Vernon Davis... (1 Viewer)

[Warpig]

For those of us with ESPN the magazine subscriptions;

Has anyone noticed the picture on the back of this months mag? It's got Vernon Davis in an ad for EAS supplements (something about being a train). Anyway, if you look at the picture closely you will see signs of possible steroid use! Seriously.

He has what looks like acne on his shoulders and arms (as well as his face somewhat), stretch marks on his shoulders which indicate either rapid weight gain or rapid weight loss, he is very vascular as well. I mean he looks like a specimen and it's impressive, but I've known guys that were on the juice and they all had these same signs. What is the NFL's stance on steroid use and do they do it randomy or does everyone have to be tested prior to entry to the NFL?

(roids)

 

[Silverbacks]

 

[King of the Jungle]

That would explain why he has been mixing it up with people in camp on a regular basis. "Roid Rage" is awesome.

 

[BroncoFreak_2K3]

 

[Tough As Nails]

This just in...NFL players use HGH. LOTS of NFL players use HGH.

 

[Warpig]

http://www.eas.com/protips/vernondavis.aspThis is the link to his advertisement, but it doesn't have the picture I'm talking about. You would have to have the ESPN magazine to see it. This link shows how buff he is but it's not close enough to see the signs I mentioned earlier. He truly appears to be a freak...BENCH PRESSED 460 LBS?!?!? Oh yeah...he's juicin'.

 

[ShaqAttaq]

vernon davis @ EAS

 

[Rev]

Davis has the Sterling Sharpe build, only stronger. EAS probably signed him as soon as he got drafted just to project the image that their powder made him buff.

But I doubt you can chalk his build up to steroids or even suppliments. God had gifted some people with marvellous bodies, and despite the fact that I lift 6 hours a week and blow way too much on GNC suppliments, I aint one of them.

 

[King of the Jungle]

Davis has the Sterling Sharpe build, only stronger. EAS probably signed him as soon as he got drafted just to project the image that their powder made him buff.

But I doubt you can chalk his build up to steroids or even suppliments. God had gifted some people with marvellous bodies, and despite the fact that I lift 6 hours a week and blow way too much on GNC suppliments, I aint one of them.

RevI am getting back into lifting again, have you found any supplements that seem to help?

Nice dynasty team for a 12 teamer. What draft picks do you have for 06?

 

[Chase Stuart]

Davis has the Sterling Sharpe build, only stronger. EAS probably signed him as soon as he got drafted just to project the image that their powder made him buff.

But I doubt you can chalk his build up to steroids or even suppliments. God had gifted some people with marvellous bodies, and despite the fact that I lift 6 hours a week and blow way too much on GNC suppliments, I aint one of them.

I don't think there's a person in the history of the world that could bench 460, jump 42" and run a 4.38 40 without using supplements.

 

[Warpig]

Davis has the Sterling Sharpe build, only stronger. EAS probably signed him as soon as he got drafted just to project the image that their powder made him buff.

But I doubt you can chalk his build up to steroids or even suppliments. God had gifted some people with marvellous bodies, and despite the fact that I lift 6 hours a week and blow way too much on GNC suppliments, I aint one of them.

I know there are certain people that are blessed with the ability to shred and get awesome muscular detail ( I used to be 195 lbs of twisted steal and sex appeal ). But what raises a red flag for me about Davis is the acne on his shoulders. That is one of the biggest signs of steroid use. I used to work out in a gym down in northern Florida back in the early 90's and we would always have some of the WWF wrestlers come in there before a match. Worked out with the likes of Sid Vicious, Ricky the Dragon Steamboat, Arn Anderson to name a few. With the exception of Ricky, the other guys had purplish backs with little acne bumps all over. Hell, even Sid told us he was juicing! Is acne one of the signs of HGH usage? I don't know if there are any signs of HGH usage. Look at the guys numbers: bench press 460 lbs, 40 inch vert, power clean 355! I wish we could get some comparative pictures of him from maybe a year or 2 ago to now. I can write off the stretch marks (maybe he put on alot of muscle mass in a short amount of time...still suspicious though). If that is all natural though...it's amazing.

 

[King of the Jungle]

Davis has the Sterling Sharpe build, only stronger. EAS probably signed him as soon as he got drafted just to project the image that their powder made him buff.

But I doubt you can chalk his build up to steroids or even suppliments. God had gifted some people with marvellous bodies, and despite the fact that I lift 6 hours a week and blow way too much on GNC suppliments, I aint one of them.

I know there are certain people that are blessed with the ability to shred and get awesome muscular detail ( I used to be 195 lbs of twisted steal and sex appeal ). But what raises a red flag for me about Davis is the acne on his shoulders. That is one of the biggest signs of steroid use. I used to work out in a gym down in northern Florida back in the early 90's and we would always have some of the WWF wrestlers come in there before a match. Worked out with the likes of Sid Vicious, Ricky the Dragon Steamboat, Arn Anderson to name a few. With the exception of Ricky, the other guys had purplish backs with little acne bumps all over. Hell, even Sid told us he was juicing! Is acne one of the signs of HGH usage? I don't know if there are any signs of HGH usage. Look at the guys numbers: bench press 460 lbs, 40 inch vert, power clean 355! I wish we could get some comparative pictures of him from maybe a year or 2 ago to now. I can write off the stretch marks (maybe he put on alot of muscle mass in a short amount of time...still suspicious though). If that is all natural though...it's amazing.

I got stretch marks the year after high school when I went from 145-180 (no roids). In regards to the acne, maybe the guy doesnt wash?!

 

[sanders2021]

Davis has the Sterling Sharpe build, only stronger.  EAS probably signed him as soon as he got drafted just to project the image that their powder made him buff.

  But I doubt you can chalk his build up to steroids or even suppliments.  God had gifted some people with marvellous bodies, and despite the fact that I lift 6 hours a week and blow way too much on GNC suppliments, I aint one of them.

I know there are certain people that are blessed with the ability to shred and get awesome muscular detail ( I used to be 195 lbs of twisted steal and sex appeal ). But what raises a red flag for me about Davis is the acne on his shoulders. That is one of the biggest signs of steroid use. I used to work out in a gym down in northern Florida back in the early 90's and we would always have some of the WWF wrestlers come in there before a match. Worked out with the likes of Sid Vicious, Ricky the Dragon Steamboat, Arn Anderson to name a few. With the exception of Ricky, the other guys had purplish backs with little acne bumps all over. Hell, even Sid told us he was juicing! Is acne one of the signs of HGH usage? I don't know if there are any signs of HGH usage. Look at the guys numbers: bench press 460 lbs, 40 inch vert, power clean 355! I wish we could get some comparative pictures of him from maybe a year or 2 ago to now. I can write off the stretch marks (maybe he put on alot of muscle mass in a short amount of time...still suspicious though). If that is all natural though...it's amazing.

I have acne all over my back and I'm not juicin' up. Just have acne. It happens.

 

[Warpig]

I got stretch marks the year after high school when I went from 145-180 (no roids). In regards to the acne, maybe the guy doesnt wash?!

That would explain his dreads! :X

 

[Uruk-Hai]

Here's a link from just before Davis started his sophmore season at MD. He's in uniform (so you can't see his whole body), but it states that he benched 425, squatted 615, ran a 4.5, & had a 38" vert.

 

[Kirby]

Davis has the Sterling Sharpe build, only stronger.  EAS probably signed him as soon as he got drafted just to project the image that their powder made him buff.

  But I doubt you can chalk his build up to steroids or even suppliments.  God had gifted some people with marvellous bodies, and despite the fact that I lift 6 hours a week and blow way too much on GNC suppliments, I aint one of them.

I know there are certain people that are blessed with the ability to shred and get awesome muscular detail ( I used to be 195 lbs of twisted steal and sex appeal ). But what raises a red flag for me about Davis is the acne on his shoulders. That is one of the biggest signs of steroid use. I used to work out in a gym down in northern Florida back in the early 90's and we would always have some of the WWF wrestlers come in there before a match. Worked out with the likes of Sid Vicious, Ricky the Dragon Steamboat, Arn Anderson to name a few. With the exception of Ricky, the other guys had purplish backs with little acne bumps all over. Hell, even Sid told us he was juicing! Is acne one of the signs of HGH usage? I don't know if there are any signs of HGH usage. Look at the guys numbers: bench press 460 lbs, 40 inch vert, power clean 355! I wish we could get some comparative pictures of him from maybe a year or 2 ago to now. I can write off the stretch marks (maybe he put on alot of muscle mass in a short amount of time...still suspicious though). If that is all natural though...it's amazing.

I have acne all over my back and I'm not juicin' up. Just have acne. It happens.

Me too. It's not the steroids that cause it.. it's the high level of test that causes it. It just means you are extra manly.

 

[HMH]

vernon davis @ EAS

that website had me until i saw Matt Hasslebacks name listed...dude's definitely not juicing.

 

[Sabertooth]

This guy has flop written all over him.

 

[Chase Stuart]

This guy has flop written all over him.

Because small, slow, weak and short guys dominate the NFL??

 

[derek19]

Davis has the Sterling Sharpe build, only stronger. EAS probably signed him as soon as he got drafted just to project the image that their powder made him buff.

But I doubt you can chalk his build up to steroids or even suppliments. God had gifted some people with marvellous bodies, and despite the fact that I lift 6 hours a week and blow way too much on GNC suppliments, I aint one of them.

I know there are certain people that are blessed with the ability to shred and get awesome muscular detail ( I used to be 195 lbs of twisted steal and sex appeal ). But what raises a red flag for me about Davis is the acne on his shoulders. That is one of the biggest signs of steroid use. I used to work out in a gym down in northern Florida back in the early 90's and we would always have some of the WWF wrestlers come in there before a match. Worked out with the likes of Sid Vicious, Ricky the Dragon Steamboat, Arn Anderson to name a few. With the exception of Ricky, the other guys had purplish backs with little acne bumps all over. Hell, even Sid told us he was juicing! Is acne one of the signs of HGH usage? I don't know if there are any signs of HGH usage. Look at the guys numbers: bench press 460 lbs, 40 inch vert, power clean 355! I wish we could get some comparative pictures of him from maybe a year or 2 ago to now. I can write off the stretch marks (maybe he put on alot of muscle mass in a short amount of time...still suspicious though). If that is all natural though...it's amazing.

I got stretch marks the year after high school when I went from 145-180 (no roids). In regards to the acne, maybe the guy doesnt wash?!

I'm in the same boat. Damn metabolism!!!!!!!

 

[derek19]

This guy has flop written all over him.

Care to explain why you think this?

 

[CA_7]

Between all the talk of roids and technology don't you think they would airbush out any tell-tale signs if he were truely on roids?

Hell, since it is an advertisement for EAS, they may have airbrushed his build to make him looker bigger than he really is.

 

[King of the Jungle]

Here's a link from just before Davis started his sophmore season at MD. He's in uniform (so you can't see his whole body), but it states that he benched 425, squatted 615, ran a 4.5, & had a 38" vert.

Definitely built in the photo, but no where near what he is now. But I am pretty sure he punched in at the weight room several times between then and now. Some people are just built to be built. The body can go through amazing transformation if done correctly: diet, weight training, cardio, supplements, and genes in his case. I would not label him as a steriod user, but would not be shocked if it came up.

 

[Weiner Dog]

For those of us with ESPN the magazine subscriptions;

Has anyone noticed the picture on the back of this months mag?  It's got Vernon Davis in an ad for EAS supplements (something about being a train).  Anyway, if you look at the picture closely you will see signs of possible steroid use!  Seriously.

He has what looks like acne on his shoulders and arms (as well as his face somewhat), stretch marks on his shoulders which indicate either rapid weight gain or rapid weight loss, he is very vascular as well.  I mean he looks like a specimen and it's impressive, but I've known guys that were on the juice and they all had these same signs.  What is the NFL's stance on steroid use and do they do it randomy or does everyone have to be tested prior to entry to the NFL? 

  (roids)

Not to be nit-picky, but I'm fairly certain vascularity is decreased with steroid use. Most steroids cause the body to retain water and decrease valcularity.The body-builders you see on TV have rapidly increased their cardo, decreased their water intake, taken "water pills" to decrease water weight, avoided salt and increased sugar intake prior to competition to gain the vascularity you see during the competition.

I do agree, however, that the Vernon Davis can do things 99.9999999% of the humans on the planet cannot. This will cause the discussion of steroids to surface. The same discussion happens in baseball (Bonds, Pujols, et al).

 

[Sabertooth]

This guy has flop written all over him.

Because small, slow, weak and short guys dominate the NFL??

Jermaine Wiggins down?

 

[Uruk-Hai]

Still haven't found any early photos, but coming out of high school he was listed at 6'4" 220 lbs

 

[On The Rocks]

vernon davis @ EAS

i could kick his ###

 

[KnowledgeReignsSupreme]

This just in...NFL players use HGH. LOTS of NFL players use HGH.

I don't know why this comes as such a huge surprise to people. I'm sure 75% of NFL players are on some kind of "steroid".

 

[On The Rocks]

vernon davis @ EAS

i could kick his ###

i didn't know "dog" would be filtered out.

 

[Chase Stuart]

For those of us with ESPN the magazine subscriptions;

Has anyone noticed the picture on the back of this months mag? It's got Vernon Davis in an ad for EAS supplements (something about being a train). Anyway, if you look at the picture closely you will see signs of possible steroid use! Seriously.

He has what looks like acne on his shoulders and arms (as well as his face somewhat), stretch marks on his shoulders which indicate either rapid weight gain or rapid weight loss, he is very vascular as well. I mean he looks like a specimen and it's impressive, but I've known guys that were on the juice and they all had these same signs. What is the NFL's stance on steroid use and do they do it randomy or does everyone have to be tested prior to entry to the NFL?

(roids)

Not to be nit-picky, but I'm fairly certain vascularity is decreased with steroid use. Most steroids cause the body to retain water and decrease valcularity.The body-builders you see on TV have rapidly increased their cardo, decreased their water intake, taken "water pills" to decrease water weight, avoided salt and increased sugar intake prior to competition to gain the vascularity you see during the competition.

I do agree, however, that the Vernon Davis can do things 99.9999999% of the humans on the planet cannot. This will cause the discussion of steroids to surface. The same discussion happens in baseball (Bonds, Pujols, et al).

However, it's pretty laughable to compare the physiques of Davis to guys like Bonds or Pujols. Davis is a significantly better athlete.

 

[Sabertooth]

This guy has flop written all over him.

Care to explain why you think this?

Sure. Waaaaaaaaaaaaay too much hype. It's pretty tough for a guy like Jason Pociask to be a flop because nobody has heard of him. He seemed to be a phenom who really saw his stock soar after the season. A "workout" warrior as it were. If all it took was a great physique to excel, David Boston would be a perennial pro bowler. There is more to it than that.

Plus he seems to think he is going to revolutionize the position. Well, if I had a nickel for every guy that shot his mouth, I'd be a millionaire. He hasn't had to line up across from an NFL linebacker yet.

But mostly it's just a hunch.

 

[Warpig]

This guy has flop written all over him.

Care to explain why you think this?

Sure. Waaaaaaaaaaaaay too much hype. It's pretty tough for a guy like Jason Pociask to be a flop because nobody has heard of him. He seemed to be a phenom who really saw his stock soar after the season. A "workout" warrior as it were. If all it took was a great physique to excel, David Boston would be a perennial pro bowler. There is more to it than that.

Plus he seems to think he is going to revolutionize the position. Well, if I had a nickel for every guy that shot his mouth, I'd be a millionaire. He hasn't had to line up across from an NFL linebacker yet.

But mostly it's just a hunch.

And let's not forget that he's juiced up and his heart, kidneys, and liver could all explode at any moment on the field.

 

[CalBear]

Whether or not he is juicing, a team with the #32 offense and #32 defense taking a TE with the #6 overall pick in a good draft is an obvious mistake.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Whether or not he is juicing, a team with the #32 offense and #32 defense taking a TE with the #6 overall pick in a good draft is an obvious mistake.

The top 3 TEs in receiving yards were all on teams with winning records and mediocre to below average defenses. I don't think it's a coincidence.

 

[King of the Jungle]

Whether or not he is juicing, a team with the #32 offense and #32 defense taking a TE with the #6 overall pick in a good draft is an obvious mistake.

I disagree. I think to further promote ASmiths growth, they needed to grab the top offensive weapon at the top of of the draft. I think he will have much more of an impact for Smith than anyone that they could have drafted at that spot.

 

[derek19]

Whether or not he is juicing, a team with the #32 offense and #32 defense taking a TE with the #6 overall pick in a good draft is an obvious mistake.

A mistake? Look at Brees and Eli. Brees sucked until Gates exploded on to the scene. Eli is young and Shockey has helped him in his growth. Davis will do the same for Smith. With Davis's athletic ability, it would of been stupid to pass him up. Almost as stupid as the Texans passing on bush.

 

[Neo]

This just in...NFL players use HGH. LOTS of NFL players use HGH.

I don't know why this comes as such a huge surprise to people. I'm sure 75% of NFL players are on some kind of "steroid".

I guess ignorance is bliss.

 

[Weiner Dog]

For those of us with ESPN the magazine subscriptions;

Has anyone noticed the picture on the back of this months mag?  It's got Vernon Davis in an ad for EAS supplements (something about being a train).  Anyway, if you look at the picture closely you will see signs of possible steroid use!  Seriously.

He has what looks like acne on his shoulders and arms (as well as his face somewhat), stretch marks on his shoulders which indicate either rapid weight gain or rapid weight loss, he is very vascular as well.  I mean he looks like a specimen and it's impressive, but I've known guys that were on the juice and they all had these same signs.  What is the NFL's stance on steroid use and do they do it randomy or does everyone have to be tested prior to entry to the NFL? 

  (roids)

Not to be nit-picky, but I'm fairly certain vascularity is decreased with steroid use. Most steroids cause the body to retain water and decrease valcularity.The body-builders you see on TV have rapidly increased their cardo, decreased their water intake, taken "water pills" to decrease water weight, avoided salt and increased sugar intake prior to competition to gain the vascularity you see during the competition.

I do agree, however, that the Vernon Davis can do things 99.9999999% of the humans on the planet cannot. This will cause the discussion of steroids to surface. The same discussion happens in baseball (Bonds, Pujols, et al).

However, it's pretty laughable to compare the physiques of Davis to guys like Bonds or Pujols. Davis is a significantly better athlete.

Who's comparing physiques?? I simply chose other "top-shelf" athletes wrapped in steroid-talk from other sports.

 

[cstu]

This guy has flop written all over him.

Care to explain why you think this?

Sure. Waaaaaaaaaaaaay too much hype. It's pretty tough for a guy like Jason Pociask to be a flop because nobody has heard of him. He seemed to be a phenom who really saw his stock soar after the season. A "workout" warrior as it were. If all it took was a great physique to excel, David Boston would be a perennial pro bowler. There is more to it than that.

Plus he seems to think he is going to revolutionize the position. Well, if I had a nickel for every guy that shot his mouth, I'd be a millionaire. He hasn't had to line up across from an NFL linebacker yet.

But mostly it's just a hunch.

So you just love to go against what everyone thinks right? Bet you thought Lebron was going to be bust too.

 

[cstu]

Whether or not he is juicing, a team with the #32 offense and #32 defense taking a TE with the #6 overall pick in a good draft is an obvious mistake.

It's also the team with the #1 overall QB who looked completely lost last year without a reliable target to go to. It was their only choice.

 

[CalBear]

Whether or not he is juicing, a team with the #32 offense and #32 defense taking a TE with the #6 overall pick in a good draft is an obvious mistake.

It's also the team with the #1 overall QB who looked completely lost last year without a reliable target to go to. It was their only choice.

Trying to cover up your last drafting mistake by making another drafting mistake is how you become the Detroit Lions.

 

[King of the Jungle]

Whether or not he is juicing, a team with the #32 offense and #32 defense taking a TE with the #6 overall pick in a good draft is an obvious mistake.

It's also the team with the #1 overall QB who looked completely lost last year without a reliable target to go to. It was their only choice.

Trying to cover up your last drafting mistake by making another drafting mistake is how you become the Detroit Lions.

Ouch! I am not sure Peyton Manning during his rookie year would have had more succes than Smith did with that crew. I am not calling Smith "peyton", I just think it is too early to pass judgement on the young fella.Detroit Lions fan.

 

[cstu]

Whether or not he is juicing, a team with the #32 offense and #32 defense taking a TE with the #6 overall pick in a good draft is an obvious mistake.

It's also the team with the #1 overall QB who looked completely lost last year without a reliable target to go to. It was their only choice.

Trying to cover up your last drafting mistake by making another drafting mistake is how you become the Detroit Lions.

Last time I checked QB's need guys around him to make plays. I guess Emmitt was a drafting mistake to cover up Aikman.

 

[CalBear]

Ouch! I am not sure Peyton Manning during his rookie year would have had more succes than Smith did with that crew. I am not calling Smith "peyton", I just think it is too early to pass judgement on the young fella.

Detroit Lions fan.

What they should have done is kept Rattay at QB (who was at least passable), let Smith learn the system before throwing him to the wolves, and concentrated on building the team as a whole. Even after they let Rattay go, it would be more help to the team to fill one of the other gaping needs with a quality player than to try to sink more cost into Smith. And even after drafting Davis, it would be better to bring in a real veteran QB like Collins, Brooks, or McNair, instead of purposfully targeting a veteran QB (Dilfer) who is bad enough to not cause a QB controversy. I'm not saying the Niners should have drafted Matt Leinart, but I think drafting Leinart is more defensible than drafting Davis. And Huff, Sims, or Ngata all seem better to me than any offensive player for the Niners at that point in the draft.

It's just like the Joey Harrington situation, where they brought in three different first-round WRs to "give him some weapons". I'll give Harrington credit, he outlived two coaches and even found another job. But the Lions continued to suck, and the Niners will, too.

 

[Rev]

Davis has the Sterling Sharpe build, only stronger.  EAS probably signed him as soon as he got drafted just to project the image that their powder made him buff.

  But I doubt you can chalk his build up to steroids or even suppliments.  God had gifted some people with marvellous bodies, and despite the fact that I lift 6 hours a week and blow way too much on GNC suppliments, I aint one of them.

RevI am getting back into lifting again, have you found any supplements that seem to help?

Nice dynasty team for a 12 teamer. What draft picks do you have for 06?

I take a whey protein suppliment that I get at GNC. It has much less colesterol than GNC's own brand. It's called: "ON's 100% natural whey" and if you have a gold card and there's a sale you can get it for less than $30. Thanks for the compliment. I actually have a nice set of picks this year: I have the 1.2, 1.4, 1.5, 1.6, and 1.12! I'm liking my options!

 

[derek19]

Thanks for the compliment. I actually have a nice set of picks this year: I have the 1.2, 1.4, 1.5, 1.6, and 1.12! I'm liking my options!

 

[CalBear]

Last time I checked QB's need guys around him to make plays. I guess Emmitt was a drafting mistake to cover up Aikman.

Emmitt filled a need. The year before Emmitt was drafted, the leading rusher for the Cowboys had 446 yards. The Niners have a TE who's already finished #4 in the league in receptions and yardage, despite getting thrown to by Rattay and Ken Dorsey. Eric Johnson may not be "the next Gates" but he's perfectly servicable as a TE target.

 

[derek19]

Last time I checked QB's need guys around him to make plays. I guess Emmitt was a drafting mistake to cover up Aikman.

Emmitt filled a need. The year before Emmitt was drafted, the leading rusher for the Cowboys had 446 yards. The Niners have a TE who's already finished #4 in the league in receptions and yardage, despite getting thrown to by Rattay and Ken Dorsey. Eric Johnson may not be "the next Gates" but he's perfectly servicable as a TE target.

The past two years, EJ has been plagued with injuries. Last year he missed the whole year. Kind of undependable if you ask me. I'm not saying he's not good, just not dependable.

 

[Big Score]

Last time I checked QB's need guys around him to make plays.  I guess Emmitt was a drafting mistake to cover up Aikman.

Emmitt filled a need. The year before Emmitt was drafted, the leading rusher for the Cowboys had 446 yards. The Niners have a TE who's already finished #4 in the league in receptions and yardage, despite getting thrown to by Rattay and Ken Dorsey. Eric Johnson may not be "the next Gates" but he's perfectly servicable as a TE target.

Health & Johnson are like oil & water.If a player cannot stay healthy, they are not a servicable option.

 

[CalBear]

Look, yes, Johnson was injured in 2005 (but played 16 games in 2004), and maybe it would have been nice to pick up a new TE, but the last thing the 2005 Niners team screamed was "MAN, WE NEED A NEW TIGHT END!" The WRs were awful (and the best one left), the QBs were awful (and the best one left), the defensive line was awful (and the best DL left), and the defensive backfield was awful (and the best LB left). The only two positions on the entire field where the niners have players with any kind of proven production in their past were RB and TE. And, they could have had Marcedes Lewis with their second first-round pick if they really cared about TE.