by any stretch.

Freedom is the ability to determine one's own fate without restraint.

 
This line in the article says it all for me.

"In effect, facing the N.S.A.s relentless advance, the companies surrendered."

The new normal!!
Remember, this makes us more free.
You misquoted me once again.What I wrote is that the same technology that makes it possible for the NSA to do what it is doing ironically serves to give the public more freedom than it has ever had. A society in which the government has access to all private emails is more free than a society in which emails don't exist.
What "technology" specifically are you referring to?
bump
Sorry, thought I made this clear earlier. The technology of the internet and emails.

(Though I will also accept Politician Spock's theory that ball bearings and bumper cars have also made us more free.)
You are going to have to explain to me how the internet and email have provided freedom....perhaps we should go over the definition of "freedom" before we go any further, because I'm not any more free today than I was in 1988
Yeah, your definition of freedom may be very different from mine. I don't view freedom as just the prevention of a negative, but as the promotion of a positive. The internet makes all of our lives easier, and that ease contributes greatly to our freedom. As does nearly every new technology.

The best analogy I can give you is the washing machine and dishwasher. In legal terms, married women before the late 1950s were not prohibited from the workplace; they were not forced to be housewives. But in practical terms, the majority of them were, because housework averaged 8 hours a day. Along came the washing machine, dryer, and dishwasher. 8 hours a day turned into 2-3 hours a day. Suddenly women were much more free to pursue other goals. To me, this is just as important a freedom as any that might be written into law. So my point is, you're wrong: you ARE much more free than you were in 1988, even if you won't realize it or acknowledge it.
:doh: :o :cry: :lol: :towelwave: :excited: :lmao: :rant: :jawdrop:

 
This line in the article says it all for me.

"In effect, facing the N.S.A.s relentless advance, the companies surrendered."

The new normal!!
Remember, this makes us more free.
You misquoted me once again.What I wrote is that the same technology that makes it possible for the NSA to do what it is doing ironically serves to give the public more freedom than it has ever had. A society in which the government has access to all private emails is more free than a society in which emails don't exist.
What "technology" specifically are you referring to?
bump
Sorry, thought I made this clear earlier. The technology of the internet and emails.

(Though I will also accept Politician Spock's theory that ball bearings and bumper cars have also made us more free.)
You are going to have to explain to me how the internet and email have provided freedom....perhaps we should go over the definition of "freedom" before we go any further, because I'm not any more free today than I was in 1988
Yeah, your definition of freedom may be very different from mine. I don't view freedom as just the prevention of a negative, but as the promotion of a positive. The internet makes all of our lives easier, and that ease contributes greatly to our freedom. As does nearly every new technology.

The best analogy I can give you is the washing machine and dishwasher. In legal terms, married women before the late 1950s were not prohibited from the workplace; they were not forced to be housewives. But in practical terms, the majority of them were, because housework averaged 8 hours a day. Along came the washing machine, dryer, and dishwasher. 8 hours a day turned into 2-3 hours a day. Suddenly women were much more free to pursue other goals. To me, this is just as important a freedom as any that might be written into law. So my point is, you're wrong: you ARE much more free than you were in 1988, even if you won't realize it or acknowledge it.
Cool. So when I give my girlfriend a new vacuum cleaner for her birthday I'll be sure to tell her I did it to make her more "free."

:lmao:
Play some Tom Petty "Free Fallin'" as she opens it. That'll make it clear.

 
This line in the article says it all for me.

"In effect, facing the N.S.A.s relentless advance, the companies surrendered."

The new normal!!
Remember, this makes us more free.
You misquoted me once again.What I wrote is that the same technology that makes it possible for the NSA to do what it is doing ironically serves to give the public more freedom than it has ever had. A society in which the government has access to all private emails is more free than a society in which emails don't exist.
What "technology" specifically are you referring to?
bump
Sorry, thought I made this clear earlier. The technology of the internet and emails.

(Though I will also accept Politician Spock's theory that ball bearings and bumper cars have also made us more free.)
You are going to have to explain to me how the internet and email have provided freedom....perhaps we should go over the definition of "freedom" before we go any further, because I'm not any more free today than I was in 1988
Yeah, your definition of freedom may be very different from mine. I don't view freedom as just the prevention of a negative, but as the promotion of a positive. The internet makes all of our lives easier, and that ease contributes greatly to our freedom. As does nearly every new technology.

The best analogy I can give you is the washing machine and dishwasher. In legal terms, married women before the late 1950s were not prohibited from the workplace; they were not forced to be housewives. But in practical terms, the majority of them were, because housework averaged 8 hours a day. Along came the washing machine, dryer, and dishwasher. 8 hours a day turned into 2-3 hours a day. Suddenly women were much more free to pursue other goals. To me, this is just as important a freedom as any that might be written into law. So my point is, you're wrong: you ARE much more free than you were in 1988, even if you won't realize it or acknowledge it.
Cool. So when I give my girlfriend a new vacuum cleaner for her birthday I'll be sure to tell her I did it to make her more "free."

:lmao:
If the alternative was her sweeping every day with a broom, then she will be more free. Time to do what you want = freedom.
HFS!!! HE'S SERIOUS!!!! :lmao:

 
Neither of you guys want to agree with me (which is fine.) But I'm betting you both understand what I'm saying. Essentially anything that provides you more time to do what you want gives you more freedom. It's hardly an original concept.
Well, ####. That means thousands of people didn't have to die to free the slaves. We could have just bought them tractors.

 
If the alternative was her sweeping every day with a broom, then she will be more free. Time to do what you want = freedom.
HFS!!! HE'S SERIOUS!!!! :lmao:
I would call Tim's views on Freedom "Fringe". You only see them on the Hoover and Maytag websites.
Well, that and some very famous sociologists and political scientists. I know you guys enjoy laughing at me, but the relationship between greater technology and greater freedom is not an argument I originated.

For example, here is an article from The Economist: http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2013/06/technology-and-freedom The bolded part emphasizes my own position:

The world is in many ways much less free than it was in the 19th century. Taxes are higher. Regulations are more burdensome. It's much more difficult to leave old unhappy lives behind and start over in a new city. It's harder to obtain a gun, and there are far fewer place where it's legal to carry a weapon, to say nothing of using one. The construction of the modern, urban, industrial economy created great public demand for government intervention: to build infrastructure, maintain order, and protect the general welfare. And to no small extent cities—with their concentrated, docile millions—were much easier to tax, regulate, and surveil than dispersed rural communities.

But it would be nuts to conclude that there were no compensating improvements in personal freedom. One obvious point: wealthier, more enlightened societies greatly expanded the share of the population able to enjoy basic human freedoms, to include non-property-owners, non-whites, women, and so on. Most of society was not actually very free at all in the 19th century, if truth be told.

Modern economic growth also enabled specialisation and prosperity, both of which led to an enormous expansion in the economic opportunities available to a given person. Higher incomes bring protection against risk, and more complex economies give people greater choice on the consumption and production side of the equation. I could go work on a farm if I wanted to, as my grandfather did, but I have innumerable other occupational options he did not, and many more things to spend my money on when I'm paid.

With new technologies come new government intrusions and new and valid conceptions of freedom. The social safety net requires burdensome taxation but frees people from the threat of deprivation, allowing them to take risks by investing in education or starting a company. Air travel enables the government to see the contents of my suitcase and my trousers, but it makes it possible to travel the world or enjoy a remarkable array of goods while staying put. Mobile computing and the internet increasingly allow the government (among others) to figure out where I am, who I am with, what I am buying, what I am saying, and a whole extraordinary list of other things.

But there are compensating benefits. It is much easier to find one's way around. It's easier to find things I want to buy (the ranks of which also continue to expand). It is cheaper and easier to associate with other people across vast distances than it has ever been before. It is much easier to share information. Individuals wishing to share ideas or political messages or songs they've written have far fewer barriers to overcome than was once the case. To the extent that these new technologies promote specialisation and prosperity (by making health care better and cheaper, for instance) that too will enhance human freedom.

I couldn't write it any better than that.

 
If the alternative was her sweeping every day with a broom, then she will be more free. Time to do what you want = freedom.
HFS!!! HE'S SERIOUS!!!! :lmao:
I would call Tim's views on Freedom "Fringe". You only see them on the Hoover and Maytag websites.
Well, that and some very famous sociologists and political scientists. I know you guys enjoy laughing at me, but the relationship between greater technology and greater freedom is not an argument I originated.

For example, here is an article from The Economist: http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2013/06/technology-and-freedom The bolded part emphasizes my own position:

The world is in many ways much less free than it was in the 19th century. Taxes are higher. Regulations are more burdensome. It's much more difficult to leave old unhappy lives behind and start over in a new city. It's harder to obtain a gun, and there are far fewer place where it's legal to carry a weapon, to say nothing of using one. The construction of the modern, urban, industrial economy created great public demand for government intervention: to build infrastructure, maintain order, and protect the general welfare. And to no small extent cities—with their concentrated, docile millions—were much easier to tax, regulate, and surveil than dispersed rural communities.

But it would be nuts to conclude that there were no compensating improvements in personal freedom. One obvious point: wealthier, more enlightened societies greatly expanded the share of the population able to enjoy basic human freedoms, to include non-property-owners, non-whites, women, and so on. Most of society was not actually very free at all in the 19th century, if truth be told.

Modern economic growth also enabled specialisation and prosperity, both of which led to an enormous expansion in the economic opportunities available to a given person. Higher incomes bring protection against risk, and more complex economies give people greater choice on the consumption and production side of the equation. I could go work on a farm if I wanted to, as my grandfather did, but I have innumerable other occupational options he did not, and many more things to spend my money on when I'm paid.

With new technologies come new government intrusions and new and valid conceptions of freedom. The social safety net requires burdensome taxation but frees people from the threat of deprivation, allowing them to take risks by investing in education or starting a company. Air travel enables the government to see the contents of my suitcase and my trousers, but it makes it possible to travel the world or enjoy a remarkable array of goods while staying put. Mobile computing and the internet increasingly allow the government (among others) to figure out where I am, who I am with, what I am buying, what I am saying, and a whole extraordinary list of other things.

But there are compensating benefits. It is much easier to find one's way around. It's easier to find things I want to buy (the ranks of which also continue to expand). It is cheaper and easier to associate with other people across vast distances than it has ever been before. It is much easier to share information. Individuals wishing to share ideas or political messages or songs they've written have far fewer barriers to overcome than was once the case. To the extent that these new technologies promote specialisation and prosperity (by making health care better and cheaper, for instance) that too will enhance human freedom.

I couldn't write it any better than that.
Greater freedom from wealth/leisure doesn't equate to greater freedom from government oppression. As you have been arguing the internet makes less likely.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
If the alternative was her sweeping every day with a broom, then she will be more free. Time to do what you want = freedom.
HFS!!! HE'S SERIOUS!!!! :lmao:
I would call Tim's views on Freedom "Fringe". You only see them on the Hoover and Maytag websites.
Well, that and some very famous sociologists and political scientists. I know you guys enjoy laughing at me, but the relationship between greater technology and greater freedom is not an argument I originated.

For example, here is an article from The Economist: http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2013/06/technology-and-freedom The bolded part emphasizes my own position:

The world is in many ways much less free than it was in the 19th century. Taxes are higher. Regulations are more burdensome. It's much more difficult to leave old unhappy lives behind and start over in a new city. It's harder to obtain a gun, and there are far fewer place where it's legal to carry a weapon, to say nothing of using one. The construction of the modern, urban, industrial economy created great public demand for government intervention: to build infrastructure, maintain order, and protect the general welfare. And to no small extent cities—with their concentrated, docile millions—were much easier to tax, regulate, and surveil than dispersed rural communities.

But it would be nuts to conclude that there were no compensating improvements in personal freedom. One obvious point: wealthier, more enlightened societies greatly expanded the share of the population able to enjoy basic human freedoms, to include non-property-owners, non-whites, women, and so on. Most of society was not actually very free at all in the 19th century, if truth be told.

Modern economic growth also enabled specialisation and prosperity, both of which led to an enormous expansion in the economic opportunities available to a given person. Higher incomes bring protection against risk, and more complex economies give people greater choice on the consumption and production side of the equation. I could go work on a farm if I wanted to, as my grandfather did, but I have innumerable other occupational options he did not, and many more things to spend my money on when I'm paid.

With new technologies come new government intrusions and new and valid conceptions of freedom. The social safety net requires burdensome taxation but frees people from the threat of deprivation, allowing them to take risks by investing in education or starting a company. Air travel enables the government to see the contents of my suitcase and my trousers, but it makes it possible to travel the world or enjoy a remarkable array of goods while staying put. Mobile computing and the internet increasingly allow the government (among others) to figure out where I am, who I am with, what I am buying, what I am saying, and a whole extraordinary list of other things.

But there are compensating benefits. It is much easier to find one's way around. It's easier to find things I want to buy (the ranks of which also continue to expand). It is cheaper and easier to associate with other people across vast distances than it has ever been before. It is much easier to share information. Individuals wishing to share ideas or political messages or songs they've written have far fewer barriers to overcome than was once the case. To the extent that these new technologies promote specialisation and prosperity (by making health care better and cheaper, for instance) that too will enhance human freedom.

I couldn't write it any better than that.
Greater freedom from wealth/leisure doesn't equate to greater freedom from government oppression. As you have been arguing the internet makes less likely.
Actually the Internet does both. As I pointed out earlier in this thread, the internet enhances the ability to share information in a revolutionary way unparalleled in human history, except for perhaps Gutenberg's creation of the printing press. The effect of this on future government oppression remains to be seen, but it's my own personal theory that it will serve to make the possibility of dictatorship in already free societies (such as this one) almost negligible, except in the case of complete economic collapse, and maybe not even then.

 
If the alternative was her sweeping every day with a broom, then she will be more free. Time to do what you want = freedom.
HFS!!! HE'S SERIOUS!!!! :lmao:
I would call Tim's views on Freedom "Fringe". You only see them on the Hoover and Maytag websites.
Well, that and some very famous sociologists and political scientists. I know you guys enjoy laughing at me, but the relationship between greater technology and greater freedom is not an argument I originated.

For example, here is an article from The Economist: http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2013/06/technology-and-freedom The bolded part emphasizes my own position:

The world is in many ways much less free than it was in the 19th century. Taxes are higher. Regulations are more burdensome. It's much more difficult to leave old unhappy lives behind and start over in a new city. It's harder to obtain a gun, and there are far fewer place where it's legal to carry a weapon, to say nothing of using one. The construction of the modern, urban, industrial economy created great public demand for government intervention: to build infrastructure, maintain order, and protect the general welfare. And to no small extent cities—with their concentrated, docile millions—were much easier to tax, regulate, and surveil than dispersed rural communities.

But it would be nuts to conclude that there were no compensating improvements in personal freedom. One obvious point: wealthier, more enlightened societies greatly expanded the share of the population able to enjoy basic human freedoms, to include non-property-owners, non-whites, women, and so on. Most of society was not actually very free at all in the 19th century, if truth be told.

Modern economic growth also enabled specialisation and prosperity, both of which led to an enormous expansion in the economic opportunities available to a given person. Higher incomes bring protection against risk, and more complex economies give people greater choice on the consumption and production side of the equation. I could go work on a farm if I wanted to, as my grandfather did, but I have innumerable other occupational options he did not, and many more things to spend my money on when I'm paid.

With new technologies come new government intrusions and new and valid conceptions of freedom. The social safety net requires burdensome taxation but frees people from the threat of deprivation, allowing them to take risks by investing in education or starting a company. Air travel enables the government to see the contents of my suitcase and my trousers, but it makes it possible to travel the world or enjoy a remarkable array of goods while staying put. Mobile computing and the internet increasingly allow the government (among others) to figure out where I am, who I am with, what I am buying, what I am saying, and a whole extraordinary list of other things.

But there are compensating benefits. It is much easier to find one's way around. It's easier to find things I want to buy (the ranks of which also continue to expand). It is cheaper and easier to associate with other people across vast distances than it has ever been before. It is much easier to share information. Individuals wishing to share ideas or political messages or songs they've written have far fewer barriers to overcome than was once the case. To the extent that these new technologies promote specialisation and prosperity (by making health care better and cheaper, for instance) that too will enhance human freedom.

I couldn't write it any better than that.
Greater freedom from wealth/leisure doesn't equate to greater freedom from government oppression. As you have been arguing the internet makes less likely.
Actually the Internet does both. As I pointed out earlier in this thread, the internet enhances the ability to share information in a revolutionary way unparalleled in human history, except for perhaps Gutenberg's creation of the printing press. The effect of this on future government oppression remains to be seen, but it's my own personal theory that it will serve to make the possibility of dictatorship in already free societies (such as this one) almost negligible, except in the case of complete economic collapse, and maybe not even then.
Why do you keep anchoring your argument to "possibility of dictatorship"? Is the set of negative potential results limited to that one situation in your mind?

 
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___snip___

I'm currently working on what I believe are several significant new NSAstories, to be published imminently here, as well as one very consequential story about NSA spying in Brazil that will first be broadcast Sunday night on the Brazilian television program Fantastico (because the report has worldwide implications, far beyond Brazil, it will be translated into English and then quickly published on the internet). Until then, I'm posting below the video of the 30-minute interview I did yesterday on Democracy Now with Amy Goodman and Juan Gonzalez about our NSA encryption story and ongoing US/UK attacks on press freedom (the transcript of that interview is here).

There has been some excellent commentary on the implications of the NSA/GCHQ encryption story we published this week. The LA Times' Jim Healey says the story is "the most frightening" yet, and explains why he thinks that. The Bloomberg technology columnist David Meyer's analysisof what this all means is worth reading in its entirety. In the Guardian, security expert Bruce Schneier, who has worked with us on a couple of soon-to-be-published stories, identifies 5 ways to maintain the privacy of your internet communications notwithstanding the efforts of the NSA and GCHQ to induce companies to build vulnerabilities into certain types of encryption.

As for Brazil, the fallout continues from our report last week on Fantastico revealing the NSA's very personal and specific surveillance targeting of Brazilian president Dilma Rouseff and then-leading-candidate (now Mexican president) Enrique Peña Nieto (the NSA documents we published about those activities are here). In an interview this week with The Hindu's Shobhan Saxena, Brazil's highly popular ex-president Lula vehemently condemned NSA spying abuses and said Obama should "personally apologize to the world". The New York Times' Simon Romero has a good article from yesterday on the thus-far-unsuccessful attempts by Obama to placate the anger in the region from this report. As for the new report coming Sunday night in Brazil, please take note of this adamant statement last week from the NSA, as reported by the Washington Post [asterisks in original]:

"US intelligence services are making routine use around the world of government-built malware that differs little in function from the 'advanced persistent threats' that US officials attribute to China. The principal difference, US officials told The Post, is that China steals US corporate secrets for financial gain.


"'The Department of Defense does engage' in computer network exploitation, according to an e-mailed statement from an NSA spokesman, whose agency is part of the Defense Department. 'The department does ***not*** engage in economic espionage in any domain, including cyber.'"

In Europe this week, President Obama has been making similar claims when asked about NSA spying, repeatedly assuring people that NSA surveillance is overwhelmingly devoted to stopping terrorism threats.

One big problem the NSA and US government generally have had since our reporting began is that their defenses offered in response to each individual story are quickly proven to be false by the next story, which just further undermines their credibility around the world. That NSA denial I just excerpted above has already been disproven by several reports (see, for instance, the letter published in this article, or the last document published here), but after Sunday, I think it will prove to be perhaps the NSA's most misleading statement yet.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/07/nsa-encryption-us-uk-press-freedoms

 
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Because people have raised it in this thread. Anyhow, it's only one of my arguments, specifically regarding the advantages of the internet.

My overall argument to YOUR concerns, Politician Spock, is this: I don't believe that either your life or mine will ever be negatively affected by anything the NSA does. I don't believe you're going to lose one iota of your actual privacy due to these programs, and neither will I. We may continue to have this debate for years to come as to whether or not this is a legal program, or it is a violation of the 4th Amendment, etc.- but that's all it will remain: a debate on a discussion forum. It will have no real effect on our lives.

It MAY have a positive effect fighting terrorism, but in all likelihood we'll probably never know that either, so again the effect on our lives is nil.

 
Because people have raised it in this thread. Anyhow, it's only one of my arguments, specifically regarding the advantages of the internet.

My overall argument to YOUR concerns, Politician Spock, is this: I don't believe that either your life or mine will ever be negatively affected by anything the NSA does. I don't believe you're going to lose one iota of your actual privacy due to these programs, and neither will I. We may continue to have this debate for years to come as to whether or not this is a legal program, or it is a violation of the 4th Amendment, etc.- but that's all it will remain: a debate on a discussion forum. It will have no real effect on our lives.

It MAY have a positive effect fighting terrorism, but in all likelihood we'll probably never know that either, so again the effect on our lives is nil.
I already have.

I think you're taking the position you are taking for no other reason than it hasn't happened to you..... yet.

 
Because people have raised it in this thread. Anyhow, it's only one of my arguments, specifically regarding the advantages of the internet.

My overall argument to YOUR concerns, Politician Spock, is this: I don't believe that either your life or mine will ever be negatively affected by anything the NSA does. I don't believe you're going to lose one iota of your actual privacy due to these programs, and neither will I. We may continue to have this debate for years to come as to whether or not this is a legal program, or it is a violation of the 4th Amendment, etc.- but that's all it will remain: a debate on a discussion forum. It will have no real effect on our lives.

It MAY have a positive effect fighting terrorism, but in all likelihood we'll probably never know that either, so again the effect on our lives is nil.
I already have.

I think you're taking the position you are taking for no other reason than it hasn't happened to you..... yet.
Yeah, that must be it.

First they came for the Politician Spocks...

 
Because people have raised it in this thread. Anyhow, it's only one of my arguments, specifically regarding the advantages of the internet.

My overall argument to YOUR concerns, Politician Spock, is this: I don't believe that either your life or mine will ever be negatively affected by anything the NSA does. I don't believe you're going to lose one iota of your actual privacy due to these programs, and neither will I. We may continue to have this debate for years to come as to whether or not this is a legal program, or it is a violation of the 4th Amendment, etc.- but that's all it will remain: a debate on a discussion forum. It will have no real effect on our lives.

It MAY have a positive effect fighting terrorism, but in all likelihood we'll probably never know that either, so again the effect on our lives is nil.
I already have.

I think you're taking the position you are taking for no other reason than it hasn't happened to you..... yet.
Yeah, that must be it.

First they came for the Politician Spocks...
Are you deliberately ignoring all the incidents cited in this thread, or are you really this stupid?

 
Because people have raised it in this thread. Anyhow, it's only one of my arguments, specifically regarding the advantages of the internet.

My overall argument to YOUR concerns, Politician Spock, is this: I don't believe that either your life or mine will ever be negatively affected by anything the NSA does. I don't believe you're going to lose one iota of your actual privacy due to these programs, and neither will I. We may continue to have this debate for years to come as to whether or not this is a legal program, or it is a violation of the 4th Amendment, etc.- but that's all it will remain: a debate on a discussion forum. It will have no real effect on our lives.

It MAY have a positive effect fighting terrorism, but in all likelihood we'll probably never know that either, so again the effect on our lives is nil.
I already have.

I think you're taking the position you are taking for no other reason than it hasn't happened to you..... yet.
Yeah, that must be it.

First they came for the Politician Spocks...
Are you deliberately ignoring all the incidents cited in this thread, or are you really this stupid?
Neither. They're anecdotes. I have more chance of being hit by lightning twice or winning the lottery multiple times than I do of being personally affected by any of this.

 
Neither. They're anecdotes. I have more chance of being hit by lightning twice or winning the lottery multiple times than I do of being personally affected by any of this.
You already HAVE been personally affected by this. The fact that you refuse to acknowledge this, or are ok with it, doesn't change that.

 
Because people have raised it in this thread. Anyhow, it's only one of my arguments, specifically regarding the advantages of the internet.

My overall argument to YOUR concerns, Politician Spock, is this: I don't believe that either your life or mine will ever be negatively affected by anything the NSA does. I don't believe you're going to lose one iota of your actual privacy due to these programs, and neither will I. We may continue to have this debate for years to come as to whether or not this is a legal program, or it is a violation of the 4th Amendment, etc.- but that's all it will remain: a debate on a discussion forum. It will have no real effect on our lives.

It MAY have a positive effect fighting terrorism, but in all likelihood we'll probably never know that either, so again the effect on our lives is nil.
I already have.

I think you're taking the position you are taking for no other reason than it hasn't happened to you..... yet.
Yeah, that must be it.

First they came for the Politician Spocks...
Are you deliberately ignoring all the incidents cited in this thread, or are you really this stupid?
Neither. They're anecdotes. I have more chance of being hit by lightning twice or winning the lottery multiple times than I do of being personally affected by any of this.
This answer reflects both ignorance and stupidity.

Congrats on your ability to multitask. It's Impressive... and fascinating.

 
Because people have raised it in this thread. Anyhow, it's only one of my arguments, specifically regarding the advantages of the internet.

My overall argument to YOUR concerns, Politician Spock, is this: I don't believe that either your life or mine will ever be negatively affected by anything the NSA does. I don't believe you're going to lose one iota of your actual privacy due to these programs, and neither will I. We may continue to have this debate for years to come as to whether or not this is a legal program, or it is a violation of the 4th Amendment, etc.- but that's all it will remain: a debate on a discussion forum. It will have no real effect on our lives.

It MAY have a positive effect fighting terrorism, but in all likelihood we'll probably never know that either, so again the effect on our lives is nil.
I already have.

I think you're taking the position you are taking for no other reason than it hasn't happened to you..... yet.
Yeah, that must be it.

First they came for the Politician Spocks...
Are you deliberately ignoring all the incidents cited in this thread, or are you really this stupid?
Those are all anecdotal, all twenty thousand of them.

Or, to repeat something I said earlier... When it's one incident of something timschochet doesn't like, the incident is a clear indicator of systemic problems. When it's one incident of something timschochet doesn't mind, the incident is purely an anecdote, to be safely ignored. Even when there are thousands, or perhaps hundreds of thousands, of incidents, they're just anecdotes.

 
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Snowden IRC chat logs

Snowden turned 30 on Friday—a fugitive in a Hong Kong safehouse, with four lawyers as his only company. He celebrated his birthday with pizza, fried chicken, and Pepsi. On Sunday, he flew to Moscow where he apparently remains.

"He spent all his time inside, in a tiny place," said one of the Hong Kong lawyers, Albert Ho. "But he said it’s OK—with his computer." If Snowden lost that, it would be "the saddest day," said Ho.

ouch

 
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Because people have raised it in this thread. Anyhow, it's only one of my arguments, specifically regarding the advantages of the internet.

My overall argument to YOUR concerns, Politician Spock, is this: I don't believe that either your life or mine will ever be negatively affected by anything the NSA does. I don't believe you're going to lose one iota of your actual privacy due to these programs, and neither will I. We may continue to have this debate for years to come as to whether or not this is a legal program, or it is a violation of the 4th Amendment, etc.- but that's all it will remain: a debate on a discussion forum. It will have no real effect on our lives.

It MAY have a positive effect fighting terrorism, but in all likelihood we'll probably never know that either, so again the effect on our lives is nil.
I already have.

I think you're taking the position you are taking for no other reason than it hasn't happened to you..... yet.
Yeah, that must be it.

First they came for the Politician Spocks...
Are you deliberately ignoring all the incidents cited in this thread, or are you really this stupid?
Neither. They're anecdotes. I have more chance of being hit by lightning twice or winning the lottery multiple times than I do of being personally affected by any of this.
This answer reflects both ignorance and stupidity.

Congrats on your ability to multitask. It's Impressive... and fascinating.
This is the sort of response I am being criticized for in another thread. I'm really going to try to make an effort not to insult other people in any fashion. I hope that others treat me in kind.

 
Because people have raised it in this thread. Anyhow, it's only one of my arguments, specifically regarding the advantages of the internet.

My overall argument to YOUR concerns, Politician Spock, is this: I don't believe that either your life or mine will ever be negatively affected by anything the NSA does. I don't believe you're going to lose one iota of your actual privacy due to these programs, and neither will I. We may continue to have this debate for years to come as to whether or not this is a legal program, or it is a violation of the 4th Amendment, etc.- but that's all it will remain: a debate on a discussion forum. It will have no real effect on our lives.

It MAY have a positive effect fighting terrorism, but in all likelihood we'll probably never know that either, so again the effect on our lives is nil.
I already have.

I think you're taking the position you are taking for no other reason than it hasn't happened to you..... yet.
Yeah, that must be it.First they came for the Politician Spocks...
Are you deliberately ignoring all the incidents cited in this thread, or are you really this stupid?
Neither. They're anecdotes. I have more chance of being hit by lightning twice or winning the lottery multiple times than I do of being personally affected by any of this.
This answer reflects both ignorance and stupidity.

Congrats on your ability to multitask. It's Impressive... and fascinating.
This is the sort of response I am being criticized for in another thread. I'm really going to try to make an effort not to insult other people in any fashion. I hope that others treat me in kind.
You may feel it is insulting. But my intent is not to insult. I am communicating to you exactly what I see and read in your posts. You are literally (and yes I mean literally) failing to look with your eyes and hear with your ears what is going on in government right now, and has been for some time. You are the epitome of the "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" monkeys. Your motivation for behaving this way is getting clearer and clearer with every post. I considered perhaps you or your family financially benefits in one way or another from these programs. But logically I've deduced that possibility because the government would never purchase the services of someone this stupid and ignorant.

 
IMO, the main freedom that the internet has provided is for people from across the globe to communicate, mostly anonymously if they choose. It allows a much greater opportunity for information to spread bypassing the traditional paths of information from the government, media, and people you talk to face to face. It is a more pure version of the freedom of speech. This freedom is lost when the government can collect all of this communication, tie it to the real person, and then process it to identify your personality and personal beliefs and connect you to all of the people you communicate with to create a societal map. That's not a loss of privacy? The government, nor anyone else would have such information without this surveillance power. It doesn't take a lot of imagination to see how this could be used in subversive ways against people. We now know this data is being given to the DEA and being used to bypass the 4th amendment. I think it would be hard to believe it wasn't used by the DHS to crack down on OWS under the guise of preventing domestic terrorism.

 
Because people have raised it in this thread. Anyhow, it's only one of my arguments, specifically regarding the advantages of the internet.

My overall argument to YOUR concerns, Politician Spock, is this: I don't believe that either your life or mine will ever be negatively affected by anything the NSA does. I don't believe you're going to lose one iota of your actual privacy due to these programs, and neither will I. We may continue to have this debate for years to come as to whether or not this is a legal program, or it is a violation of the 4th Amendment, etc.- but that's all it will remain: a debate on a discussion forum. It will have no real effect on our lives.

It MAY have a positive effect fighting terrorism, but in all likelihood we'll probably never know that either, so again the effect on our lives is nil.
I already have.

I think you're taking the position you are taking for no other reason than it hasn't happened to you..... yet.
Yeah, that must be it.First they came for the Politician Spocks...
Are you deliberately ignoring all the incidents cited in this thread, or are you really this stupid?
Neither. They're anecdotes. I have more chance of being hit by lightning twice or winning the lottery multiple times than I do of being personally affected by any of this.
This answer reflects both ignorance and stupidity.

Congrats on your ability to multitask. It's Impressive... and fascinating.
This is the sort of response I am being criticized for in another thread. I'm really going to try to make an effort not to insult other people in any fashion. I hope that others treat me in kind.
You may feel it is insulting. But my intent is not to insult. I am communicating to you exactly what I see and read in your posts. You are literally (and yes I mean literally) failing to look with your eyes and hear with your ears what is going on in government right now, and has been for some time. You are the epitome of the "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" monkeys. Your motivation for behaving this way is getting clearer and clearer with every post. I considered perhaps you or your family financially benefits in one way or another from these programs. But logically I've deduced that possibility because the government would never purchase the services of someone this stupid and ignorant.
:lol: Glad your intent wasn't meant to be insulting. I can only imagine what you might have written if you HAD intended it.

Amazing.

 
I recently learned about the freedom movement and purchased a electric knife to save my g/f time from having to cut things by hand.She also enjoyed the food processor I recently bought.Who knew freedom was this easy to obtain?I certainly do now!!!!

My next freedom purchase will be a dishwasher upgrade.All that time saved now will have me buying more freedom products to further support the movement!!

 
Because people have raised it in this thread. Anyhow, it's only one of my arguments, specifically regarding the advantages of the internet.

My overall argument to YOUR concerns, Politician Spock, is this: I don't believe that either your life or mine will ever be negatively affected by anything the NSA does. I don't believe you're going to lose one iota of your actual privacy due to these programs, and neither will I. We may continue to have this debate for years to come as to whether or not this is a legal program, or it is a violation of the 4th Amendment, etc.- but that's all it will remain: a debate on a discussion forum. It will have no real effect on our lives.

It MAY have a positive effect fighting terrorism, but in all likelihood we'll probably never know that either, so again the effect on our lives is nil.
I already have.

I think you're taking the position you are taking for no other reason than it hasn't happened to you..... yet.
Yeah, that must be it.First they came for the Politician Spocks...
Are you deliberately ignoring all the incidents cited in this thread, or are you really this stupid?
Neither. They're anecdotes. I have more chance of being hit by lightning twice or winning the lottery multiple times than I do of being personally affected by any of this.
This answer reflects both ignorance and stupidity.

Congrats on your ability to multitask. It's Impressive... and fascinating.
This is the sort of response I am being criticized for in another thread. I'm really going to try to make an effort not to insult other people in any fashion. I hope that others treat me in kind.
You may feel it is insulting. But my intent is not to insult. I am communicating to you exactly what I see and read in your posts. You are literally (and yes I mean literally) failing to look with your eyes and hear with your ears what is going on in government right now, and has been for some time. You are the epitome of the "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" monkeys. Your motivation for behaving this way is getting clearer and clearer with every post. I considered perhaps you or your family financially benefits in one way or another from these programs. But logically I've deduced that possibility because the government would never purchase the services of someone this stupid and ignorant.
:lol: Glad your intent wasn't meant to be insulting. I can only imagine what you might have written if you HAD intended it.

Amazing.
I am being completely honest with you Tim. There is no choice of words available to descibe what I see in your posts that you wont find insulting.

If you were anyone else, the best course of action would be to just say nothing, and let it go.... but in your case you won't shut up. You just continue on and on and on and on. At some point someone's got to stand up to the evangelizing of ignorance and stupidity, or we will all become dumber for its repetitiveness.

 
Politician Spock said:
timschochet said:
Politician Spock said:
Because people have raised it in this thread. Anyhow, it's only one of my arguments, specifically regarding the advantages of the internet.

My overall argument to YOUR concerns, Politician Spock, is this: I don't believe that either your life or mine will ever be negatively affected by anything the NSA does. I don't believe you're going to lose one iota of your actual privacy due to these programs, and neither will I. We may continue to have this debate for years to come as to whether or not this is a legal program, or it is a violation of the 4th Amendment, etc.- but that's all it will remain: a debate on a discussion forum. It will have no real effect on our lives.

It MAY have a positive effect fighting terrorism, but in all likelihood we'll probably never know that either, so again the effect on our lives is nil.
I already have.

I think you're taking the position you are taking for no other reason than it hasn't happened to you..... yet.
Yeah, that must be it.First they came for the Politician Spocks...
Are you deliberately ignoring all the incidents cited in this thread, or are you really this stupid?
Neither. They're anecdotes. I have more chance of being hit by lightning twice or winning the lottery multiple times than I do of being personally affected by any of this.
This answer reflects both ignorance and stupidity.

Congrats on your ability to multitask. It's Impressive... and fascinating.
This is the sort of response I am being criticized for in another thread. I'm really going to try to make an effort not to insult other people in any fashion. I hope that others treat me in kind.
You may feel it is insulting. But my intent is not to insult. I am communicating to you exactly what I see and read in your posts. You are literally (and yes I mean literally) failing to look with your eyes and hear with your ears what is going on in government right now, and has been for some time. You are the epitome of the "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" monkeys. Your motivation for behaving this way is getting clearer and clearer with every post. I considered perhaps you or your family financially benefits in one way or another from these programs. But logically I've deduced that possibility because the government would never purchase the services of someone this stupid and ignorant.
:lol: Glad your intent wasn't meant to be insulting. I can only imagine what you might have written if you HAD intended it.Amazing.
I am being completely honest with you Tim. There is no choice of words available to descibe what I see in your posts that you wont find insulting.

If you were anyone else, the best course of action would be to just say nothing, and let it go.... but in your case you won't shut up. You just continue on and on and on and on. At some point someone's got to stand up to the evangelizing of ignorance and stupidity, or we will all become dumber for its repetitiveness.
Just put him on ignore imo.
 
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/obama-administration-had-restrictions-on-nsa-reversed-in-2011/2013/09/07/c26ef658-0fe5-11e3-85b6-d27422650fd5_singlePage.html

The Obama administration secretly won permission from a surveillance court in 2011 to reverse restrictions on the National Security Agencys use of intercepted phone calls and e-mails, permitting the agency to search deliberately for Americans communications in its massive databases, according to interviews with government officials and recently declassified material.

In addition, the court extended the length of time that the NSA is allowed to retain intercepted U.S. communications from five years to six years and more under special circumstances, according to the documents, which include a recently released 2011 opinion by U.S. District Judge John D. Bates, then chief judge of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court.

 
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/obama-administration-had-restrictions-on-nsa-reversed-in-2011/2013/09/07/c26ef658-0fe5-11e3-85b6-d27422650fd5_singlePage.html

The Obama administration secretly won permission from a surveillance court in 2011 to reverse restrictions on the National Security Agencys use of intercepted phone calls and e-mails, permitting the agency to search deliberately for Americans communications in its massive databases, according to interviews with government officials and recently declassified material.

In addition, the court extended the length of time that the NSA is allowed to retain intercepted U.S. communications from five years to six years and more under special circumstances, according to the documents, which include a recently released 2011 opinion by U.S. District Judge John D. Bates, then chief judge of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court.
That court is going to tear the Constitution to pieces if Congress doesn't get a handle on it. The idea that a secret court can overturn the public courts and rewrite law in secret is disgusting. It's a one-stop shop for the executive branch to collect blank checks.

 
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/obama-administration-had-restrictions-on-nsa-reversed-in-2011/2013/09/07/c26ef658-0fe5-11e3-85b6-d27422650fd5_singlePage.html

The Obama administration secretly won permission from a surveillance court in 2011 to reverse restrictions on the National Security Agencys use of intercepted phone calls and e-mails, permitting the agency to search deliberately for Americans communications in its massive databases, according to interviews with government officials and recently declassified material.

In addition, the court extended the length of time that the NSA is allowed to retain intercepted U.S. communications from five years to six years and more under special circumstances, according to the documents, which include a recently released 2011 opinion by U.S. District Judge John D. Bates, then chief judge of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court.
That court is going to tear the Constitution to pieces if Congress doesn't get a handle on it. The idea that a secret court can overturn the public courts and rewrite law in secret is disgusting. It's a one-stop shop for the executive branch to collect blank checks.
:goodposting: :goodposting:I'd add that the political party that happens to hold the presidency should be immaterial. We need our legislature to stand up and fight for us here.

 
So I've been thinking about this in great detail this weekend. This issue has never been of great interest to me. It's not something I've felt passionate about one way or the other. But on the other hand, it is rather unique that of all the political issues I've debated in this forum, this is the only one in which I find myself nearly completely alone. Everybody here seems to think I'm an idiot, or ignorant, or a troll, or crazy. It's been suggested that I be put on ignore.

What really troubles me are the reactions of Slapdash and Rich Conway. I disagree with them on a host of issues, and Slapdash doesn't seem to like me at all, but I consider the two of them among the most intelligent people in this forum. And they seem to agree with everyone else that I am not just wrong on this issue but idiotic or crazy as well. That makes me think: if two such smart people feel this way am I really missing something here?

After thinking about it at length, my answer is: dammit, no. I am NOT missing anything. The NSA is collecting data at an incredibly large rate. It may or may not be a violation of the 4th Amendment, but there is a logical reason for what they are doing. I think it's an acceptable price to pay to fight terrorism. I also believe that none of the information collected will be used in such a way as to interfere with our private lives (at least, in any manner that we will ever be aware of.) Every new revelation is basically the same: they're collecting this, they're collecting that. There may be instances of NSA employees reading stuff they shouldn't, and of course THAT is troubling. But we are also told that security measures are in place to prevent this from happening. In any case, there are no instances that I'm aware of that the information collected is being used for nefarious purposes. I STRONGLY doubt that, outside of anecdotes that will no doubt be reported from time to time, there ever will be.

When I use the word "anecdote" I am NOT referring to the collection or storage of information, only the use of it for wrongful purposes. I get that some (most) of you regard simply the collection of the information as wrongful. I do not. I submit to you that none of your lives will EVER be affected by this. What I mean by "affected" is that the government comes to your door to question you, or uses the information against you in a negative way. Just the collection of the information in itself is not affecting you. It is the proverbial tree falling in the empty forest. If you didn't read about it after the Snowden revelations, you'd never have been aware of it. And for all it will change your life, you might as well never be aware of it. To 99.99% of us, it's absolutely meaningless. And to the very few people that it WILL affect, in most cases, hopefully, it's justified.

So I'm sorry but that's what I think. I wish it were otherwise, because I don't particularly enjoy being called an idiot or crazy or being put on ignore. I don't like earning the disrespect of people whom I respect. But I can't help what I think.

If any of you want to discuss what I have written here on a reasonable basis, I'd be happy to do so. I participate in these threads because I enjoy good conversation and debate. But I'm not going to respond to any posts that want to call me idiotic or crazy. I've had enough of that.

 

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