*** VICK-the man, the QB, the finger *** (1 Viewer)

[Bowbiejuke]

Question: Has a team ever lead the league in rushing and passing, for that matter ever finished first in rushing and then in the top 10 in passing. If so this statement makes sense, if not then its total BS.

I think it would be hard for a pro football team to consistenly run for 200 yards per game, while passing for 300 yards plus/game also. The Falcons run the ball 35 times a game only giving them about 20 passing plays per game. Which means each pass play would need to avg 15 yards per pass to avg 300 yards per game. Not even Manning, Brady, Palmer put up a number like that.

St. Louis in 1999 may have been close, but they also had Warner,Faulk, Holt, Bruce not exactly Vick,Dunn,Jenkins,White.

 

[rhawkins68]

I think there are four groups of people when it comes to Vick1) pure Vick haters, hate how he plays, feel his talent is crap, think he should be a rb, and throw him under the bus2) people who don't hate Vick, but do not watch near enough of his games, so they use replays, box scores and professional commentary to formulate their opinions, and throw him under the bus3) people who do not think Vick is a great passer but also watch his games, and see his talent and see how little support he is actually getting from his team, so they defend him from the bus4) Vick lovers people who are blind and blame him for nothing (bad passes, fumbles, untimely sacks) these people actually get in front of the busI find myself clearly as a 3 but Vick haters group 3 and 4 together. I blame Vick for the Detroit loss, I blame he and Knapp for the Cleveland loss. Yes Vick fumbled on their last possesion, but the possesion before that the Falcons were 4th and 1 on the 12 and Knapp call's for a fade into the corner of the endzone. It is also known that Knapp gives no audible power. You think Vick can't run for a yard, please.

 

[Big Score]

In other words, it is indeed impossible for a high arcing bomb to be thrown low.

*sigh* Thrown low or WR getting back late the ball is still causing the WR to be in a low position to catch the ball. If I catch the play again I'll verify the positioning of the WR.

This is just double talk gobbeldy ####. It is a physical impossibility for a ball falling out of the sky, to be thrown low. Short yes, but not low.

You don't need to catch the play again for verification.

Just review the multiple posts by many others who saw the play much clearer than you did, or just ask someone who saw the incessant replays of it yesterday, last night, today & leading up to Monday Night Football.

You'll understand some day.

I doubt it. To be honest. I don't think anyone can understand you here. How you can continue to maintain that a ball falling out of the sky, can be a low throw, is just silly.

Short, yes

Low, no

Again, this is why it's difficult to take anything you say seriously.

Position of WR. You'll get it eventually.http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb.php

Edit: *yawn* I'm done with this. I miss the old board days.

The position of a WR can tell you if a deep high bomb was thrown short or not, but unfortunately for your ridiculous argument, the laws of physics dictates that it is a physical impossiblity to throw a deep, high bomb, and it be low.You even said so yourself right here;

As for a high arcing pass being low. If the WR is coming back to the ball then it is entirly possible for the WR to be in a bad (low) position to catch the ball. Not really that the pass was thrown low but the WR got back to the ball late.

*yawn* I'm equally done with this. I too miss Cheatsheets.net, though I can't say that I really remember you from back then.

 

[J R]

Ok they both yawned, so maybe it's all over, but...

rhawkins, I don't think you can just cite FootballOutsiders' QB stats and settle the argument because you still haven't separated whether it's Vick or it's the WRs. To illustrate, look at their WR page, where they write:

"We cannot yet fully separate the performance of a receiver from the performance of his quarterback. Be aware that one will affect the other."

And here's how the Atlanta WRs rank by DVOA:

Jenkins -14.1% 63/74

Lelie -15.2% 65/74

White -23.6% 71/74

I do however find it interesting that Crumpler shows up as +12.7%. That at least tells me that FO's numbers fit most people's perceptions of Atlanta's WRs.

Also, FO's stats sort out passes and rushes on the QB page. So, Vick ranks by DPAR as the 32nd passer (30th and 6th by DVOA - that 6th seems absurd to me just intuitively) but also as the 1st rusher. This doesn't really solve our problem either as most people understand Vick to be a great runner and to have poor passing stats. The stats still don't explain how much Vick's WRs are bringing him down.

 

[MrNiceGuy]

Anyone else think this is a ploy (planned by someone to be speculated on later) to get Vick off the Falcons. Vick is/was the darling of Atlanta, and there was no way they could trade Vick if the people still loved him. Ticket sales would plummet.

So Vick flips off Atlanta, Atlanta fans start disassociating themselves with him as an icon, and then they can get rid of him.

Basically, I predict Vick will be off the Falcons by next season.

 

[Despyzer]

I think there are four groups of people when it comes to Vick

You left out the group that thinks that Vick has enormous talent that doesn't translate well to his position and are tired of everyone claiming he is the football messiah and making a thousand excuses for him.

 

[ChampBailey24]

I think there are four groups of people when it comes to Vick1) pure Vick haters, hate how he plays, feel his talent is crap, think he should be a rb, and throw him under the bus2) people who don't hate Vick, but do not watch near enough of his games, so they use replays, box scores and professional commentary to formulate their opinions, and throw him under the bus3) people who do not think Vick is a great passer but also watch his games, and see his talent and see how little support he is actually getting from his team, so they defend him from the bus4) Vick lovers people who are blind and blame him for nothing (bad passes, fumbles, untimely sacks) these people actually get in front of the busI find myself clearly as a 3 but Vick haters group 3 and 4 together. I blame Vick for the Detroit loss, I blame he and Knapp for the Cleveland loss. Yes Vick fumbled on their last possesion, but the possesion before that the Falcons were 4th and 1 on the 12 and Knapp call's for a fade into the corner of the endzone. It is also known that Knapp gives no audible power. You think Vick can't run for a yard, please.

Personally, I fit the number 3 category. I know he'll never be a pro-bowler passer but with good WRs, he'd be between the 15th-20th passer instead of being the 25th. Sunday, with good WRs, Vick could have been around 14-15/24 for 150-175 yards with 1 or 2 TDs. That's a solid showing considering he didn't have any INT. Add his 166 rushing yards and you have a great performance. Put Vick in Cincinnati and the amount of haters would diminish drastically.

 

[Dancing Bear]

I watched nearly every snap [missed one or two getting a cold frosty beverage], of the Atlanta vs New Orleans game.

Brees had 1 dropped ball [i think by Conwell]. Every receiver caught the balls thrown anywhere near to them. There were many which were spectacular! Horn's on the sideline was terrific!

By my count, Vick had 6 dropped balls. By contrast it seemed like every Atlanta receiver was dropping passes. Three of these guys were first round picks!

It was really incredible! Especially the drop where the TV panned back to Mora on his knees in dis-belief!

 

[AsimoV]

Good QB's have varying speed on their passes, ranging from bullet to soft lob. Vick has only got the bullet variety. Don't get me wrong, as a receiver, you need to catch a ball regardless of how much zip is on it, but Vick could certainly be doing more to help them. We're not talking about Marvin Harrison or Chad Johnson here. The price you pay for blowing 130 mill on a QB is budget cuts at other positions, hence White, Jenkins and Lelie. There were 3 balls the receivers definitely should have caught yesterday, 2 that were a combination of bad hands and poor placement, and 2 that Vick simply rifled unnecessarily. On a similar note, drops plagued Seattle all of last year. They were still able to make it to the superbowl.

One other thing good QB's have that Vick lacks is leadership. Vick constantly lays the blame partially on himself, but MOSTLY on the WR's and OL. If your QB was bashing you, would you feel like making that extra effort? Would you be willing to go across the middle and expose yourself to a shot from a prowling safety? In a perfect world, receivers would do it regardless of who's at the helm; it's their job. In the real world, Tom Brady has guys that will take a big hit for him because he's selfless and ALWAYS takes the blame for losses. Vick needs to learn to do this if he wants his offense to have any faith in him.

The guy is obviously a tremendous talent and could still become an average to above-average passer. But play time is over for Vick. He's a veteran in a leadership position now, and he needs to start acting like it.

 

[rhawkins68]

Ok they both yawned, so maybe it's all over, but...rhawkins, I don't think you can just cite FootballOutsiders' QB stats and settle the argument because you still haven't separated whether it's Vick or it's the WRs. To illustrate, look at their WR page, where they write:"We cannot yet fully separate the performance of a receiver from the performance of his quarterback. Be aware that one will affect the other."And here's how the Atlanta WRs rank by DVOA:Jenkins -14.1% 63/74Lelie -15.2% 65/74White -23.6% 71/74I do however find it interesting that Crumpler shows up as +12.7%. That at least tells me that FO's numbers fit most people's perceptions of Atlanta's WRs.Also, FO's stats sort out passes and rushes on the QB page. So, Vick ranks by DPAR as the 32nd passer (30th and 6th by DVOA - that 6th seems absurd to me just intuitively) but also as the 1st rusher. This doesn't really solve our problem either as most people understand Vick to be a great runner and to have poor passing stats. The stats still don't explain how much Vick's WRs are bringing him down.

I agree that it goes both ways. My point has always been it's a team game and the Atlanta issues are with the Team.When Vick has a huge day it's all Vick when Vick has a bad day it's everyone but Vick. That's the stance that is wrong.There have been instances this year where the QB and WR where on the same page and it showed in the Games. Everyone knows these big games. Well believe it or not these are the same WR that play every week.My personal opinion on the plays and games I have seen are that the offense is not making the right reads. This causes Vick to have to try and make a play and lose faith in the WR's or when he does throw it the WR has to make a tougher catch than he should and Vick loses even more faith in his WR when they make the drop.On the WR side you have Vick making a play so the WR is now in the make a play mode and loses faith in the QB getting the ball to where it is supposed to be and instead having to work his way to the QB.It is impossible to tell unless you actually know the play that was called and the adjustments that are called at the line or reads that should be made. In other words without the play book and call sheet you are only guessing at who made the mistake.Edit: I figured I shold expand on one thing here. Once the trust in the system is gone the offense will break. The players must be able to go to the line knowing what to do and trusting the other 10 players.

 

[Big Score]

I agree that it goes both ways. My point has always been it's a team game and the Atlanta issues are with the Team.When Vick has a huge day it's all Vick when Vick has a bad day it's everyone but Vick. That's the stance that is wrong.

Really? I see far more posts on this board, like this one;

Vick is not a QB. I do admit they win with him, but its despite him, not because of him.

Lots of posts saying whenever the Falcons do well offensively, it was bacause of a total team effort, but whenever they lose, somehow the team concept tends to fade away and it quickly devolves into a Vick bashing fest.At least from what I've seen on this board, that's generally how it seems to go.

 

[Norseman]

Vick is likely to surpass 1,000 yards this season, and currently his average per carry is 9.2. Has there ever been a higher average for a 1,000 yard rusher in the NFL?

No. During the game yesterday they showed that stat. I believe the record they showed was about 8.7 ypc.

I looked it up. It is actually 8.44 yards per carry by Beattie Feathers, 1934 Chicago Bears.

 

[Despyzer]

Lots of posts saying whenever the Falcons do well offensively, it was bacause of a total team effort, but whenever they lose, somehow the team concept tends to fade away and it quickly devolves into a Vick bashing fest.

I guess it all depends on your perspective. I certainly see plenty of posts saying different things, but it seems to me that when Vick has a good day we hear how he has finally "arrived," but when he does bad it is always someone else's (usually the WRs') fault.Edit to add: This thread is a great example. Someone calls out Vick for flipping off his own fans. Jules quickly said something to the effect of "who are his fans going to blame this on?" which I thought was pretty ludicrious. Surely no one else is responsible for Vick's two midlle fingers but himself, and who could possibly deny that? Sure enough, two or three posts later, we hear how he was frustrated because his WRs dropped so many balls and the fans obviously incited that reaction. It gets a little hard to take sometimes.

 

[Big Score]

National Football League News WireATLANTA -- After watching the Atlanta Falcons lose theirfourth straight game, owner Arthur Blank grabbed a front-row seatin the interview room to listen in on what Jim Mora and MichaelVick had to say.Blank also pored over a stat sheet, whispering some thoughts tohis top lieutenant while trying to figure out how another seasonthat began with such promise has totally unraveled heading into thefinal month.This owner demands immediate results. If things don't turnaround over the next five weeks, the Falcons are certainly headedfor big changes -- starting with several members of Mora's staff andmaybe extending all the way to the head coach himself."Ever since I've been here, we've had high expectations,"Blank said. "We did not build this team to be .500. We thoughtthis team was capable of making a playoff run. Anytime you fallshort of that, it's disappointing."Technically, Atlanta (5-6) still has time to turns things aroundin the mediocre NFC, where 6-5 would be good enough for the wildcard if the season ended today.But after going 0-for-November, the Falcons are below .500 forthe first time in Mora's three-year tenure and giving off few signsof being a team that can pull out of its slide before it's toolate.Three of the losses during past month were by double-figuremargins -- the only exception being an inexcusable 17-13 home lossto woeful Cleveland (3-8). The Falcons were blown out 30-14 atDetroit, one of only two games the Lions have won this season. LastSunday, Atlanta was all but eliminated from the NFC West race by a31-13 loss to the Saints, who essentially have a three-game lead onthe Falcons when the tiebreaker is factored in.What makes this all the more troubling is just how familiar itseems.A year ago, coming off a giddy run to the NFC championship gamein Mora's rookie season as a head coach, the Falcons started 6-2and were thinking Super Bowl. They wound up losing six of theirlast eight, extending the 40-year-old franchise's inglorious streakof never having back-to-back winning seasons.Now, it's happening all over again. In one short month, theFalcons have gone from being 5-2 and angling for home-fieldadvantage in the playoffs to showing all the telltale signs of ateam in disarray.Early last week, Mora's father -- the longtime NFL coach of thesame name -- criticized Vick's passing skills and agreed that he's a"coach killer." As the quarterback headed toward the locker roomafter the loss to the Saints, he was heckled by some fans andresponded with an obscene gesture.As the face of the franchise, everything starts with Vick. Butthe blame for this downfall extends beyond No. 7.The offense is a mess, an incompatible juxtaposition ofcoordinator Greg Knapp's West Coast-style passing schemes and thezone-blocking tactics used by the guys up front, who answer to defacto line coach Alex Gibbs.Vick has never taken to Knapp's philosophy, which relies onshort drops and quick reads that seem ill-suited for a 6-footquarterback who has trouble seeing over his linemen and is moreeffective when he ad-libs. Vick is the 25th-rated quarterback inthe NFL and, most stunning, has never put up better numbers playingin Knapp's offense than he did in his one full season working withformer coach Dan Reeves.Meanwhile, the shadowy Gibbs -- who's technically a"consultant" -- prefers smaller, quicker linemen who'll carry outhis controversial blocking tactics in the running game but areleakier than a colander when it comes to pass blocking. Vick may bethe best running quarterback in NFL history, but he's still managedto get sacked 29 times playing behind a no-name group that has zeroPro Bowls on its collective resume.When Vick does get off a pass, tight end Alge Crumpler is aboutthe only reliable receiver on the team. Former first-round picksMichael Jenkins and Roddy White have been major disappointments.Ashley Lelie hasn't had the impact everyone expected when he cameto the Falcons in a trade for T.J. Duckett.Last week, Vick's receivers dropped five passes, the mostdamaging of those coming early in the fourth quarter when awide-open White let the ball slip from his hands at the New Orleans10 after the defender fell down. That snuffed the life out of theFalcons, who were down 21-13 at the time but totally fell apart therest of the way.Mora insists he's not planning any changes on his staff, butwhat else do you expect him to say about guys -- several of themclose friends -- who are still on the payroll? Clearly, Knapp andreceivers coach George Stewart are on shaky ground. And the Falconswouldn't be able to hire a competent replacement for Knapp as longas Gibbs is hanging around.If the Falcons do look for someone else to run the offense, thefirst priority is getting a coach who can take advantage of Vick'swondrous talents. This team has too much invested in No. 7 to giveup on him (sorry, all you Atlanta fans who want to give backup MattSchaub a chance).A new coordinator would certainly want to upgrade the protectorsup front and the guys who are paid to catch passes, not drop them.Also, there might be some philosophical changes, such as more deeppassing routes to capitalize on Vick's enormous arm strength(perhaps the strongest in the league, though his accuracy isclearly lacking).Mora got a contract extension before the season, but that meanslittle in the what-have-you-done-for-me-lately NFL. The Falconstouted their 45-year-old coach as one of the profession's risingstars after his first season, but Blank -- who prowls the sidelinesduring games a la Jerry Jones and takes an active role in personneldecisions -- shows all the signs of being an impatient boss."I believe we have the right folks in the building," Blanksaid in a tepid show of support for his coach. "They have thetalent and enthusiasm to get it done, but obviously we've got toexecute better and be a little more consistent."In all fairness to Mora and his assistants, the Falcons havebeen plagued by injuries. Two starters are out for the year, andanother might be finished. Plus, defensive stalwarts John Abrahamand Ed Hartwell have played only three games apiece.Then again, Atlanta must have known it was taking a chance whenit gave up a first-round pick to sign the injury prone Abraham to ahuge contract.The three-time Pro Bowl end dominated Carolina in Week 1 beforegoing down in the closing minutes with a groin injury that he'sstill trying to overcome. After abdominal surgery, he returned toface the Saints last week, but didn't even show up on the statsheet.If someone doesn't show up soon for the Falcons, this team isheaded for a major shakeup.