What active player has had the best career? (1 Viewer)

[DoubleG]

FWIW I'm pleasantly surprised to see Ray-Ray leading this. IMO he's top 3 for sure along with Favre and Peyton, although I think Dawkins is close. I do wonder how many Peyton / Favre would have voted the other above Ray.

No you're not - you tainted the voting with the thread subtitle. Suggestion is powerful. Don't you have a taste for a yummy doughnut?

 

[FUBAR]

FWIW I'm pleasantly surprised to see Ray-Ray leading this. IMO he's top 3 for sure along with Favre and Peyton, although I think Dawkins is close. I do wonder how many Peyton / Favre would have voted the other above Ray.

No you're not - you tainted the voting with the thread subtitle. Suggestion is powerful. Don't you have a taste for a yummy doughnut?

Get out of my head! I'm eating a Boston creme from Dunkin' Donuts right now.

 

[bostonfred]

Wow, that's an awfully long time spent crafting an argument that can be refuted in five simple words:

Four Time Most Valuable Player.

First, we'll need to start with you choosing a subjective award as your primary barometer of individual success. Because if it easily "refutes" all the stuff I wrote out, you're claiming that you believe that the regular season award is a more important barometer of individual success than statistics, win-loss records, Superbowl titles, or other metrics. I'm confused at your methodology for choosing which subjective award to use. First, how did you decide to use regular season MVP? Why not Superbowl MVP? Brady outstrips Manning in Superbowl MVPs, for example, and while that award is every bit as subjective, at least it doesn't get decided before the postseason finishes. The "MVP" award has a natural bias towards players who do well in the regular season regardless of playoff success. Do you feel that playoff success is unnecessary for the player with the "best career"?

Take a look, for example, at 2003, when Manning shared the MVP award with Steve McNair (and I question the legitimacy of the award as an argument if they can just say, oh well, you both win it). If this is the premier accomplishment of a quarterback in the league, and your barometer for determining who had the best career, then you seem to be saying that Manning and McNair had the best seasons in the league that year - and not Brady, who beat both of them in the playoffs en route to a Superbowl victory and the Superbowl MVP title.

But that should be no surprise, since you probably know that Manning never won a Superbowl in a year in which he was named MVP. Those four playoff exits included a game with four INTs, a game where he led his team to three total points, their loss to the Chargers, and their Superbowl loss this past year.

But if you want to use the MVP award as a barometer of career success, then you must believe that all of that stuff is irrelevant. If we're talking about the player who has had the best career, then all you need to do is show me where a player has said that their goal for this season is to win the MVP award. Or, if you can't do that, just show me the interview after the award where they said that this was their goal. It should be fairly straightforward for you to show somebody - maybe not Manning because he's all bashful - but really anybody at all ever saying in the history of ever that the goal of the season is to win that award. For you to make the MVP award your definition of career success, surely you can point out that it's the measurement that the players use to define their success, or that it is in any way their obective to win one.

Well I guess you think that Shockey was the best TE in the league last year since he is the only starting TE that met his goal for the season last year? OR that Bradshaw to date had a better career than Brady...come on now Brady only has three rings

If you're going to use a cliched retort like this, please use it in response to the right cliched argument. I'm not saying "Brady is better than Manning because he won more Superbowls". And I don't think you'll find me saying that, either, because I believe there are many more objective criteria by which to show that Brady is the better player. I was refuting SSOG's point that a valid criteria for "what player has had the best career" would be "which player had the most MVPs". Brady, Manning, and Favre have all been named MVP (although Manning has the most MVP awards), and all have won a Superbowl (although Brady is the only one with multiple Superbowl rings). If you asked them about the highlights of their career, how far down the list would "being named MVP" be compared to their other accomplishments? Do you think Manning would trade his MVP award in 2004 to have been able to win the Superbowl that year? Or even just to score more than an unthinkable 3 points in the Colts' playoff loss to New England, after throwing for 49 TDs during the regular season? When we talk about "best career", it seems unreasonable to use a criteria that the players themsevles would disagree with.

 

[SSOG]

If you're going to use a cliched retort like this, please use it in response to the right cliched argument. I'm not saying "Brady is better than Manning because he won more Superbowls". And I don't think you'll find me saying that, either, because I believe there are many more objective criteria by which to show that Brady is the better player. I was refuting SSOG's point that a valid criteria for "what player has had the best career" would be "which player had the most MVPs". Brady, Manning, and Favre have all been named MVP (although Manning has the most MVP awards), and all have won a Superbowl (although Brady is the only one with multiple Superbowl rings). If you asked them about the highlights of their career, how far down the list would "being named MVP" be compared to their other accomplishments? Do you think Manning would trade his MVP award in 2004 to have been able to win the Superbowl that year? Or even just to score more than an unthinkable 3 points in the Colts' playoff loss to New England, after throwing for 49 TDs during the regular season? When we talk about "best career", it seems unreasonable to use a criteria that the players themsevles would disagree with.

If you ask the players, they might say that. They might not. They might say it on a year-by-year basis, but not mean it on a career-long basis. You don't know, you're not an elite professional football player and first ballot HoF lock. And even if they really, really meant it... there's a difference between "the most satisfactory career" or "the most preferable career" and "the best career". I suppose if they'd really trade everything for a SB Ring, then Adam Vinatieri had a more preferable career than Tom Brady. I mean, Tom Brady would trade it all- the MVP, Giselle, everything- for that extra ring, right? And Charles Haley had a more preferable career than Reggie White... but Reggie White still had the best career of any DE (unless you're a Bruce Smith or Deacon Jones fan, of course).There is an entity currently set up whose purpose is to judge how good a player's career is. That entity is the Pro Football Hall of Fame selection committee. In the committee's eyes, rings are obviously very important... but they're not the be-all, end-all. Charles Haley has 5 SB Rings (plus 5 pro bowls and 2 first team AP All Pros, meaning he was an actual contributor and not a coattail-rider), yet he has never really gotten serious Hall consideration (and probably never will). On the other hand, if there was ever a player who had 5 league MVP awards, I guarantee you that he'd be viewed as a first-ballot HoFer. Absolutely no question at all in my mind. From that perspective, it seems that the HoF selection committee, that body of experienced football observers whose sole goal is to judge the merit of a player's career, would weigh an MVP award much more heavily than a SB Ring when judging who had the best career.

 

[ravnzfan]

There are plenty of people who think that Peyton Manning will ultimately be judged as the best QB of all time and thus arguably the best player of all time. I don't think anyone thinks Ray Lewis will ultimately be judged as the best LB of all time, much less the best player of all time. And I think most everyone would agree that QB is a more important position to a team than LB.

No way Ray Lewis has had a better career than Manning. Or Brady. Or Favre.

It may only be among younger fans and those without a great sense of the history of the NFL, but I think there's a large group of people who will think Lewis is the greatest linebacker ever.

Well, it's possible those who think Manning will be the best will be right, or at least have a very strong argument. I don't think the same can be said of Lewis. Without looking into it in detail, I don't see a good rationale for ranking Lewis above (in no particular order) Lawrence Taylor, Mike Singletary, **** Butkus, or Jack Lambert.

then you have to include Jim Brown, Walter Payton, Johnny U, Joe Montana et al in the conversation w/Brady, Manning + Farvewhile not spelled out, the list seemed to me to include players whose careers were heavily spent in the 2000's--I could be wrong--but let's not get too torqued up over such a subjective conversation...seriously

the most important position---by far---on any football team is the QB...generally speaking, a team can not sustain any success long term w/o a QB playing @a consistently high level

"best player" "best career" "most valuable"....call it what you may...has to heavily include the most successful signal callers of their day---this list did not include best all-time, only those that reached their pinnacle this decade

"the best" LB list---ever--starts w/LT...the other 4 middle/inside LB's mentioned were tough SOB's for sure that could influence/dominate a game

but Taylor changed the way a postion was played, and no one has done it better since

 

[ookook]

Perhaps Jerry Rice might warrant mention over someone like Westbrook? No offense to Westie...but is an odd list.

 

[SSOG]

Perhaps Jerry Rice might warrant mention over someone like Westbrook? No offense to Westie...but is an odd list.

Was Jerry Rice active last season?

 

[FUBAR]

There are plenty of people who think that Peyton Manning will ultimately be judged as the best QB of all time and thus arguably the best player of all time. I don't think anyone thinks Ray Lewis will ultimately be judged as the best LB of all time, much less the best player of all time. And I think most everyone would agree that QB is a more important position to a team than LB.

No way Ray Lewis has had a better career than Manning. Or Brady. Or Favre.

It may only be among younger fans and those without a great sense of the history of the NFL, but I think there's a large group of people who will think Lewis is the greatest linebacker ever.

Well, it's possible those who think Manning will be the best will be right, or at least have a very strong argument. I don't think the same can be said of Lewis. Without looking into it in detail, I don't see a good rationale for ranking Lewis above (in no particular order) Lawrence Taylor, Mike Singletary, **** Butkus, or Jack Lambert.

then you have to include Jim Brown, Walter Payton, Johnny U, Joe Montana et al in the conversation w/Brady, Manning + Farvewhile not spelled out, the list seemed to me to include players whose careers were heavily spent in the 2000's--I could be wrong--but let's not get too torqued up over such a subjective conversation...seriously

the most important position---by far---on any football team is the QB...generally speaking, a team can not sustain any success long term w/o a QB playing @a consistently high level

"best player" "best career" "most valuable"....call it what you may...has to heavily include the most successful signal callers of their day---this list did not include best all-time, only those that reached their pinnacle this decade

"the best" LB list---ever--starts w/LT...the other 4 middle/inside LB's mentioned were tough SOB's for sure that could influence/dominate a game

but Taylor changed the way a postion was played, and no one has done it better since

I didn't even realize I didn't state it plainly, although I did say through 2009 implying that (I thought). Just kind of took the "Active" part for granted.

 

[Tau837]

There are plenty of people who think that Peyton Manning will ultimately be judged as the best QB of all time and thus arguably the best player of all time. I don't think anyone thinks Ray Lewis will ultimately be judged as the best LB of all time, much less the best player of all time. And I think most everyone would agree that QB is a more important position to a team than LB.

No way Ray Lewis has had a better career than Manning. Or Brady. Or Favre.

It may only be among younger fans and those without a great sense of the history of the NFL, but I think there's a large group of people who will think Lewis is the greatest linebacker ever.

Well, it's possible those who think Manning will be the best will be right, or at least have a very strong argument. I don't think the same can be said of Lewis. Without looking into it in detail, I don't see a good rationale for ranking Lewis above (in no particular order) Lawrence Taylor, Mike Singletary, **** Butkus, or Jack Lambert.

then you have to include Jim Brown, Walter Payton, Johnny U, Joe Montana et al in the conversation w/Brady, Manning + Farvewhile not spelled out, the list seemed to me to include players whose careers were heavily spent in the 2000's--I could be wrong--but let's not get too torqued up over such a subjective conversation...seriously

the most important position---by far---on any football team is the QB...generally speaking, a team can not sustain any success long term w/o a QB playing @a consistently high level

"best player" "best career" "most valuable"....call it what you may...has to heavily include the most successful signal callers of their day---this list did not include best all-time, only those that reached their pinnacle this decade

"the best" LB list---ever--starts w/LT...the other 4 middle/inside LB's mentioned were tough SOB's for sure that could influence/dominate a game

but Taylor changed the way a postion was played, and no one has done it better since

1. No, I don't need to include Brown, Payton, Unitas, or Montana. They weren't active last season.2. Who's torqued up?

3. This list does include 3 of the best QBs of all time, because 3 of the best QBs of all time happened to be active last year.

4. Agree about the importance of QBs and with your LB comments.

 

[drew726]

honorable mention for Lorenzo Neal?