Were Reggie Bush's stats at USC somehow illegitimate (1 Viewer)

[Doug B]

I just don't get it. The differences between the college and pro games shouldn't be so great as to turn an 8 ypc guy in major college ball into a 2 ypc guy in the NFL. People talk about ingrained habits, instincts, impatience with blockers, etc. Whatever. What are the reasons Bush is failing at rushing in the NFL when he was so effective at USC? And could these reasons have been accutarely foretold before this year's NFL draft, just by looking at USC game tape? Does Bush have some fatal flaw that had zero effect on his college game, but all the effect in the world on his pro prospects?

 

[Ministry of Pain]

I wanted to start a Reggie Bush thread so I'm glad you did the dirty work. Now I grew up in Miami and was exposed to an awful lot of good college football teams in the state of Florida starting in 1983 and moving forward. And with all the great players the UM put forth, not to mention FSU, and UF, I was really surprised when I discovered Reggie Bush.

When I watched Bush at USC for the time he was there, I saw things I had not seen often in college football. It wasn't just raw speed but the combination of speed, agility, and tremendous hands. He has shown he can catch the ball in the NFL, however Bush has not shown that he can make too many people miss. He is avg about 2 yds per carry which is dreadful. You might build a case it is the OL however Deuce McAllister coming back from a snapped ACL is doing well behind the same OL. Maybe the line is not geared to him. What I mean by that is maybe Bush is too fast to hit a hole and does not take his time to allow the blocking to open up like Deuce will do...in fact I am almost sure of it from watching him play this year.

If Bush maintains what he is doing over the final 8 games of the season...people are going to label him a bust. Now he is far from that, however he will be considered a disappoinment as a rookie. Remember when Deuce hit the scene in NO and rushed Ricky right out of town...he hit the ground running and Reggie Bush has really not been able to do the same. I expect Deuce to be back with NO again next season...no reason to get rid of him for now.

 

[Bull Dozier]

I just don't get it. The differences between the college and pro games shouldn't be so great as to turn an 8 ypc guy in major college ball into a 2 ypc guy in the NFL. People talk about ingrained habits, instincts, impatience with blockers, etc. Whatever. What are the reasons Bush is failing at rushing in the NFL when he was so effective at USC? And could these reasons have been accutarely foretold before this year's NFL draft, just by looking at USC game tape? Does Bush have some fatal flaw that had zero effect on his college game, but all the effect in the world on his pro prospects?

Until this guy is the focus of the offense and is getting 15-20 carries a game consistently over a period of time, I don't think any conclusions can be made of what his success as a rusher will be in the NFL.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

I just don't get it. The differences between the college and pro games shouldn't be so great as to turn an 8 ypc guy in major college ball into a 2 ypc guy in the NFL. People talk about ingrained habits, instincts, impatience with blockers, etc. Whatever. What are the reasons Bush is failing at rushing in the NFL when he was so effective at USC? And could these reasons have been accutarely foretold before this year's NFL draft, just by looking at USC game tape? Does Bush have some fatal flaw that had zero effect on his college game, but all the effect in the world on his pro prospects?

Until this guy is the focus of the offense and is getting 15-20 carries a game consistently over a period of time, I don't think any conclusions can be made of what his success as a rusher will be in the NFL.

I would disagree slightly with you BD, because he shared a backfield with LenDale White who scored over 20+ TD at USC as a Senior and he had no problem sharing that backfield and also sharing time with the passing game.

 

[redman]

I just don't get it. The differences between the college and pro games shouldn't be so great as to turn an 8 ypc guy in major college ball into a 2 ypc guy in the NFL. People talk about ingrained habits, instincts, impatience with blockers, etc. Whatever. What are the reasons Bush is failing at rushing in the NFL when he was so effective at USC? And could these reasons have been accutarely foretold before this year's NFL draft, just by looking at USC game tape? Does Bush have some fatal flaw that had zero effect on his college game, but all the effect in the world on his pro prospects?

Until this guy is the focus of the offense and is getting 15-20 carries a game consistently over a period of time, I don't think any conclusions can be made of what his success as a rusher will be in the NFL.

Agreed. This is the kind of thing that may need to be played out over the course of years. If he has a career path like Tiki Barber's, when it's all said and done he won't be labelled a bust despite a slow start. Certainly, his college showing set the bar very high for him, but drawing long term conclusions about him after half a season seems awfully premature.

 

[Doug B]

If Bush maintains what he is doing over the final 8 games of the season...people are going to label him a bust.

I am a New Orleans homer, so even after I wrote the OP, I have to step up in defense of Bush a little.Even without producing much in the way of rushing stats, Bush is helping the Saints win ... and helping a lot. Monte Kiffin (Tampa DC) admitted that the Bucs were selling out to stop Bush. That's pretty much every opponent every week ... opposing coaches and players seem hell-bent on letting any other Saint beat them but Reggie Bush. The entire remaining offensive roster of the Saints has benefitted, and the team is 6-2.

I am waiting for the first Saints opponent not to sell out for Bush ... I'm curious what might happen. At this point, they can't really fear his rushing ability, unless NFL coaches see something in Bush on tape that doesn't impress on even the knowledgable fan.

 

[Bull Dozier]

I just don't get it. The differences between the college and pro games shouldn't be so great as to turn an 8 ypc guy in major college ball into a 2 ypc guy in the NFL. People talk about ingrained habits, instincts, impatience with blockers, etc. Whatever. What are the reasons Bush is failing at rushing in the NFL when he was so effective at USC? And could these reasons have been accutarely foretold before this year's NFL draft, just by looking at USC game tape? Does Bush have some fatal flaw that had zero effect on his college game, but all the effect in the world on his pro prospects?

Until this guy is the focus of the offense and is getting 15-20 carries a game consistently over a period of time, I don't think any conclusions can be made of what his success as a rusher will be in the NFL.

I would disagree slightly with you BD, because he shared a backfield with LenDale White who scored over 20+ TD at USC as a Senior and he had no problem sharing that backfield and also sharing time with the passing game.

He's not playing against college players in the NFL. Sure, in college, when you are quicker and faster than everyone on the field, you don't need to get into the rhythm of the game, you don't need repeated carries to be able to bust that long one, etc etc. In college, Bush can take his 10 carries and go nuts because his talent outclasses everyone else on the field. The difference isn't so great now and he needs the same benefits as every other NFL RB to make a real comparison. Even if LT, widely considered the best RB in the league, was only getting 10 carries a game would not be putting up the same per carry numbers he does overall. In his career, LT has carried the ball 15 times or fewer 12 times. In 9 of the 12 games, he's averaged less than 4 yards per carry, and his overally y/c in those 12 games is 3.6. Is this a good yardstick of LT's talents? Considering all the invalidity of this sample, it is a larger sample size that Bush's career to this point.Edited to add, in Bush two highest carry games, he has his best y/c averages. In week 1 he had 4.4 ypc on 14 carries, and in week 3 he had 4.1 ypc on 13 carries.

 

[icehouse]

I just don't get it. The differences between the college and pro games shouldn't be so great as to turn an 8 ypc guy in major college ball into a 2 ypc guy in the NFL. People talk about ingrained habits, instincts, impatience with blockers, etc. Whatever. What are the reasons Bush is failing at rushing in the NFL when he was so effective at USC? And could these reasons have been accutarely foretold before this year's NFL draft, just by looking at USC game tape? Does Bush have some fatal flaw that had zero effect on his college game, but all the effect in the world on his pro prospects?

Until this guy is the focus of the offense and is getting 15-20 carries a game consistently over a period of time, I don't think any conclusions can be made of what his success as a rusher will be in the NFL.

Why do folks keep using this excuse? He isn't the only back splitting carries (not even the only rookie), and he get's plenty of chances in the passing game. Bush has been a dissapointment so far but he is only a rookie and can still get better. I just wish folks would stop making excuses for his production so far, and stop trying to inflate his impact. Just call a spade a spade.

 

[John Mamula]

I just don't get it. The differences between the college and pro games shouldn't be so great as to turn an 8 ypc guy in major college ball into a 2 ypc guy in the NFL. People talk about ingrained habits, instincts, impatience with blockers, etc. Whatever. What are the reasons Bush is failing at rushing in the NFL when he was so effective at USC? And could these reasons have been accutarely foretold before this year's NFL draft, just by looking at USC game tape? Does Bush have some fatal flaw that had zero effect on his college game, but all the effect in the world on his pro prospects?

Until this guy is the focus of the offense and is getting 15-20 carries a game consistently over a period of time, I don't think any conclusions can be made of what his success as a rusher will be in the NFL.

Why do folks keep using this excuse? He isn't the only back splitting carries (not even the only rookie), and he get's plenty of chances in the passing game. Bush has been a dissapointment so far but he is only a rookie and can still get better. I just wish folks would stop making excuses for his production so far, and stop trying to inflate his impact. Just call a spade a spade.

no need to be racist.

 

[Eraser]

If Bush maintains what he is doing over the final 8 games of the season...people are going to label him a bust.

I am a New Orleans homer, so even after I wrote the OP, I have to step up in defense of Bush a little.Even without producing much in the way of rushing stats, Bush is helping the Saints win ... and helping a lot. Monte Kiffin (Tampa DC) admitted that the Bucs were selling out to stop Bush. That's pretty much every opponent every week ... opposing coaches and players seem hell-bent on letting any other Saint beat them but Reggie Bush. The entire remaining offensive roster of the Saints has benefitted, and the team is 6-2.

I am waiting for the first Saints opponent not to sell out for Bush ... I'm curious what might happen. At this point, they can't really fear his rushing ability, unless NFL coaches see something in Bush on tape that doesn't impress on even the knowledgable fan.

Bush is no more than the 3rd most important off-season addition. To this point i would chalk up 1 extra win because of Bush.

 

[EdwardCat]

Bush owners are making the same mistake I made with LT. You need to have patience. He will pay off in the long run. Yes, all you re-draft owners are probably screwed for this year. He will be a great RB over the course of his career, though. Unfortunately, he has to split time with an incumbent RB.

 

[icehouse]

I just don't get it. The differences between the college and pro games shouldn't be so great as to turn an 8 ypc guy in major college ball into a 2 ypc guy in the NFL. People talk about ingrained habits, instincts, impatience with blockers, etc. Whatever. What are the reasons Bush is failing at rushing in the NFL when he was so effective at USC? And could these reasons have been accutarely foretold before this year's NFL draft, just by looking at USC game tape? Does Bush have some fatal flaw that had zero effect on his college game, but all the effect in the world on his pro prospects?

Until this guy is the focus of the offense and is getting 15-20 carries a game consistently over a period of time, I don't think any conclusions can be made of what his success as a rusher will be in the NFL.

Why do folks keep using this excuse? He isn't the only back splitting carries (not even the only rookie), and he get's plenty of chances in the passing game. Bush has been a dissapointment so far but he is only a rookie and can still get better. I just wish folks would stop making excuses for his production so far, and stop trying to inflate his impact. Just call a spade a spade.

no need to be racist.

LOL, are you serious?

 

[Bevo]

First of all I still think that Bush is going to be a very, very good RB over his career, he is just getting off to a bit of slow start rushing the ball.

Why did he appear better at USC? I think the main reason is that USC was absolutely loaded with talent (especially on offense) compared to most of the teams that USC played and this lead to Bush often running through holes the size of a Mack truck; he was often to the 2nd or 3rd level of the defense before anyone laid a finger on him. That combined with his extraordinary physical talents lead to some incredible plays. With the Saints he is with a team that is pretty good on offense but the Saints (especially the O-Line) are not overwhelmingly more talented than the teams they are playing. If the Saints can upgrade the play of their O-Line I think you will see a lot more of the "college type" results from Bush.

 

[Doug B]

Bush owners are making the same mistake I made with LT. You need to have patience. He will pay off in the long run.

Didn't Tomlinson kick butt out of the box? Or am I misremembering?

 

[BigJim®]

I just don't get it. The differences between the college and pro games shouldn't be so great as to turn an 8 ypc guy in major college ball into a 2 ypc guy in the NFL. People talk about ingrained habits, instincts, impatience with blockers, etc. Whatever. What are the reasons Bush is failing at rushing in the NFL when he was so effective at USC? And could these reasons have been accutarely foretold before this year's NFL draft, just by looking at USC game tape? Does Bush have some fatal flaw that had zero effect on his college game, but all the effect in the world on his pro prospects?

Until this guy is the focus of the offense and is getting 15-20 carries a game consistently over a period of time, I don't think any conclusions can be made of what his success as a rusher will be in the NFL.

Why do folks keep using this excuse? He isn't the only back splitting carries (not even the only rookie), and he get's plenty of chances in the passing game. Bush has been a dissapointment so far but he is only a rookie and can still get better. I just wish folks would stop making excuses for his production so far, and stop trying to inflate his impact. Just call a spade a spade.

no need to be racist.

FYI- "Call a spade a spade" can be traced back as far as ancient Greece and more modernly is derived from an 1800 English saying "Call a spade a bloody shovel."

 

[EdwardCat]

Bush owners are making the same mistake I made with LT. You need to have patience. He will pay off in the long run.

Didn't Tomlinson kick butt out of the box? Or am I misremembering?

I'm talking about how I panicked regarding LT's poor output (for him) over the first few games of the season. Yes, LT kicked butt. He had 100 yards and 2 TDs in his first game.

 

[John Mamula]

I just don't get it. The differences between the college and pro games shouldn't be so great as to turn an 8 ypc guy in major college ball into a 2 ypc guy in the NFL. People talk about ingrained habits, instincts, impatience with blockers, etc. Whatever. What are the reasons Bush is failing at rushing in the NFL when he was so effective at USC? And could these reasons have been accutarely foretold before this year's NFL draft, just by looking at USC game tape? Does Bush have some fatal flaw that had zero effect on his college game, but all the effect in the world on his pro prospects?

Until this guy is the focus of the offense and is getting 15-20 carries a game consistently over a period of time, I don't think any conclusions can be made of what his success as a rusher will be in the NFL.

Why do folks keep using this excuse? He isn't the only back splitting carries (not even the only rookie), and he get's plenty of chances in the passing game. Bush has been a dissapointment so far but he is only a rookie and can still get better. I just wish folks would stop making excuses for his production so far, and stop trying to inflate his impact. Just call a spade a spade.

no need to be racist.

LOL, are you serious?

lol, no.

 

[icehouse]

I just don't get it. The differences between the college and pro games shouldn't be so great as to turn an 8 ypc guy in major college ball into a 2 ypc guy in the NFL. People talk about ingrained habits, instincts, impatience with blockers, etc. Whatever. What are the reasons Bush is failing at rushing in the NFL when he was so effective at USC? And could these reasons have been accutarely foretold before this year's NFL draft, just by looking at USC game tape? Does Bush have some fatal flaw that had zero effect on his college game, but all the effect in the world on his pro prospects?

Until this guy is the focus of the offense and is getting 15-20 carries a game consistently over a period of time, I don't think any conclusions can be made of what his success as a rusher will be in the NFL.

Why do folks keep using this excuse? He isn't the only back splitting carries (not even the only rookie), and he get's plenty of chances in the passing game. Bush has been a dissapointment so far but he is only a rookie and can still get better. I just wish folks would stop making excuses for his production so far, and stop trying to inflate his impact. Just call a spade a spade.

no need to be racist.

FYI- "Call a spade a spade" can be traced back as far as ancient Greece and more modernly is derived from an 1800 English saying "Call a spade a bloody shovel."

Interesting....news to me. So what race is being bashed by saying that statement? I guess it's kinda like saying "Indian giver"?

 

[Doug B]

Bush is no more than the 3rd most important off-season addition. To this point i would chalk up 1 extra win because of Bush.

... hard to rank the acquisitions, except to say that Brees is the unquestionable #1.But I think you underestimate Bush's effect on opposing D's. Even though he's not great in the rushing game, play action to Bush works EVERY time. There's always huge open areas in the middle where all of the linebackers have sold out to stack up Bush. And then sometimes opposing safeties rush up to fill the open middle of the field, and leave the corners on islands with Colston or Horn/Henderson.Put it this way -- IMHO, Marques Colston remains unknown without Reggie Bush drawing fire.

 

[icehouse]

Bush is no more than the 3rd most important off-season addition. To this point i would chalk up 1 extra win because of Bush.

... hard to rank the acquisitions, except to say that Brees is the unquestionable #1.But I think you underestimate Bush's effect on opposing D's. Even though he's not great in the rushing game, play action to Bush works EVERY time. There's always huge open areas in the middle where all of the linebackers have sold out to stack up Bush. And then sometimes opposing safeties rush up to fill the open middle of the field, and leave the corners on islands with Colston or Horn/Henderson.Put it this way -- IMHO, Marques Colston remains unknown without Reggie Bush drawing fire.

Play-action to any RB works most of the time if that RB has had success running the ball. I give Bush & the Saints credit that teams are still going for it even though Bush has sucked running the ball, but y'all make it seem like play-action doesn't work for the other teams...as in it's something special with Bush. Just put it this way...prior to this season how often have you heard another RB getting credit for a team falling for a play-action pass?

 

[EdwardCat]

Bush is no more than the 3rd most important off-season addition. To this point i would chalk up 1 extra win because of Bush.

... hard to rank the acquisitions, except to say that Brees is the unquestionable #1.But I think you underestimate Bush's effect on opposing D's. Even though he's not great in the rushing game, play action to Bush works EVERY time. There's always huge open areas in the middle where all of the linebackers have sold out to stack up Bush. And then sometimes opposing safeties rush up to fill the open middle of the field, and leave the corners on islands with Colston or Horn/Henderson.Put it this way -- IMHO, Marques Colston remains unknown without Reggie Bush drawing fire.

Very good. It is amazing that Colston can still remain unheralded given his output. New Orleans has an insane amount of talent. Bush seems like icing on the cake at this point. Everyone else is the substance. Bush will continue to work his way in and be indispensable.

 

[guderian]

Bush is no more than the 3rd most important off-season addition. To this point i would chalk up 1 extra win because of Bush.

... hard to rank the acquisitions, except to say that Brees is the unquestionable #1.But I think you underestimate Bush's effect on opposing D's. Even though he's not great in the rushing game, play action to Bush works EVERY time. There's always huge open areas in the middle where all of the linebackers have sold out to stack up Bush. And then sometimes opposing safeties rush up to fill the open middle of the field, and leave the corners on islands with Colston or Horn/Henderson.Put it this way -- IMHO, Marques Colston remains unknown without Reggie Bush drawing fire.

Play-action to any RB works most of the time if that RB has had success running the ball. I give Bush & the Saints credit that teams are still going for it even though Bush has sucked running the ball, but y'all make it seem like play-action doesn't work for the other teams...as in it's something special with Bush. Just put it this way...prior to this season how often have you heard another RB getting credit for a team falling for a play-action pass?

It's not the play action it's when they swing Bush out that he has a big impact. It's tougher to see on TV, but when they swing Bush out to one side the defense inevitably cheats to Bush--often leaving Horn, Colston, or Henderson in single coverage deeper up the field. I am a bit perplexed about why defenses are still keying on Bush given his lack of success, but it's still happening.

 

[Doug B]

Just put it this way...prior to this season how often have you heard another RB getting credit for a team falling for a play-action pass?

Quite often, actually. And there is something special about the Bush is doing it -- he's drawing attention even while not producing statwise. His reputation is doing damage in the absence of actual rushing stats. That's pretty special in my book.

It's not just play action, either. He's clearing out LBs when he goes in motion. He's drawing two defenders when he runs out into the flat. Other teams still put spies on him at times (Cleveland and GB did almost every down). When I said teams have been selling out to stop him, I mean really SELLING OUT. Like Marshall-Faulk-in-his-prime-level respect. I can't explain why it's happening, but it is.

Admittedly, the fairy tale could end as soon as the first team changes tactics on the Saints. Right now, if I were an opposing DC ... I'd dare the Saints to beat us with the run. Maybe then Payton ups the dosage of Deuce he feeds the defense? Dunno.

 

[redman]

I just don't get it. The differences between the college and pro games shouldn't be so great as to turn an 8 ypc guy in major college ball into a 2 ypc guy in the NFL. People talk about ingrained habits, instincts, impatience with blockers, etc. Whatever. What are the reasons Bush is failing at rushing in the NFL when he was so effective at USC? And could these reasons have been accutarely foretold before this year's NFL draft, just by looking at USC game tape? Does Bush have some fatal flaw that had zero effect on his college game, but all the effect in the world on his pro prospects?

Until this guy is the focus of the offense and is getting 15-20 carries a game consistently over a period of time, I don't think any conclusions can be made of what his success as a rusher will be in the NFL.

Why do folks keep using this excuse? He isn't the only back splitting carries (not even the only rookie), and he get's plenty of chances in the passing game. Bush has been a dissapointment so far but he is only a rookie and can still get better. I just wish folks would stop making excuses for his production so far, and stop trying to inflate his impact. Just call a spade a spade.

no need to be racist.

FYI- "Call a spade a spade" can be traced back as far as ancient Greece and more modernly is derived from an 1800 English saying "Call a spade a bloody shovel."

Interesting....news to me. So what race is being bashed by saying that statement? I guess it's kinda like saying "Indian giver"?

Uh, it's "Native American giver", guy.

 

[redman]

First of all I still think that Bush is going to be a very, very good RB over his career, he is just getting off to a bit of slow start rushing the ball.Why did he appear better at USC? I think the main reason is that USC was absolutely loaded with talent (especially on offense) compared to most of the teams that USC played and this lead to Bush often running through holes the size of a Mack truck; he was often to the 2nd or 3rd level of the defense before anyone laid a finger on him. That combined with his extraordinary physical talents lead to some incredible plays. With the Saints he is with a team that is pretty good on offense but the Saints (especially the O-Line) are not overwhelmingly more talented than the teams they are playing. If the Saints can upgrade the play of their O-Line I think you will see a lot more of the "college type" results from Bush.

Lost among all the discussions last year about Leinart, Bush, White and Jarrett was the fact that that offensive line was extremely talented. They certainly made Bush, et al look better.

 

[Doug B]

Lost among all the discussions last year about Leinart, Bush, White and Jarrett was the fact that that offensive line was extremely talented. They certainly made Bush, et al look better.

Yeah ... but that O-Line couldn't possibly have added 3 or 4 ypc to Bush's totals.

 

[Pied Piper]

Bush is no more than the 3rd most important off-season addition. To this point i would chalk up 1 extra win because of Bush.

... hard to rank the acquisitions, except to say that Brees is the unquestionable #1.But I think you underestimate Bush's effect on opposing D's. Even though he's not great in the rushing game, play action to Bush works EVERY time. There's always huge open areas in the middle where all of the linebackers have sold out to stack up Bush. And then sometimes opposing safeties rush up to fill the open middle of the field, and leave the corners on islands with Colston or Horn/Henderson.

Put it this way -- IMHO, Marques Colston remains unknown without Reggie Bush drawing fire.

Going to a bit of extremes here. Ever hear of Deuce? The playaction works just as well when he is in the backfield.

 

[TwinTurbo]

I also think Bush is going to be a Pro Bowl player someday. But keep in mind that even J.J. Arrington put up better rushing numbers than Bush in the Pac 10 his Senior year. Both of these guys had well over 2000+ all purpose yds and 15 rushing TD's in their Senior year. But sometimes college stats just don't mean anything.

I still can't believe what a bust Mike Williams has turned out to be. I thought that guy was a lock with the talent that he displayed at USC. He was a Randy Moss like freak. But it never translated to the pros.

It's way to early to pass judgement on Bush. He has already shown the best pass catching skills of any rookie RB that I can remember. Hopefully his running skills will translate to the Pro game eventually.

 

[Doug B]

Going to a bit of extremes here. Ever hear of Deuce? The playaction works just as well when he is in the backfield.

... maybe. I won't concede that just yet. I haven't broken down game tape to tell one way or the other.But think about it: Deuce actually has rushing stats to be wary of. Play action is supposed to work with him on the field. But then he's pulled on 3rd down, and Bush is the one creating space for everyone else.

Again, I say that it's crazy the way Bush's reputation is making him an effective decoy. But it is

 

[icehouse]

Going to a bit of extremes here. Ever hear of Deuce? The playaction works just as well when he is in the backfield.

... maybe. I won't concede that just yet. I haven't broken down game tape to tell one way or the other.But think about it: Deuce actually has rushing stats to be wary of. Play action is supposed to work with him on the field. But then he's pulled on 3rd down, and Bush is the one creating space for everyone else.

Again, I say that it's crazy the way Bush's reputation is making him an effective decoy. But it is

So you are ok with his biggest impact being as a decoy? Is that honestly what you expected when y'all drafted him?

 

[fsufan]

Bush owners are making the same mistake I made with LT. You need to have patience. He will pay off in the long run.

this is so important in dynasty leagues

 

[Eraser]

Bush is no more than the 3rd most important off-season addition. To this point i would chalk up 1 extra win because of Bush.

... hard to rank the acquisitions, except to say that Brees is the unquestionable #1.But I think you underestimate Bush's effect on opposing D's. Even though he's not great in the rushing game, play action to Bush works EVERY time. There's always huge open areas in the middle where all of the linebackers have sold out to stack up Bush. And then sometimes opposing safeties rush up to fill the open middle of the field, and leave the corners on islands with Colston or Horn/Henderson.Put it this way -- IMHO, Marques Colston remains unknown without Reggie Bush drawing fire.

I forgot about Colston...thanks for the reminder!I would rank it:1. Drew Brees2. Sean Payton3. Marques Colston4. Reggie Bush

 

[cr8f]

He still isn't patient. He needs to wait for holes to open and needs to stop dancing behind the LOS. Sometimes that is a hard thing to learn. Wait and then explode straight through.

 

[azcards33]

The Pac-10 = Defense

Jerome Harrison

J.J. Arrington

Reggie Bush will be alright, but extremely overrated coming out of college

 

[DrJ]

Bush owners are making the same mistake I made with LT. You need to have patience. He will pay off in the long run.

Didn't Tomlinson kick butt out of the box? Or am I misremembering?

I'm talking about how I panicked regarding LT's poor output (for him) over the first few games of the season. Yes, LT kicked butt. He had 100 yards and 2 TDs in his first game.

On 36 carries.... a 3.13 average.Tomlinson averaged 3.6 YPC his rookie season. He was a productive fantasy player out of the box, because he got 339 carries that season. I wouldn't say he was a superstar RB out of the box.The most carries Bush has gotten in a game this season has been 14. In the games that season where Tomlinson got 14 carries or less in his rookie year he did the following:13 carries for 31 yards and 1 TD.14 carries for 75 yards and 0 TD.14 carries for 38 yards and 0 TD.Not exactly terrific.Through 8 games, Tomlinson had 181 carries. More than Bush is on pace to get for this entire season. It's just impossible to make a comparison between these two because of that...

 

[nortobc]

I've been saying this for years. If he played in the SEC, he would not have such an extensive "highlight" film. You can't dance around in the SEC. RBs have to make quick decisions and cut up field when given any daylight. This is why SEC RBs usually do well in the NFL. SEC defenses are like NFL defenses...big and fast.

 

[Dancing Bear]

Good Grief ...

Comparing Reggie Bush to LT2 is simply ridiculous.

In 2001, LT2 finished in the Top 10 of RB's in his first year over the season with standard Fantasy scoring.

Bush isn't in the Top 40!

Bush is averaging 2.5 ypc. Deuce is averaging 4.4 ypc.

Bush is averaging 6.8 ypr. Deuce is averaging 6.4 ypc.

Decoy, schmecoy.

I certainly don't wish Bush any ill-fated injury, but his hype has about run its course.

Comparing him to Tiki is ridiculous too.

Firstly, Tiki did not come into the league with anywhere near the type of hype as Bush, and for reference he was drafted in the 2nd round ...

Secondly, Tiki outperformed Bush with a 3.8 ypc and a 8.8 ypr in his first year, and Tiki had more yards from scrimmage per game played while he shared the backfield with two other RB's.

The NFL is not the PAC and Reggie has not figured out how to run in the NFL. He averaging nearly 50% of his rushing touches with 1 yard or less [including minus carries]. Deuce is at only 26% behind the same line, same system, etc.

 

[WhoDat]

Bush is no more than the 3rd most important off-season addition. To this point i would chalk up 1 extra win because of Bush.

... hard to rank the acquisitions, except to say that Brees is the unquestionable #1.But I think you underestimate Bush's effect on opposing D's. Even though he's not great in the rushing game, play action to Bush works EVERY time. There's always huge open areas in the middle where all of the linebackers have sold out to stack up Bush. And then sometimes opposing safeties rush up to fill the open middle of the field, and leave the corners on islands with Colston or Horn/Henderson.Put it this way -- IMHO, Marques Colston remains unknown without Reggie Bush drawing fire.

I forgot about Colston...thanks for the reminder!I would rank it:1. Drew Brees2. Sean Payton3. Marques Colston4. Reggie Bush

I would rank it PaytonBushBreesColstonIn no way is that ranking knocking anyone. Colston is logging receptions and yards at a rookie record rate. However, I think Payton's ability to deploy Bush on the field is the cause of Brees and Colston's success. Bush is making that great of an impact, as defenses have no choice but to account for him and all he can do. Payton has been very impressive thus far with that offense and using the talent he had available. As far as Bush and runnning in the NFL, there really is that large of a difference between Saturday and Sunday talent. My feeling is that it has little or nothing to do with athletic conference association. If that was the case, you would never see a player like the aforementioned Colston appear. If you can play, then you can play. Bush can play. It appears, though, he is very stubborn and is going to have to learn on his own, which will be the hard way, that he is rarely going to waltz to and or around the edge. He is not that much faster than Sunday edge defenders or defensive backs. He is missing holes and or cut backs that are available to him. The kid has to start taking the ball inside between the tackles. I give Payton credit for sticking with Bush and calling his number. It would be very easy for Payton to quit handing Bush the football, while keeping him highly active in the passing game. Despite the slight learning curve Payton continues to give Bush opportunities. It will come in time. Those people dumping Bush in dynasty leagues will be sorry over the next 24-40 games. The more I think about it the more I think Payton deserves much more credit than he is currently getting for having that team where they currently reside.

 

[Doug B]

So you are ok with his biggest impact being as a decoy? Is that honestly what you expected when y'all drafted him?

Only as long as opposing D's don't adjust ... but they will eventually (right?). Meanwhile, I'll take the wins.And no, of course not -- I was expecting Marshall Faulk Part 2,

 

[EdwardCat]

Bush owners are making the same mistake I made with LT. You need to have patience. He will pay off in the long run.

Didn't Tomlinson kick butt out of the box? Or am I misremembering?

I'm talking about how I panicked regarding LT's poor output (for him) over the first few games of the season. Yes, LT kicked butt. He had 100 yards and 2 TDs in his first game.

On 36 carries.... a 3.13 average.Tomlinson averaged 3.6 YPC his rookie season. He was a productive fantasy player out of the box, because he got 339 carries that season. I wouldn't say he was a superstar RB out of the box.The most carries Bush has gotten in a game this season has been 14. In the games that season where Tomlinson got 14 carries or less in his rookie year he did the following:13 carries for 31 yards and 1 TD.14 carries for 75 yards and 0 TD.14 carries for 38 yards and 0 TD.Not exactly terrific.Through 8 games, Tomlinson had 181 carries. More than Bush is on pace to get for this entire season. It's just impossible to make a comparison between these two because of that...

You misread. I'm not making a comparison of their rookie years. Please reread. BTW, Tomlinson was the #7 back his rookie year. I'd call that pretty good.

 

[Doug B]

Bush is making that great of an impact, as defenses have no choice but to account for him and all he can do.

Now, see, the opposing defenses do have a choice -- they can play the Saints' offense straight even when Bush is on the field. I don't see evidence that Bush can run on a base NFL defense -- no need for spies or 8-in-the-box.If I were Bill Cowher, I'd be wanting to make Reggie Bush beat us, and instead sell out to sack Brees. In fact, I bet that's what the Steelers do.

 

[WhoDat]

Bush is making that great of an impact, as defenses have no choice but to account for him and all he can do.

Now, see, the opposing defenses do have a choice -- they can play the Saints' offense straight even when Bush is on the field. I don't see evidence that Bush can run on a base NFL defense -- no need for spies or 8-in-the-box.If I were Bill Cowher, I'd be wanting to make Reggie Bush beat us, and instead sell out to sack Brees. In fact, I bet that's what the Steelers do.

At that point you audible...walk Bush out into the slot...and see how the defense responds. Either Bush is going to have a scary one on one match-up in space or you'll have a decent man on man match-up at either WR or TE position, as someone else moves to help the LB or S drawing Bush. Brees is smart enough that he'll find the open man or easy read & throw.

 

[DrJ]

Bush owners are making the same mistake I made with LT. You need to have patience. He will pay off in the long run.

Didn't Tomlinson kick butt out of the box? Or am I misremembering?

I'm talking about how I panicked regarding LT's poor output (for him) over the first few games of the season. Yes, LT kicked butt. He had 100 yards and 2 TDs in his first game.

On 36 carries.... a 3.13 average.Tomlinson averaged 3.6 YPC his rookie season. He was a productive fantasy player out of the box, because he got 339 carries that season. I wouldn't say he was a superstar RB out of the box.

The most carries Bush has gotten in a game this season has been 14. In the games that season where Tomlinson got 14 carries or less in his rookie year he did the following:

13 carries for 31 yards and 1 TD.

14 carries for 75 yards and 0 TD.

14 carries for 38 yards and 0 TD.

Not exactly terrific.

Through 8 games, Tomlinson had 181 carries. More than Bush is on pace to get for this entire season. It's just impossible to make a comparison between these two because of that...

BTW, Tomlinson was the #7 back his rookie year. I'd call that pretty good.

And I specifically said that he was a productive fantasy player out of the box, so I don't understand what you're trying to say that I already haven't. It was largely because he got 339 carries and not because he was so dominating every time he touched the ball. 3.6 YPC isn't good....those are Lamar Smith 2000 numbers.

 

[EdwardCat]

Bush owners are making the same mistake I made with LT. You need to have patience. He will pay off in the long run.

Didn't Tomlinson kick butt out of the box? Or am I misremembering?

I'm talking about how I panicked regarding LT's poor output (for him) over the first few games of the season. Yes, LT kicked butt. He had 100 yards and 2 TDs in his first game.

On 36 carries.... a 3.13 average.Tomlinson averaged 3.6 YPC his rookie season. He was a productive fantasy player out of the box, because he got 339 carries that season. I wouldn't say he was a superstar RB out of the box.

The most carries Bush has gotten in a game this season has been 14. In the games that season where Tomlinson got 14 carries or less in his rookie year he did the following:

13 carries for 31 yards and 1 TD.

14 carries for 75 yards and 0 TD.

14 carries for 38 yards and 0 TD.

Not exactly terrific.

Through 8 games, Tomlinson had 181 carries. More than Bush is on pace to get for this entire season. It's just impossible to make a comparison between these two because of that...

BTW, Tomlinson was the #7 back his rookie year. I'd call that pretty good.

And I specifically said that he was a productive fantasy player out of the box, so I don't understand what you're trying to say that I already haven't. It was largely because he got 339 carries and not because he was so dominating every time he touched the ball. 3.6 YPC isn't good....those are Lamar Smith 2000 numbers.

I was talking about my mistake of panicking based on LT's performance earlier this year as compared to the mistake of panicking about Bush's short career. It is an issue of patience. It is not an issue of stats. It isn't that hard to understand.

 

[DrJ]

Bush owners are making the same mistake I made with LT. You need to have patience. He will pay off in the long run.

Didn't Tomlinson kick butt out of the box? Or am I misremembering?

I'm talking about how I panicked regarding LT's poor output (for him) over the first few games of the season. Yes, LT kicked butt. He had 100 yards and 2 TDs in his first game.

On 36 carries.... a 3.13 average.Tomlinson averaged 3.6 YPC his rookie season. He was a productive fantasy player out of the box, because he got 339 carries that season. I wouldn't say he was a superstar RB out of the box.

The most carries Bush has gotten in a game this season has been 14. In the games that season where Tomlinson got 14 carries or less in his rookie year he did the following:

13 carries for 31 yards and 1 TD.

14 carries for 75 yards and 0 TD.

14 carries for 38 yards and 0 TD.

Not exactly terrific.

Through 8 games, Tomlinson had 181 carries. More than Bush is on pace to get for this entire season. It's just impossible to make a comparison between these two because of that...

BTW, Tomlinson was the #7 back his rookie year. I'd call that pretty good.

And I specifically said that he was a productive fantasy player out of the box, so I don't understand what you're trying to say that I already haven't. It was largely because he got 339 carries and not because he was so dominating every time he touched the ball. 3.6 YPC isn't good....those are Lamar Smith 2000 numbers.

I was talking about my mistake of panicking based on LT's performance earlier this year as compared to the mistake of panicking about Bush's short career. It is an issue of patience. It is not an issue of stats. It isn't that hard to understand.

When someone suggested that he "came out kicking butt" his rookie season, you posted that he had 100 yards and 2 TD's in his first game to confirm that. I felt it needed to be qualified with the fact that he got 36 carries in that game and got a huge amount of carries on the season.

I'm am not now, nor have I ever been, addressing your first point in the slightest... just the perception of Tomlinson's rookie season.

 

[nola]

Bush's single biggest problem is his head. He isn't using it. It's not just rushing yardage- its on receptions and returns too. This guy just will not stop running side to side and backwards. He has plenty of talent, but until he learns take a 5 yard gain instead of losing 3 while trying to turn it into 50, he isn't going to improve.

 

[Riffraff]

Something I wrote elsewhere:

Bush causes mismatches in the secondary. He does help NO win games this year by the respect he's given.

That said, next year the NFL will have film on him and will spot trends in his tendencies and the plays that use him as decoys.

The "out of position" players do make a difference, but not normally long term (years).

Can't blame the offensive line for poor blocking when he runs. He was a guy that was drafted because he could evade capture with his moves, speed, and innovation.

Seems to be more like Eric Bienemy than he is to LaDainian Tomlinson. Sorry for the Chargers' reference, but look at Bienemy's college and pro careers:

University of Colorado

He was heavily recruited out of high school and chose the University of Colorado. Bieniemy's footprints are all over the CU record book, as he remains the school's all-time leader in rushing (3,940 yards), all-purpose yards (4,351), touchdowns (42) and scoring (254 points). He was the nation's second leading rusher in 1990 with 1,628 yards, along with 17 touchdowns, when he finished third in the Heisman Trophy balloting that year behind BYU's Ty Detmer (the winner) and Notre Dame's Raghib Ismail.

In 1990, he earned unanimous All-America honors. He was a two-time first-team all Big-Eight performer, in 1988 and in 1990, earning the conference's offensive player-of-the-year honor as a senior. As a junior, he was named to CU's prestigious 25-member "All-Century Football Team," the only active player at the time to be selected to the group honoring the first 100 years of Colorado Buffalo football.

NFL

Bienemy's success in college did not translate into the professional ranks. He played from 1991 til 1999, finishing his career with 1589 yards rushing, 1223 yards receiving, 276 yards returning punts, 1,621 yards on kickoff returns, and 12 touchdowns (11 receiving and 1 kickoff return) while paying for the San Diego Chargers, Cincinnati Bengals and Philadelphia Eagles.

......

Bush better learn to run the ball as an NFL RB by next year. Otherwise he'll just be that gimmicky guy that teams will soon ignore when they see the trends. And by gimmicky, I mean he's playing outside his position, not that he's a freak of nature.

Tough to find gimmick players in the Hall of Fame. The freaks of nature endure though.

Others started mentioning Metcalf and other comparables to Bienemy. I do think Bush is closer to this type of player than the workhorse back many thought he should be.