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Watson TD "Pass" to Miller (1 Viewer)

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patv66

Footballguy
How is the 1 yd TD by Miller considered a pass?

Is there the possibility that there will be a scoring change?

That ball looks to be going up and not forward, and it isn't the same play as a shovel pass?

What am I missing?

 
patv66 said:
How is the 1 yd TD by Miller considered a pass?

Is there the possibility that there will be a scoring change?

That ball looks to be going up and not forward, and it isn't the same play as a shovel pass?

What am I missing?
Click to expand...
a shovel pass is a pass.

 
Dr. Octopus said:
a shovel pass is a pass.
Click to expand...
I think that he's saying it's different than a shovel pass (?)

I will agree that looking at it again, it doesn't really seem like the ball is going forward.  When I saw it in real time (amidst watching other games), I assumed it was considered a rushing TD.

 
Sorry dude, it's a passing TD because the ball moved forward through the air from Watson to Miller without either player touching the ball and Watson was still behind the line of scrimage.

Very straight forward.

 
Long Ball Larry said:
I think that he's saying it's different than a shovel pass (?)

I will agree that looking at it again, it doesn't really seem like the ball is going forward.  When I saw it in real time (amidst watching other games), I assumed it was considered a rushing TD.
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I did not really see the play - but you may be correct as his sentence is a little difficult to interpret.

In that case, yes, sometimes there are stat corrections and what was a pass becomes a run.

 
Steeler said:
Sorry dude, it's a passing TD because the ball moved forward through the air from Watson to Miller without either player touching the ball and Watson was still behind the line of scrimage.

Very straight forward.
Click to expand...
Wait.  Are you saying Watson didn't touch the ball?

 
patv66 said:
How is the 1 yd TD by Miller considered a pass?

Is there the possibility that there will be a scoring change?

That ball looks to be going up and not forward, and it isn't the same play as a shovel pass?

What am I missing?
Click to expand...
It was a pass.  Miller went in motion, Watson took the snap from shotgun, just kind of tossed the ball up in front of him, Miller grabbed it, went around end & scored.  The ball went forwards, out of Watson's hand, and was caught.  If Miller had dropped it, it wouldn't have been a fumble, it would have been an incomplete pass.

 
1st and goal from the 1 and first play is a designed QB run for Watson that gets stuffed.   Next play is B Miller sweep shovel pass for the TD.  Lamar Miller is getting sniped on goal line carries and I don't see that changing this year.

 
He holds the ball and pulls his hands back, letting go of the ball... and Miller takes it    

If anything the ball goes up, but not toward the goal line.   

 
patv66 said:
He holds the ball and pulls his hands back, letting go of the ball... and Miller takes it    

If anything the ball goes up, but not toward the goal line.   
Click to expand...
He flicks the ball upward.  He doesn't just "let go of the ball."  If he did that, it would have immediately gone downward, when it clearly pops upward first.

 
BTW, it's also considered a "forward pass" if the quarterback hands off to a player in front of him.

For future reference...

 
patv66 said:
He holds the ball and pulls his hands back, letting go of the ball... and Miller takes it    

If anything the ball goes up, but not toward the goal line.   
Click to expand...
You can keep holding out hope, but don't count on that one being corrected.

 
Let's forget who has Watson and who doesn't for a second.  

I don't understand how some of you guys don't even consider this a close play.  

When I get home, I'll look for specifics, but I have seen plays like this in college ruled as a TD run.   

Anyway, I don't see the ball clearly move forward. It looks like it does because Watson brings his hands back, but I'm not sure it goes forward before it contacts Miller. 

It definitely goes up in the air.... but if it doesn't go forward, it should be a lateral.  

I'm going to break this down like the Zapruder film later.  

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Joe Summer said:
BTW, it's also considered a "forward pass" if the quarterback hands off to a player in front of him.

For future reference...
Click to expand...
I think I disagree.

From the NFL rulebook (Rule 8, Section 1, Article 1), the definition of a forward pass is when

(a) the ball initially moves forward (to a point nearer the opponent’s goal line) after leaving the passer’s hand(s); or (b) the ball first strikes the ground, a player, an official, or anything else at a point that is nearer the opponent’s goal line than the point at which the ball leaves the passer’s hand(s).

Maybe you can clarify what you mean. In a handoff the ball doesn’t leave the QBs hands, it is transferred with both the QB and the runner touching the ball at the same time. That’s never a pass, right?

 
This is why QBs don't "hand the ball" to the guy on a jet sweep these days.  If the runner drops it, it isn't considered a fumble (would be incomplete pass), so it is a safer exchange between the QB and WR/RB.  Everyone is doing it now.  

 
I think I disagree.

From the NFL rulebook (Rule 8, Section 1, Article 1), the definition of a forward pass is when

(a) the ball initially moves forward (to a point nearer the opponent’s goal line) after leaving the passer’s hand(s);
Click to expand...
You're missing Rule 22, Article 1 (definition of a pass): "A pass is the movement caused by a player intentionally handing, throwing, shoveling (shovel pass), or pushing (push pass) the ball (3-25-2)."

Also, "leaving the passer's hands" does not necessarily mean "leaving through the air". A handoff also leaves the passer's hands.

 
BobbyLayne said:
I think I disagree.

From the NFL rulebook (Rule 8, Section 1, Article 1), the definition of a forward pass is when

(a) the ball initially moves forward (to a point nearer the opponent’s goal line) after leaving the passer’s hand(s); or (b) the ball first strikes the ground, a player, an official, or anything else at a point that is nearer the opponent’s goal line than the point at which the ball leaves the passer’s hand(s).

Maybe you can clarify what you mean. In a handoff the ball doesn’t leave the QBs hands, it is transferred with both the QB and the runner touching the ball at the same time. That’s never a pass, right?
Click to expand...
This is a good question...

You cannot dispute that 1) the ball leaves the passer's hand(s) - that is, unless the passer keeps his hands on the ball the whole time after the runner has the ball; and 2) the ball is striking a player (the runner on his hands) at a point nearer to the opponent's goal.

 
patv66 said:
Let's forget who has Watson and who doesn't for a second.  

I don't understand how some of you guys don't even consider this a close play.  

When I get home, I'll look for specifics, but I have seen plays like this in college ruled as a TD run.   

Anyway, I don't see the ball clearly move forward. It looks like it does because Watson brings his hands back, but I'm not sure it goes forward before it contacts Miller. 

It definitely goes up in the air.... but if it doesn't go forward, it should be a lateral.  

I'm going to break this down like the Zapruder film later.  
Click to expand...
or we can juts wait until Wednesday afternoon when the stat corrections are announced. :shrug:

 
Joe Summer said:
I think I disagree.

From the NFL rulebook (Rule 8, Section 1, Article 1), the definition of a forward pass is when

(a) the ball initially moves forward (to a point nearer the opponent’s goal line) after leaving the passer’s hand(s);
Click to expand...
You're missing Rule 22, Article 1 (definition of a pass): "A pass is the movement caused by a player intentionally handing, throwing, shoveling (shovel pass), or pushing (push pass) the ball (3-25-2)."

Also, "leaving the passer's hands" does not necessarily mean "leaving through the air". A handoff also leaves the passer's hands.
Click to expand...
Interesting.

So Rule 8 defines Forward Pass, and Rule 22 defines Pass. 

Is that significant?

We used to have the NFL rulebook pinned here...I think? Anyway, here it is

Rule 8 is there, on page 39 of the link I provided (2017 Rulebook.) I couldn't find your Rule 22, but I see now it's just the citation was wrong.

Rule 3, Section 22, Article 1 (page 17)

Earlier in Rule 3, there is Section 15, which discusses handing the ball.

SECTION 15 HANDING THE BALL
Handing the ball is transferring player possession from one teammate to another without passing or kicking it.
(a) Except where permitted by rule, handing the ball forward to a teammate is illegal.
(b) Loss of player possession by unsuccessful execution of attempted handing is a fumble charged to the player that last had possession. A muffed handoff (legal or illegal) is a fumble, and the ball remains alive.
(c) A forward handoff occurs when the ball is handed (regardless of the direction of the movement of the ball) to a player who is in advance of a teammate from whose hands he takes or receives it.

I'm by no means a rules expert, but I am not convinced Rule 3 Section 22 Article 1 is defining a forward handoff as a Forward Pass (which Rule 8 defines explicitly.) But I'm open minded, especially if you can cite a specific play where a forward handoff was scored as a pass attempt.

 
Forward handoffs from the options some of these qbs run are never counted as passes.  

And this was obviously a pass.  No idea how this could be interpreted as a run.

 
Joe Summer said:
You're missing Rule 22, Article 1 (definition of a pass): "A pass is the movement caused by a player intentionally handing, throwing, shoveling (shovel pass), or pushing (push pass) the ball (3-25-2)."

Also, "leaving the passer's hands" does not necessarily mean "leaving through the air". A handoff also leaves the passer's hands.
Click to expand...
So then based on this, every shotgun run where the RB starts on one side of the QB and crosses in front of the QB to take the handoff should be counted as a pass???  Never heard of this definition of a pass and it kinda doesn't make sense.

 
Joe Summer said:
You're missing Rule 22, Article 1 (definition of a pass): "A pass is the movement caused by a player intentionally handing, throwing, shoveling (shovel pass), or pushing (push pass) the ball (3-25-2)."

Also, "leaving the passer's hands" does not necessarily mean "leaving through the air". A handoff also leaves the passer's hands.
Click to expand...
I think you're interpreting part of the rule incorrectly.  Or, I'm misunderstanding what you mean.  See the below play where the ball is handed off in front and then thrown.  If I understand you, by your interpretation, this play had two forward passes, which is obviously illegal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJL_bgaJBm4.

And to the OPs question, that is clearly a pass.  There is nothing to dispute.

 
See it a lot in college now, the forward pitch by itself or in an option/sweep. 

Smart evolution imo, can drop it for whatever reason with no loss of yardage.

 
It's a pass simply because it wasn't handed off & the player who received it was in front of the QB (thus, the ball move forward at least some).

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Have always hated the shovel pass counting as passing yards.  Just seems you should have to throw the ball, not do a forward lateral...............

But, that was certainly a pass by the current definition.

 
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