We’re moving away from the center (1 Viewer)

[timschochet]

Despite Biden’s election victory, my biggest concern about American politics is slowly, inexorably coming to pass- we’re moving away from the center, towards the extremes. 
 

The Republican Party is all but dominated now by a nationalist, populist, nativist viewpoint with a lot of white grievance thrown in for good measure. Trump is either a catalyst for this or merely a symptom depending on your point of view, but the change is evident- the GOP is no longer the party of limited government and traditional conservative principles that your grandfather knew. 
 

The Democratic Party is increasingly being taken over by leftists who reject the traditional liberal idea of tinkering with our society in order to improve it. These leftists believe that our society is fundamentally flawed and that tinkering will do no good; they seek its transformation. I and many other liberals believed (hoped?) that Biden’s victory, even more so his nomination last year, was a major defeat for these forces. It was a defeat but it seems temporary at best. They’re getting louder and louder. They’re pushing Biden, and they’re very effectively using Republican intransigence to convince independents that we have to go along with them to get anything done. They may be right about that, but their plans scare me. 
 

My biggest political nightmare is that all of our elections are going to become a battle between a bunch of Marjorie Taylor Greenes vs a bunch of AOCs. Is there no way out of this? 

 

[rockaction]

I just saw a study about extremism and partisan ideology with respect to misinformation being believed as true. It was thirty-seven bucks, so I only read the abstract's conclusion, but the study found that if you believe that your party is part of your identity that you're more likely to believe in things that are false as well as that you're more likely to be extreme.

That's what each hardened side sells, I think. The chance for party to become part of your core, your identity. That's when I think it gets dangerous.

 

[timschochet]

For a historical reference: if you read about the 20 years prior to the Civil War, there were moderates on both sides who were looking for a way out of the mess: people of good will, like Lincoln in the north and his good friend Alexander Stephens in the south, who were seeking a way to gradually end slavery peacefully and avoid conflict. They tried, they were drowned out by events. People on both sides got pissed off by a bunch of incidents (John Brown’s raid among others) and all attempts at compromise disappeared as everybody was forced to pick a side and stay there. 
We’re not headed for a civil war (hopefully!) but I do sense the same happening now. We’re getting pissed off at each other and we’re choosing sides.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

For a historical reference: if you read about the 20 years prior to the Civil War, there were moderates on both sides who were looking for a way out of the mess: people of good will, like Lincoln in the north and his good friend Alexander Stephens in the south, who were seeking a way to gradually end slavery peacefully and avoid conflict. They tried, they were drowned out by events. People on both sides got pissed off by a bunch of incidents (John Brown’s raid among others) and all attempts at compromise disappeared as everybody was forced to pick a side and stay there. 
We’re not headed for a civil war (hopefully!) but I do sense the same happening now. We’re getting pissed off at each other and we’re choosing sides.

Unfortunately, I agree with your assessment.  This is asymmetrical, in that the GOP is significantly worse than the Democrats, but they're on a pretty Trump-y trajectory and none of this bodes well for liberal democracy.

 

[timschochet]

I just saw a study about extremism and partisan ideology with respect to misinformation being believed as true. It was thirty-seven bucks, so I only read the abstract's conclusion, but the study found that if you believe that your party is part of your identity that you're more likely to believe in things that are false as well as that you're more likely to be extreme.

That's what each hardened side sells, I think. The chance for party to become part of your core, your identity. That's when I think it gets dangerous.

Well as far as the misinformation part I started a whole thread about that so I’m sure you know what I think. But conservatives (and some leftists as well) largely reject my defense of the mainstream media. In some ways, I acknowledge, it’s an idealistic defense. Rather than defend each incident that causes not unreasonable criticism, I simply point out that society is better off when there is an authoritative voice presenting the news that everybody accepts, and if not the MSM, then who? But we may be past the point where I can convince anybody with that argument. 

 

[Ghost Rider]

I think both sides are completely off the rails at this point, so I refuse to choose a side. I am choosing not to decide, therefore I still have made a choice.  Which puts me in the vast minority. 

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Well as far as the misinformation part I started a whole thread about that so I’m sure you know what I think. But conservatives (and some leftists as well) largely reject my defense of the mainstream media. In some ways, I acknowledge, it’s an idealistic defense. Rather than defend each incident that causes not unreasonable criticism, I simply point out that society is better off when there is an authoritative voice presenting the news that everybody accepts, and if not the MSM, then who? But we may be past the point where I can convince anybody with that argument. 

The problem with this argument is that the MSM picked a side, and now they can't walk it back credibly.

 

[timschochet]

Unfortunately, I agree with your assessment.  This is asymmetrical, in that the GOP is significantly worse than the Democrats, but they're on a pretty Trump-y trajectory and none of this bodes well for liberal democracy.

I don’t know if they’re worse than the Democrats but they’re not moving in equally opposite directions. The Democrats are moving towards a more traditional leftism, but the Republicans are not moving toward the right; they’re moving towards nationalism. 

 

[timschochet]

I think both sides are completely off the rails at this point, so I refuse to choose a side. I am choosing not to decide, therefore I still have made a choice. Which puts me in the vast minority. 

Not necessarily. Not yet. Getting closer though IMO. 

 

[Leroy Hoard]

I think both sides are completely off the rails at this point, so I refuse to choose a side. I am choosing not to decide, therefore I still have made a choice.  Which puts me in the vast minority. 

Let's not Rush to anything.

 

[ekbeats]

Unfortunately, I agree with your assessment.  This is asymmetrical, in that the GOP is significantly worse than the Democrats, but they're on a pretty Trump-y trajectory and none of this bodes well for liberal democracy.

The difference is that Trump is a nutjob with good policies, while the extreme Dems are nutjobs with horrible policies.  The Dems are a far bigger threat especially considering they virtually own the media, educational system, entertainment industry, and HR departments at large corporations.  They have a boatload of power.

 

[rockaction]

Well as far as the misinformation part I started a whole thread about that so I’m sure you know what I think. But conservatives (and some leftists as well) largely reject my defense of the mainstream media. In some ways, I acknowledge, it’s an idealistic defense. Rather than defend each incident that causes not unreasonable criticism, I simply point out that society is better off when there is an authoritative voice presenting the news that everybody accepts, and if not the MSM, then who? But we may be past the point where I can convince anybody with that argument. 

I was more concentrating on identity and extremism by relaying this. That once you believe, in your heart, that your party is part of who you are, you tend to wind up more extreme in your views. It's the politicizing of the apolitical at times, and I've noticed Democrats, who have always done that, are now joined by Republicans in that very notion. The political is so very personal to them, in the same way that the political was to a second wave feminist in the '70s.

 

[timschochet]

The difference is that Trump is a nutjobs with good policies, while the extreme Dems at nutjobs with horrible policies.  The Dems are a far bigger threat especially considering they virtually own the media, educational system, entertainment industry, and HR orgs at private companies.  They have a boatload of power.

I assume you mean “good” polices not “hood” policies, lol. 
Putting aside the question of whether or not Trump’s policies are “good” (because I’m afraid we will never see eye to eye on that), would you agree with my assessment in the OP that they generally represent a movement away from traditional conservatism and towards nationalism? 

 

[timschochet]

I was more concentrating on identity and extremism by relaying this. That once you believe, in your heart, that your party is part of who you are, you tend to wind up more extreme in your views. It's the politicizing of the apolitical at times, and I've noticed Democrats, who have always done that, are now joined by Republicans in that very notion. The political is so very personal to them, in the same way that the political was to a second wave feminist in the '70s.

I agree. I don’t know who started it and perhaps it doesn’t really matter. But yes these days everything is personal.

I have close friends who have stopped talking to family members due to arguments about Trump. I don’t understand this. 

 

[ekbeats]

I don’t know if they’re worse than the Democrats but they’re not moving in equally opposite directions. The Democrats are moving towards a more traditional leftism, but the Republicans are not moving toward the right; they’re moving towards nationalism. 

Depends on what you mean by traditional Leftism.  If you mean the classic Liberalism that I grew up in in the 80’s then no, today’s Leftists are much different.  They are anti free speech and less about Marxist type egalitarianism. Today’s Progressives are about power.  They consist of many wealthy elements in the Big Tech space and media, which is alarming.  Their obsession with identity politics is what concerns me most.  Dividing people by race and demonizing whites is destroying the fabric of the country.  We are becoming a Balkanized country and that scenario doesn’t end well.

 

[timschochet]

Depends on what you mean by traditional Leftism.  If you mean the classic Liberalism that I grew up in in the 80’s then no, today’s Leftists are much different.  They are anti free speech and less about Marxist type egalitarianism. Today’s Progressives are about power.  They consist of many wealthy elements in the Big Tech space and media, which is alarming.  Their obsession with identity politics is what concerns me most.  Dividing people by race and demonizing whites is destroying the fabric of the country.  We are becoming a Balkanized country and that scenario doesn’t end well.

Agree with some of this though not all. But your general outlook is correct. As I wrote in the OP, the traditional liberal wants to fix whats wrong. The leftist says it can’t be fixed: tear it down and start over. 

 

[timschochet]

ETA to my last point: a typical conservative response to the liberal attempt to fix things is to try and claim that the liberal is secretly a leftist, and that fixing is a slippery slope towards tearing it down and starting over. But of course this is never the case. Despite right wing rhetoric, there are no slippery slopes towards leftism; every time it has succeeded in history it has come as a sudden, very quick rejection of the status quo. 

 

[BladeRunner]

ETA to my last point: a typical conservative response to the liberal attempt to fix things is to try and claim that the liberal is secretly a leftist, and that fixing is a slippery slope towards tearing it down and starting over. But of course this is never the case. Despite right wing rhetoric, there are no slippery slopes towards leftism; every time it has succeeded in history it has come as a sudden, very quick rejection of the status quo. 

Okay, so, before I say anything else are you talking about a hypothetical situation where a liberal is actually attempting to fix something?  Or are they saying they're "fixing something" but really trying to solidify their power?

Which scenario?

 

[ekbeats]

I assume you mean “good” polices not “hood” policies, lol. 
Putting aside the question of whether or not Trump’s policies are “good” (because I’m afraid we will never see eye to eye on that), would you agree with my assessment in the OP that they generally represent a movement away from traditional conservatism and towards nationalism? 

Absolutely.  Protectionism and tariffs don’t resemble any of the Conservatism I grew up with in the 80’s.  I said back when Trump was elected that some of his international policies - questioning the need for the US to continue spending more than its fair share on NATO, and bringing some of the manufacturing bass back to America - were good things.  But it was all couched in racist rhetoric that unfortunately branded it as an ugly form of Nationalism.  That doesn’t mean those policies were wrong.  We are entering a new post Cold War era and the US doesn’t have the wealth anymore to continue its massive military spending.  And China needed to be checked.  We grew way too dependent on them economically, which we saw during Covid.  China is our #1 enemy in the world now and going forward.  Trump was 100% right about that.

 

[timschochet]

Okay, so, before I say anything else are you talking about a hypothetical situation where a liberal is actually attempting to fix something?  Or are they saying they're "fixing something" but really trying to solidify their power?

Which scenario?

For the sake of THIS discussion, which has gone very smoothly so far, how about we take liberals, leftists, conservatives and nationalists at their word about their motives and not attempt to ascribe other motives to them? 

 

[timschochet]

Absolutely.  Protectionism and tariffs don’t resemble any of the Conservatism I grew up with in the 80’s.  I said back when Trump was elected that some of his international policies - questioning the need for the US to continue spending more than its fair share on NATO, and bringing some of the manufacturing bass back to America - were good things.  But it was all couched in racist rhetoric that unfortunately branded it as an ugly form of Nationalism.  That doesn’t mean those policies were wrong.  We are entering a new post Cold War era and the US doesn’t have the wealth anymore to continue its massive military spending.  And China needed to be checked.  We grew way too dependent on them economically, which we saw during Covid.  China is our #1 enemy in the world now and going forward.  Trump was 100% right about that.

Thank you. On this very key point, I believe that our #1 enemy is Russia followed closely by increasing nationalism around the globe. China is both a trading opponent and a trading ally, but not an enemy. 

 

[BladeRunner]

For the sake of THIS discussion, which has gone very smoothly so far, how about we take liberals, leftists, conservatives and nationalists at their word about their motives and not attempt to ascribe other motives to them? 

Well, that's the whole problem.  We can't. 

 

[timschochet]

Well, that's the whole problem.  We can't. 

Why not? 
I’m sure you disagree with many aspects of Biden’s budget, but you know and I know that it’s nowhere near as radical as a Bernie or AOC budget would be. Why can’t you be willing to compromise and deal with the Bidens of the world? Why assume they’re secretly Bernie types? 

 

[Grace Under Pressure]

I think both sides are completely off the rails at this point, so I refuse to choose a side. I am choosing not to decide, therefore I still have made a choice.  Which puts me in the vast minority. 

I also choose free will. To me, that means I have the right to vote for either party in any election. And I choose the criteria. For example, believing a person’s character is paramount, which I think lends itself to gravitating toward the center. I feel like the extremists on both “sides” are selling hate/division, especially hatred of the “other side”, which is a concept I reject. 

 

[BladeRunner]

Why not? 
I’m sure you disagree with many aspects of Biden’s budget, but you know and I know that it’s nowhere near as radical as a Bernie or AOC budget would be. Why can’t you be willing to compromise and deal with the Bidens of the world? Why assume they’re secretly Bernie types? 

Because, IMO, Biden is not really in control.  Further, Biden isn't really the "traditional Democrat" anymore that you think he is.  I believe @ekbeats posted an article earlier that explained how he isn't.  

I'm not necessarily unwilling to compromise, but when the POTUS can't speak coherently, calls out young girls from the podium and says things like "I can't answer anymore questions or I'll get in trouble" that CLEARLY tells me he's not in control.  Maybe if the real person or persons came forward so we can see who is making the decisions then maybe WE can make a better informed decision on whether we should compromise or not.

 

[timschochet]

Because, IMO, Biden is not really in control.  Further, Biden isn't really the "traditional Democrat" anymore that you think he is.  I believe @ekbeats posted an article earlier that explained how he isn't.  

I'm not necessarily unwilling to compromise, but when the POTUS can't speak coherently, calls out young girls from the podium and says things like "I can't answer anymore questions or I'll get in trouble" that CLEARLY tells me he's not in control.  Maybe if the real person or persons came forward so we can see who is making the decisions then maybe WE can make a better informed decision on whether we should compromise or not.

OK. IMO you’re letting irrelevancies have too much influence on your thinking, but it’s your prerogative. 

 

[ekbeats]

Thank you. On this very key point, I believe that our #1 enemy is Russia followed closely by increasing nationalism around the globe. China is both a trading opponent and a trading ally, but not an enemy. 

I’m not worried about Russia.  They’re fading and IMO their major role going forward is who they end up aligning with in the bilateral balance of power between us and China.

 

[rockaction]

One thing I've noticed that is dangerous is that Republicans are constantly coming up with institutionalized fictions; that is, they believe and say things that aren't real or are delivered with a hate or message that is so over-the-top that they're dismissed out of hand by respectable thinkers. Democrats, on the other hand, seek the bleakest of realities, always using anecdotal evidence to show that an entire system or institution is corrupt, and therefore, must be done away with. Both sides are really dangerous. One is anchored in a fictive state, the other in a completely distorted, and potentially more dangerous distorted state that has elements of truth but is fallacious on the whole.

Take police interactions, for example. It would have behooved the left to have promulgated rational reforms to policing at the local and state levels, e.g., no-knock raids being illegal, certain types of stops or behaviors being illegal, greater civic oversight of unions and bad actors, etc., but instead you had calls to "defund the police" and dismantle the system because of select bad actors on bad occasions. Instead of focusing on things that could be effectively changed for the better, the insistence on throwing the baby out with the bathwater reigned supreme in frustration .

On the right, you had conspiratorial fantasies and the "Kung Fu-Flu." Any thought of blaming a lab where the coronavirus originated THAT DEALT WITH THAT VERY VIRUS was regarded as foolishness because of the people and the way the message was delivered. It was delivered with bombast, exaggeration, no proof, and sheer dislike of another country. The message was totally lost in the delivery. This is a problem, especially for a party that seems to struggle with realities and messaging. They can't even seem to get it right when they do get it right.

So what do we do? I don't know. I know that the divisions, once small, when looked at through these lenses, make it impossible to find common ground. One lives in untruths and salacious messaging, the other looks at the bad effects of the system with microscopic clarity and pretends that it is the whole of the system. There really is no common ground at that point.

 

[dkp993]

Good and accurate description (imho) of the state of affairs @rockaction.    Scary times.  

 

[Shula-holic]

Despite Biden’s election victory, my biggest concern about American politics is slowly, inexorably coming to pass- we’re moving away from the center, towards the extremes. 
 

The Republican Party is all but dominated now by a nationalist, populist, nativist viewpoint with a lot of white grievance thrown in for good measure. Trump is either a catalyst for this or merely a symptom depending on your point of view, but the change is evident- the GOP is no longer the party of limited government and traditional conservative principles that your grandfather knew. 
 

The Democratic Party is increasingly being taken over by leftists who reject the traditional liberal idea of tinkering with our society in order to improve it. These leftists believe that our society is fundamentally flawed and that tinkering will do no good; they seek its transformation. I and many other liberals believed (hoped?) that Biden’s victory, even more so his nomination last year, was a major defeat for these forces. It was a defeat but it seems temporary at best. They’re getting louder and louder. They’re pushing Biden, and they’re very effectively using Republican intransigence to convince independents that we have to go along with them to get anything done. They may be right about that, but their plans scare me. 
 

My biggest political nightmare is that all of our elections are going to become a battle between a bunch of Marjorie Taylor Greenes vs a bunch of AOCs. Is there no way out of this? 

A divorce?  I almost chuckle when I suggest this but I once thought it unimaginable, it's not so far fetched anymore.  I also don't think independents are siding with the leftists, I think they may be disgruntled they don't have much of a political place to turn anymore.

 

[The Commish]

I've been telling you for the better part of 7-8 years that the GOP and Dems are on the same path.  Yes, different points on the path, but the same path....glad you're coming around Tim.

"Two sides of the same coin" is becoming more and more true every single day.

 

[Shula-holic]

I assume you mean “good” polices not “hood” policies, lol. 
Putting aside the question of whether or not Trump’s policies are “good” (because I’m afraid we will never see eye to eye on that), would you agree with my assessment in the OP that they generally represent a movement away from traditional conservatism and towards nationalism? 

I would agree with this.  Have a friend who is a history professor who told me awhile back, and has been interviewed on this subject, that the classic liberal/conservative camps politically are shifting to more nationalist vs leftist.  His thought is it's just a realigning of our politics and the old camps are never going to be the sides going forward.

 

[lazyike]

A divorce?  I almost chuckle when I suggest this but I once thought it unimaginable, it's not so far fetched anymore.  I also don't think independents are siding with the leftists, I think they may be disgruntled they don't have much of a political place to turn anymore.

I really dont have a political party that has agenda or policy I agree with anymore. While my position on some things has moderated over the past few years both major party's extremism are moving away faster and further from me than I am from them. Currently I am more disenfranchised by the Trump nutjobs than the progressives.

 

[joffer]

lol @ “Biden is not really in control”.  good lord.

 

[dkp993]

A divorce?  I almost chuckle when I suggest this but I once thought it unimaginable, it's not so far fetched anymore.  I also don't think independents are siding with the leftists, I think they may be disgruntled they don't have much of a political place to turn anymore.

 

100%.  Given a choice on which side I’m more frustrated or disenchanted with I would really struggle to pick.  

 

[BladeRunner]

lol @ “Biden is not really in control”.  good lord.

Dude is not in control of his faculties which puts his control of the POTUS in question as well. 

You've either been living in a cave or you just don't want to admit the truth.  Have you seen him speak at all?  All kinds of videos out there.  I've explained my position.  It's sound and indisputable. 

I also love the special brand of cowards who are too afraid to quote the original post they're making fun of, hoping the OP won't see them. 

 

[matuski]

I just saw a study about extremism and partisan ideology with respect to misinformation being believed as true. It was thirty-seven bucks, so I only read the abstract's conclusion, but the study found that if you believe that your party is part of your identity that you're more likely to believe in things that are false as well as that you're more likely to be extreme.

That's what each hardened side sells, I think. The chance for party to become part of your core, your identity. That's when I think it gets dangerous.

As invisible beings in the sky lose sway, politics steps right in as a natural replacement for religion.  No critical thought necessary here.

 

[timschochet]

lol @ “Biden is not really in control”.  good lord.

It’s interesting how many conservatives seem to believe this. It’s not the first time of course. During the 2nd half of Reagan’s term, there was a LOT of talk among liberals that he had lost it, that Nancy was making decisions. (Unfortunately this was given added credence later when Reagan developed Alzheimer’s.) Though he was younger, George W Bush also received similar treatment- it was believed that he allowed **** Cheney to make all his decisions. 
I have a theory about this: you know what Reagan, George W Bush, and Joe Biden all have in common? They’re all personally liked by the public. The public generally, per polling, admire and respected them. When someone is personally popular it’s difficult for the other side to attack them directly. So they either create dark conspiracies, or they imply that these folks are really figureheads, not in charge, and there are sinister forces in control behind the curtain, pulling the strings. It works every time (on some.) 

 

[AAABatteries]

While I mostly agree with the general premise I will also say we vastly overate how much people care.  Nobody who doesn’t vote cares and a good portion of people who do vote don’t give a #### either.  It’s vocal minorities you are talking about, IMO. 

 

[timschochet]

While I mostly agree with the general premise I will also say we vastly overate how much people care.  Nobody who doesn’t vote cares and a good portion of people who do vote don’t give a #### either.  It’s vocal minorities you are talking about, IMO. 

Vocal minorities decide our politics and always have. That’s not necessarily a bad thing. 
What’s dangerous about populism, coming from left or right, is that it creates a larger vocal minority than normal and threatens to swamp its opposition, implementing policies based solely on emotion and anger.  

 

[AAABatteries]

Vocal minorities decide our politics and always have. That’s not necessarily a bad thing. 
What’s dangerous about populism, coming from left or right, is that it creates a larger vocal minority than normal and threatens to swamp its opposition, implementing policies based solely on emotion and anger.  

I guess my point is the idea that it could go further than that seems kind of impossible to me.  And honestly we are so divided we don’t see any real policy changes.  Maybe I would be concerned if one party got so much control that your MTG or AOC really implement anything they want.  Doesn’t seem likely any time soon.  Maybe I’m some states.

 

[sho nuff]

While I mostly agree with the general premise I will also say we vastly overate how much people care.  Nobody who doesn’t vote cares and a good portion of people who do vote don’t give a #### either.  It’s vocal minorities you are talking about, IMO. 

Which may be why we are where we are.  People don’t care and just keep voting for the party no matter how extreme it goes.

 

[rockaction]

As invisible beings in the sky lose sway, politics steps right in as a natural replacement for religion.  No critical thought necessary here.

This too. This is very, very true.

 

[joffer]

This too. This is very, very true.

politics doesn’t replace religion.  It exploits it.

 

[rockaction]

politics doesn’t replace religion.  It exploits it.

I think that as the number of believers dips, the intensity of the religiosity normally reserved for religion manifests in squabbles about the public sphere.

 

[ekbeats]

A divorce?  I almost chuckle when I suggest this but I once thought it unimaginable, it's not so far fetched anymore.

I’m convinced this is where we are going.  The divisions are too deep and it’s only getting worse.  I thought things would settle down after Trump and that Biden would be a moderating influence, but that hasn’t come to pass.  Illegal immigration is accelerating the browning of America and with identity politics being the focal point of the Democratic Party it’s inevitable that things are going to get really bad in the next 10-20 years.  At some point one of our deeply divisive issues will come to a flashpoint and things will explode.  You can’t have a country without a nation.  Check that - you can - but it is destined for Balkanization and eventually Civil War. 

 

[fruity pebbles]

I've been telling you for the better part of 7-8 years that the GOP and Dems are on the same path.  Yes, different points on the path, but the same path....glad you're coming around Tim.

"Two sides of the same coin" is becoming more and more true every single day.

Agree 100%. Personally think both sides ultimately want a dependent society and the only difference is how they arrive there. 

 

[dkp993]

politics doesn’t replace religion.  It exploits it.

I think Trumpism begs to differ. 

 

[BladeRunner]

I think Trumpism begs to differ. 

Okay, you can stop this. Were you around at all when Obama was President?

 

[sho nuff]

Okay, you can stop this. Were you around at all when Obama was President?

Yes…the devotion wasn’t even close to the same.