Vincent Jackson's "Illegal Forward Pass" (1 Viewer)

[Bob_Magaw]

got it maulrile...

what i call a celebratory spike (and you corrected me that it wasn't a spike but a flick out of his hands) is a defacto forward pass by the rules...

i guess it i still a little confusing to me to call a play that wasn't a pass a pass... but i don't want to press that point as it is in the rules...

i think a gray area here is when a player goes down to the ground but there is some confusion about whether he is down or not... michael clayton had a play like that in his rookie season, & i think in same year IND burned DEN in a playoff game on a similar play... player wasn't down & kept running...

i think this works both ways... if jackson had thought he was down (he did, wrongly) & HAD LEFT THE BALL ON GROUND... wouldn't that have been a live ball... i haven't seen this point discussed in thread... i realize it didn't happen, but if it did was wondering the rule...

& for final clarification, if the ball is spiked, flicked, whatever forward... it is by rule forward pass (couldn't they call it something other than a pass?)...

if ball is moved bacwards, it is a fumble?

what if it is tossed more or less exactly sideways or laterally... do the rules address this?

* in your example of throwing it into end zone, that would have been clear to me beforehand as instance where you cant advance ball like that for obvious reasons... my confusion stemmed from seeing how it may be more like case where if a player isn't touched and he leaves ball on ground, i could see how that might be a live ball (but again, i haven't consulted rule book on that, and not even sure about that)... i also had some confusion based on plaxico celebratory spike... but i guess in that cae it landed behind him & was therefore a fumble...

which is rule for a QB, & it sounds like everybody is treated like a QB... ball forward incomplete pass... ball backwards fumble... i think that is part of source of my confusion... non-QBs aren't expected to pass ball, so couldn't rule address this event separately (they sometimes do, but it is usually clear from context... plaxico wasn't & neither was jackson... not REALLY passing in conventional sense we usually associate with meaning, though you have made clear by letter of rule it is a "pass")...

i suppose even if this rule wasn't in the books, it might have been covered under not being able to advance a fumble & still dead ball, SD possession still, no?

last gray area clarification... if jackson is on OAK 1 yd line, celebrates by heaving it backwards & it rolls 99 yds to SD 1 & OAK falls on it... OAK ball on 1?

 

[ExtraPoint]

Another way of thinking of this is a WR screen. Regardless of whether the QB intended the ball to go forward or not, if the ball goes forward it is a pass and if it goes backward it is a lateral. Thus there are drastic differences if the ball is not caught. It has nothing to do with the thrower's intention ... it has everything to do with whether the ball travelled forward when it was thrown.

Theere's a good example of the point I've been trying to make. Now if during that WR screen, the pass goes lateral and its intercepted by the DB, how is it scored in your fantasy league? Interception? Nope. Its recorded as a fumble on the stat sheet. Yet it was an obvious "pass" that was intercepted. So why is it not an interception? Because it was a lateral or backward pass, not a forward pass. Nobody fumbled the ball, but it went down in the stat sheets as a fumble.A fumble or pass is not defined the same on the stat sheet as it is by the interpertation of the refferee. This is confusing people. There is no stat for lateral/backward passes. If a lateral is complete, it goes into the stat sheet as a running play. If that lateral is dropped, it goes into the stat sheet as a fumble. The referee see's it as a lateral wether its completed or not.

 

[parasaurolophus]

i have a question and i am not sure if it has been covered. Does this not open up the middle of the field now for teams when they are out of timeouts? ie throw a long pass down the middle of the field, guy is getting tackled and then he intentionally fumbles forward to suffer only a five yard penalty and stop the clock?

What if dyson would have done that in the superbowl right before he got tackled? was time out already, i cant remember exactly if it ticked away after the tackle, or if it was at zero already?

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

if jackson had thought he was down (he did, wrongly) & HAD LEFT THE BALL ON GROUND... wouldn't that have been a live ball...

Yes, if he had just placed the ball on the ground, it wouldn't have been a pass, so it would have been a live ball.

if ball is moved bacwards, it is a fumble?

what if it is tossed more or less exactly sideways or laterally... do the rules address this?

If the ball is tossed backwards or sideways it is still a pass. But it is a backward pass and therefore treated the same as a fumble -- i.e., it is live.

which is rule for a QB, & it sounds like everybody is treated like a QB... ball forward incomplete pass... ball backwards fumble... i think that is part of source of my confusion... non-QBs aren't expected to pass ball, so couldn't rule address this event separately (they sometimes do, but it is usually clear from context... plaxico wasn't & neither was jackson... not REALLY passing in conventional sense we usually associate with meaning, though you have made clear by letter of rule it is a "pass")...

The rules generally don't use terms like "quarterback" and "running back." They instead use "passer" and "runner." It doesn't matter if a guy is a QB or not. If he passes the ball, he's a passer.

i suppose even if this rule wasn't in the books, it might have been covered under not being able to advance a fumble & still dead ball, SD possession still, no?

But except on fourth down, fumbles can be advanced by the offense. So if you start calling intentional flicks/flings/spikes/throws fumbles, you open up the door to multiple forward passes to gain extra yardage (as long as it's not fourth down).

last gray area clarification... if jackson is on OAK 1 yd line, celebrates by heaving it backwards & it rolls 99 yds to SD 1 & OAK falls on it... OAK ball on 1?

Yes, first and goal.

 

[smcindoe]

Let's go through Jackson head here.

No. Let's not. His intent doesn't matter here, only his actions. The whole point of having a decent rulebook is that you don't have to guess what a player inteded to do.

 

[ExtraPoint]

i have a question and i am not sure if it has been covered. Does this not open up the middle of the field now for teams when they are out of timeouts? ie throw a long pass down the middle of the field, guy is getting tackled and then he intentionally fumbles forward to suffer only a five yard penalty and stop the clock? What if dyson would have done that in the superbowl right before he got tackled? was time out already, i cant remember exactly if it ticked away after the tackle, or if it was at zero already?

They run off a few seconds from the clock for an offensive penalty at the closing of a half.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

i have a question and i am not sure if it has been covered.

It has been, about 20 posts up, I think. (Maybe less.)

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

i have a question and i am not sure if it has been covered. Does this not open up the middle of the field now for teams when they are out of timeouts? ie throw a long pass down the middle of the field, guy is getting tackled and then he intentionally fumbles forward to suffer only a five yard penalty and stop the clock? What if dyson would have done that in the superbowl right before he got tackled? was time out already, i cant remember exactly if it ticked away after the tackle, or if it was at zero already?

They run off a few seconds from the clock for an offensive penalty at the closing of a half.

Yes, they run 10 seconds off and then re-start the clock at the ready-for-play signal. So it doesn't stop the clock.

 

[shakeybarn]

It is illegal to intentionally fumble a ball forward and, by rule, an illegal forward fumble is an incomplete pass. That makes it a dead ball. A 5-yard penalty is then assessed from the spot.

Jackson wasn't "intentionally fumbling" anything. At best he was ACCIDENTALLY fumbling.

You need to learn the difference between intentional and accidental.He let go of that ball on purpose, son.

The "letting go" wasn't what was accidental, the fact that he was "fumbling" was accidental. In other words, unlike all the players involved in the "fumbleruski" play, Jackson had no idea, let alone intent, that he was "fumbling" the ball.

Well put, there's no precedent for this, but given the showboating and how much they've cracked down on endzone moves... I can see something going in. the SPIRIT of the rule, was to prevent guys getting dragged down from just lobbing the ball foward (especially on final plays) and having a teammate pick it up.

who was he throwing to? forward pass is laughable. you have to pass it to someone or avoided being tackled... was doing neither.

it was a live ball, and the jackazz was careless. if it went the other way, we'd see most threaders agreeing with the call and have little issue as Jackson wasn't throwing the ball, period.

raidah nation still woulda found another way to barf that game up, regardless.

 

[parasaurolophus]

i have a question and i am not sure if it has been covered. Does this not open up the middle of the field now for teams when they are out of timeouts? ie throw a long pass down the middle of the field, guy is getting tackled and then he intentionally fumbles forward to suffer only a five yard penalty and stop the clock? What if dyson would have done that in the superbowl right before he got tackled? was time out already, i cant remember exactly if it ticked away after the tackle, or if it was at zero already?

They run off a few seconds from the clock for an offensive penalty at the closing of a half.

they dont run off 10 seconds for ALL offensive penalties at the closing of a half. This was covered earlier this year in the Rams/Seahawks game. Do we know which penalties do and do not have a runoff? Plus even if there was a ten second run off, that wouldnt be a big deal if you could throw to the middle of the field deep. And it takes refs at least 30 seconds to call a penalty and the clock is certainly stopped during that time allowing the offense to be set and ready to go when the clock is wound.example...First and ten at your own 10 yard line. 25 seconds left. down by 2, no timeouts. Defense is playing way back to not give up anything on the sidelines. WR runs a slant route 10 yards up and to the middle of the field. Catches it and runs to the opponents 30 yard line. is being tackled fumbles it forward. clock stops with 14 seconds left. flag thrown, offense sprints forward sets up. 10 seconds taken off and clock is wound 1 second runs off qb snaps the ball spikes it. which takes only 2 seconds off, field goal unit comes in, kicks the ball makes it wins the game. this play was never available before. No way in 14 seconds can your offense move up the field 50 yards and setup.

 

[MSULions]

this is the most asinine argument in the history of football.

 

[Xenopax]

It seems to me people are mad a technicality hurt them when it overrulled another technicality.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

It seems to me people are mad a technicality hurt them when it overrulled another technicality.

Yes.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

I quoted the definition of a forward pass previously, but I did not quote all the notes. They are worth reading. Here is the entirety of Rule 3, Section 21, Article 2. (This is where the tuck rule appears as well.)

It is a Forward Pass if:

(a) the ball initially moves forward (to a point nearer the opponent's goal line) after leaving the passer's hands; or

(b) the ball first strikes the ground, a player, an official, or anything else at a point that is nearer the opponent's goal line than the point at which the ball leaves the passer's hand; or

(c] the ball is handed (regardless of the direction of the movement of the ball) to a player who is in advance of a teammate from whose hands he takes or receives it.

Exception: When the ball is handed forward to an eligible pass receiver who is behind the line, it is not a forward pass. If the receiver muffs, it is treated as a fumble.

Note 1: When a Team A player is holding the ball to pass it forward, any intentional movement forward of his hand starts a forward pass. If a Team B player contacts the passer or the ball after forward movement begins, and the ball leaves the passer's hand, a forward pass is ruled, regardless of where the ball strikes the ground or a player.

Note 2: When a Team A player is holding the ball to pass it forward, any intentional forward movement of his hand starts a forward pass, even if the player loses possession of the ball as he is attempting to tuck it back toward his body. Also, if the player has tucked the ball into his body and then loses possession, it is a fumble.

Note 3: If the player loses possession of the ball while attempting to recock his arm, it is a fumble.

Note 4: A fumble or muff going forward is disregarded as to its direction, unless the act is ruled intentional. In such cases, the fumble is a forward pass and the muff is a bat.

 

[ExtraPoint]

[example...First and ten at your own 10 yard line. 25 seconds left. down by 2, no timeouts. Defense is playing way back to not give up anything on the sidelines. WR runs a slant route 10 yards up and to the middle of the field. Catches it and runs to the opponents 30 yard line. is being tackled fumbles it forward. clock stops with 14 seconds left. flag thrown, offense sprints forward sets up. 10 seconds taken off and clock is wound 1 second runs off qb snaps the ball spikes it. which takes only 2 seconds off, field goal unit comes in, kicks the ball makes it wins the game. this play was never available before. No way in 14 seconds can your offense move up the field 50 yards and setup.

If he was being tackled he could go down and use any available penalty in your example. Unsportsmanlike conduct (taking off a helmet, punching, ect), injured player with no timeouts, ect. Say he wasnt being tackled and simply threw the ball overhand into the back of the end zone. How would you want that ruled? What if the player takes a knee and then throws his helmet accross the field?Its interesting to think a team could pull it off. If one did, I think you might potentially see the ten second runoff rule upped a few seconds. That's the purpose of the runoff rule. If the runoff rule wasnt effective the NFL would make a rule change somewhere but probably to the runoff rule itself. I dont think we are restricting ourselves to an illegal forward pass situation.

 

[parasaurolophus]

the only reason i use the illegal forward pass is because it is really the only thing you could quickly do as you are being tackled

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

[example...First and ten at your own 10 yard line. 25 seconds left. down by 2, no timeouts. Defense is playing way back to not give up anything on the sidelines. WR runs a slant route 10 yards up and to the middle of the field. Catches it and runs to the opponents 30 yard line. is being tackled fumbles it forward. clock stops with 14 seconds left. flag thrown, offense sprints forward sets up. 10 seconds taken off and clock is wound 1 second runs off qb snaps the ball spikes it. which takes only 2 seconds off, field goal unit comes in, kicks the ball makes it wins the game. this play was never available before. No way in 14 seconds can your offense move up the field 50 yards and setup.

If he was being tackled he could go down and use any available penalty in your example. Unsportsmanlike conduct (taking off a helmet, punching, ect), injured player with no timeouts, ect. Say he wasnt being tackled and simply threw the ball overhand into the back of the end zone. How would you want that ruled? What if the player takes a knee and then throws his helmet accross the field?Its interesting to think a team could pull it off. If one did, I think you might potentially see the ten second runoff rule upped a few seconds. That's the purpose of the runoff rule. If the runoff rule wasnt effective the NFL would make a rule change somewhere but probably to the runoff rule itself. I dont think we are restricting ourselves to an illegal forward pass situation.

Yes, or as I pointed out before, instead of spiking it in front of him, a player can just huck it laterally out of bounds. (Although, as with spiking it, that doesn't really stop the clock. There's a run-off and then the clock starts on the ready-for-play signal.)

 

[GregR_2]

...

they dont run off 10 seconds for ALL offensive penalties at the closing of a half. This was covered earlier this year in the Rams/Seahawks game. Do we know which penalties do and do not have a runoff?

...

MT already posted the rule:

....

Except that those situations are specifically covered by Rule 4, Section 3, Article 10:

A team is not permitted to conserve time inside of one minute of either half by committing any of the following acts: fouls by either team that prevent the snap (i.e., false start, encroachment, etc.), intentional grounding, an illegal forward pass thrown from beyond the line of scrimmage with the intent to conserve time, throwing a backward pass out of bounds with the intent to conserve time, and any other intentional foul that causes the clock to stop.

Penalty: Loss of five yards unless a larger distance penalty is applicable. When actions referred to above are committed by the offensive team with the clock running, officials will run 10 seconds off the game clock before permitting the ball to be put in play on the ready-for-play signal. the clock will start on the ready-for-play signal. If the offensive team has time outs remaining, it will have the option of using a time out in lieu of a 10-second run-off. If the action is by the defense, the Play Clock will be reset to 40 seconds and the game clock will start on the ready signal. If the defense has time outs remaining, it will have the option of using a time out in lieu of the game clock being started.

Note: There never can be a 10-second run-off against the defensive team.

I bolded the two important parts. In the Rams-Seahawks game, they didn't commit a penalty that prevents the snap. They committed an illegal formation that can be declined and the results of the snap count.This brought up from Linehan that a team could then have their WRs go snap the ball before the rest of the team gets there... say, spike the ball and what would happen is the other team could accept the result of the spike... or they could accept the 5 yard penalty, but either way the clock stops.

That seemed like a true loophole he found... though the second part I bolded makes me wonder if he really did. If two WRs run over and play center and QB and they are the only ones on the line as they spike the ball to draw illegal formation, I think the correct ruling would be it was an intentional foul to cause the clock to stop. It would be interesting to hear Pereira's take on it though.

Edit to add: But anyway, going back to the play in the Seahawks-Rams game, the illegal formation didn't seem to be an intentional attempt to stop the clock, it was just a mistake they made.

 

[BoltBacker]

Is Maurile bucking for a raise? Can't believe he's had the patience to spend TWO DAYS answering questions that are pretty obvious. Let 'em think it's a conspiracy if it helps 'em sleep at night..... some aren't going to accept anything else anyway.