We’re moving away from the center (1 Viewer)

[dkp993]

Okay, you can stop this. Were you around at all when Obama was President?

We’ve never seen anything like the love for Trump his followers have, nothing even close in my lifetime.  The Obama love was still on the scale of normal political crap. Trumpism is a whole level of magnitude above anything remotely close to Obama. I was out looking at houses today and Trump flags are still flying on homes, and there are 3 pop up Trump tent merchandise stands in and around my area that are still there day in and day out selling MAGA ####.   It’s laughable you think this compares to Obama. 

 

[djmich]

Agree 100%. Personally think both sides ultimately want a dependent society and the only difference is how they arrive there. 

Can you expand upon this.  Conservatives are, for example, in favor of something like UBI...they're just using a different strategy than democrats to get it?

 

[matuski]

This too. This is very, very true.

It is actually more scary than invisible sky surfers.

Real time humans control the message taken as gospel.

 

[FairWarning]

Which may be why we are where we are.  People don’t care and just keep voting for the party no matter how extreme it goes.

Which is why we really need a thIrd party to emerge.  It would consist of the sane ideas of the left and the right.

 

[Opie]

Yes…the devotion wasn’t even close to the same.

Really?

 

[sho nuff]

Really?

Yes really.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I liked Obama.  I didn't vote for him, but I didn't mind him winning two elections -- he was a lot better than McCain and in the general tier as Romney.  

Some of the people who supported Obama were really weird and creepy about it.  We had a guy here, @adonis, who I think saw himself as some sort of John the Baptist figure for Obama, with this forum being his personal Jordan river.  There was no other presidential campaign in my lifetime that had that same culty aspect to it until, obviously, Trump came along and dialed it up to 11.  

One thing that I find refreshing about Biden is that there is absolutely zero danger of him ever sparking a cult of personality. 

 

[sho nuff]

I liked Obama.  I didn't vote for him, but I didn't mind him winning two elections -- he was a lot better than McCain and in the general tier as Romney.  

Some of the people who supported Obama were really weird and creepy about it.  We had a guy here, @adonis, who I think saw himself as some sort of John the Baptist figure for Obama, with this forum being his personal Jordan river.  There was no other presidential campaign in my lifetime that had that same culty aspect to it until, obviously, Trump came along and dialed it up to 11.  

One thing that I find refreshing about Biden is that there is absolutely zero danger of him ever sparking a cult of personality. 

Agreed…hopefully no more after Trump as well.

 

[BladeRunner]

We’ve never seen anything like the love for Trump his followers have, nothing even close in my lifetime.  The Obama love was still on the scale of normal political crap. Trumpism is a whole level of magnitude above anything remotely close to Obama. I was out looking at houses today and Trump flags are still flying on homes, and there are 3 pop up Trump tent merchandise stands in and around my area that are still there day in and day out selling MAGA ####.   It’s laughable you think this compares to Obama. 

B and S as far as "normal political crap".  Obama had a following that would have made Jim Jones jealous.

What's "laughable" is you think this wasn't the case.  Not only did I live with a person that worshipped the ground Obama walked on, I married her.  and she wasn't the only one as anyone who was alive during 2009-2016 can attest to.   And yes, in answer to the question you have in your head it can get pretty lively around here. 

See this post for some fine rebuttal.  As usual, IK drops the knowledge - even more than @knowledge dropper. 

 

[Stealthycat]

Despite Biden’s election victory, my biggest concern about American politics is slowly, inexorably coming to pass- we’re moving away from the center, towards the extremes. 
 

The Republican Party is all but dominated now by a nationalist, populist, nativist viewpoint with a lot of white grievance thrown in for good measure. Trump is either a catalyst for this or merely a symptom depending on your point of view, but the change is evident- the GOP is no longer the party of limited government and traditional conservative principles that your grandfather knew. 
 

The Democratic Party is increasingly being taken over by leftists who reject the traditional liberal idea of tinkering with our society in order to improve it. These leftists believe that our society is fundamentally flawed and that tinkering will do no good; they seek its transformation. I and many other liberals believed (hoped?) that Biden’s victory, even more so his nomination last year, was a major defeat for these forces. It was a defeat but it seems temporary at best. They’re getting louder and louder. They’re pushing Biden, and they’re very effectively using Republican intransigence to convince independents that we have to go along with them to get anything done. They may be right about that, but their plans scare me. 
 

My biggest political nightmare is that all of our elections are going to become a battle between a bunch of Marjorie Taylor Greenes vs a bunch of AOCs. Is there no way out of this? 

why didn't you mention that Democrats have a lot of black grievances? 

 

[Summer Wheat]

I think both sides are completely off the rails at this point, so I refuse to choose a side. I am choosing not to decide, therefore I still have made a choice.  Which puts me in the vast minority. 

Pretty much where I am at right now.  I have zero faith in either party. Could not stand Trump when he was in office and feel Biden is just an old puppet.  I watched some old videos of Biden to try and get a feel what he was like in the 80s and 90s.  Did not seem too sharp then either.

 

[dkp993]

See this post for some fine rebuttal.  As usual, IK drops the knowledge - even more than @knowledge dropper. 

Edited 2 hours ago by BladeRunner

So you dispute my claim (that Trumpism is like a religion) then quote a person saying he nailed it yet the person says this, supporting my claim.  You make no sense Blade. 

here was no other presidential campaign in my lifetime that had that same culty aspect to it until, obviously, Trump came along and dialed it up to 11.  

 

[Gilroy34]

Really?

OMG that is so disgusting.  Unreal

 

[Thunderlips]

Agreed…hopefully no more after Trump as well.

I think one of the key components of Obama, that Trumplicans leave out is that for a large portion of African Americans in this country....he was a sign of proof that there wasn't a limit to success for black children in this country.  

 

[Opie]

Yes really.

Well...you're gonna have to show me that video of a classroom full of kids, singing homage to President Trump as instructed by their teacher.

 

[BladeRunner]

So you dispute my claim (that Trumpism is like a religion) then quote a person saying he nailed it yet the person says this, supporting my claim.  You make no sense Blade. 

Maybe you missed "the same culty aspect" part?  Or maybe just ignored it?  

 

[sho nuff]

Well...you're gonna have to show me that video of a classroom full of kids are singing homage to President Trump as instructed by their teachers 

Or point to people here calling him father…or the numerous mentions of stands still selling Trump stuff?  Or the amount of people still sending him money?

 

[dkp993]

Maybe you missed "the same culty aspect" part?  Or maybe just ignored it?  

Dialed up to 11.  
 

My original statement, which you argued with, was that Trumpism is like a religion.  Not that it was the first or only.  It’s like you are arguing just to argue.  Ok so Obamaism was like a religion too ( I don’t agree as it’s on the normal political scale to me like Reaganism IMO, but this has nothing to do with my point), cool.  Still nothing like we’ve seen from the Trump crowd, and your boy IK agrees.  So what is your point?

 

[Opie]

Or point to people here calling him father…or the numerous mentions of stands still selling Trump stuff?  Or the amount of people still sending him money?

Nah...I'll wait for you to show me the video of the kids being indoctrinated in the classroom by their teacher

That'll prove it's the same 

 

[The Commish]

Is it weird to anyone else why people here (and it happens with both "sides" to an extent) are so desperate to equate what their "side" is doing to the "side" they absolutely abhor, think is the scum of the earth and have nothing but disdain for?  This is beyond the standard garden variety "hypocrisy" shtick.  It's really ####### weird to me.

 

[timschochet]

Is it weird to anyone else why people here (and it happens with both "sides" to an extent) are so desperate to equate what their "side" is doing to the "side" they absolutely abhor, think is the scum of the earth and have nothing but disdain for?  This is beyond the standard garden variety "hypocrisy" shtick.  It's really ####### weird to me.

No. 
They’re just trying to score a win IMO. They don’t consider the irony. 

 

[timschochet]

I liked Obama.  I didn't vote for him, but I didn't mind him winning two elections -- he was a lot better than McCain and in the general tier as Romney.  

Some of the people who supported Obama were really weird and creepy about it.  We had a guy here, @adonis, who I think saw himself as some sort of John the Baptist figure for Obama, with this forum being his personal Jordan river.  There was no other presidential campaign in my lifetime that had that same culty aspect to it until, obviously, Trump came along and dialed it up to 11.  

One thing that I find refreshing about Biden is that there is absolutely zero danger of him ever sparking a cult of personality. 

I agree with this except that I think the word “cult” is inaccurate here- I don’t believe the allegiance to Obama or Trump was blind or unthinking, which is what a cult or cult of personality entails. Both men are populists (Trump to a much greater degree and it isn’t really close) and that is the key to the support. 

 

[timschochet]

Or point to people here calling him father…

So far as I know, this particular term was created by @knowledge dropper and @HellToupee in this forum. It’s not used outside of it. The two of them use it as a form of trolling because they know it’s going to piss anti-Trump people off. 

 

[sho nuff]

Nah...I'll wait for you to show me the video of the kids being indoctrinated in the classroom by their teacher

That'll prove it's the same 

Did I claim kids were singing?  Id disagree that video was indoctrination.

And its not the same…the Trump devotion is far worse.  People willing to break into the Capitol and assault police for the guy.

 

[Amused to Death]

Did I claim kids were singing?  Id disagree that video was indoctrination.

And its not the same…the Trump devotion is far worse.  People willing to break into the Capitol and assault police for the guy.

Some are even willing to try to hunt down the VP because of some perceived slight that denied Trump a second term.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

I'm not sure if I agree or disagree.  Maybe I missed it but I haven't really seen any examples of policy shifts to the left listed in this thread.  

If I were making the argument that democrats are shifting left I guess I would go with-

• The sticker numbers on the stimulus
  
• Some of what was included in the stimulus bill  
  
• The sticker numbers on the infrastructure bill
  
• Some of what was included in the infrastructure bill
  
• Calls to defund the police
  
• Expanding the ACA
  
• Civil rights expansion to new groups
  
• Drug policy
  

I would not include

• left vs right civility
  
• college students shouting down and/or forcing the cancelation of speakers they don't like
  
• Anti Trumpism
  
• Not believing that a deal can be accomplished with republican
  

Am I missing significant items?   Because other than maybe how much is being proposing to spend, or democrats being bold for a change I don't see any real big change in direction.   Maybe I'm too focused on policy but it seems like almost all of this discussion has been on behavior as opposed to policy direction.  

Again I'm not sure whether I agree we are moving to the extremes as far as governing as opposed to listening too much to the loudest, most obnoxious banner carriers.  Not really the same to me.  As for policy the democrats have been bolder especially but not limited to  "sticker prices" but the items are just typical education, jobs, health care, family care, infrastructure - both green and otherwise, tax those most able to afford it.  Or I am missing some things.

 

[timschochet]

I'm not sure if I agree or disagree.  Maybe I missed it but I haven't really seen any examples of policy shifts to the left listed in this thread.  

If I were making the argument that democrats are shifting left I guess I would go with-

• The sticker numbers on the stimulus
  
• Some of what was included in the stimulus bill  
  
• The sticker numbers on the infrastructure bill
  
• Some of what was included in the infrastructure bill
  
• Calls to defund the police
  
• Expanding the ACA
  
• Civil rights expansion to new groups
  
• Drug policy
  

I would not include

• left vs right civility
  
• college students shouting down and/or forcing the cancelation of speakers they don't like
  
• Anti Trumpism
  
• Not believing that a deal can be accomplished with republican
  

Am I missing significant items?   Because other than maybe how much is being proposing to spend, or democrats being bold for a change I don't see any real big change in direction.   Maybe I'm too focused on policy but it seems like almost all of this discussion has been on behavior as opposed to policy direction.  

Again I'm not sure whether I agree we are moving to the extremes as far as governing as opposed to listening too much to the loudest, most obnoxious banner carriers.  Not really the same to me.  As for policy the democrats have been bolder especially but not limited to  "sticker prices" but the items are just typical education, jobs, health care, family care, infrastructure - both green and otherwise, tax those most able to afford it.  Or I am missing some things.

I agree with your distinctions. 

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

This is kind of a casual belief rather than an observation based on a lot of research, but I think Biden's administration is also filled with younger "up and comers" and have left out some of the Obama and Biden "old school" democrats and while policy wise they are about the same as traditional democrats attitude wise they are closer to some of the impatience of say an AOC.    Thus some of the "bigger and bolder" asks.

 

[quick-hands]

We’ve never seen anything like the love for Trump his followers have, nothing even close in my lifetime.  The Obama love was still on the scale of normal political crap. Trumpism is a whole level of magnitude above anything remotely close to Obama. I was out looking at houses today and Trump flags are still flying on homes, and there are 3 pop up Trump tent merchandise stands in and around my area that are still there day in and day out selling MAGA ####.   It’s laughable you think this compares to Obama. 

The difference is really obama lost his mojo going into second term.   Trumps maga grew

 

[Caveman33]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/100-000-sign-online-petition-161010755.html

Is this story an example of our society moving away from the center?  A student draped a flag over his gown when he walked up to stage at his high school graduation and the principal refused to hand him his diploma.  The principal later asked him to apologize for causing a disturbance and the student refused.

 

[The Commish]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/100-000-sign-online-petition-161010755.html

Is this story an example of our society moving away from the center?  A student draped a flag over his gown when he walked up to stage at his high school graduation and the principal refused to hand him his diploma.  The principal later asked him to apologize for causing a disturbance and the student refused.

Not sure that's the proper way to frame it.  This is a kid being a #### and many of us were ##### at that age.  It's also being disrespectful to our flag....something that both "sides" should be able to agree on, but I doubt will.  

 

[jm192]

Well as far as the misinformation part I started a whole thread about that so I’m sure you know what I think. But conservatives (and some leftists as well) largely reject my defense of the mainstream media. In some ways, I acknowledge, it’s an idealistic defense. Rather than defend each incident that causes not unreasonable criticism, I simply point out that society is better off when there is an authoritative voice presenting the news that everybody accepts, and if not the MSM, then who? But we may be past the point where I can convince anybody with that argument. 

MSM very clearly bias.  When Lemon is on there talking down to conservatives/Republicans--that's not good for Democracy.  He literally shames people for voting "the wrong way."  Should we have an authoritative voice doing that?

 

[Caveman33]

Not sure that's the proper way to frame it.  This is a kid being a #### and many of us were ##### at that age.  It's also being disrespectful to our flag....something that both "sides" should be able to agree on, but I doubt will.  

I see it as an example of the shift from center in our society.  It was a selfish, attention seeking move by the student and his family.  I doubt a story like this would gain national attention or favorable news coverage a few years ago.  Stunts like this are now celebrated and viewed as triumph over oppression, and very few people in the MSM will risk criticizing such behavior.

 

[The Commish]

I see it as an example of the shift from center in our society.  It was a selfish, attention seeking move by the student and his family.  I doubt a story like this would gain national attention or favorable news coverage a few years ago.  Stunts like this are now celebrated and viewed as triumph over oppression, and very few people in the MSM will risk criticizing such behavior.

ok

My life has been littered with reports of people doing selfish things for attention, but I understand that might not be true for everyone.  

 

[Herb]

MSM very clearly bias.  When Lemon is on there talking down to conservatives/Republicans--that's not good for Democracy.  He literally shames people for voting "the wrong way."  Should we have an authoritative voice doing that?

Not much we can do about this, given money is what drives it and the first amendment protects it. Critical thinking would solve some of these problems,  but we're too busy arguing about the horrible scourge of Critical Race Theory to realize the best way to avoid polarization is to teach how to think, not what to think.

 

[Caveman33]

ok

My life has been littered with reports of people doing selfish things for attention, but I understand that might not be true for everyone.  

People doing selfish things for attention is not where the change has occurred.  The change is in how the MSM covers such stunts.  Maybe we disagree on this.

 

[The Commish]

People doing selfish things for attention is not where the change has occurred.  The change is in how the MSM covers such stunts.  Maybe we disagree on this.

Maybe?  Don't know.  Our MSM puts on TV whatever is going to get your eyeballs.  I stopped watching any of that stuff about 5 years ago.  It's been an interesting experiment to say the least.  

 

[AAABatteries]

Is it weird to anyone else why people here (and it happens with both "sides" to an extent) are so desperate to equate what their "side" is doing to the "side" they absolutely abhor, think is the scum of the earth and have nothing but disdain for?  This is beyond the standard garden variety "hypocrisy" shtick.  It's really ####### weird to me.

I think it's more weird to have sides to begin with - this isn't a ####### football game.

 

[The Commish]

I think it's more weird to have sides to begin with - this isn't a ####### football game.

You aren't wrong GB

 

[supermike80]

I think it's more weird to have sides to begin with - this isn't a ####### football game.

Yeah!!!  I think  Its weird countries even have borders!!   If we just fixed that!!

 

[zoonation]

I think both sides are completely off the rails at this point, so I refuse to choose a side. I am choosing not to decide, therefore I still have made a choice.  Which puts me in the vast minority. 

The difference is the far lefties are off the rails with ridiculous and unrealistic ideas, while the far righties (which starts a lot closer to the centre on that side of the aisle) are off the rails with dangerous ones.  

 

[BladeRunner]

The difference is the far lefties are off the rails with ridiculous and unrealistic ideas, while the far righties (which starts a lot closer to the centre on that side of the aisle) are off the rails with dangerous ones.  

WTH?  Wut?    

You don't think Socialist/Marxist/Communist ideas AREN'T dangerous?  That's absurd.  You LITERALLY have them in your party.  And they grow in size every year. 

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

WTH?  Wut?    

You don't think Socialist/Marxist/Communist ideas AREN'T dangerous?  That's absurd.  You LITERALLY have them in your party.  And they grow in size every year. 

Please list the ideas of the radical left that are actual voices in the democratic party that are dangerous.  

For your side I'll go with the tax cuts, anti union, minimal safety net, starve the beast policies that continue to create larger and larger disparities between the haves and have nots.    You know the conditions that might lead to the kind of constant dangerous uprisings we haven't really seen since the Great Depression. 

 

[FairWarning]

Please list the ideas of the radical left that are actual voices in the democratic party that are dangerous.  

For your side I'll go with the tax cuts, anti union, minimal safety net, starve the beast policies that continue to create larger and larger disparities between the haves and have nots.    You know the conditions that might lead to the kind of constant dangerous uprisings we haven't really seen since the Great Depression. 

Well anything involving defunding the police qualifies - especially when their protection isn’t getting cut.

 

[BladeRunner]

Well anything involving defunding the police qualifies - especially when their protection isn’t getting cut.

Also, the whole "racial equity" thing.

 

[ekbeats]

I think one of the key components of Obama, that Trumplicans leave out is that for a large portion of African Americans in this country....he was a sign of proof that there wasn't a limit to success for black children in this country.  

How quickly that was forgotten.  

 

[ekbeats]

Also, the whole "racial equity" thing.

Anything to go with energy too.  If Liberals had their way there’d be no fossil fuels, fracking or nuclear power.  Last summer in CT Liberals started implementing of their energy policies and in one month electricity bills tripled and quadrupled.  There were also blackouts and brownouts that shut down air conditioning during some of the hottest days of the summer.  It literally killed people.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Well anything involving defunding the police qualifies - especially when their protection isn’t getting cut.

I agree with your post to bring this up,  if the person means just that and not  a restructuring of police departments .  Do we have an idea of how prevalent the defend police idea is in the ranks of Democrats in Washington? 

 

[KarmaPolice]

Also, the whole "racial equity" thing.

what specifically is dangerous about this idea? 

and not in your usual Left = Marxist = dangerous general posting sort of way.  

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

I agree with your post to bring this up,  if the person means just that and not  a restructuring of police departments .  Do we have an idea of how prevalent the defend police idea is in the ranks of Democrats in Washington? 

I've made two or three rather large post in other threads about how defund the police could and should mean more than just reorganizing police departments.   I don't want to be a broken record, but to me it also means asking the question as to whether we could achieve the same goal(s) more effectively with less policing and more social services and/or safety net programs?  Are we properly allocating out budgetary resources appropriately or buying "too much policing" at the expense of something else?  Did we cross a threshold where that next dollar spent is no longer buying much of anything a while back, and maybe worst is now counter productive?   (Okay I'm starting to get into a roll so I'll quit before there are ten or twelve long posts on this.)