What do you look for in a stud LB? (1 Viewer)

[NorrisB]

Granted Ive only played IDP for a year, but my understanding is that LBs are the most favorable for positions go like this

MLB

WLB

WILB - for 3-4 also called RILB and its generally the most coveted position in a 3-4 defense.

SILB - 3-4

SLB

How do you rank the various systems for producing LBs. Like the Tampa 2, Jim Johnson defense, D. Lebeau etc.. is it better top be attacking or conservative?

 

[Zoomanji]

Well, you left out OLBs in a 3-4

Which, depending on your scoring system can be very valuable.

Not sure how to answer you question though.

I am for MLBs first then WLBs in Tampa 2s, then some ILBs in 3-4s. I disregard 3-4 OLBs in all my leagues because we are tackle heavy.

Lebeau runs a 3-4 and Farrior was the only LB (ILB) that was a factor in my leagues. Jim Johnson LBs were a disappointment for the most part.

 

[Jene Bramel]

1. Talent

You'll see a Ronald McKinnon or Danny Clark or Jay Foreman have a decent 1-2 year run, but it's extremely rare to find a consistent top ten linebacker with replacement level talent. You want a scouting report that reads like it's searching for flaws. You want a player with instincts, playing speed, range, tackling skill and coverage ability. To me, talent is more important than scheme when you're looking for a top five backer. Look at the top ten rankings over the past five seasons. It's a Who's Who of LB talent. A good scheme and situation can get a so-so talent into a nice ranking, but it's extraordinarily rare to find a consistently top performing LB without top talent.

2. Scheme

If it wasn't obvious how strongly I felt before I began the Discussing Defensive Schemes series last week, it should be now. It's critical to have a basic knowledge of defensive schemes and responsibilities to make sense of the number of potentials every year. It's how you know when to buy low and when to sell high on Cato June. It's how you comfortably rank DJ Williams and Patrick Willis in high places. It helps to know why the Tampa-2 WLB tends to have better numbers than his other 4-3 WLB colleagues or why a 1-gap ILB is a better option than a 2-gap ILB or the likely ramifications when a team switches to a 'Miami' style 4-3 from a Cover-2 leaning 4-3 as Denver did last year. Generally speaking, gap attacking schemes are better than read-and-react schemes. However, don't confuse "blitz happy" with "gap attack". In a hypothetical situation where two MLBs have the same talent and surrounding cast, I'd rather have the "less aggressive" 'Miami' MLB than the "more aggressive" Jim Johnson MLB.

3. Situation and surrounding cast

It's also important to know how much opportunity a linebacker is likely to get. Is he surrounding by a bunch of goofballs that can't tackle? Does he have a couple of stud DTs that will keep him clean to make tackles? Does he have a stud WLB or SS or set of corners that will siphon run support tackles? Does he play in the nickel? Is he a WLB that's given more coverage responsibilities than his SLB? Does he play in a scheme that uses a lot of run blitzes or delayed blitzes on nickel downs? Talent can overcome opportunity, but it sure is nice to find a situation where the scheme and surrounding cast are favorable as well -- see DeMeco Ryans, Patrick Willis, Zach Thomas, etc.

To get extremely specific, with the right combination of 1 and 3 above, here's a (cringe) default tiering system to use by scheme....

Strong LB1 Upside: 4-3 MLB, 1-gap 3-4 WILB

Low LB1 Upside: Tampa-2 WLB

LB2 Upside: Non T2 4-3 WLB, 2-gap 3-4 RILB

Low LB2 Upside: 3-4 SILB**, 4-3 SLB

(**For reasons I'm still perseverating over, the LILB in the Belichick hybrids has had Low LB1 upside in recent seasons.)

A perfect storm of circumstances (talent, scheme, opportunity) can bump any player up a tier (or two). A strong blemish in any of the above three categories can bump a player down a tier (or two).

If you're looking for a true stud backer for a dynasty window, you need well above average talent and a solid scheme. Surrounding cast considerations help, but a talented player in the right scheme can overcome many of those considerations.

 

[BearsFan]

Also, in 4-3 variants, teams such as TEN, SEA interchange their WLBs and SLBs which can lead to some decent upside on the strong side.

 

[NorrisB]

Whats the difference between a 2 gap and a 1 gap 3-4.

Which of these defenses uses a 1 or 2 gap 3-4

Browns

NE

Jets

Pitt

SD

Arizona

SF ---> Not sure what kind of defense this is

 

[Jene Bramel]

Whats the difference between a 2 gap and a 1 gap 3-4.Which of these defenses uses a 1 or 2 gap 3-4Browns NEJetsPittSDArizonaSF ---> Not sure what kind of defense this is

Refers to how many gaps each defensive lineman is responsible for on the line. 1-gap 3-4 defenses behave very much like 4-3 defenses. With the exception of Bill Parcells, who may use his "true" 2-gap 3-4 in Miami, every current 3-4 defense plays some amount of 1-gap technique on the line. Wade Phillips (and his proteges) use 1-gap techniques almost exclusively -- that's DAL, SD and SF. The others are harder to pin down -- especially the multiple front groups like ARI and NE. None of them are as safe a bets as the Phillips group though. Dallas and San Diego would look better if their WILB played in every nickel package. Unfortunately, Patrick Willis is the only every down 1-gap WILB right now.The 4th thread in the discussing defensive schemes series will break the 1-gap/2-gap differences down further. There was a discussion in the 1st thread (IDP 101) about defensive line techniques if you're interested in the details.

 

[carlos1984]

OK

we know about LB, but what about DB and DL ? which is the system that can help us ???

DB -- Tampa CB ??

DL -- 4-3 DE ??

 

[Benchwarmers]

So would you consider EJ Henderson MLB Vikings a stud?

 

[Jene Bramel]

OKwe know about LB, but what about DB and DL ? which is the system that can help us ???DB -- Tampa CB ??DL -- 4-3 DE ??

DB: There's no real system here. Teams that use a lot of Cover-2 will often produce useful corners. But it's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy -- those teams are looking for the type of corners who are usually productive in the box scores. More physical and willing to support the run and who have good coverage instincts and ball skills. Safeties are becoming more and more interchangeable. Gone are the days of in-the-box SS and centerfielding FS. So you're looking for the same characteristics you see in corners -- run support and ball skills. If the team puts one safety in the box more frequently than the other, that's nice to know, too.DL: Very dependent on scoring system. In many leagues, you may as well cross the majority of the defensive tackles and 3-4 ends of your list entirely. In others, 3-4 ends and NT are very viable options. In all systems, however, your studs are going to be 4-3 ends that can rush and play the run well (Allen, Kampman, Suggs, etal) and 4-3 UT who are skilled enough to play the run on the way to the passer (recently Coleman, Holliday, etc).

 

[Rozelle]

OK

we know about LB, but what about DB and DL ? which is the system that can help us ???

DB -- Tampa CB ??

DL -- 4-3 DE ??

DB: There's no real system here. Teams that use a lot of Cover-2 will often produce useful corners. But it's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy -- those teams are looking for the type of corners who are usually productive in the box scores. More physical and willing to support the run and who have good coverage instincts and ball skills. Safeties are becoming more and more interchangeable. Gone are the days of in-the-box SS and centerfielding FS. So you're looking for the same characteristics you see in corners -- run support and ball skills. If the team puts one safety in the box more frequently than the other, that's nice to know, too.DL: Very dependent on scoring system. In many leagues, you may as well cross the majority of the defensive tackles and 3-4 ends of your list entirely. In others, 3-4 ends and NT are very viable options. In all systems, however, your studs are going to be 4-3 ends that can rush and play the run well (Allen, Kampman, Suggs, etal) and 4-3 UT who are skilled enough to play the run on the way to the passer (recently Coleman, Holliday, etc).

 

[NYCGangGreen]

So would you consider EJ Henderson MLB Vikings a stud?

I've had E.J. for 2 years running now in my Dynasty league. And while he may not classify as a "stud" he has really good upside. I look at him as a solid#2 LB, but better as a 3 with big play ability.

 

[awesomeness]

I dont watch NCAA too much, but something that i like to hear about LBs is that they make plays sideline to sideline. One thing that i find to be overvalued is coverage ability. I know its picky, but i prefer the LB to be good, but not great at LB. Being too good at coverage will cause him to miss out on tackles. The guy that immediately comes to mind is Keith Bulluck.

 

[pretender]

OK

we know about LB, but what about DB and DL ? which is the system that can help us ???

DB -- Tampa CB ??

DL -- 4-3 DE ??

DB: There's no real system here. Teams that use a lot of Cover-2 will often produce useful corners. But it's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy -- those teams are looking for the type of corners who are usually productive in the box scores. More physical and willing to support the run and who have good coverage instincts and ball skills. Safeties are becoming more and more interchangeable. Gone are the days of in-the-box SS and centerfielding FS. So you're looking for the same characteristics you see in corners -- run support and ball skills. If the team puts one safety in the box more frequently than the other, that's nice to know, too.DL: Very dependent on scoring system. In many leagues, you may as well cross the majority of the defensive tackles and 3-4 ends of your list entirely. In others, 3-4 ends and NT are very viable options. In all systems, however, your studs are going to be 4-3 ends that can rush and play the run well (Allen, Kampman, Suggs, etal) and 4-3 UT who are skilled enough to play the run on the way to the passer (recently Coleman, Holliday, etc).

Great stuff here Jene - with Coleman gone - slight highjack/fishing will Babineaux have the same success due to the position he is playing UT? Does he have the same or better talent level than Coleman. I know its always a combo of skill/athleticism/and scheme - but in Atlanta's case was Coleman a product of the scheme or was it more his skill level?

 

[Jene Bramel]

Great stuff here Jene - with Coleman gone - slight highjack/fishing will Babineaux have the same success due to the position he is playing UT? Does he have the same or better talent level than Coleman. I know its always a combo of skill/athleticism/and scheme - but in Atlanta's case was Coleman a product of the scheme or was it more his skill level?

Mike Smith didn't use a lot of dedicated UT in Jacksonville, so it's tough to say how much value Babineaux will have. My guess would be not as much as he has in the past. Coleman has plenty of talent, but playing undertackle played a role in his pass rush numbers in Atlanta.