skoal brother
Footballguy
I think you'll find most Titans fans are in Fisher's corner. Never been so happy when we drafted VY and now I think I'm happier with the idea of him being gone.
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Vince Young (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Don Quixote
- Start date
gotexansgo
Footballguy
huh??Have you actually seen VYs stats? These are top QB numbers? Sorry but we apparently differ on how a top QB should produce. Its not irrational hate, people dont like the fact he isnt a leader, when things arent going his way he shows his immaturity time and time again. His teammates are questioning him, its not just the coach. How many top QBs in this league get into fights at a club? How many miss meetings? How many miss treatments? None.
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gotexansgo
Footballguy
since when is 10 TDs and 7 turnovers top QB stats?
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gotexansgo
Footballguy
Jon Kitna: 100/158 63.3% 1,223 yards 7.7avg 10 TDs 7 INTs 1 lost fumble
Vince Young: 93/156 59.6% 1,255 yards 8.0avg 10 TDs 3 INTs 4 lost fumbles.
so I guess Kitna is a top QB to?
Vince Young: 93/156 59.6% 1,255 yards 8.0avg 10 TDs 3 INTs 4 lost fumbles.
so I guess Kitna is a top QB to?
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guderian
Footballguy
Young is currently #5 in QB rating--ahead of Manning, Brees, Ryan, Flacco, Shaub, Rodgers...Young is currently #4 in Yards/Attempt...His 10/3 TD/INT ratio is better than everyone but Brady, Cassel, Ryan, Vick and Roethilsberger...
guderian
Footballguy
Dallas was 1-6 before Kitna's first start and they're 2-2 in his starts.There's not much in the way of FA QBs, so you're going to get as much Kerry Collins as you'd like...
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have you seen his stats? 7.3 any/a which ranks 4th. 9th in dvoa. 10th in expected points added per play.
gotexansgo
Footballguy
yes and Kitna is the main reason for those wins.....
I dont want Kerry really but Im tired of VY, its time to move on and find a real franchise QB. VY will hopefully mature and live up to his potential on another team.gotexansgo
Footballguy
again his stats are comparable to Jon freaking Kitna...is anyone here saying Kitna is a top QB? Is Kitna a franchise QB? the answer to both should be no.
Dr. Awesome
Footballguy
If Kitna were under 30 he would be starting for some team. But continue with your Vince Young sucks rant in the face of any kind of fact or statistic.
his stats this year in no way resemble kitna.
gotexansgo
Footballguy
again I say if VY with his stats is considered a top QB then why isnt Kitna? age has nothing to do with whats going on this season. what fact or stat? you point out his passer rating, David Garrard is .1 behind him in that, is he a top QB either? No he isnt. Other then passer rating his stats are basically Kitnas, only Kitna has a better comp %. Again I ask is he a top QB to now? I dont disagree that VY should get a chance to start for some team, I just think he isnt as good as some here are trying to build him up to be...he is nowhere near a top QB, and I dont believe he is a franchise QB either.
gotexansgo
Footballguy
Jon Kitna: 100/158 63.3% 1,223 yards 7.7avg 10 TDs 7 INTs 1 lost fumbleVince Young: 93/156 59.6% 1,255 yards 8.0avg 10 TDs 3 INTs 4 lost fumbles.please explain?
7.3 any/a which ranks 4th. 9th in dvoa. 10th in expected points added per play.
jsharlan
Footballguy
look at all these fanboys repeating a couple selective stats and then ignoring the rest of them.
This is just 2010:
Passing yards: 30th
Completion Percentage: 25th
Completions: 30th
Passing Yards per Game: 33rd, yes worse than last place.
Touchdowns: 23th
1st downs: 29th
If you think this is a top QB, I would like to be in your fantasy league.
This is just 2010:
Passing yards: 30th
Completion Percentage: 25th
Completions: 30th
Passing Yards per Game: 33rd, yes worse than last place.
Touchdowns: 23th
1st downs: 29th
If you think this is a top QB, I would like to be in your fantasy league.
Dr. Awesome
Footballguy
Pass attempts: 31stThis is why the other stats are better...they realize stats can be misleading if someone gets too many attempts. Also, we're not arguing fantasy production. Real life.
young looks poor in counting stats bc he has missed numerous games to injuries or getting benched. also, the titans dont throw it much anyway. on a per pass basis, young has played well this year.
jsharlan
Footballguy
Pretty sure in real life I want my 3rd overall pick franchise QB to be able to actually throw the ball and not just hand the ball off to Chris Johnson or run the option. Some of you are making a huge assumption based on no actual knowledge that VY doesn't throw the ball alot or put up good passing numbers because Fisher has a 5 year grudge to hold VY down. Ever think it is equally possible that He doesn't let him throw the ball because he sucks at making his reads and doesn't have the confidence to be trusted to overcome adversity? This isn't UT where everyone around him is kissing his ### and you get to beat up on Baylor.
A top QB isn't one who has a decent ratio at something because he barely does it, the top QB is the guy breaking Marino's records throwing to practice squad scrubs.
jsharlan
Footballguy
Handing the ball off to a good running back does not make you a top QB. Making the occasional pass to keep the defense honest is called being a game manager. A game manager is not a top QB. A game manager would be adequate if he didn't come with a load of baggage, and Fisher isn't SW airlines bags don't fly free.
jsharlan
Footballguy
Dr. Awesome
Footballguy
When he DOES throw the ball he's on par with many very good qb's (hence all the stats people keep ignoring). It's not his fault the team doesn't call many pass attempts. I said it earlier - is he Peyton? Of course not. Is he in the top half of starting qb's? You bet.And he's miles better than Collins or that rookie.
stats arent perfect. sample size issues. situation issues. believe or not there is luck and variance in sports. having "top" or "elite" stats does not mean a player is indeed on that level. but those stats can be useful in refuting a vocal contingent that believes young is a bad or negative QB.
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And I'll say this again Fisher has not had VY's back since he was "forced" on him.I'd be willing to bet if VY went on a 3 game losing streak he'd be benched IMMEDIATELY yet Fisher stuck with KC through a 0-6 start which ultimately cost them a playoff spot last year AND it took the owner of the Titans to get Fisher to make the change.
it certainly seems that fisher has been unfair to vince. but we dont know what goes on during practice, meetings and the locker room. its definitely possible that vince is such an ahole and negative presence that fisher is justified. really impossible for us to know. its much clearer to assess that vince has very likely been a positive factor in winning football games.
fwiw, its not the first time fischer has fisher has feuded wit his QB. nor the second. mcnair and volek were particularly acrimonious situations iirc.
fwiw, its not the first time fischer has fisher has feuded wit his QB. nor the second. mcnair and volek were particularly acrimonious situations iirc.
Ice Cream Man
Footballguy
Young started out 0-4 in the 2006 season and was not benched.Young lost 3 in a row in 2007 and was not benched.
Again, Collins was probably the 3rd or 4th reason (if that) for the losses in 2009. To complain about how Fisher managed that situation just strikes me as sour grapes. Collins had just come off a 13-3 season. Unlike VY, Collins earned Fisher's trust. Look at McNair. He was never given anything - that guy proved to Fisher he could play. VY has had everything given to him - ever since college. Again, VY came off a terrible 2007 season and he ditched the team. No one has yet explained to me why anybody.. save the guy who drafted him.. has ANY reason to put VY back in the very next season in place of a QB who has proven he can consistently lead the team. VY would have been cut two years ago by a lot of teams after all that drama.
I will admit that Young has looked better this year after the coaching staff has gone out of their way to hold him down and limit his possibilities for mistakes. The high QB rating and low attempts are not incidental. While a limited VY is better than a VY cut loose, long term the team can do better at the position -- Collins has shown that even an old guy with no legs can win with this team.
the hairy scotsman
Footballguy
No.The Titans lost their first 3 games in 2006 before starting VY in game 4. Until then KC started and VY only played the 2nd half of game 2.
He did lose his first 2 starts to the Cowboys and Colts. Including those two losses, the Titans went 8-5 with VY starting in 2006.
As for an old guy with no legs winning with this team...yes he had a very nice run in 08', but in the long run, not so much. Since VY has arrived, the Titans are 44-32. With VY starting, they are 30-17. With any other qb starting, they are 14-15. That seems a large enough sampling to indicate that this is not mere coincidence, imho.
Re: VY doing better when the Titans have "held him down" this year, his passer rating has been good all season, but it didn't really take off and move to the top of the charts until Dinger started calling shots down the field in the Dallas game and beyond.
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Ice Cream Man
Footballguy
I stand corrected. In any case, he has gone 3+ games in 2007 without getting pulled. The hyperbole in this thread is not needed.
But isn't this the crucial point? That a nobody quarterback can lead the team to a 13-3 record? Shouldn't that put VY's "winning" in perspective, particularly when he's not putting up the numbers?
In my view it's a coincidence when he's been a mediocre quarterback for his career and the team happens to have a pretty good defense. I think the guy has some talent but the team is better off going in a different direction.
You mean when Britt made the starting lineup?
the hairy scotsman
Footballguy
He hasn't been mediocre his entire career...and the defense hasn't always been good. Interestingly, however, the best defensive ranking since VY has been in Tennessee was achieved in 2008 when KC was the starter and went 13-4. The Titans' D was #2 in the nfl in scoring D that year and #7 in yards allowed.In 2006, the Titans ranked #31 and #32 (2nd most points and most yards allowed)
In 2007, they ranked #8 and #5, respectively.
In 2008, they ranked #2 and #7, respectively
In 2009, they ranked #27 and #28, respectively
In 2010, they rank #8 and #24, respectively.
Since starting the 2008 season 10-0 (VY 1-0 & KC 9-0), the Titans are 16-17 (KC 4-11 & VY 12-6).
If Britt is the reason they started throwing downfield, then that suggests they weren't merely handcuffing VY for safety's sake as you suggested earlier. Either way, they started doing it, and the payoff was big gainers, more points, and big ratings.
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LittlePhatty
Footballguy
It's well documented that he lacks work ethic. I truly think he has lots of talent, but his lack of commitment to work hard at the NFL level (he cruised by on talent in college like plenty of others) is one reason why Fisher doesn't like him.Take just one week before as an example. Again, Vince Young was acting childish due to being told he wouldn't start the Week 10 game. He failed to show up at the facility for workouts and rehab for his injury and he also skipped out on the team meeting (and now people are feeling sorry for him for "not being allowed at the meeting" this week, so funny).
Here's the link
Quote:
"Titans QB Vince Young did miss treatment last week and Friday meetings. The feeling in the Titans building is that he is extremely unreliable. His work ethic will need to improve if he is going to turn his career around. Young has not endeared himself to teammates, who know the real story about his work ethic. He did not even try to work out before Sunday's game, just accepting his number two status. He then showed, when he had to play when Kerry Collins got hurt, he was more than capable. The Titans need Young to grow up fast, and stop making excuses."
And it says he was "more than capable" in relief of KC in the game. But that's the frustrating part. I know he has talent. And people can quote all the stats they want, but the point is he could be better if he stopped acting like a whiny 10 year-old kid and he put the work in and showed commitment to his team. He could be great, he has the talent. Last season I thought he had matured but he has proven this year that he is still emotionally immature and that hurts the team. A team can survive a WR being like that but they need their star QB to hold it together when things get rough.
There's stuff on twitter that Vince is in Texas. I have no idea if it's true but, as I said earlier, I sincerely hope he's spending time with Mack Brown. Everything seems to me like he's going to need Mack to point out the obvious to him and it'll be well received because Mack loves the guy. I have not had the impression that Vince can help himself like most more mature men can. Have you guys?
If that is sadly the case then I would guess only someone like his family or Mack can set him straight. Hitting rock bottom a couple years ago didn't work.
If that is sadly the case then I would guess only someone like his family or Mack can set him straight. Hitting rock bottom a couple years ago didn't work.
Fisher himself stated that VY wasn't asked to remain in Tenn. for treatment because they felt that it would only improve with rest. Despite this, the story of VY missing treatments prior to the Miami game continues to be repeated. And before people say Fisher was just covering for VY, when has he ever done this before? He's always been very forthright in pointing out when VY screws up in the past.from Kuharsky at ESPN who's hardly a VY fan
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flufhed
Footballguy
Well, you mean except for the time when Vince Young refused to go back in the game?Or the multiple times he has fumbled?Or the times he has missed team meetings, and then looked lost on the field?You mean other than those times?
flufhed
Footballguy
lolThey just don't know, man, if they havenn't lived and breathed the Vince Young era.
Guerdian, surely you remember the Aaron Brooks years in New Orleans. this is like that, only more of a soap opera.
flufhed
Footballguy
yes and Kitna is the main reason for those wins.....I dont want Kerry really but Im tired of VY, its time to move on and find a real franchise QB. VY will hopefully mature and live up to his potential on another team.
Aren't you a Texans fan?work on your comprehension and analysis. if the stats say he is a top 5 qb then its a very strong indication that those who think he is an average or worse qb are wrong. thats all the vince supporters are arguing. dont strawman.at the stats saying he's a top 5 qb. If that's the case I'm sure he's your starting qb in all your leagues. Some of you need to watch some football and get out of the stats if you think he's a top Qb. Funny stuff.
gotexansgo
Footballguy
yup but Im also a football fan, and can see when a team needs to move on..and when others are giving a player entirely to much credit
Dr. Awesome
Footballguy
work on your comprehension and analysis. if the stats say he is a top 5 qb then its a very strong indication that those who think he is an average or worse qb are wrong. thats all the vince supporters are arguing. dont strawman.at the stats saying he's a top 5 qb. If that's the case I'm sure he's your starting qb in all your leagues. Some of you need to watch some football and get out of the stats if you think he's a top Qb. Funny stuff.
He's in the top half of starting qb's in the NFL.
FavreCo
Footballguy
Solid 30th in passing yards. http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/stats/leaders...DS/2010/regularwork on your comprehension and analysis. if the stats say he is a top 5 qb then its a very strong indication that those who think he is an average or worse qb are wrong. thats all the vince supporters are arguing. dont strawman.at the stats saying he's a top 5 qb. If that's the case I'm sure he's your starting qb in all your leagues. Some of you need to watch some football and get out of the stats if you think he's a top Qb. Funny stuff.
He's in the top half of starting qb's in the NFL.
Other career stats compare favorably to one David Carr. Nice.
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What's wrong with saying he's average? Isn't that about where he is compared to his peers? QB's I'd put ahead of VY: P. Manning, Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Rivers, Big Ben, E. Manning, Vick, Ryan, Flacco, Freeman, Orton, Schaub, Bradford, and Sanchez. That's 15. Some could also argue Favre and Cutler belong ahead of him. And this is exluding injured QB's (Romo, Stafford), who if healthy, would likely also be ranked ahead of VY.So, at best, excluding injured QB's, VY is the 16th best QB in the league. With 32 starting QB's, I'm pretty sure that puts him at just about average.He's in the top half of starting qb's in the NFL.
guderian
Footballguy
Hmmm...perhaps that's because he's played just over half of the snaps for the Titans...Even the per game stat is mis-leading because he played in only part of 5 games...
Dr. Awesome
Footballguy
You're being deliberately obtuse. He's 31st in passing attempts. Of course he's going to be low in passing yards. Keep up your usual awful shtick.Solid 30th in passing yards. http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/stats/leaders...DS/2010/regularwork on your comprehension and analysis. if the stats say he is a top 5 qb then its a very strong indication that those who think he is an average or worse qb are wrong. thats all the vince supporters are arguing. dont strawman.He's in the top half of starting qb's in the NFL.
Other career stats compare favorably to one David Carr. Nice.
Dr. Awesome
Footballguy
I would not say he's worse than Flacco or Sanchez. I can't possibly understand how one could argue for Favre being better. So let's say the worst case is he's average. That's still a lot better than many of his haters are claiming. And certainly no reason the Titans should look to dump him.
guderian
Footballguy
We do know that Fisher didn't want Young, so the perception that he's not treating Vince fairly is validated by that. If Fisher had fawned over drafting Young and then benched him, etc. then we could more easily presume that's a function of Young's behavior.
FavreCo
Footballguy
So what the hell is he doing out there? Managing the game?You're being deliberately obtuse. He's 31st in passing attempts. Of course he's going to be low in passing yards. Keep up your usual awful shtick.Solid 30th in passing yards. http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/stats/leaders...DS/2010/regularwork on your comprehension and analysis. if the stats say he is a top 5 qb then its a very strong indication that those who think he is an average or worse qb are wrong. thats all the vince supporters are arguing. dont strawman.
Other career stats compare favorably to one David Carr. Nice.
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Dr. Awesome
Footballguy
Read the last couple pages. We've been over this. HTH.
